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The Latest Republican Talking Point: Obama Perpetrates Class Warfare

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:46 PM
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The Latest Republican Talking Point: Obama Perpetrates Class Warfare
A few nights ago I listened to Tom Ridge speaking at a McCain rally, talking about Barack Obama’s proposed tax increases on people who make over $250,000 a year. The only thing he had to say about it was “class warfare” and “income redistribution”, which he whined about through his whole speech. McCain repeated the point at the October 15 Presidential debate. And here is an October 10 article from the Washington Times explaining how Democrats, and Obama in particular, are engaging in “class warfare”:

The preferred play of Democrats these days is the “class” card. The Democrats have increasingly tried to redefine the “them vs. us” struggle in terms of class rather than color. As they tell the story, economic prosperity is a zero-sum game. Income gains attained by the “rich” come at the expense of the “poor”. Corporations bestow lavish compensation on executive insiders while cutting salaries, benefits and jobs for hard-working Americans. A massive flow of campaign contributions assures that elected officials will protect and serve the rich, while simultaneously cutting holes in the social safety net. Tax cuts for the rich not only fuel conspicuous indulgence among the elite, but diminish spending on health services, school, and the safety of the poor. Wall Street gains at the expense of Main Street. It all boils down to “them” (the rich) vs. “us” (the poor and middle class). Barack Obama has used the “class card” relentlessly to enlist and energize his supporters.

This is all about Obama making a distinction between his proposed tax policies and those of McCain’s, with respect to who benefits from them. McCain proposes to maintain, and even expand upon the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy – the tax cuts that have increased our national debt by over $500 billion for the past six years in a row, helped to produce the greatest level of income inequality in our country since the Gilded Age, and driven 5 million more Americans into poverty.

In stark contrast, Obama would reverse the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy and use the proceeds to reduce our national debt and provide some much needed relief to the poor and the middle class. He has said on this subject:

The Bush tax cuts – people didn't need them, and they weren't even asking for them, and they ought to be relaxed so we can pay for universal health care and other initiatives.… We have to stop pretending that all cuts are equivalent or that all tax increases are the same…. At a time when ordinary families are feeling hit from all sides, the impulse to keep their taxes as low as possible is honorable. What is less honorable is the willingness of the rich to ride this anti-tax sentiment for their own purposes.


A few comments on bashing Democrats for playing the “class card”

The article quoted above from the Washington Times attempts to convince people that Democrats are engaging in “class warfare”, by combining several elements of truth with their standard brand of hyperbole. By starting out with terms like “class card” and “us vs. them” and making the claim that Democrats say that “economic prosperity is a zero sum game”, they hope to thereby dismiss anything that Democrats have to say on the subject.

But no Democrat that I know of has ever said that “economic prosperity is a zero sum game”. That is an extreme position that anyone would be foolish to promote. But the opposite extreme, which is adhered to by right wing ideologues, including the current leaders of the Republican Party, is equally foolish. With respect to the bulk of the Democratic claims enumerated in the Times article:

Many income gains attained by the rich do come at the expense of the poor.

Corporations do bestow lavish compensation on executive insiders while cutting salaries, benefits and jobs for hard-working Americans.

A massive flow of campaign contributions do assure that elected officials will protect and serve the rich, while simultaneously cutting holes in the social safety net.

Tax cuts for the rich do diminish spending on health services, school, and the safety of the poor.

Wall Street gains often do come at the expense of Main Street.

And yes, much of political life in our country today does boil down to efforts by the wealthy to decrease opportunities for the poor and middle class in order to benefit themselves.

To believe otherwise is to shut one’s eyes to reality and to promote the ridiculous and extreme claim that any benefit given to the rich will automatically trickle down to everyone else. So yes, some Democrats (and others) do make all those claims – and thank God they do.


Some historical context on “class warfare”

Class warfare is nothing new. It is as old as human civilization. As long as human civilization has existed, the powerful have striven to maintain their advantages over the powerless. They have done this through a combination of the use and threat of violence, mixed with rationalizations to justify their privileged position. Chief among those rationalizations has been the citing of supernatural forces, including God, gods, or demons.

Jared Diamond, a professor of geography, evolutionary biologist, and Pulitzer Prize-winning author, writes about how various historical societies have died out, in his “Best Book of the Year”, “Collapse – How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed”. Diamond explains that there are many reasons for societal failures. Chief among these reasons is the over-use of resources, leading to resource depletion. That often occurs when a society’s rulers require the working/productive portion of the population to utilize a highly disproportionate amount of resources for the sole benefit of the ruling elite:

Some people (i.e. the ruling elite) may reason correctly that they can advance their own interests by behavior harmful to other people. Scientists term such behavior “rational” precisely because it employs correct reasoning, even though it may be morally reprehensible. The perpetrators know that they will often get away with their bad behavior, especially if there is no law against it…

Conflict of interest involving rational behavior arises when the interests of the decision-making elite in power clash with the interests of the rest of society. Especially if the elite can insulate themselves from the consequences of their actions, they are likely to do things that profit themselves, regardless of whether those actions hurt everybody else…

Throughout recorded history, actions or inactions by self-absorbed kings, chiefs, and politicians have been a regular cause of societal collapses, including those of the Maya Kings, Greenland Norse chiefs… As a result of lust for power, Easter Island chiefs and Maya kings acted so as to accelerate deforestation rather than to prevent it: their status depended on their putting up bigger statues and monuments than their rivals… That’s a regular problem with competitions for prestige, which are judged on a short time frame…

Significantly, Diamond found not a single example of a society that collapsed because too small a share of resources went to the ruling elite.


Current day Republican explanation for severe income inequality

In the United States in 2001, 1% of the population controlled 38% of the wealth, whereas the bottom 40% owned just 1%. That means that, on average, individuals in the top 1% owned about 1,500 times more wealth than individuals in the bottom 40%. And the policies of the George W. Bush administration have served to widen that wealth inequality much further.

But those are just statistics. The real questions are: Are these extreme degrees of wealth inequality justified, and are good for society? Indeed, today’s right wing Republican ideologues attempt to justify it by implying that it is fair, without actually using the word “fair”. Al Rantel, writing for the right wing magazine NewsMax, puts it like this:

It never occurs to the class warfare specialists that rich people got that way generally because they work hard and take enormous risks.

In other words, low-wage workers don’t work hard. And they carry golden parachutes with them to avoid risk. That’s why they typically make 431 times less money than the CEOs for whom they work.


Some reasons for extreme wealth inequality – or why the rich get richer at the expense of everyone else

Rantel’s statement could just as well be turned around to say: It never occurs to the class warfare specialists on the right that sometimes the rich get richer for reasons other than hard work or taking risks.

The underlying mechanism whereby the wealthy are able to stack the deck of the American economic system in their favor is legalized bribery of the politicians who control our government.

There are now about 35,000 lobbyists in the United States. Corporations pay those lobbyists about $2 billion in salaries and spend another $8 billion to “influence” legislators to help to enact favorable legislation. In many if not most cases, the legislation in question, while benefiting the corporation, will do so at the expense of most everyone else.

Thus there has developed in the United States an unholy and symbiotic alliance between government and corporate power, whereby our government acts in behalf of corporate interests rather than in behalf of our interests, in return for the bribes that keep them in power.

Bill Moyers explains the system in a straight forward manner. He made the following comments during a speaking tour titled “Saving Democracy”, in California in February 2006, and reprinted in his book, “Moyers on Democracy”:

We have lost the ability to call the most basic transaction by its right name. If a baseball player stepping up to home plate were to lean over and hand the umpire a wad of bills before he called the pitch, we’d call that a bribe. But when a real estate developer buys his way into the White House and gets a favorable government ruling that wouldn’t be available to you or me, what do we call that? A “campaign contribution”.

Let’s call it what it is: a bribe.

Let’s now consider some of the specific consequences of this unholy alliance between government and corporate power.

Monopoly
The Sherman Antitrust Act was enacted in 1890 to prevent excessive concentrations of wealth at the expense of the public interest. An article from Cornell University Law School explains the problem with monopolies and trusts:

Trusts and monopolies are concentrations of economic power in the hands of a few. Economists believe that such control injures both individuals and the public because it leads to anticompetitive practices in an effort to obtain or maintain total control. Anticompetitive practices then lead to price controls and diminished individual initiative. These results in turn cause markets to stagnate and depress economic growth.

Monopoly proliferation has probably hurt the American people worst in the telecommunications sector. With the passage of the Telecommunications Act of 1996, a very small number of very wealthy corporations began to monopolize our national news media. The result has been a national news media that has sunk to new depths in their failure to inform the American people about the most important issues of the day. To the extent that they are interested in important issues and events, their objectives are primarily to misinform the American people into quietly accepting their efforts to dismember our democracy.

A misinformed people cannot adequately participate in democracy. By misinforming the American people in accordance with their own interests rather than providing accurate and meaningful news in the interests of serving the public, our corporate news media has driven government policy far to the right of where the interests of the people lie.

License to pollute
There are many industrial processes that pollute our air, water, and soil, thereby damaging the health and quality of life of the American people and even causing long term damage to the earth itself. Therefore, the American people have a legitimate interest in regulating such activities.

Right wing ideologues, however, oppose such regulation because it interferes with the “free market” rights of corporations to make profits. Thus we have such proposals as the “Corporate Air Pollution Plan”, which are designed to deregulate air quality standards to increase the profits of the rich, to the detriment of the American people.

The Iraq War
The American people never wanted their country to invade and Occupy Iraq in 2003. Even with an intensive propaganda campaign promoted by the Bush administration, to convince us that we needed to invade Iraq to secure our safety, still barely a half of Americans approved of the Iraq War.

Nor does that war benefit the American people in any way. The so-called “weapons of mass destruction” that served as an excuse for war never existed. We are not spreading democracy to Iraq. Far from helping us combat terrorism, the Iraq War has facilitated the recruitment of more terrorists.

But none of that was the purpose of the war. The purpose was to pursue the imperial ambitions of the Bush/Cheney administration and to enhance the wealth of their cronies. For example, the “trade liberalization laws” made it possible for U.S. corporations to monopolize economic activity in Iraq, and no-bid contracts doled out to Halliburton and other corporations made it possible to steal billions of dollars from Iraq while providing little or no benefit to the Iraqi people.

So, wealthy and powerful corporations benefit immensely from the war, while the American people, their children and their grandchildren foot the bill, thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis die, and Iraq is destroyed.

Favors to the pharmaceutical industry
The U.S. pharmaceutical industry is immensely powerful. As a favor to the pharmaceutical industry, the Bush administration pushed and then signed a Medicare prescription drug plan that specifically prohibited the federal government from bargaining with pharmaceutical companies over the price of drugs. What kind of “free market” policy is that?

The war against medical marijuana use is another good example. Marijuana provides exceptionally good symptomatic relief or treatment for a wide range of medical conditions, for which there is no better or even comparable alternative treatment. Yet the pharmaceutical industry (among others) has lobbied extensively against the legalization of medical marijuana, and the federal government has complied by over-ruling state enacted medical marijuana laws. This adds to the huge profits of the pharmaceutical industry while denying millions of Americans symptomatic relief from serious diseases such as cancer or AIDS.

The prison industry
In recent years, the federal prison system has undergone a good deal of privatization. Consequently, the private prison industry has increased their profits through the use of slave labor, and they have lobbied extensively for more frequent and longer prison sentences, especially related to drugs. That is one reason why our country has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

That is an outrage as far as I’m concerned. Our federal prison system provides a public, not a private service. When corporations are offered the opportunity to profit from a system like this, the potential for abuses, such as violating peoples’ Constitutional rights by making them into slaves, is large.

And what right do these corporations have to interfere with our justice system by lobbying for harsher prison sentences – especially where victimless crimes are concerned? Yes, our Constitutional gives all Americans the right to petition Congress. But can’t we make a distinction between petitioning and bribing?


The bottom line – Why American citizens have the moral right to progressive taxation

Thus we see that there are innumerable ways in which the wealthy profit from the decisions of government (the list in this post barely scratches the surface). In fact, some would say that the Bush administration has engaged in class warfare of the rich against the poor and middle class for eight long years. Speaking of Bush administration policies, Peter Dreier notes:

So far, no major politicians or editorial writers have labeled these actions "class warfare," although this is precisely what Bush is engaged in – helping the already rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else. Class warfare is, in fact, the very essence of Bush's tenure in the White House. In thousands of ways, big and small, Bush has promoted the interests of the very rich and the largest corporations. Corporate lobbyists have the run of the White House. Their agenda – tax cuts for the rich and big business, attacks on labor unions, and the weakening of laws protecting consumers, workers and the environment from corporate abuse – is Bush's agenda.

But what about the use of government to protect American consumers and workers by regulating big business, through such policies as requiring worker safety standards, disapproving unsafe drugs, and requiring a specific minimum hourly wage? Do these policies constitute unwarranted interference with the free market? What about the argument that American workers should fend for themselves? What about the argument that if they don’t like the salary that they’re offered or the conditions of their work, they can go find some other place to work?

My answer to those arguments is that the American people have the right to decide these things for themselves. It’s a little bit like coming across a person being mugged and some good Samaritans intervening to help the victim. Should they be accused of some sort of “warfare” against the strong? I think not.

Our own Declaration of Independence makes this point very clear. Specifically it says that all people have the inalienable right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and that:

Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government…

Thus it is that the document that founded our nation gives the American people the right to elect a man for President of their country, who says that his major priorities are to provide the American people with decent health care, a decent education, and the opportunity for a decent life. And if doing all that and reducing our national debt which hangs over the heads of our children and grandchildren means that the wealthy have to be taxed at a higher rate than they currently are, then that is what he plans to do. It is our government, and we have the moral right to choose such a policy if we think it is the right thing to do. And if right wing ideologues want to call that “class warfare”, then they can leave our country and go somewhere else if they choose to.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree, but in not in the way they do.....its class warfare against the
corporate masters and their billions.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:50 PM
Response to Original message
2. Class warfare, huh?
Edited on Thu Oct-16-08 10:51 PM by gratuitous
Who just milked the Treasury for $750 billion? And whose kids are dying in Iraq and Afghanistan? And when your gas bill goes from $75 a month to $200 a month, does that have more of an effect on someone making $30,000 a year or $300,000 a year?

Oh yeah, there's a class war going on. It's just that the po' folk have decided to fight back. And fat, overfed pigs like Tom Ridge are squealing like they're stuck in a mud fence.
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. It's going on alright and Buffett said that his class is winning
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
34. William Greider's discussion of how our government deals with the wealthy when they're in distress
William Greider, in a recent article in The Nation titled “Economic Free Fall”, discusses how Congress has attempted to ameliorate our economic crisis by providing economic assistance to … ahem … those who need it:

Washington’s selective generosity for influential financial losers is deforming democracy and opening the path to an awesomely powerful corporate state… Hundreds of billions in open-ended relief has been delivered to the largest and most powerful mega-banks and investment firms, while government offers only weak gestures of sympathy for struggling producers, workers and consumers. The bailouts are rewarding the very people and institutions whose reckless behavior caused this financial mess. Yet government demands nothing from them in return…

Washington can act with breathtaking urgency when the right people want something done. In this case, the people are Wall Street's titans… Talk about warped priorities! The government puts up $29 billion as a "sweetener" for JP Morgan but can only come up with $4 billion for Cleveland, Detroit and other urban ruins.

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elleng Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
3. mcC mentioned it at debate, early on,
and CONTINUED to do so; thats what repubs do, always, find a 'talking point' they like, and repeat it, thus it becomes headlines.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Class warfare has been waged 24/7 for the past 8 years! With devastating effects.
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Indenturedebtor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #4
25. Try since the dawn of civilization. Last 40 years we haven't been fighting back though n/t
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. the republikkans have been engaged in class warfare for 40 years
Iy's been levelled against the poor and lower middle class.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Just what I was about to say
These bastards
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
7. This is nothing new
the republicans have trotted this pos out every election cycle for a couple decades, the poor are waging warfare or asymmetrical warfare in more recent years against us, we're being punished for being successful yada, yada on and on.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. It is being used against Obama much more than it was against Gore or Kerry
When Gore or Kerry criticized the Bush tax cuts, they simply tried to ignore the criticisms. Bush spoke only of "cutting taxes for everyone", never admitting that they vastly favored the wealthy over everyone else, and hardly deigning to even talk about it.

I think that Obama has made it more difficult for them to ignore, by coming right out and saying that the wealthy need to be taxed in order to provide money to help the vast majority of Americans get back on their feet (health care, education, etc.) And maybe it's also because he's black that the GOP thinks they can get away with accusing him of class warfare.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #30
53. Was watching CNN earlier this evening
they had this "talking head" named Reese something, who kept saying that Obama was a socialist "he said it himself-spread the wealth around"; to me it shows just how out of touch McCain's people are most American's after how many years now of watching their stagnate and their bosses get increasingly more extravagant salaries and bonuses,being fleeced as taxpayers for $750 billion dollars to bailout some of those same people, having their jobs shipped overseas so the boss can turn a greater profit WANT that wealth spread out a bit more but this fool on cnn kept saying it like it was a bad thing.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:29 PM
Response to Original message
8. that is the oldest lie in the wealthy class's arsenal
Edited on Thu Oct-16-08 11:30 PM by leftofthedial
that class warfare only works one way. the only places they could live and pay less tax than in the US would be the third world.
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Cresent City Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
9. Nice job, very well put
The phrase "making money" is a misnomer unless you run a press at the Treasury. Money comes from other people. All economic activity, from bailing out AIG to buying a pack of gum is "redistribution of wealth."

I could go on and on, but you put it more eloquently than I ever could.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Thank you
There are so many things that could be said about this issue that books could be written about it (and they have been).

I'm so glad to see that they don't appear to be getting away with it this time!
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
10. Class Wars
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Bigmack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:40 PM
Response to Original message
11. Powerful ammo... I'm saving this. Thanks.NT
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
46. Thank you -- Barbara Ehrenreich gave us some good ammunition in an article she wrote for The Nation
In an article titled “This Land Is Their Land”, she discusses what severe income inequality means to the rest of us in practical terms. First, she notes a recent vacation of hers that was going pretty good until she found out that even with a 60% discount she couldn’t find a sleeveless cotton shirt for less that $100. That experience made her recall the first rule of today’s income inequality, which is “If a place is truly beautiful, you can’t afford to be there”. For example, on the subject of Key West, Florida, for which that rule did not apply as of 1986, Ehrenreich notes:

Then, at some point in the ‘90s, the rich started pouring in…. They drove house prices into the seven-figure range. They encouraged restaurants to charge upward of $30 for an entrée. They tore down working-class tiki bars to make room for their waterfront “condotels.”… As for Key West’s characters – with the traditional little conch houses once favored by shrimpers flipped into million-dollar second homes, these human sources of local color have to be prepared to sleep with the scorpions under the highway overpass…

Once they’ve made (or inherited) their fortunes, the rich can bid up the price of goods that ordinary people also need – housing, for example… dispersing the urban poor into overcrowded ranch houses, while billionaires’ horse farms displace rural Americans into trailer homes. Similarly, the rich can easily fork over annual tuitions of $50,000 and up, which has helped make college education a privilege of the upper classes…. Going out to a ballgame has become prohibitively expensive… Superrich collectors have driven up the price of artworks, leading museums to charge ever rising prices for admission… The more expensive a resort town gets, the farther its workers have to commute to keep it functioning.

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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-16-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. In this country, noting the fact that the wealthy have political goals is called "class warfare".
Edited on Thu Oct-16-08 11:47 PM by Marr
Questioning or opposing those goals is also class warfare.
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ReadTomPaine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 05:26 AM
Response to Original message
14. There is already open class warfare in the US.
Let them say it out loud and progressive Democrats call them on it to make it crystal clear - this is a confrontation, and the majority of Americans are on the losing side. The sooner people understand what the real situation is, the better.
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davidpdx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. Actually it's an old recycled argument
We here it every 4 years that the Democrats are waging class warfare. That's one of the Republicans favorite lines.
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NJmaverick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
16. When the rich screw over the poor, they call it helping the Country
when the poor and middle class try to catch a fair break they call it class warfare.
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vssmith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:55 AM
Response to Original message
18. When the unwashed masses start climbing over the fences
into those gated communities the rich will experience the plight of Marie Antoinette.

Aux Barricades!!
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iamahaingttta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 07:04 AM
Response to Original message
19. Class Warfare? Bring it on!
Anything less than "trickle-down" is "class warfare" to the rich, and I say if they don't like paying their taxes, they can take their money and leave the country. We don't want them here anymore if they can't understand that we're all in this together, and that "taxes are the price we pay for civilization."

Seriously... pay a nice chunk of that money that you got from US as your customers, or leave the damn country and you are no longer welcome to do business here.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #19
31. And we don't need them either
Contrary to what the right wing ideologues of the Republican Party tell us.

The largest taxes on the wealthy in our nation's history were initiated during the FDR presidency, and continued more or less intact for nearly a half a decade, until the start of the Reagan presidency. This is the era that Paul Krugman calls "the greatest sustained economic boom in American history", and he has the data to back it up:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2275383
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
20. I like what Robert Reich said on the Daily Show ...
Rich people want socialism for themselves and capitalism for everyone else. That kind of Oh-Gawd-It-Hurts-My-Brain hypocrisy is the definition of class warfare.

Terrific post, T4C! :hi:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. Thank you phrig. Isn't that the truth that they want socialism for themselves?
And then, when they need to be bailed out, they claim that everyone will suffer if we don't help them out.

:hi:
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phrigndumass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. Yep, they believe in trickle-down suffering as well, lol
It takes a huge ego to believe that.

:hi:
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Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. Heck. That's why I am voting for Obama
It's time we fought back.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
22. Wow! I can't think of a better way of winning over the electorate! The
Edited on Fri Oct-17-08 08:11 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
only winners, up to now, have been, and would be in the future, the super-rich! I can't believe he'd bring up class-warfare. Wow!
Bring 'em on! as a certain person said! They shake you and your grandchildren down for trillions of your very hard-earned dollars, and then whine about class warfare...! Unbelievable.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
42. Well, Democrats need to do a better job of challenging this crap
If they don't speak out about it, the Republicans win by default. Democrats have often been afraid to fight back on this subject because they're afraid that they'll be charged with more "class warfare". They also know that our corporate news media will generally back up the Republicans in this argument. After all, the owners of the corporate news media are on the other side of the class war.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #42
57. Precisely. Democrats need to validate their contention with attacks on every front.
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 07:55 AM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
They need to try to validate their arguments as fiercely as the Republicans have, themselves, with their unconscionable, endless plundering of virtually the entire country and its people.

Pity Americans and Brits don't have an anthem like the Marseillaise! As that French woman said (someone quoted, here), "In America, you fear your Government. In France, they fear us!"
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tanyev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 08:39 AM
Response to Original message
23. But, but, I thought he was an elitist.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #23
41. The Republicans have changed the definition of elitist
To them, elitist means anyone who talks in grammatically coherent sentences without the use of a teleprompter.

On the other hand, multimillionairres who are incapable of speaking coherently to public audiences without the use of a teleprompter are "Joe-sixpacks". That would be our Prez.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
24. "by not surrendering the middle class without a fight"
completing their thought. Another excellent piece timeforchange, K & R.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
43. Thank you glitch
It's great to see Obama not surrendering this point to them.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. This and his taking on their bogus "voter fraud" garbage is really making me like him even more.
Of course, the cute pic of him and his daughter in the bumper car from the Iowa State Fair didn't hurt either. :)
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skip fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
26. Fox News all morning on "wealth redistribution" and Joe the Plumber.
Fox and Friends: So obvious so long so stupid so defunct.
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OnionPatch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
27. Caring for the vast majority of Americans is not class warfare.
What they've been doing for twenty years is, though.
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Norrin Radd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
28. kr
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
32. Haven't had the time yet to read the whole post, but based on the subject, I wish it were true.
We've had a class war in this country for well over a hundred years and it is the parasite class that keeps waging it. We beat them back a little and then, pretend they don't exist until the next round of theft.

:kick: & R


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. The parasite class
This is what James Petras in "Rulers and Ruled" had to say on the subject:

Within the ruling class, the financial elite is the most parasitical component and exceeds the corporate bosses (CEOs) and most entrepreneurs in wealth…The financial ruling class is internally stratified into three sub-groups: at the top are big private equity bankers and hedge-fund managers, followed by the Wall Street chief executives… Top hedge fund managers and executives have made $1 billion or more a year… At the bottom rung are the junior bankers of publicly traded investment houses (Wall Street) who average $350,000 a year… Today, the richest two percent of adults own more than half of the world’s wealth…

Income ratios ranging between 400 to one and 1,000 to one between the ruling class and median wage and salary workers is the norm. Living standards for the working and middle classes and the urban poor have declined substantially over the past 30 years… Even the financial press is writing articles such as that entitled: “Why Ordinary Americans have Missed Out on the Benefits of Growth”… In other words, the greater the salaries, bonuses, profits and rents for the financial ruling class engaged in ‘structuring’ for mergers and acquisitions, the greater the decline in living standards for the working and middle classes.

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starroute Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
33. Every society in history has practiced income redistribution
There's mathematical truth behind that old saw about the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. If it weren't for income redistribution, all wealth would accumulate in a few hands and society would grind to a half.

Except for the simplest nomadic groups that don't stay in one place long enough to accumulate material possessions, every society has practiced some form of income redistribution to keep this from happening. Traditional methods were such things as gift exchange, potlatches, having the richest family in town put on the yearly festival, or having the king give away his weight in gold on every birthday.

As societies got more complex, this worked less well -- which may be why "charity" became a central focus of religions like Christianity beginning 2000 years ago. Giving to the poor, tithing to the church -- it was all a form of income redistribution.

What really disrupted the system, though was capitalism. Before that, no matter how rich you got, all you could do with your excess gold and jewels was heap them up in a cave, like Smaug. But once capitalism was invented, you could invest whatever you weren't spending on yourself -- and just get richer and richer without limit.

At that point, the rich got stingy. At first, some of them still gave things away -- like the original 19th century robber barons founding museums and libraries to try to improve their reputations. But that era is long past. Now they don't even feel they have to pretend to be charitable any more -- wealth is its own justification.

In addition, this wealth isn't based on gold and precious jewels. It basically exists on paper and therefore can -- at least on paper -- be multiplied indefinitely. This means that not only can the rich enjoy a level of wealth that is nominally beyond the value of the entire planet, but they can do it without actually reducing the rest of us to total penury.

That whole house of cards is now collapsing. The subprime mortgage crisis -- in which derivatives come to be valued at many times the actual worth of the houses on which they are nominally based -- is a perfect metaphor of this unsustainable divorce of wealth from real value.

But even as this crisis plays its way through, we should be very aware that the failure of older redistribution mechanisms is one of the major causes behind it. If we are to solve the underlying problems, we need income redistribution as an essential tool. Only by creating a society in which wealth is regularly siphoned off at the top in order to till the soil at the bottom will we create a sustainable system, one that is both in touch with the actual value of our world and responsive to the needs of its human population.

This is neither wild-eyed idealism nor "Marxist" resentment by the undeserving poor of the success of the rich. It's simply the result of considering what is necessary to preserve the health of the system as a whole rather than to paper a small subset of anomalously lucky individuals.

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Very interesting
According to the theory you discuss, how is it that the wealthy have historically obtained their wealth in the first place? I think that is an important question because it bears heavily on what is meant by the term "wealth redistribution".

And, do you have a reference for this?
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hannity was calling it welfare today n/t
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
38. Yes, it's class warfare. It's the middle class vs the filthy rich.
And we will redistribute the wealth from the bottom.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 06:48 PM
Response to Original message
39. By Pointing out the GOP's War Against average Americans
Yes, there is a War you started, and we are going to put an end to it.
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Abugface Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
45. The class war has been over for a long time, ...
Edited on Fri Oct-17-08 10:02 PM by Abugface
the rich won.



What is happening now is the defeated are rising up against the victors.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
47. Class warfare, eh?
So then this is a revolution?

(If I remember the basic definition of revolution as they taught it in high school back in the stone age, that is.)
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
48. "The rich" got that way by buying laws which legalized their extortion.
Edited on Fri Oct-17-08 10:51 PM by Waiting For Everyman
Unjustified interest, fees, penalties, asset seizures, liens, garnishments, minimum wage laws, tax laws favoring them and penalizing others, bankruptcy laws, binding arbitration laws, homeowners' association laws, the student loan indentured servitude system, overcharging for drugs and medical care, car insurance, just about everything, innumerable unbalanced and/or privileged state fees like motor vehicle laws, sales taxes, etc., unjustified exemptions and privileges for fraudulent churches, manipulating the price of gas and other market speculations, confiscating pension funds, selling our jobs while bagging private contracts from the government, and on and on which shifted enough wealth to them to...

buy up public assets like universities, hospitals, roads and trains, bridges built by and for the public to use at little or no cost... in order to extort from the public some more.

It's called THEFT. Getting special legalizations for it doesn't make it anything different, systematizing it doesn't make it any different. The rich STEAL. We have class warfare, waged by them. How one-way are our laws? That's how you measure it. Most of the public is going to fight back either by winning this election and restoring the level playing field, or by boycotting it - refusing to fucking pay any longer... besides, it has gone so far that it's now no longer possible to keep paying under these laws. The foreclosure crisis is the stark reality of that. Ever-escalating extortion at some point can not be paid any longer.

All of this needs changing BACK TO THE WAY IT USED TO BE. The ill-gotten gains need to be returned to their rightful owners - the public. And these CRIMINALS need to be fully PROSECUTED FOR IT.

Calling that restoration of equal treatment "class warfare" doesn't make it any different from what it is either - it's justice, the return of law. Their status as "specially exempted criminals" is and was a massive fraud from day one of this decimation of our rightful and just and long agreed-upon laws. Yes, "the rich" have a big bill coming due, from all of us. Taxation is the most practical way of doing that, along with some stiff usury laws. YOU BETCHA!!!

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Justice -- Yep
That's what Obama has been calling it.

And you're exactly right. Make it "legal" doesn't change the fact that it's theft.
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Kazak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
50. Some really good points there...
Very enlightening. Thank you.
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windoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
51. It's so clear that the RW wants America divided
angry and fearful, and Obama wants to unite this country!

**Division vs. Unity**
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ThoughtCriminal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-17-08 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
52. Class Warfare has been going on for Decades
and the Super-Rich have been Winning.
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machI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
54. Kick
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:44 AM
Response to Original message
55. The is the least effective attack they can forge against Obama
and the most predictable.

So Wright went no where. Neither did he's hanging out with washed up old terrorists like Ayers. Neither did Obama is a plant of the ACORN conspiracy (Obama's not a Muslim - he's actually a fucking squirrel!). Neither did he's scary and inexperienced.

Fuck, let them try this. When the masters of the universe on Wall Street are running away with the bail out loot (which McCain can't even say he voted against), I doubt you'll see people making 40 grand a year, losing their job, their health insurance, and their home, feeling sympathetic to a guy making over 200 grand a year.
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Hubert Flottz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-08 04:45 AM
Response to Original message
56. Bush's tax cuts for the rich that McCain supports is really class warfare.
Edited on Sat Oct-18-08 04:46 AM by Hubert Flottz
And Upperclass Welfare!
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