Is it even reasonable to assume that we can regrow manufacturing jobs in this country?

[Stinky The Clown]

The wage disparity is closing. The cost to ship is increasing. We have lots of capacity here.

Might it happen in the near future that making ..... I dunno .... let's say padlocks or flashlights .... essentially lower tech manufactured goods ...... might it soon be better to manufacture them here?

Maybe even to make them in several factories located closer to markets.

Can we discuss this?

[leftofcool]

1. No. Manufacturing jobs are gone for good

It is cheaper to import goods. It would be nice if we still had them but I don't see it happening.

[Red State Rebel]

2. I will get flamed for this, but.....

Not unless there is a serious reality check among the Unions. The U.S. cannot compete when we are paying people $25.00 to put bolt A in hole B and if you eliminiate the competition, you will eliminate your market with the prices.

I'm just sayin.....

[guitar man]

7. so what should we pay people

to stand on an assembly line all day long? Not intended to be a flame, but if sub-living wages are the price to be paid for bringing back manufacturing, I'd have to say thanks but no thanks.

[Red State Rebel]

25. Who decides what is a living/sub living wage?

How much is factory work worth? I don't claim to know, but I doubt if it's worth 20+ dollars an hours. There has to be a compromise somewhere.

[ogneopasno]

32. There is a compromise.

It's the wage those workers are getting paid, which is a bargained wage.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

39. It's worth it if that's what it costs to get workers.

The whole point of "free trade" and "globalism" is to enable corporations to exploit (and in some cases practically enslave) workers. The corporations are organized against us. Why do you have a problem with workers organizing to get good wages?

[guitar man]

55. the workers need to negotiate that

and anybody who "doubts what it is worth" needs to go try it on for a while.

[Two Americas]

75. irrelevant

Management - representing those with capital - does whatever it can to squeeze out the absolute maximum they can get away with for the shareholders and investors by whatever means necessary.

You are applying a different and stricter standard to labor - those actually producing things of value - than you are to those with capital, and advocating a bias that favors the wealthy few at the expense of the productive many. That is traditionally the right wing political position on this issue.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Oh yes. An underclass of exploited workers is so vital to the economy.

:sarcasm:

[Greyhound]

78. These capitalist kool-aid consumers always ignore the implications of

their verbal diarrhea.

[Donnachaidh]

13. and what do YOU get paid?

Seriously, I love these *red State* folks with their EVIL UNION memes. Of course, they are probably business owners that feel it's perfectly OKAY for their salaries to get regular raises, while they nickel and dime their employees right into the poorhouse. :puke:

[Red State Rebel]

21. No, I'm not a business owner.... I'm realistic!

I'm an accountant and office manager for small/med business. I see real numbers every day and I know how the numbers add up.

I lived near a Chrysler plant for years and it always amazed me that local kids would get out of high school and go to work at the plant making outrageous amounts of money for what was a pretty simple job. I believe in fair pay for work, but an 18 year old making $18.00/hr plus benefits for factory work is ridiculous.

On top of that, a couple of years ago, we were at the Edward Jones Dome downtown for a Marching Band Competition and I almost fell over when I got into the elevator to go to the luxury box seats (which that day were all of $15.00 ea.) and there was a union employee (wearing her union button) sitting on a stool in the elevator to push the buttons for you. Someone please explain the necessity of this??????

When I see these things going on around me, I am very skeptical of unions.

[guitar man]

24. so how much did you make

when you worked in a factory?

[Red State Rebel]

37. I worked as an Accounting Clerk in a Factory

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, I had two years of college and was still going to school part time and made about $21,000.00/yr.

[guitar man]

53. I've worked the floor

..in manufacturing and I can tell you, it's no picnic. Until you hold an air impact all day long putting "bolt a into hole b" and have it jar the hell out of you nonstop for 8 hours, or work a cutting torch and welder burning the hell out of yourself all day, or sandblast, or run a grinder or any of the other jobs out on that floor, you have no idea what it's like, believe me. I worked both union and non-union while I was in the blue collar world, made some pretty decent money at it and I don't apologize for any of it. I earned every dime I ever got paid and then some.

There's a pretty good chance I'll have to have cataract surgery sometime before I die from welding, and my back is permanently screwed from an industrial accident. I'm one of the lucky ones that actually escaped to a pretty decent desk job as I got older, but most of my friends haven't been so lucky.

So before you blast what a factory worker makes, get out there on the floor and walk a mile in their steel toed boots, even the "nicest" plants I worked in were hot, nasty, exhausting and oftentimes dangerous. Nobody should have to do that kind of work for a pittance.

[Scout]

64. some of those jobs are not only physically difficult....

but are mind-numbingly BORING!!!! I've worked in manufacturing plants too. I'm glad now that i have a desk job ... and my area is not actually in the union, we are non-bargaining but get (generally) the same benefits as the bargaining group does.

[guitar man]

65. word

running a side grinder grinding off slag 12-14 hours a day is about as boring as it gets. :(

But, I have to say, this desk job I'm working now can be a real snooze fest too. But at least I'm sitting down in a big comfy chair in an AC enviroment. ;)

[madokie]

29. Only to you are you realistic, You're sure not to me

[Red State Rebel]

34. Then you tell me, how much is factory work worth?

If I stand on a line at the Ford plant and bolt in a car seat every few minutes with an air tool, howmuch should I make? If I have no college education and just got out of high school a few years ago, what is the the correct pay for this skill set?

[madokie]

42. LOL

Let me ask you what do you make an hour?

never mind, I'm really not interested in having a discussion with someone who holds the views that you do concerning pay, sorry.

peace
have a great day

[ogneopasno]

44. It's worth whatever the company is willing to pay after bargaining

which is what collective bargaining is all about. You seem to think the union pulls a number out of its ass and the poor, poor company rolls over and pays.

[gollygee]

50. I think you underestimate how hard the work is.

It isn't just using an air tool every few minutes. It's hectic, there are quotas, and there's a lot of physical labor involved. I have friends who work in factories and they work hard and come home exhausted.

[treestar]

56. True, one can't expect to compete when there are people willing to

do the same work for less - that is a reality Americans often fail to recognize.

We have to have cars - that's our problem. In India and China they didn't get used to having their individual vehicles, so they don't have to maintain them and can afford to do the work for less. We could get manufacturing back if we would go with mass transit and change zoning so we could get to work as easily as those in other countries.

Almost every other country has us beat on this. In Europe, they at least use smaller cars.

[Hannah Bell]

60. funny how it doesn't work that way with executive comp.

evidentally no one willing to work for less there.

you do realize that all those workers "willing to work for less" work in the supply chains for the same globacorps as here, right?

who do you think funded the "chinese economic miracle"?

there is no "them".

[treestar]

66. Executives get their compensation in fancy ways and it makes

them part of the investor class. Unless we tax them, we won't get that money. Even if we had that money, would be pay higher fees for the same work?

Even a professional can't command a higher salary than the market allows for. Just won't happen in reality.

I still say we are too expensive to hire because we have to have individual cars. Our best hope of getting competitive again is to solve that problem. Just complaining about it hasn't worked.

[Hannah Bell]

74. "investors" get what they want because they have more power, period.

the talk of the "market" determining outcomes & mandating "we" not have "individual cars" (lol) elides the question of what "the market" is & who shapes it.

you say "we" cost too much, & should futher reduce our claims on production to "compete" with other peons.

wrong.

[Hekate]

71. Here are some other questions for you: What's the cost of living where you are? What's the profit...

... at the business? How much does a worker have to make to support a family well above the poverty line?

In my region the actual hourly wage needed to get by is about $12 an hour, yet legal minimum wage is far lower. Since I read that study I now willingly pay that wage to my (very occasional) cleaning lady or yard man.

Discussions of what a living wage constitutes go back centuries, if not millennia. It figures in both Jewish and Christian religious law.

Henry Ford paid his workers quite well for assembling Model T's because, as he put it, he wanted them to be able to purchase the product themselves. You may not have noticed that high wages for auto workers never hurt the industry, which flourished for generations and made management very wealthy indeed.

I daresay Henry Ford would be disgusted at what has become of the industry he founded -- lagging in true innovation, devoted only to the profit of those at the very top, and finally crashing and burning. It was not worker's wages and benefits that brought them to this pass, but shortsighted management stupidity and greed.

I suggest reading Paul Krugman's column on a regular basis. He's really quite bright, insightful, and grounded in reality. He's even got a Nobel Prize to prove it.

Hekate

[endarkenment]

31. $18.00 - oh the horrors!

And what is your hourly rate? You still have not answered that simple question.

meanwhile executive compensation is now something like 250x worker compensation. yes indeed it is fucking unions that are the problem.

fuck me. we remain mortally stupid as a people.

[Red State Rebel]

38. I have over 20 yrs experience and make $40,000/yr.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

41. Why haven't you volunteered to take a pay cut yet?

I'm sure there's someone in another country who will gladly do your job for 1/2 what you make.

[endarkenment]

45. I'm sorry for you.

You are terribly underpaid, or you must not live in one of the major urban regions of this country, where 20.00 is just not a decent wage. I understand your bitterness, but really unions are not the problem, lack of unions are the problem. 12% of the workforce is unionized. Blaming unions is pathetic.

[Scout]

47. so you make $20/hour writing numbers in ledgers, and plugging numbers into

spreadsheets, printing reports, etc.

I think you are overpaid.

[endarkenment]

52. Plus it seems there are tons of jobs sitting in elevators for $25/hr.

[KG]

70. before she was a union worker, she was a cadillac driving welfare queen.

:eyes:

[ogneopasno]

28. I will get flamed for this, but.....

Not unless there is a serious reality check among get-rich-quick investors and opportunistic CEOs. The U.S. cannot compete when we are paying for unreasonable profit margins on moving pile of money A to account B.

It's not the unions causing problems; it's investors and backers and funders demanding profit. If I charge $5 for a widget and the guy next to me charges $6, you really think that $1 is going to the guy who made the widget? Educate yourself, Rebel.

[sandnsea]

33. Thank you n/t

[ogneopasno]

51. I love your sig graphic.

:)

[Red State Rebel]

40. I have educated myself.... n/t

[ogneopasno]

43. Yeah, you have, and still all you make is $40K/year.

nt.

[JHB]

69. Agreed. Look at how things folded

Most of the lost industrial capacity didn't cleanly lose against foreign competition. In many cases they were profitable businesses, it's just that it was decided that they weren't profitable enough, and they wanted more (and the Reagan tax cuts let them keep that "more" instead of losing a big chunk to taxes). So they sold the assets (via leveraged buy-outs and other tricks) and put their money into Wall Street and their own pockets, employees be damned.

It wasn't just foreign competition. In many places, it was deliberate scuttling of companies, as long as they got their golden parachutes.

[earth mom]

30. You are DEAD WRONG about Unions. Unions are the ONLY thing that have kept livable wages alive.

Why shouldn't someone make $25 bucks an hour? Do you even realize what $25 buys in todays economy? Not much, thats for damn sure. It's equivalent to making about $12.50 an hour in the 1980s. Which was a living wage THEN.

[KG]

68. some workers will just never understand who is really on thier side.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

35. Toyota seems to be doing OK.

Aren't they paying their American workers more than American car companies?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

46. Yeah, they figured out that whole "make cars people want to buy" thing. nt

[Finishline42]

58. Toyota doesn't have Pension costs that GM and Ford do.

Not sure how Toyota, Nissan, and Honda deal with health care costs - but pension costs which include health care is a major load for the Big 3 (2?).

Whereas Ford and GM have declining employment (just like SS, fewer employees supporting an ever growing retired pool) Toyota, Honda, and Nissan have expanding employment and are just now starting to support retirees in the US.

When a country is too good to make or grow things for themselves, you can kiss the future goodbye. When we become reliant on other countries then those prices will go up. Oil use to be cheap too.

[JCMach1]

54. Let's force companies that import to pay at least US minimum wage

to foreign workers. That would be a start.

Some jobs would flow back then as shipping costs and issues of quality would win out in some sectors.

[OnionPatch]

80. Regulation is needed, for sure.

I'm not sure about US min. wages for all, but at least taxes on cheap imports is a start. Upholding labor standards on imported goods is also key and that would mean some sort of decent living wages for all workers.

We have every right to regulate our economy to help provide jobs for our citizens. The idea that we don't is the first hurdle in the way of solving this problem.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

63. Think of the union as an essential balance to corporate power.

You are right in a way that you likely do not realize, Red State Rebel.
I am a die hard union man but *unions,* plural, are the problem in that
they were a reluctant concession (think divide and conquer) to sabotage
The Industrial Workers of the World. Only when all, worldwide, belong to
one union will market stability become reality.
------------------------------------------------
One Big Union, One Big Strike!
--I.W.W.

[Greyhound]

77. Why does this argument always ignore the rest of the equation?

In the first place, your characterization of industrial work is 40 or 50 years out of date and you apparently assume the only way to compete is on price.

Innovation and quality are where it's at and the faster we can get decision makers and their managers to get this through their tectonic-like thought processes, the better we will all be. There is no way to win the battle with the old strategies and processes, there are just too many excess billions to compete with unless you want to see Americans living in the same conditions as they do.

We are the world's innovators and, thanks to the parasites, we have to completely rebuild our manufacturing infrastructure anyway, so now is the time to do it. Technology exists right now to revolutionize living for not just us but the world. The only thing holding us back are the usual suspects, the parasites for whom innovation means a reduction in their theft.

[yourout]

3. One of the very few benefits of high oil prices is that it drives up shipping costs....

sometimes to the point of making it cost effective to make things here instead of overseas.

[liberalmuse]

4. Picture a world with no Wal-Mart.

I'd love to discuss this, but alas, I'm not very up on this. I do subscribe to Ghandi's 'small, independent business' (if you will) model. I think it will be cheaper to manufacture items here. I really wish we would begin to figure such things as 'quality of life' and 'sustainable living' and 'Cost-benefit analysis' into our GNP. Again, I'm pretty ignorant on this, and apologize if I've offended anyone who really does know their stuff.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. LOL .........

.... I am laughing **with** you at your closing: ".... and apologize if I've offended anyone who really does know their stuff." Pretty sad that that even needs to be said !!!!

:hi:

On the substance, I'm with you .... small independent business model.

[peace13]

5. Yes when the boats quit coming we will supply ourselves with needed items.

Energy dependence will strengthen our resolve.

[ladjf]

6. I think that to some extent , we can re-grow manufacturing jobs

in America.

[KG]

67. it can be done, but both politcal parties are against it.

[Donnachaidh]

10. once they establish health care for all the companies will come back

Health care is this year's big DRUM and the parties are taking heed not because of the voters, but because the companies call this their BIG expense that motivated the movement of jobs overseas.

Once that happens you'll see changes. But we shouldn't back off getting unions back into the workplace. For too long we've had dumbasses claiming that *EVIL UNIONS* caused this problem. The unions didn't cause the problem - the morans who bought into that are just as dumb as the repukes who call Obama a terrorist.

[Vickers]

11. It's not just the jobs that left...in many cases the actual machinery.

Without getting into specifics, I have a friend that makes his living shipping stuff to (primarily) South America, stuff that was used to make things up here.

These machines are probably not even made any longer, or certainly not the quality that they used to be.

And they are gone, forever.

[maxsolomon]

14. they shipped our streetcars south, too.

where they run today.

[raccoon]

81. I presume you mean Central/South America? nt

[WA98070]

12. If we choose to make it a priority. I would rather buy US Made but I can't find what I want.....

Supposedly the Prius will be made in the US in the near future. I am looking forward to the Volt.

I pay more for Redwing shoes and Lucky jeans. But every time you buy something you have to check the tags and make a personal choice. Manufacturers are always moving. I think even Lucky jeans are now made in Mexico. Kirkland jeans (Costco) are made in Mexico with US cotton.

It used to be that the military provided a base for US manufacturers but now their uniforms are even made overseas.

[Ichingcarpenter]

15. The Green Revolution in California is already creating jobs without

National support.

Imagine that!

[Betsy Ross]

16. I BELIEVE we can create new manufacturing jobs

under President Obama as we invest in green technology. Tax breaks for those creating full-time jobs. Remove the breaks for sending jobs off-shore. We must create jobs to rebuild our economy.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

17. The Chinese manufacture very marketable "low end" products.

Which has a very wide market. The "west" (including Japan) manufacture "high end" goods with a much smaller market.

The result is obvious in the trade balance.

Can we compete? I can't see how, considering labor costs here.

We will just have to wait..a long time..until the developing powerhouses like China and India have to pay more to their workers.

But, the good news is that China is now spending to develop their domestic market which will, inevitably, raise wages.

[JHB]

79. There's more to the trade imbalance than just trade...

There's the political imbalance that insists that we engage in "free trade" policies while the Chinese don't (i.e., keeping their currency artificially low against the dollar, requiring companies that do business there to manufacture there, etc.). Not to mention how useful a police state is in supressing union organizing...

[The2ndWheel]

18. If the global machine breaks down, sure

There was a brief moment where place made a difference. As long as place means nothing, then ways will be found to do your job cheaper.

[snappyturtle]

19. I don't know why not. I think this time is one hell of a good time

to start re-thinking manufacturing here in the good ol' USA. Number one: we need the jobs
Number two: there's most likely going to be or currently is a lot of commercial real estate that has previously been closed due to outsourcing that could be 'recycled' and Number three: We'd all LOVE to buy MADE IN THE USA!

I've watched the giftware industry sell out to China. No one will convince me that are beloved collectibles, ornaments,small household items, etc. can't be made here on our soil. Some of these could almost be done cottage industry style. I was in the handmade wholesale ornament business until the late nineties when between the thieving of designs and cheap manufacturing rates in China literally shut me down. Before that time came I did make enough to live on with a little left over. I experienced a great sense of pride which was priceless to me. Since then I am floundering and not feeling much hope or self-worth. I belief I could start this up again....well, when I get a bit of money together.

Glad you brought this topic to the forefront. I've been thinking about it too and now feel some inspiration. Thanks!

[madokie]

20. There is no doubt in my mind that most of the manufacturing will return to the US

We are on the road to recovery. A recovery where it will once again be cool to pay good wages with good benefits turning out good products for us to buy. Americans build superior products and always have and if there is a choice I buy American no matter what the price difference is. Where there is a choice its like the foreign made products don't even exist. Theres many more people just like me too on this, in fact enough to get the ball rolling for the return of the manufacturing jobs. imo

Anyone that doesn't believe it just hide and watch and see that I'm saying is going to be proven out to be true.

[nichomachus]

22. First, we need to eliminate corporatism

That is the thing that ruined the country -- make as big a profit as possible and damn the consequences.

I grew up in a thriving milltown in the Northeast -- good jobs, great skilled workforce, etc.

Then, in an effort to squeeze more money out of the business, the corporations started chasing cheap labor. First, they headed to the South where they could escape unions and avoid environmental rules. Then, the people in the South decided they wanted a decent standard of living and really didn't like rivers that were green and purple. Then, they went further South. Rinse and repeat. Then, they headed over the borders. Now, we ship the job out to slave laborers in China.

One of the biggest problems is that corporate directors are required by law to make as much money for the shareholders as they can, with no restraints. If that means poisoning the river, they have to poison the river. We need a change in the laws that govern corporations. Then, we can begin to rebuild our economy. But, it won't happen before.

[HeraldSquare212]

23. I think the cost to ship and, due to increased unusual weather activity,

continual distruptions in shipping, will be key disincentives to continuing to manufacture overseas.

[endarkenment]

26. Wage disparity with East Asia remains huge.

And that doesn't take into account other 'unregulated trade' bullshit such as environmental regulation, workplace safety regulation, product safety regulation etc. all of which allow for the cheaper production of goods and services.

Barring a major change in trade policy, we can only compete in technological innovation and we are doing a piss poor job in remaining competitive there as well. I don't see padlocks and flashlights being manufactured competitively here anytime soon.

We are about to go from three car companies to two. We can still build a great airplane. We manufacture lots of weapons. Other than that? not much.

[JCMach1]

57. That has to change... companies compete in a race to the bottom

which actually forces places which unionized (like Cambodia) out of the garment industry for example.

All to save a few cents (very few on the dollar).

[WA98070]

27. Labor is a very small cost in most manufacturing. Energy and tooling are the biggies, followed by..

the cost of money.

If the government chose to build the factories and rent them to GM, Ford or Chrysler to build the cars of the future with parts made in the US we would return to being the world leader.

We socialized banking, with tax incentives and financial assistance we can rebuild manufacturing.

[Jed Dilligan]

36. Sure, we just need to make different or better stuff than the other guys.

Maybe if more people got paid to think and fewer got paid not to think we could figure out how to do that.

[earth mom]

48. I've got my fingers crossed for solar & wind & hybrid cars to greatly help the manufacturing

base in this country.

That said, even though I want to see everything we need and want manufactured here in this country, I highly doubt the Chinese will let go of their stranglehold unless we impose heavy tariffs. Except that tariffs aren't likely to be imposed since every president since Reagan has trashed the idea and we're now part of a "global economy". :puke:

[mirror wall]

49. Probably not for a very long time.

If ever. Globalization has ruined that. Corporations are, by nature, interested only in creating the largest gains for themselves. Ergo, they will continue to export jobs to the third world where they can benefit from what basically amounts to slave labor and an almost complete lack of regulation. Either workers in those countries will have to organize and governments institute stricter regulations or the jobs will stay away. It's sad, maddening, and sick but very true.

A rising tide sinks all ships, apparently.

[JCMach1]

59. Yes it is possible... when America understands that cheap manufacture

is about profits for the companies.

The American consumer DOES NOT BENEFIT.

Want an example... visit Walmart and write down the price of 100 Chinese items. Then come visit me in Dubai where we get those products in outlets owned by the manufacturers (not retail monopolies like Walmart). The price is usually 1/10th or less of the US cost for the same item.

I will give you one recent example that I bought.


Ab Lounger exerciser in the state costs between $89-150 depending on the sale and where you buy it. The price for the exact same item from the manufacturer was 100AED for me... just slightly over $20.

Since Walmart and other US retailers are the 500lb gorilla monopolies that they are they can use their weight to make deals with manufacturers that lock in their products to the US market.

If Chinese manufacturers and small Business in the US could get together they could cut out the middle-man and smother Walmart with a pillow.

Then, the US gov. can do critical things like requiring US minimum wage for items manufactured and imported into the US.

[Hannah Bell]

61. of course it's possible.

[Strelnikov_]

62. $1T Current Accounts Deficit

"Things that cannot go on forever, don't"

At some point, we will have to become a net-exporter again.

At some point, most everything you purchase will be domestically produced.

The question is, what will be the level of consumption, that of Sarah hockey-mom or Sanjay ragpicker.

[blues90]

72. I don't see how

Just consider the lack of environmentle regulations , who cleans up the waste and regulates it, isn't this one of the many reasons jobs are shipped out.

Then we are already set to compete with the low wage of the global economy and figure in health insurance and job safey.

I think we have allowed it to be blown to hell now.

Maybe some day far after I am dust but not anytime soon I fear.

[Hekate]

73. I truly believe we can. Whether we will is another matter. Incredibly short-sighted corporate greed

... got us into this mess, enabled by insufficient government regulation to protect our nation and our people.

Yes, we can. I hope desperately that we will.

Hekate

[Two Americas]

76. of course

It is inevitable. Right wing policies have destroyed and suppressed this. The position they have placed us in is the temporary and unstable position. They worked very hard to destroy our manufacturing, infrastructure and economy. Restoration those will happen, providing that the Democratic party stops promoting neo-feudalism along with the right wingers, or when people are willing to start seeing alternative political approaches. That is inevitable, as well.

The movement toward justice can be delayed, but not denied. It is only a question of how long and how many people suffer in the meantime. The stumbling block, the obstacle, is the stubborn resistance within the activist community. That is where the most conservative elements in the country on this issue are now.