Maybe the plot thickens re Joe the Plumber

[LiberalHeart]

As I posted elsewhere, I suspect that Joe the Plumber goes by his middle name and that his first name is actually Samuel. His address would fit with the neighborhood where Obama met him. And here's the thing: If he's the right guy, he used to have an Arizona address, per some info I found in court records:

Hmmm...a divorce (and Wurzelbacher is listed as living in Arizona in '97):
http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/onlinedockets/DocketDR.aspx?STYPE=1&PAR=DR19970476&STARTDATE=01/01/1900&ENDDATE=01/01/2100&PARTY=0

And some other stuff (including an indication he doesn't like to pay taxes):
http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/onlinedockets/Docket.aspx?STYPE=1&PAR=LN200701803-000&STARTDATE=01/01/1900&ENDDATE=01/01/2100&PARTY=0

http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/onlinedockets/Docket.aspx?STYPE=1&PAR=LN200707076-000&STARTDATE=01/01/1900&ENDDATE=01/01/2100&PARTY=0

http://apps.co.lucas.oh.us/onlinedockets/DocketDR.aspx?STYPE=1&PAR=DM20065458&STARTDATE=01/01/1900&ENDDATE=01/01/2100&PARTY=0

Edited to add: For those who don't live in the Toledo area, Holland is a suburb of Toledo -- and that's where Obama made a surprise visit -- on this guy's street; it's also where he had his chat with the plumber.

[JonLP24]

1. I don't understand court records but this one struck me

OBAL 3/28/1997 COST APPLIED TO : BATTERED WOMEN (3%) - COUNTY (10000230)

Was he abusive? Anyways I hate to do a thorough investigation of some guy. I'd hate if Obama mentioned me and fact checkers everywhere are trying to figure me out.

[LiberalHeart]

2. No, that doesn't mean he was an abuser. It's a cost levied in divorce court to everyone.

At least that's how it works here.

[JonLP24]

3. Thanks, like I said court documents use language I don't understand nt

[Divernan]

29. It was M C C A I N who mentioned him on national TV, NOT Obama!

Why would you distort the facts like that ? ? ? ? Hmmmmm?

[JonLP24]

38. I distort the facts? How?

"Joe the plumber" is not exactly revealing personal information. Trying to dig into court records and everything else is not something I would like done to me if I was mentioned "Jon the whatever"

Ok I figured out what threw you off. I NEVER SAID Obama brought up "Joe the plumber" what I said is I wouldn't like people fact checking me if Obama mentioned my name(Hypothetical, meaning not a factual statement because Obama never mentioned me in a debate). Those are two entirely different statements.

[dixiegrrrrl]

65. Apparently some wife abuse involved..

An earlier DU post reports Thom Hartmann discussed the wife abuse thing this am on radio.
The abuse happened in Arizona some time back.

[LiberalHeart]

67. I think Thom is probably wrong. On the divorce filing...

...the plumber had a mailing address in Arizona, though his divorce was in Lucas County Ohio. There was a court cost levied for battered women, just as there is for all divorces in that county. I think this is a non-starter.

[ColbertWatcher]

4. Google maps is your friend ...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&saddr=355+SHREWSBURY+ST.+HOLLAND+OH&daddr=30+DERBYSHIRE+RD+TOLEDO,+OH&hl=en&geocode=&mra=ls&sll=41.639261,-83.696873&sspn=0.00805,0.013025&ie=UTF8&ll=41.635893,-83.697839&spn=0.008051,0.013025&t=k&z=16">Google Maps shows 55 SHREWSBURY ST. HOLLAND OH to 30 DERBYSHIRE RD TOLEDO, OH

Just for fun!

[LiberalHeart]

5. County property records list him as being at the Shrewsbury address now.

[ColbertWatcher]

6. Just wanted to compare the 2 addresses, I have a question ...

... wouldn't there be records of someone buying a plumbing business?

If his name is indeed Samuel and not Joe, and he just bought a plumbing business, wouldn't there be a record of that purchase somewhere?

[LiberalHeart]

8. I don't think he bought it; I think he said he can't buy it under Obama's plan.

If he did purchase a business, I think I can find it at the SOS site. I'll go see.

Edited to add results of check: No Wurzelbacher-associated business listed under incorporations in this area.

[ColbertWatcher]

10. I think he said he just bought it and under Obama's plan he'd be taxed more.

If he was going to buy it, there are small business loans that could help him.

Opps! Maybe there are no banks willing to give him a loan!

Poor Joe/Samuel.

[tsuki]

34. If I was a banker, and someone came to me for a loan to buy a

business that did not understand the difference between Gross and Net Profit, I don't think I'd loan him the money.

[The Magistrate]

12. He Did An Interview With A Right Wing Blog, Ma'am, Saying He Was Only Thinking Of Buying

He described the business as a two-man operation.

That is a sort of thing that might take in a gross of a quarter million yearly, but certainly would not have anything near that in net taxable income.

[ColbertWatcher]

15. Maybe he needs to get a better accountant! n/t

[The Magistrate]

22. He Needs To Know What Accounts Are, Sir

He is a self-deluded ignoramus, who imagines his best interests are identical to those of a wealthy elite who regard him as a battery hen in an egg factory....

[WallStreetNobody]

33. Magistrate you hit the nail on the head

Seriously, good post. I work on Wall Street for a large hedge fund, I make a decent living and am in the bracket that will get taxed higher but I'm not rich. I do however know a lot of truly rich people through my work, people with tens and even hundreds of millions of dollars. And you are perfectly on point with what you said, this is the case with so many wingnuts - in fact virtually all of them. They will sit there and think they have the same interests as these rich people, when in fact these rich people look at this guy as a poor shithead plumber. And I'm sure he doesn't realize that, he goes over to the local electronics store and sees a big screen TV for $5k and says "I can buy that" and that makes him feel like he's rich, when in fact he is just part of the masses like almost all of us. The funny thing is guys like this would see nothing wrong with a Republican tax plan that ended up raising his taxes but lowering the top taxes, he would easily get sold into the idea that we should give more and more to the rich because in his fantasy world he is headed there. The reason rich people love morons like this is because they will happily put aside their interests to throw their money up to the rich and call it the "American Dream", while they've convinced these dolts that if the tables are turned and the rich shove some money down to him that is "socialism".

[The Magistrate]

36. Well Said, Sir

Most people have no conception of what actual wealth is: they never see it, they never come close to it, they have no standard of comparison by which to gauge the proportion of their own status to it. The fact is that virtually everyone who considers themselves even to be 'middle class' in this country is actually nothing of the sort, bit merely a fairly prosperous peasant. The definition does not actually rest on income, but on ownership, and only a very small proportion of people own even a house free and clear of encumbrance. Membership in the bourgeoisie, the original 'middle class' denoted persons who derived their livings from 'property' in the form of knowledge, such as that entailed in the practice of medicine or law, and including the specialized trade-craft necessary to engage in mercantile activity on a large scale. A plumber is simply a skilled workman: he is never a bourgeois; a 'small businessman' is simply a petit bourgeois: neither ranks even as 'middle class', and not only does not, but cannot, approach to the aristocracy of wealth.

[Blue_Roses]

44. "a fairly prosperous peasant"

Oh, I love this. This is exactly how I feel.

Can I steal this from you?

[The Magistrate]

55. By All Means, Ma'am!

Help yourself, and welcome to it.

[ContinentalOp]

53. Great post. I never thought about the relationship between the classes that way...

but your perspective on it is very enlightening.

[The Magistrate]

58. Thank You, Sir

My abiding interest in history inclines me to take a long view of things, and recur to patterns established over millennia in analysis. Not nearly so much has changed in human social and political arrangements over the span of recorded history as we sometimes like to suppose. Human societies remain pyramidal in structure, with a group that owns at the top and a base that is owned, whether in an actual chattel state, or by those at the apex retaining first rights to the value of their labor, and in between a group of technicians who provide the intellectual labor necessary to keep the thing functioning.

Many here would probably be astounded to see me recommend Marx, but the gentleman was as excellent at social taxonomy as he was poor at prophecy, and he is essential to a sensible understanding of class organization.

[unpossibles]

39. I saw a study done a while back

which illustrated this concept, that a staggering amount of people think that they are in the top 10% of income earners. I think it really goes toward explaining why they vote against their own best interest - they don't realize they are, or they think they will be rich someday too. I call these people the Lottery Voters.

[ContinentalOp]

52. This is exactly why Republicans like to push all of these talking points about "small businesses"

and "small business owners." They want to keep those people deluded into thinking they are somehow on the same level as corporate CEOs. Hell, I'm a "small business owner" merely because I was involuntarily switched from a salaried employee into an independent contractor without benefits and now my wife and I are both freelance and work at home. Which means we technically count as one of those "small businesses" they keep talking about and yet we're just two individuals working for companies that don't have to pay for our health benefits, social security, equipment, or a place for us to sit. I wonder how many of the millions of "small businesses" out there are people in similar situations.

[SoCalDem]

63. Many "small businesses" are Moms who babysit

In order to claim child care, parents must name the childcare provider, so many Moms who used to take care of neighbor hood kids after school for cash...now have had to get licenses and jump through all kinds of hoops to avoid having the IRS jump on them..and have become "businesses", whether they make any money or not..

Back-in-the-day, when a kid fell down at the sitter's house & got a banged up nose or a skinned knee, their parents told him to be more careful...these days they sue the sitter..so even babysitters have to have all the "extras" in place..


and as more and more Moms left the home for paid jobs themselves, that left fewer of them around to even be avaliable for child care, and created a whole new "industry".. Child Warehousing on a large scale...for big bucks to the parents..and peanuts to the workers:(

[Divernan]

30. Right. The man is delusional to think he would make more than $250,000 w/ a 2 man operation!

If by any miracle he could make that much (like working 140 hours a week or something), any small businessman worth his salt would explain how to invest in various assets & use depreciation thereon to reduce profits below a quarter of a million. Joe is by far too stupid to run a business at any profit.
I can't wait to talk to my hardworking plumber, who has a one man operation, with his wife doing the bookkeeping and scheduling, about the likelihood of making a quarter of a million a year ! ! !

[The Magistrate]

9. You Seem To Be At the Head Of Searching Pack, Ma'am

Any correlation between this and the location of Sen. Obama's event at which the video was taken?

[LiberalHeart]

11. Same street. It was a surprise visit by Obama to the neighborhood.

[The Magistrate]

14. You Have Found The Right One, Then, Ma'am, Definitely

[ColbertWatcher]

13. Yup! (Now, with links!)

Mr. Wurzelbacher was photographed in Holland, Ohio. (http://www.daylife.com/photo/0fwofuxctY0TD/Barack_Obama)

Obama went door-knocking in Holland, Ohio. (http://www.daylife.com/photo/08qc4xbe0k3XA/Barack_Obama)

[The Magistrate]

16. Here Is A Link To The Right-Wing Blog Interview, Ma'am

My apologies for the content of the place this leads to, but it does give useful background....

http://familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.1465/pub_detail.asp

[LiberalHeart]

17. And here's a brand new story featuring his street name...

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

[ColbertWatcher]

18. I actually saw that in the other thread! I think you've got some interesting stuff here. n/t

[The Magistrate]

19. Feeling A Little Uncomfortable With It, Ma'am, He Says....

He will feel a damned sight less comfortable with it by next Monday.

That interview reveals him as a Grade A Low-Info Loon....

[LiberalHeart]

20. Yep. Local media is gushing over him so I called a TV station just now and suggested they check....

...his registration. They seemed *very* interested in that.

[ColbertWatcher]

21. LOL! Oh goodie! I love the internets!

I have never been so excited following a live thread as I have been following this one!

LOL!

[The Magistrate]

24. They Should Get A Link To That 'Family Security Matters' Interview as Well, Ma'am

The registration, after all, may be under 'Samuel J.", not 'Joseph'.

[Hubert Flottz]

28. I think somebody wrote a song about John and the plumber...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5ekMyWGq-0

[unpossibles]

40. the comment I read there is great!

READER COMMENTS
I want to point something out that Joe and both cantidates missed. Joe is looking at buying a plumbing business in Ohio. His business would likely gross near or above 250K (if he is luckey). Joe will not be earning 250K in net profits from that business. So the entire discussion is a bit moot because Joe would fall within the "less than 250K" bracket that Obama is proposing cuts to.

Joe, thanks for pointing out that you are small potatoes. Thank you for also pointing out the "socialism" connection. I couldnt agree with you more. That is after all what health insurance is (communial services for the benefit of all). Let's get McCain in there so the we can have an insurace free-for-all! I relish the idea of what it would be like to have tens of millions of people getting their insurance dropped by their employers and the responsibilty falling onto the workers. "Joe Sixpack" will get his butt kicked by the McCain deregulated insurance companies. Then, when Joe cant afford insurance he will go to the ER and rack up tens of thousands in bills that he cant pay. This will get charged off and we will all get to pick up the tab anyway... Hmmm, that sounds like socialism too.

People of Metro Toledo, lets not forget that you are a manufacturing town. If even if Joe did have to pay a little bit more in taxes and is a bit disgruntled it will be nothing compared to the pain that this town feels when our unemployment jumps from more automotive and manufacturing losses. Lets not forget that Joe will need customers, customers who have jobs...

-- Posted by David Tulk on Thu, Oct 16, 2008, 7:12 am EST

Of course, if this site is typical of right wing blogs, that comments will be either deleted or drowned out in ignorant hyperbole.

[leftchick]

42. well that is just pathetic

Joe the plumber likes McCain's tax cuts that he will NEVER be a beneficiary of! What a maroon!

:crazy:

<snip>

Overall, though, Mr. Wurzelbacher was pleased with Mr. McCain's performance.

"McCain was doing much better this time," he said. "McCain came across with some solid points. I like his tax cuts."

[csziggy]

59. You can see "Joe" in pics posted in threads here on DU

Links to the journal of those pics:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kadie - look at pics 5 & 6

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Hope%20And%20Change/305 - last pic shows "Joe"

[LiberalHeart]

7. Frank and Phyllis Wurzelbacher are registered at the Derbyshire address.

I wonder if they're his parents.

[TahitiNut]

37. The photo of Shrewsbury Street on Google matches the campaign videos

The neighborhood is a match, imho.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

48. Here's yet a 3rd address for a Samuel J Wurzelbacher in Toledo:

Same guy?

Samuel J Wurzelbacher 5768 Steffens Ave Toledo Ohio 43623

[ColbertWatcher]

23. Just an interesting thing about the video ...

... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA (ABC footage, via YouTube)

I think Obama's best argument starts at 4:26 at the above link.

[LiberalHeart]

25. That is good.

[chknltl]

26. Is he or is he not related to Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x7474700

[LiberalHeart]

27. Don't know.

[steve2470]

31. this is Joe the Plumber, per the local Toledo newspaper, The Blade

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

"Joe the Plumber" - Joe Wurzelbacher of Shrewsbury Street in Springfield Township(,Ohio)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

50. Here are 2 Toledo addresses for "Joe" and *5* for Robert L. Wurzelbacher

This Robert J Wurzelbacher has 5 listed addresses in Toledo area:

Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 -30 Derbyshire Rd Holland Ohio
Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 -30 Derbyshire Rd Toledo Ohio
also listed: Phyllis E Wurzelbacher age 53 -30 Derbyshire Rd Holland Ohio
Frank E Wurzelbacher age 50 30 Derbyshire Rd Holland Ohio
J P Wurzelbacher age 34 30 Derbyshire Rd Toledo Ohio

Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 - 330 Harefoote St Holland Ohio
also listed: Kelly Wurzelbacher 330 Harefoote St Holland Ohio

Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 -1036 Bedford Woods Dr Toledo Ohio
also listed: Kelly Wurzelbacher 1036 Bedford Woods Dr Toledo Ohio

Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 - 324 Cheswick St Holland Ohio
Robert L Wurzelbacher age 33 -6661 Abbotswood Dr Toledo Ohio

And here is Samuel J:

Samuel J Wurzelbacher 355 Shrewsbury St Holland Ohio 43528 419 1010888198
also listed: Kimberly M Wurzelbacher 355 Shrewsbury St Holland Ohio
Samuel J Wurzelbacher 5768 Steffens Ave Toledo Ohio 43623 419 862466296

[TexasObserver]

32. If he's smart, at 8 AM he's filing a DBA certificate to claim "Joe the Plumber" as his business name

[B Calm]

43. If he's making over a quarter of a million in profit a year, he'd be the last one I would call!

[TexasObserver]

47. he's not even grossly $250,000 a year, and he doesn't even own a business

He's an employee, probably making $40-50K per year.

[WePurrsevere]

35. Interesting "coincidence" that there was a Wurzelbacher tied to Keating...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DE123CF930A25751C1A965958260

Published: December 13, 1993

A son-in-law of the former head of Lincoln Savings, Charles H. Keating Jr., must surrender next year to begin a 40-month prison sentence.

United States District Judge Mariana R. Pfaelzer imposed the sentence last week on the son-in-law, Robert M. Wurzelbacher Jr., who had pleaded guilty to three counts of misapplying $14 million from Lincoln, an Irvine, Calif., savings association.

Mr. Wurzelbacher, 39, was an executive with Lincoln's parent, the American Continental Corporation, which Mr. Keating controlled.

I wonder how common the name Wurzelbacher is.

[NNN0LHI]

41. I wonder how common the name Wurzelbacher is?

Not very.

Don

[ColbertWatcher]

61. howmanyofme.com says there are 336 people with the last name Wurzelbacher. n/t

[Missy Vixen]

45. You know, if there's a connection here

It's Christmas in October. Just sayin'.

We all know something's going on, don't we? ;-)
Julie

[Turn CO Blue]

46. He IS registered to vote, but his name is spelled differently in

some database records.

DorothyT used Lexis to research:

From a comment on DailyKos

If this is he, he is a registered voter... (0+ / 0-)
...found a Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher in Holland, Ohio (near Toledo) on Lexis. He registered in 2002 as party affiliation "none declared." However he re-registered at some point and voted as a member of the Natural Law Party in 2005 and 2007.

Note that on Lexis, in the section on voter registration his name is misspelled Worzelbacher.

Keating's son in law does not appear to be in his immediate family, but there is an Ohio R.L. Wurzelbacher in his immediate family. Keating's son in law appears to live in Coronado, CA, one of the most expensive areas in the country (Robert L. Wurzelbacher, Jr.). He certainly could be related, however.

by DorothyT on Thu Oct 16, 2008 at 07:01:55 AM PDT

So that boggles the mind - the Natural Law party is like a very new-age, let's all meditate type of platform written by a Yogi.

So if his name is spelled incorrectly in the registration (Worzelbacher instead of Werzelbacher), won't he have issues voting at the polls in Ohio? Won't the Republicans "challenge" him because his name doesn't match spellings in other big databases? Oh yeah, he's white and he's a plant, so no. Silly me.

Then he busts out that Sammy Davis Jr. tap-dancing line...

COURIC: Could you just, Joe, explain quickly, and then we'll let you go, how you met both of the candidates?

WURZELBACHER: I've yet to meet John McCain. Obama came to my neighborhood and my son and I were outside tossing the football, and all of a sudden he showed up, and there went our football tossing for a while. And, you know, neighbors were outside asking him questions, and I didn't think they were asking him tough enough questions, so I thought, you know, I'll go over there. You know, I've always wanted to ask one of these guys a question and really corner them and get them to answer a question of--for once instead of tap dancing around it. And unfortunately I asked the question but I still got a tap dance. Do you - almost as good as Sammy Davis Jr.

Bolding mine

[struggle4progress]

54. OMG! Could Joe the Plumber be involved in election fraud?

[ColbertWatcher]

62. Re: the video, Sammy-Jo is wrong.

Obama answered his question.

Starting at 4:24, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFC9jv9jfoA, Obama says to him (after Sammy-Jo whined about paying taxes)

"If the economy is good for folks from the bottom up, it's going to be good for everybody. If you've got a plumbing business, you're going to be better off if you've got a whole bunch of customers who can afford to hire you. Right now, everybody is so pinched business is bad for everybody."

But, then Obama says something interesting, which I didn't catch at the first viewing (starting at about 4:45),

"I respect what you do, and I respect your question, and even if I don't get your vote, I'm still gonna be working hard on your behalf."

How did Obama know this guy would not be voting for him? Was it just a guess? Was Obama just being cautious?

[Ezlivin]

49. How in the HELL did McCain KNOW that "Joe the Plumber" was at Obama's rally?

This sounds suspicious.

How would anyone know who is getting in line to shake hands with a politician? It's not like they have a list of names they go down, rattling off the profession and address of each of those in line.

McCain positively knew that "Joe the plumber" (who is NOT a plumber, but merely an interested businessman) was there and not only that, what Joe and Obama talked about.

It really sounds like a planted stooge to me.

[LiberalHeart]

56. It was all over the news -- local and national -- at the time it happened.

Obama made a surprise visit to the street where the guy lives.

[ColbertWatcher]

60. I doubt he was a plant.

I think he may have just been an opportunistic dittohead.

[earth mom]

51. Obama shouldn't have given this joker the time of day. Joe's a fraud through and through.

But hell yeah, Joe's gonna be rich...someday...in his dreams. :eyes:

[ColbertWatcher]

64. I am sure some sugar daddy will help him buy the business he wants. n/t

[earth mom]

68. Wonder how much they will pay him for the stunt he pulled? nt

[ColbertWatcher]

69. That's what I'm thinking.

He will get seed money to buy the business and whatever else he can get out of them before his 15 minutes are up.

[youthere]

57. did anyone check the list of registered sex offenders?

I'm not making any accusations..I'm just saying, you never know what might turn up.

[LiberalHeart]

66. Nope, not listed in Ohio.

[ColbertWatcher]

70. Good. n/t

[davefromqueens]

71. Plumber JOe

Two thoughts

1. Obama handled the questions terrificly. Footage of the video with Joe the Plumber only helps Obama.


2. This is a relative of Charles Keating. It allows Obama to bring up the Keating Five without having to bring it up.

Whatever McCain had planned, it backfired.