Scientist who did groundwork for Chemistry Nobel now works for $10/h at a Toyota dealership

[FourScore]

Twenty years ago, Douglas Prasher was one of the driving forces behind research that earned a Nobel Prize in chemistry this week. But today, he's just driving.

Prasher, 57, works as a courtesy shuttle operator at a Huntsville, Ala., Toyota dealership. While his former colleagues will fly to Stockholm in December to accept the Nobel Prize and a $1.4 million check, the former Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution scientist will be earning $10 an hour while trying to put two of his children through college.

Nobel-winning work "It's a cutthroat world out there," Prasher said during a phone interview yesterday.

Despite his contributions to the groundbreaking research, a Nobel Prize can only be shared among three people.

In 1961, Osamu Shimomura of the Marine Biological Laboratory in Woods Hole discovered the green fluorescent protein that gives the Aequoria Victoria jellyfish its glow. In the 1980s, Prasher began working with the protein, designated as GFP, after hypothesizing the gene responsible for the protein's fluorescent properties could be used to help view formerly invisible molecular functions.

After the American Cancer Society gave Prasher a $220,000 grant in 1988, he set about isolating and copying the GFP gene.

That caught the attention of Martin Chalfie, another of the Nobel Prize winners announced this week. The Columbia University researcher said yesterday that the organism he was working with at the time was transparent, and he hoped Prasher's work on the luminescent jellyfish protein would provide a way for him to see its molecular functions.

Four years later, as Prasher's grant dried up and he was no longer able to continue his own research, he voluntarily gave samples of the GFP gene to Chalfie.

The cloned gene was also given to Roger Tsien, the third Nobel Prize winner, who has been in the forefront of fluorescent protein research ever since.

"(Prasher's) work was critical and essential for the work we did in our lab," Chalfie said. "They could've easily given the prize to Douglas and the other two and left me out."

But instead of focusing on his hard luck, Prasher said he is happy for his former colleagues. While it was perfectly within his rights not to share the cloned gene with others, Prasher said he felt an obligation to give his research a chance to turn into something significant, even if he was no longer a part of it.

"When you're using public funds, I personally believe you have an obligation to share," Prasher said. "I put my heart and soul into it, but if I kept that stuff, it wasn't gonna go anyplace."

David Mark Welch, assistant scientist of evolutionary biology at MBL, said this sort of situation is a natural byproduct of working in an industry where competition for grant money can be intense. Some grants have 100 applications but will only fund 10 requests, Welch said. That means competition — even from fellow colleagues at the same institution — can be fierce and scientists often feel the need to keep all unpublished research a secret.

Welch praised Prasher's actions and said many researchers are finding it easier to obtain larger grants if they collaborate instead of alienate. "You have to put aside any sort of personal desires to be better than everyone else because if your grant isn't funded, you're in trouble," he said.

Prasher knows that trouble all too well.

After stints at a U.S. Department of Agriculture laboratory and working for NASA in Huntsville, Prasher was out of work for a year before he took a job at the car dealership.

Prasher said he has suffered from health problems and depression, some of which stems from being out of science for so long. But his sense of humor remains intact.

"If Marty and Roger want to show me some gratitude, they can always send some cash," Prasher said. "I'm accepting gifts and donations."

Prasher hopes the Nobel Prize exposure will lead to a job offer in his field, ideally back to Falmouth, where he said he lived happily for 14 years.

http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081011/NEWS/810110328

[Kittycat]

1. Sad

[OhioChick]

2. Welcome to Corporate America...

Where jobs go to the cheapest bidder.

K&R

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. um...he pretty much worked for

gov't or pseudo-gov't agencies...that is where he lost his job...

sP

[OhioChick]

14. Oh...I see...

U.S. Department of Agriculture laboratory.....apparently, we don't need anyone in those positions. :sarcasm:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. you blamed it on corporate america...

point your sarcasm somewhere else...or maybe think before you post.

sP

[OhioChick]

23. corporate america is typically the culprit...

No need to be rude. My sarcasm wasn't directed at you. :P

[ProdigalJunkMail]

24. is that tongue??? :-)

in this case...corporate america wasn't...gotta give 'em credit every NOW and then...they sure could use a guy like this...brains and all that...

sP

[OhioChick]

25. If corporate America could use a guy like him....

Then why don't they want him? (Too expensive? Over qualified?) Sorry, from what I see and read about daily from corporate America, I have no respect for them.

[Horse with no Name]

3. That is what we do to deserving and philanthropic people

We suck the life out of them.
If he was not a generous man, he would NOT have shared his research.
I surely hope Marty and Roger are standup guys. While they cannot share the actual Nobel...they should be VERY generous with the cash prize.

[TZ]

18. Yes.

Just like the political vendetta agaisnt my former boss at NIH..a brilliant scientist who wanted to "fix" things and ruffled feathers by you know trying to get productive work done..so instead of malaria research..Last I heard he was stuck writing computer programs and grant requests...

[Kali]

4. obviously it is gods punishment

he should have gone into fundy religion - much more lucrative, at least for some

[ReadTomPaine]

5. Reminds me of Michio Kaku's comments...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=228x44998

In some respects, we are like the Soviet Union at the end of its run.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

6. The Nobel Prize winners could maybe find him a job in one of their labs?

As a research associate, he may not make much more than he's making now. But maybe he'd find it far more fulfilling than working for a car dealership and wasting his obvious scientific talent.

[KT2000]

7. The US is falling behind

in science and this is they way scientists are treated?
This is insane - another example of money being the determinant.
Put this man to work in the field where he belongs.

[MonteLukast]

57. I'm trying to become one of these home-grown scientists myself...

... but I had a setback of my own, and now I have nearly six figures of student debt, WITHOUT having a doctorate.

I fear that could keep any professor form taking me on. And I'm supposed to be in my prime research and career years.

What was that somebody down-thread said about HR considering those who don't fit a narrow definition of "qualified", to be checkered or even toxic?

It IS toxic to not be able to put what you HAVE learned into practice. That's something nobody seems to want to talk about: there has to be a PATHWAY to becoming qualified. You don't just become qualified out of thin air.

And if you don't actually get jobs, you have to find some OTHER way to get qualified. Self-teaching, shadowing, assistantship... do non-traditional methods of becoming qualified exist anymore? Where's the entry level any more in ANY job, come to think of it?

Too often, it's cheap salesmanship like call center work or fundraising. Yes, even in science.

That's a large part of what we've outsourced. The fucking PATHWAY. So there's something you can follow, to make sure you're making career progress. so there may be places to be, up above, but there's no pathway to GET there.

[KT2000]

59. Enlightening post

Did not know about the pathway issues.
It appears to work as a gatekeeper - or another way to limit the field.
This is nuts - there are so many problems we need answers to.

My friend who is quite nervy, traveled from Boston to Oregon stopping at universities. She talked to anyone she could to ask about jobs she could get there. She ended up with one in Oregon.
She does have her PhD but she had not worked in the field for 20 years.
It was probably discouraging at some stops but she kept it up. I think face to face really helps.

Good luck to you!

[sharp_stick]

9. Grant writing and the odds of holding them

are the main reasons I'm out of the academic world and into industry. Not only is the money better but I don't have to write grants every couple of years with the future of the entire lab waiting on the outcome. Grant renewals for the last year I worked in an academic lab were running about 42%, that's renewals not new grants which were running about 18% success.

We would spend weeks running into months putting the best package we could together and it turns into a crap shoot with those odds. Many many really good scientists go through what Prasher did. I hope he can land back in the field soon, this really should help.

[PatGund]

48. Understand!

I was the sysadmin for a lab at Salk Insitute. We lost one of our grants - and 1/3 of our funding.

A few months later, I was working for a year in the Middle East because my job had been cut.

Now I'm at a K-12 private school.

If I never see another grant proposal again.....

[Bozita]

10. He needs to go back to school and retrain for the future.

GWB says it all the time.

:sarcasm:

[Ezlivin]

13. Ding, ding! We have a winner!

You are exactly right. GWB has said it time and again: When you're out of work, simply go back to college and pick up another degree.

I'll bet that if this guy went back to school and got a BA in business he'd be raking in big money in a year or two. Hell, if he went for an MBA he could be enjoying a nice golden parachute from a major Wall Street firm right now.

[arcadian]

11. Braaaaaaaaaaaaain Draaaaaaaaaaaaaaain

[RufusEarl]

12. Sounds like a guy working for humanity, instead of himself.

Hope he's able to get back to research soon, we could use him.......

Peace!

[Delphinus]

41. I know!

I'm proud of him - altruistic is what I am thinking he is.

[Greyhound]

15. Symptomatic of one of the plagues in the US.

In a way, this guy's lucky. He got some press and will likely at least get another job cause we don't like to expose what we're doing, there are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, like him in every field.

Competence is trumped by cheap mediocrity every time, anymore.

[ColbertWatcher]

16. Pfft. He's still got nothing on Rosalind Franklin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosalind_Franklin

[Blue_Tires]

21. hmm...funny how her story got left out of "The Double Helix"

which i had to read back in HS...

[ColbertWatcher]

27. Yeah.

But, it seems like it's a common thing to ignore the lab techs, grad students, etc. who contribute but aren't "technically" in charge.

Limiting the winners to three is fine, but that doesn't mean the history books have to.

[pitohui]

29. well you see she had a personality disorder

her personality made the mistake of being born in a female package

sigh

i don't know this man's story but based on what i've observed, it's highly likely that he was pushed aside for the limited grant money by people who were more ruthless, me, i would have kept the secret to myself, why should the world and somebody else profit from my ground work and i have to park cars for a living, fuck that?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

38. Genetic disorder.

Her genes were exposed to high energy x-rays, she got cancer, and died before the Nobel committee decided to award the prize for the discovery of the structure of DNA.

Franklin, this Dr. Prasher guy, Chalfie, the Nobel selection committee, Toyota dealerships, grant proposals, Watson's ego, and outsourcing are seperate, non-overlapping issues.

[bean fidhleir]

17. And the poobahs wonder why it's hard to interest kids in science?

Yeah, right. Put in 4 years for the BS, 3 more for a meaningful doc, another 3 as a post-doc ...and then end up looking for work if nobody with money happens to be interested in your field.

[Fumesucker]

19. On the thread about H1B visas in LBN

There was someone telling us how difficult it was to hire Americans for science/technology jobs and how we had to have foreign help in those fields.

The deadliest BS is transparent and odorless.

[OhioChick]

20. I saw that.

No links, just here-say. (BS)

[bananas]

49. Must have been this thread

"US likely to tighten H-1B visa program"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3542022&mesg_id=3542022

[TZ]

26. Not necessarily

I work in the science field where the best quality people are hired..and there are ALOT of people I work with from overseas. IT ISN'T a myth that this country is short on well skilled science orientated folks. Its why, in ten years the longest I've gone without a job (while looking) is a month. My skills are in demand. And there aren't that many Americans qualified to do what I do.

[OhioChick]

28. Actually, it is a myth....

There are many studies out there that confirm this.

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.



http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

31. How many of those U.S. university degrees are being earned by foreign students?

I didn't see any reference to that in the article. A lot of foreign students come to the United States to earn their degrees as F-1s, get one year of paid work under their belts as F-1 OPTs (optional practical training) and then apply for H-1b visas. That's the typical progression, after which they apply for their green card through an employment or professions-based immigration category. In fact, there is a number of high school students from foreign countries who come over here on F-1s to get their U.S. high school diplomas and then enroll in U.S. universities.

I know this is just anecdotal but I'm an immigration attorney and I can't count the number of times that professors and department chairmen have sent me support letters for my I-140 immigrant cases for scientists and engineers that lament the fact they can't find enough American students who want to study such arcane but important subjects as metallurgical engineering and that they depend heavily upon foreign-born students.

Not all H-1bs are computer science diplomates working in the private sector. Look through the graduate departments for almost any discipline at a college or university and you'll find foreign students working as research associates on H-1b visas after they graduate and their F-1s expire. While in H-1b status, they are petitioning for green cards based on their professional abilities. I've handled hundreds of them.

Look at the research papers published in any field of science. Take, for example, the chemical sciences and The Journal Of The American Chemical Society. It's true that many papers are submitted from abroad, but most are submitted from researchers in American Universities. The number of foreign non-Anglo names of the authors of published articles in that journal including Chinese, Korean, and Japanese names is astounding. And it's true for many disciplines besides chemistry. The point is that I think we (i.e. American born citizens) are falling behind in science, engineering, and mathematics. The number of foreign students publishing and achieving major work while in American universities is significant.

[ChromeFoundry]

45. So, is your point...

American born citizens are lazy, and this is the reason that we are falling behind in the sciences? The only reasoning you stated seems to be that you believe American students don't wish to participate in these "arcane" subjects.

Or, do you think that the average American family cannot afford to dole out 100K for a degree that seems will be worthless in the US within a decade because most R&D budgets have been cut annually for more than 2-decades, and most of the remaining labs are being relocated offshore because those governments are willing to fund research and don't really care what happens to the environment?

I find it odd that there is such an influx of F-1 visas in the universities, many coming from nations where poverty is far worse than it is here. I am very curious as to how these students afford to attend. I understand that it is illegal for any non-citizen to receive any State/Federal Grant money, so our government helps those students out about as much as the citizens already here.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

46. I'm not talking about what I believe

In my post, I stated that it was the professors and department chairmen who were writing letters stating that often they could not find American citizens to fill research positions in arcane fields such as metallurgical engineering.

I don't think Americans are lazy. I think perhaps it is that Ph.D.s in the sciences and engineering are not seen by Americans as being as valuable as degrees in other fields such as medicine, law, finance, or business administration. We have a lot of MBAs in this country and probably too many lawyers. I think your point about the costs of earning a degree in America today is well-taken and may explain why some Americans prefer to invest their time in other fields that are seen as more remunerative and ones in which they can better pay off the massive students loans they must bear. I also think your point about the off-shoring of research may be a valid one, although I have no direct evidence of that in my work.

Most graduate departments in American universities have positions for postdoctoral researchers. These are individuals who have completed their studies and do not teach. They perform research, usually as "Key Personnel" (as they are listed) on the research grants of research professors. The pay is usually very low, maybe averaging somewhere between $20,000 and $30,000 a year. Often, they must be assigned to several funded research projects at the same time to keep them busy. Not very many Americans want to work for this low amount of money. Part of it has to do with the fact that aliens who earn their degree at American universities and who go on to apply for H-1bs as postdoctoral researchers through the same university are willing to work for a low amount of money while they prepare to file for a green card, which takes several years. Another part of it has to do with the fact that the federal funding agencies like the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health have grown accustomed to having very fine researchers work for low pay under these grants and don't fund them sufficiently. Often, the tenured professor who serves as the Principal Investigator does not receive compensation from the research grant in order to hire more key personnel. Of course, they get glory from it, by having their name appear first on the published research that makes its way into a professional journal, even though an alien may have done the bulk of the work beneath him. The aliens do receive salaries for working on federal grant projects under their H-1bs (with certain exceptions, F-1s cannot earn compensation while H-1b of course can). Also, there is a one-year period at the end of an alien's degree program and therefore at the end of an F-1 visa that allows the alien to earn a salary called optional practical training (OPT). Many aliens move into postdoc research associate positions bridging the gap between F-1 and H-1b through this OPT program.

The foreign students who come here are often the very cream of the crop. I have handled hundreds of Chinese researchers who come to the U.S. on F-1s to earn a Ph.D. at an American university. Often, they already have a Ph.D. from their own country and sometimes multiple Master's degrees in their field. Some of them have won national Chinese awards for research. Tsinghua University in China, for example, is a truly advanced and outstanding academic institution and we often get the top of the class from these Asian schools. Also, these foreign students do extremely well in American universities and obtain scholarships. They compete for scholarships in American schools in a very aggressive way. Anyone ambitious enough to leave their homeland, learn English, and compete successfully with native born Americans at a high level is someone who dedicates his/her heart and soul to their academic career. A lot of these students are not poor in their home countries but come from families that are well-off.

[ChromeFoundry]

47. Thanks for the follow up ...

I do make attempts to understand the motivation of foreigners in both the academic and working environments. This post was very informative, and does make a lot of sense.

[TZ]

34. Want to tell me why it takes forever for the companies I've worked for

To fill positions? And they resort to hiring underqualified people. Been in the field 15 years and I DEFY you to find any educator who says there is a "glut" of science professionals..
BTW..some other articles here
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/25/news/science.php
http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/2008/06/made-in-usa-scientific-innovation-on.html
http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=03hp5gr19z5sb0cdvhtsk5qgp3yhdttf

[OhioChick]

35. Salary, perhaps?

If that's the case as to why your company can't find U.S. employees:

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_visa_holders_earn_less.htm

I've been in the field for 15+ years and you're going to "DEFY" me? :rofl:

Did you see the Duke study posted above? It doesn't appear you did, so here's a recap:


Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-No-Shortage-of-US-Engineers/

The Science Education Myth
Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb20071025_827398.htm

Offshoring e-Newsletters
by Prof. Norman Matloff

http://www.eng-i.com/E-Newsletters.htm

Look Into Their Eyes
By: Fast Company
These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run.

Kyle Bonds
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Bonds, 44, was a contractor at IBM when he heard rumors of work moving abroad. Figuring his job could be next, he took a lower-paying but more secure post elsewhere.

"If I had stayed, you would be talking to a truck driver with a waitress wife."

Myra Bronstein
Mercer Island, Washington

Bronstein, a software engineer, says she had to train her offshore replacements herself or risk losing her severance package and unemployment eligibility.

"My industry just crashed and burned. I think it's shortsighted to try and get another job in this field."

Charles Buhrmann
Greenville, Texas

Before his position went to Canada, Buhrmann was a contractor for an insurance company's policy management system. Now he designs Web sites part-time for $8.50 an hour.

"If they're going to offer a job overseas for half the pay, why not offer it to the person here?"

Melissa Charters
Los Angeles, California

Charters had 15 years of experience in IT when her job as a system security administrator was outsourced, then offshored to India. She's becoming a home-economics teacher.

"How can our country's information stay secure when it's all being done over there?"

Lidia Estes
Bedford, Texas

Estes, 55, learned her job managing programmers with Computer Horizons was going to be offshored in late 2002. Now, the woman who has worked in IT since she was 19 sells Mary Kay Cosmetics.

"I don't know what to do. This has been my whole life."

Linda Evans
Matthews, North Carolina

In 2002, Evans's programmer husband was laid off and forced to train his Indian replacements. A new employer threatened to fire him after he was interviewed by a local paper.

"We never feel safe. When he gets called in for review, he thinks, 'This is it--it's all over today.' "

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profiles.html

There are pages and pages of unemployed U.S. workers on that site....Maybe your company should contact one of them......but then again, they're likely looking for someone with 15+ years experience and want to pay them 35K.

[MonteLukast]

52. Do they have any interest in MAKING any new "qualified" people?

Every qualified person starts out as unqualified.

You can't be in the field for 15 years if you don't break in, or stick around, in the first place.

Why exactly do employers want fully formed oak trees popping out of acorns? That's unrealistic, and totally within their power to change, unlike other economic factors we have to deal with.

[MonteLukast]

53. Oops. Dupe delete.

[Fumesucker]

32. What you say stands in direct contradiction to the OP.

If there were so many science jobs going unfilled then the scientist in the OP would not be driving a courtesy vehicle for $10/hr.

[TZ]

33. We don't know that

No where in that article does it state WHY he is not in the sciences....He could probably relocate to somewhere else and get a job in the private sector with his background. He may not want to do that.
So, the fact that I have 15 years in this field counts for nothing does it? Believe me finding qualified EXPERIENCED people in this field can be tough. There are probably more people from other countries in my department than american born. Do you not think there is a REASON for that? Especially as the problem with some is understanding their English with thick accents?
I have never heard anybody in the sciences complain about too many americans in the field! Its the opposite! Less and less Americans go into the math and sciences every year..its a HUGE problem.
Thats why these other countries are becoming more and more prominent in scientific discovery.

[LisaL]

36. The article says his grant expired, and he couldn't continue with

his research.
I kind of doubt he prefers working for 10 $ per hour to working in a private sector. Which suggests to me he probably couldn't find another job in his field after his grant was over.

[OhioChick]

37. Bingo! n/t

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. You're confusing grants with employment.

Two different things.

[LisaL]

40. Hah?

First of all, try to find employment in academia as a PI if you don't have a grant. Second of all, try to get tenure in an academic institution if you don't have a grant.
And then we will talk.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

42. You're setting up a false dichotomy...

between a tenure-track position and working for a Toyota dealership.

[LisaL]

43. You've lost me completely.

You don't need a grant to work at Toyota dealership. WTF does it have to do with this guy losing his grant and as a result not able to continue with his research, I got no clue.
If he had no grants, then he would not be given tenure (most likely), and would not be able to hold his position. What exactly is your problem with this premise?

[LisaL]

44. And by the way, do read this.

Just as I thought, after his funding run out, he was not given tenure.
Hello?
He is not able to find a job in science as of now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Prasher

[seleff]

51. Complicated

I can relate to his plight. I have been in his shoes. Without a solid NIH grant renewed I came up for tenure in a top 5 medical school. I had had some pretty visible research published and it got me to the 12%ile but payline was at 8-10% at the time. I could have looked for a faculty position elsewhere in the country, getting new startup $ and probably have landed somewhere in a second or third tier university, where I think it is even harder to make it on grants. Also, my spouse is a PhD and had employment and family in the area we were living. I was fortnate to find a position in biotech industry that paid more, but encouraged teamwork and iwould say there it is easy to become symbiotic with the institution. After we were acquired 5 yrs later, and our program was iced, I found myself back on the job market, now a bit labeled as having a more narrow set of skills (what did you do for us lately). I had an offer that involved relocation into a yet more costly housing market and my wife was being recruited to an academic position across country. We took her job and the University hired me into a soft money position which means I had 2 yrs to raise about 250,000/yr of Federal grant money (plus a little private $) to be able to pay my own salary and fund a technician/student or two. When my grants came back rejected, I emotionally folded (depression like the guy in the OP) as now I was in the part of the country with little biotech/pharma and my wife was in a tenure track position, and we were not going to do one of those 2-city things with 3 school age kids (i had an offer or 2 in cities 500 miles away). If you know many scientists, while some are self-confident and have solid egos, many if not most suffer from a great deal of self-doubt, even ones viewed as being quite successful.
Flash forward 8 yrs, and to feel self worth, I took on Science teaching, much of it in schools where students had little interest in science. We've now relocated to an area with lots of big pharma and biotech and colleges. Ironically, my HS Science certification did not transfer so now I teach college as a part-timer with a full-time load and no benefits. I am making the least money of my adult life (except when I've been unemployed). Consulting with industry consultants, the conclusion was that being out of research for 7 yrs now, that I would probablly not be qualified for a research job in industry. Maybe in clinical research, I'm investigating. I feel like I've been through too much to be easily directed as a technician, although my knowledge base is so deteriorated, I would feel very weak trying to plunge in as a project director and thought leader. I expect that there are a lot of talented and qualified folks available, who however, have had setbacks and may get viewed by HR as checkered or even toxic rather than as "diamonds in the rough". Probably just easier to hire a 30 something PhD from abroad or who have completed one post-doc in the US. Like I say, it's complicated

[MonteLukast]

55. "Fundraising"... so that's even the case in science now, eh?

So even scientists find that the most important part of their job is hustling for money. :banghead:

I tried to break in with a local non-profit a couple of years ago, but that ONLY entry in, was as a door-to-door fundraiser. Like they want you to prove your money-making prowess before doing ANYTHING else.

I proved a complete wash-out at it. How exactly do they expect people who want to sit down and eat dinner, in a bad economy, to just hand you cash at the door? I would've been a kick-ass researcher, navigator, and office person... but no, the only entry portal in was the getting cash in hand at the door.

And they wonder why so many people wash out of non-profits.

And now you even have to be a slick salesman or desperate money-beggar for SCIENCE. :banghead:

That's the problem with the whole economy: there's only one type of job left any more, and that's SALESMAN. Even in science.

[alarimer]

58. A lot of that might have to do with the state of science education in this country.

Coupled with the idea that "science is hard" and certainly not where the money is.

I think the problem is complex. One, foreigners can be cheaper to hire and retain. The H1B visa program allows companies to hire these people at less than what an American might demand or expect to be paid (and actually SHOULD be paid) while not really losing anything in terms of ability.

Then there are the well-known problems in attracting students to science careers. The length of time and the cost required to get a PHD (which is is primariy why it took me 7 years to get a masters)is prohibitive, while foreign students are often paid by their home countries to come to school in the US, which does have some of the best universities in the world. Some of the problem is societal, in that we do not really value intellect as much as money. Science jobs (especially entry-level, and unless you have an advanced degree, you will remain at the technical or entry-level position) do not generally pay as well as other fields. It is also very difficult to get a tenured position anywhere. There tends to be a lot of competition.

And then there is the abysmal state of elementary and high-school science education in this country. We are still arguing over evolution! The Texas school board has just appointed people from the Discovery Institute to a committee on textbooks (one of which they conveniently wrote based on ID!). So we are falling behind other, more rational, less religiously insane nations.

[FarCenter]

30. Funding for science research in the US is fundmentally broken

Small research groups centered on Principle Investigators who spend too much time fighting for relatively small grants is a highly inefficient way to fund science.

The competitive nature of the funding means that large projects, requiring the cooperation and efforts of larger numbers of scientists and supporting staffs are hard or impossible to get done. Meanwhile, the funds in each area, thinly sliced and distributed among competing groups at many research universities and institutions are frittered away on small efforts.

[MonteLukast]

56. If science got more gov't money...

... all of US could do our scientific WORK instead of having to spend our working day begging donors for money.

[leftofthedial]

50. That's wonderful! How uniquely American!

Love,

king george
and the repukes

[aikoaiko]

54. Odd, but even an entry level professorship would pay more at a state university than Toyota.