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Oliver Stone's W: missed opportunities and even inaccuracy.

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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:39 PM
Original message
Poll question: Oliver Stone's W: missed opportunities and even inaccuracy.
I saw the movie last night. It was surreally sympathetic to the Tard King

It showed him as a dimwit, but not as a cruel, sociopathic liar and con artist.

One scene near the end was really disturbing because I remember the real life version. A reporter asks Bush if there's anything he would do differently as president after he's been in office a few years and his approval is slipping. Bush can't come up with anything.

In the film, Bush seems chastened and struggles for words as if overcome with regret, confusion, and guilt.

In real life when Bush was asked that, he looked like he couldn't even entertain the thought that he had made a mistake. If he was upset at all, it was at the questioner for being less than fawning and deferential.

That is an inexplicably inaccurate to the point of being dishonest choice on Oliver Stone's part.

Another very odd choice he made was having Cheney give a speech about the real purpose of the Iraq War: controlling Iraq's oil, being in a position to attack Iran, and therefore controlling the bulk of the world's oil supply and thereby the world--and everybody else in the meeting reacts by going back to talking about terrorist and protecting America as if they gave a shit.

There was a satiric and historically accurate opportunity missed by not exploring Karl Rove's role in Bush's rise more, like the sliming of John McCain in the 2000 election and how Bush reacted when McCain confronted him about it on Larry King. Stone even had a scene of Bush being out-slimed and out-Good-Ol'Boyed in a debate during his first failed congressional run that would have been an excellent bookend to his later effective ruthlessness. Rove looks at most like a wormy aide, not a Machiavellian king-maker and uber-dirty trickster.

A couple of the casting choices were just odd.

Having Scott Glenn play Rumsfeld was an undeserved compliment. Glenn has made his career playing laconic cowboys and their equivalents, men who would never say ''Goodness gracious'' even they were threatened with a hot branding iron. Kurtwood Smith of That 70's Show could do Rummy's combination of smarmy prissiness and impatience with the opinions and concerns of others in his sleep.



Jeffrey Wright, a great actor in any number of other parts, chose to do Colin Powell in a gravelly monotone voice. He did good work here, but Dennis Haysbert who played the president on 24, looks and acts like Colin Powell's twin brother (just a shade darker). I always think of Wright as a young guy too, whereas Powell and Haysbert both act like they aren't now and never were young.



Thandie Newton is also a great actress, but her performance here was at the level of a Saturday Night Live skit. Her Condi was little more than awkward posture and vocal tics.

Oscar winner Ellen Burstyn barely turned in a note and a half performance as Barbara Bush, as loud but ultimately concerned about her wayward son. A great, bitter real life moment was missed when they didn't have her callous comment about Hurricane Katrina victims being better off in a stadium than they were before the storm.

That is probably the heart of what is wrong with the movie. There were so many moments like that in Bush's presidency that were missed:


  • the already mentioned smearing of McCain in 2000

  • his appearance on televangelists' TV shows as seen in http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0416043/">The World According to Bush>

  • the phone call when Gore retracted his concession

  • contrasting his redneck public image with telling a black tie and tails crowd that they were his base, "the haves and have mores"

  • Flying all the way to California just to refuse the Democratic governor's plea to make federal regulators do their jobs when the state was being http://www.gregpalast.com/the-al-capone-of-electricity/">blackmailed out of billions by energy traders who jacked up the price of electricity, and created artificial scarcity that led to rolling blackouts.

  • getting the ''Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US'' memo and telling the briefer he'd covered his ass and could go

  • standing on the rubble of the World Trade Center yelling through a megaphone

  • saying he would get bin Laden ''dead or alive''

  • Desperately classifying and trying to diffuse http://professorsmartass.blogspot.com/2007/02/probe-this-sen-bob-graham-said-two-911.html">the Joint Congressional Inquiry into 9/11's finding that his friends the Saudi government had a major role in the 9/11 attacks, and appearing with a Saudi prince to reassure him of our friendship (contrasted with the belligerence toward Iraq and later Iran, both of whom had nothing to do with 9/11).

  • then later saying he didn't care where he was

  • the WMD skit juxtaposed with his serious speeches before the war about ''the threat'' from Iraq

  • calling critics unpatriotic and retaliating against them from Dan Rather to Joe Wilson

  • ignoring laws passed by congress or adding signing statements that contradict the plain sense of the law, setting up a constitutional showdown where Congress blinked and he didn't

  • the scripted press conferences staged to the point of having a male prostitute pose as a reporter and lob softball questions

  • the use of terror alerts and bin Laden tapes at politically convenient times

  • being unconcerned about Hurricane Katrina apart from how his cronies could capitalize on the disaster, and his aides being so afraid of him that they didn't tell him he wasn't doing enough until days later.

  • and on and on...


Like the events Stone showed, those are all in the public record and undisputed. But unlike Stone's choices they tell the true story of the tragedy for America and the World.

Any film biography has to make a choice: either it can zero in on a film-sized chunk of the subjects life, a period or two that symbolize the whole, or it can do the cliff notes version of their whole life. The latter is rarely successful, and Stone fell into that trap.

There is a great story to be told about Baby Bush and the family that spawned him, something combining Shakespeare's scheming hunchback, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_(play)">Richard III with the wastrel Prince Hal from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV,_Part_1">Henry IV Part I. Instead of making that movie, he made Forrest Gump Goes to the White House.

If you saw W, what did you think?
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
1. You are way off. That scene blames Bush for 9/11.
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 05:45 PM by arcadian
The one where the reporter asks Bush if he has made any mistakes.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. How did you get that out of it? Also, my point was it makes Bush look remorseful, a feeling I have
never seem him express in public and something it's hard to imagine him even feeling in private.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The question posed was...
"After 9/11, do you feel that you have made any mistakes in your administration?" Or something to that effect. The "After 9/11" part was at the beginning. Wish I could find the actual question. To see if the reporter asked "After 9/11".
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. my point about Bush's reaction stands whether it was preceded by 9/11 or not
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
2. Oliver Stone makes cartoons
From Platoon to the present day.

Cardboard charicatures of good, evil etc.

I find him a boring filmmakker.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. I liked Platoon--it showed the descent into moral chaos in war
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
5. Very instructive to look at things almost from W's own point of view.
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 06:18 PM by Overseas
Looking at him in the "Truth is stranger than fiction" way is much scarier than doing a kooky parody. The film did a great job in asking us to imagine the spoiled frat boy, black sheep in the aristocratic Bush family, brashly pushing his way through life. Being bailed out by Dad time after time.

Just to understand that the USA was taken over by the gang shown in the movie, with an enigmatic Cheney knowing just how to play W. to whip up the team for the fantasy of U.S. domination of Middle Eastern oil fields.

That was instructive. Showing the way W. has been dedicated to spouting the right wing platitudes and charming the religious right since he lost his Congressional race. And it showed his conversion through debauchery very well. And included his dedication to "a higher Father" than Poppy Bush and his expert foreign policy advisers.

In that way, Stone brought the story into the present, where a Christian fundamentalist, nominated by Republicans for VP, would be guided by her own inner "voice of God" as opposed to the experts in our government departments who have dedicated their lives to our national security.

So I thought it was really stimulating -- JUST LOOK AT THIS GUY AS THOUGH HE HAD ANY LEGITIMACY, and he still looks really bad. That's what I liked, too. Even with favorable treatment, he still is reckless and pathetic and a dismal failure. And sorry folks but yes we did have an abject failure as our 43rd president.

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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. The film shows Bush being used as a puppet by nearly everbody.
W. is a Bush and everbody wants to cash in on that Bush name.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. Stone went really light on even his religious connections besides the missed opportunity I mentioned
He could have done Bush doing the prayer stunt with a Saudi prince, or doing his ''god told me to strike Iraq'' bit with Palestinians.

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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. But the lighter touch invites more open minds -- even if this much were true
just this much-- it is still terribly strange and unsettling.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I hate to go back to the Hitler analogy, but would it be useful to simply show him insulting Jews...
and never mention the Holocaust?

You are assuming that we somehow need to gradually ease people into to an unpleasant truth, or that Bush's harshest critics are wrong simply because what they say sounds extreme without examining the truth or falsehood of their claims.

And facts in the public record establish a far more damning picture of Bush than the failed, simpleton idealist the MSM and Stone show here.
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Paladin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. Why Pick It Apart Like That?

OK, so Oliver Stone didn't slam Dubya as hard as he could have, and didn't live up to your standards. The fact is that, for the first time ever, a movie has been made about a sitting president, showing him to be a failure and a douche bag. And preliminary word is that's doing well at the box office.

It'll do for me while I'm waiting for the nation-wide street party in January......
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thank you.
:applause: :applause: :applause:
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I saw it last night and thought it was pretty good
and it showed W to be the dumbass he is


8 years so many fuck ups so little time


he did good
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
18. the one thing that was good was Bush suggesting a false flag incident to Tony Blair
by repainting an American spyplane as a UN and letting Saddam shoot it down to have a causus belli.
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greenbriar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I saw it last night and thought it was pretty good
and it showed W to be the dumbass he is


8 years so many fuck ups so little time


he did good
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. it's like doing a movie about Hitler and only goofing on his oily hair and funny mustache
It was not a matter of soft or hard, but accurate or inaccurate.

He missed the essence of the man, his associates, and his impact on the world.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I think it was even more powerful because it said-- if this is a fairly positive view of the guy,
he is a total wreck.

If all the stuff the apologists have told us is true, even so, all these miserable mistakes are left. Sociopathic crap is left. The guy is still rotten to the core and made his way through his father's intervention.

That's what I liked about the experiment of trying hard to be fairly neutral in presentation. It still shows how disgraceful it was that we as a nation subjected ourselves to domination by those bullies and their beer-loving regular guy who was drunk and born again just like them.

Okay look, we'll try to show good ole Georgie as a rising star with a swagger, bumbling his way on in to the White House, manipulated by Cheney.

To me, it seemed to be that Oliver Stone's impression of W. was that he was a narcissistic sociopath in some ways. And he had this charm with people that he maximized. And angry emotions of jealousy and envy.
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arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 07:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. This is why I think it was good
It shows Bush to be the fraud he is to the casual observer. Those not on DU, DUers knowing every minutia of every failure that is the Bush Presidency, will walk away thinking, "I had no idea". However there are little nods and winks to the people who are in the know as well. I thought the movie was excellent.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. It largely reinforces the media myth of Bush as at worst, a mistaken idealist
albeit a very stupid one.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. That's sad and frightening --
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. I didn't see that at all. Deluded Jesus Freak. Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
It was like, look, even if he thought he was hot stuff, it doesn't excuse a thing he did. It just shows how very callous and shallow W. is and always has been.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. he is also an intentional con man who knows he is fronting for business interests
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
17. We had already decided not not see it ...for me, mainly based
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 08:16 PM by defendandprotect
on sensing this was weak on criticism of Bush --

but then, I thought his NIXON was too kind --

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lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. Even With Its Flaws, I Am Glad Stone Made It
At least there will be some record of Bush's ineptness out there for future generations. I'd really hate it if only the right wing made movies about him dictating him as a benevolent, wise, religious man responsible for the end of terrorism like they've done with Reagan.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 03:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. BAD movie, very disappointed! Sympathetic to murderous racketeers -softball
Is Oliver living in Cheney's basement? Dreyfus is great, he made Cheney look like a reasonable decent man. Good fucking job! Just what we need.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-19-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. yep, 1% doctrine is an excuse for theft not a real strategy. He's smart enough to know
Saddam, Iran, Venezuela, and anyone else on a shit list are in no way a threat to us, but by arming themselves, they limit our ability to invade them or even push them around.
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