Community torn apart by SC immigration raid

[AlphaCentauri]

Source: AP

When Magdalana Domingo Ramirez Lopez moved to this South Carolina city nearly two years ago to work at the chicken processing plant, she felt at home.

On weekends, the neighborhood near House of Raeford's plant was filled with the sounds of salsa music and the scents of Guatemalan cooking. She would shop with her three young sons at nearby businesses that catered to the immigrants — some in the country legally, others not.

While the sights and sounds reminded Lopez of her native Guatemala, she said she was happy living in the United States — a place that offered a better life for her family.

But those hopes were shattered Tuesday when federal agents swooped into the plant, arresting 330 suspected illegal immigrants, six of them juveniles, effectively shutting down the factory and tearing apart the close-knit community.



Read more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jO9WZoMijd4RZonKDKU4OabjtjkgD93MN79O4

[ORDagnabbit]

1. 330 more jobs for legal immigrants or citizens....

will they punish the business owner?

of course not.

[AlphaCentauri]

14. and many kids condemn to misery, "First you kill me, then I'll sign it." Magdalana Domingo Ramirez

from the article

When immigration officials asked her to sign a deportation order, she said she refused, replying: "First you kill me, then I'll sign it."

[littlebit]

38. If I am not mistaken

They have already arrested seven people for falsifying documents.

[proud2BlibKansan]

84. The article says they shut down the factory

So now no one has a job.

[spag68]

2. This is sad

What is that inscription on the statue of liberty? I guess it don't mean crap now anyway.

[EFerrari]

3. These big raids are really scary in a number of ways.

The people in custody never are treated well.

And mass arrests aren't good for any of us.

/oops

[SemperEadem]

4. I believe that the Statue of Liberty on Ellis Island

was the legal point of entry for people who came to this country the way in which it was set up. Come in legally. That is all that is asked.

[EFerrari]

5. What an incredibly callous response to a horrible traumatic event.

Maybe if the United States hadn't tanked Guatemala's democratic government in order to prop up murderers that would allow us to turn it into a landing strip, these people would have a reason to stay home, no?

Legal, my @ss. The slavers were full of "legal" cargo and what we did to Guatemala wasn't "legal".

[Lasher]

9. The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor

Do I get to go to Japan without bothering to get permission from the Japanese government?

[EFerrari]

29. The Japanese didn't overthrow our government

and prop up rightwing dictators for decades while they sacked the country.

[Sequoia]

82. Our government wanted them to attack us so we could get into the war.

You should educate yourself by actually reading a book instead of relying on Fox News.

[provis99]

7. plenty of illegals at Ellice Island too, especially Italians

why do you think Italians were called W.O.P.s? With Out Papers. The Italians threw their passports overboard from the ships, so they could enter illegally and not be deported.

I imagine other European ethnic groups did similar things (without being crucified with racial slurs, too).

Illegal immigration is nothing new to America

[happyslug]

55. But the Ships had to take rejected immigrants back for free

Thus the problem was NOT being deported as you exited the ship, for if the Government rejected you for any reason you had to go back home at the ship owners expensive. Thus in the years just before WWI the Germans decided to feed and give medical exams and treatments to the people they shipped over, less chance of being rejected as the ship docked in New York Harbor.

Thus "WOP" may have been used by some people as being "Without papers" but being without papers did NOT mean you could stay in the US, the US Authorities never left such people off the boat. Even Wikipedia rejects that definition. For Wikipedia Definition see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wop

Especially the reference to the fact it was already in common use by 1910, but papers were NOT required till 1921.

For other sources of the term NOT a contraction for "Without Papers":
http://kpearson.faculty.tcnj.edu/Dictionary/wop.htm

[AlphaCentauri]

13. The Statue of Liberty has been a nice propaganda symbol

with fascist manipulating the government at all levels, it may not mean anything anymore

[LeftHander]

16. Yeah well.....they would be turning people away now....

Leaving them locked for months...or trapped in a quagmire of paper and then sending them home separate from family.

These raids are racism pure and simple.

[obamaforme]

23. I had to come into the USA legally and had to learn the language fast

I had enough respect for the law of the land to come here going through the strict immigration process. I also respected the English language and I feel a slap in the face at the boldness of some illegals. Now a days, illegals expect us to learn their language. Instead of being grateful for what is given to them, they complain. Now that is bold. Give me a break.

[EFerrari]

34. You forgot that they rape our women and steal our cars.

:puke:

[obamaforme]

61. Our community is being overrun with Illegals and they leave lots of trash everywhere

Beer cans and bottles, (Corona) other trash, cigarette butts, etc. Not only that their children are noisy, tearing down benches, and shrubs. That in turn will raise our condo fee to replace and repair these items. We had a murder here last week in our community that appears to be drug related. I guess I be moving soon.

[a la izquierda]

73. Hmm, you're bordering on the racist, buddy.

Watch it.

[EFerrari]

77. They are dirty, their children behave badly and the crime rate has gone up!

I think that's the whole list!

[AlphaCentauri]

60. Spanish is been spoken in America for about 500 years

it surely deserve respect

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

67. Correcting the Myths about U.S. Spanish, spoken since 1513

MYTH #1: Spanish in the United States in purely a function of immigration in the 20th and 21st centuries .
REALITY: Spanish has been spoken in the United States as long or longer than English.

MYTH #2: Spanish in the United States is a monolithic entity and is not characterized by the same amount of variation as American English.

REALITY: Spanish in the United States is highly diverse and exhibits a wide array of variation regionally, ethnically and socially. Variation in the Spanish of the United States is due to the results of a founder effect, later immigration from across the Spanish diaspora, and sociolinguistic variables such as ethnicity, socioeconomic status, age and gender.

MYTH #3: Spanish language use in the United States presents a threat to the use of English.

REALITY: The use of Spanish by Hispanics poses no threat to the dominance of English in the United States. Spanish and English have coexisted in this country for nearly 400 years.

http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/americanvarieties/spanglish/usa/

[a la izquierda]

72. I'm expected to learn another language in the US?

Give me a small frickin' break. Puh-lease.

Edit for clarity and irony: I choose to learn other languages so that I can be better educated. and yes, whomever suggested that Spanish has been spoken here since Europeans arrived on what is now the US is absolutely correct. Actually, it was spoken BEFORE ENGLISH, so perhaps you should learn a little history too...

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. Erm...the Statue of Liberty is not on Ellis Island.

It is on Liberty Island. Please, get your facts straight.

Ellis Island is now closed for immigration purposes. Nice thought though.

[a la izquierda]

71. Go to Mexico. See the abject poverty.

Get a lesson in humanity. Then perhaps you may ease your tone a little. I live in Mexico. I see it daily, and I live in one of the rich cities. Women live on the streets with kids. KIDS, for gosh sakes. They live off nothing but what people give them, and it isn't a whole hell of a lot.

The lack of humanity for fellow man on here astounds me. I support American workers and buy American when I can...but I'm a humanist too.


Then, take a turn south and go to Guatemala...worse there.

[Sequoia]

81. Oh sure, people from South American are going to go thru Ellis Island.

We are responsible for destroying the economy of many countries south of the border and we sure aren't helping them to want to stay. Open your eyes.

[proud2BlibKansan]

85. And the ones who can' t just come legally?

[Eurobabe]

6. Pretty soon the people in the US will be eating dirt and grass too

if the economy keeps tanking.

[harmonicon]

8. if anyone really wanted to stop this sort of immigration....

they wouldn't have to arrest 330, but just one: the owner of the business who hired these people. This sort of raid does nothing to change immigration, it only insures that there is always a fresh crop of immigrants willing to work for low wages, and that those who have been at a job for some time will be afraid to speak up to get higher wages or better working conditions. Don't believe these fuckers for one second who would claim that these raids are good and stop "illegal" immigration. They do the opposite, and the powerful know that and thus support them, all the while convincing the ignorant that they're looking out for the interests of the working poor in America. If for just a moment, all of the working poor in the US realized that no matter their race, language, or immigration status, they were all after the same things and that they enemy was their elite capitalist bosses, shit would hit the fan.

[Sherman A1]

10. Precisely

It is the business owner who enticed these folks directly or indirectly to be here. I have absolutely nothing against anyone trying to improve their lot in life and applaud their effort to do so. I also believe that they too violated US law by entering the country illegally and they should suffer some consequence for that violation. However, this can be stopped in less than twelve months by putting the business owners on notice that if there is a raid and any undocumented workers are found, then it will be the business owner who goes to jail and the business will be seized (just as drug related assets are seized). Put up a list of the first 100 businesses that will be audited and give them 12 months to prepare. Then conduct the audits, followed by random ones and the illegal problem will end, as no undocumented workers will be found.

In conjunction with this audit program, an enforceable and realistic guest worker program needs to be implemented that allows the economy to grow with the talents needed from abroad.

Overall the burden of punishment needs to fall upon the employer and not the workers. If the jobs become unavailable then the incentive is removed and the problem self corrects without the dumb idea of a border fence.

[mikita]

12. well said...

thanks. I wish people really understood this.....

[cherokeeprogressive]

33. Bullshit. If the gubmint arrested EVERY employer of an "illegal", and EVERY job dried up...

The practice would be called xenophobic and racist.

[EFerrari]

35. Huh? That's some logic there. No, it's better for the vultures

to mass arrest helpless people -- more money in it for the prison industry.

[wildbilln864]

47. You labeled your post correctly at least...

it was bullshit. Thanks for the alert first.

Any employer that breaks the law should be arrested and fined! If you're going to arrest the illegal foreigners. You should arrest their accomplices also if they knowingly hired them. They're the reason they come here in the first place. For jobs.

[Gwendolyn]

51. Short and sweet... that's exactly the way it works!

[Flagg]

11. With the current economic mess, I really fear for illegal immigrants in the US

[obamaforme]

25. They are part of the problem, draining our social service systems,

[wildbilln864]

50. Iraq is the problem....

Corporate and government corruption is the problem. Trillions to already wealthy millionaires is the problem.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[2speak]

15. What the hell just open the borders and let anyone in.

Checking their backgrounds or medical history isn't necessary. Let millions come in without regulation. We have plenty of money here to provide medical, schools etc. National Security isn't a problem we've got that covered halfway across the world with Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess your going to take some into your home because they have a hardship that we Americans certainly can not have right. Call her up right now and invite her into your home if you feel that bad about it. I bet you won't. Well I'm your room mate here in this country. I do not want anyone entering in this country illegally, no reason, no way, no how. I care about my fellow Americans first and foremost and you need to also.

[LostinVA]

17. oh brother

:eyes:

[2speak]

20. OH Sis

[Canuckistanian]

18. Wait, don't tell me - you're a "patriotic Christian", right?

Boy are you in the wrong place.

Enjoy your stay.

[2speak]

21. No I am a logical agnostic

and your in the wrong place and the person below me agrees.

[Canuckistanian]

27. And apparently not a very compasssionate one.

And I don't care about "the person below you".

I don't change my opinion just to run with the crowd.

[2speak]

31. You are not the compassionate one

if you stood by the laws of our country and the laws of your fellow Americans then this would not have happened. She would not have suffered this incident because she would still be in her country or would have immigrated legally. You know nothing about compassion. You lead people astray with this nonsense. Sure I have plenty of compassion, she needs help to get back to her country and then try to get back in the US legally. But now since she has done it illegally her chances are greatly diminished and or there will be a 2 yr limit on her. Good logical thinking. Promote legal immigration not illegal immigration.

[Canuckistanian]

32. Let me put it to you this way

You're born a dirt-poor peasant in Mexico or Nicaragua or Guatemala. You have nothing. Prices are increasing and your family is going hungry. Your leaders don't care - there's been a series of brutal dictators lording over you your whole life.

Then, you hear about a cousin who left a few years ago. He's got a job making $6/hr and he's got a nice clean apartment in AMERICA! The land of money!

Now you're ambivalent about America. You've stood on the loading docks watching the wealth of your country being shipped away in the form of sugar cane, minerals or textiles. SOMEBODY is getting rich and it ain't you.

So you hatch a plan with a local broker who says he can get you to one of those jobs - and he has the connections. For a small fee, of course. It takes 6 months to save up the money.

What choice do you have? You need to feed your family. You know it's dangerous and illegal, but you hear a lot of stories about people who made it out of the hellhole you live in.

So, you strike out on a dangerous journey, dodging Mexican federales and American Border Patrols.
A lot don't make it. They are either sent back or jailed or even killed.

But you finally make it. You're met near the border by a nice man who promises a good job and housing, and transportation. Whoopee! Success! BUT, the man warns you, keep your head down, be careful. Just work and keep your mouth shut. There are those who hate you and will turn you in to ICE. Or worse.

So, you work. And work. And work. Feeling tired? Too bad. Sick? Sorry, out of luck. Got a problem with your boss? Suck it up.

As long as you work, you'll be safe. The bosses protect good workers. And there are people who protect those bosses, because cheap labor means more $$$ in the pocket.

Is this an ideal solution? Of course not. But like it or not, the economy DEPENDS on these "illegals".
Without them, your food would cost more, restaurants would be too expensive and a thousand other services would be as well.

But pouring all the blame on the "illegals" gets you nowhere. Until this problem is solved SYSTEMATICALLY, nothing is going to change.

[2speak]

41. This could be our country soon if we don't get the guts

to stand up and say and do something about it. They need to get a say in their government just like we do.

[EFerrari]

40. Tell you what: Go back in time to where the United States

decided that Guatemala couldn't have a democracy because that would be very, very bad for American interests.

Go back to the time before Guatemala simply became another field on the American plantation.

Where this lady would have had access to a representative government, social services and a health economy.

Oops! Can't do that. But I'm sure you have a TON of compassion for the poor First Americans that we slaughtered in Guatemala even as we ransacked their country. Sure you do.

You better hope they never sue us at the ICC. Because we're guilty as hell. That wasn't "legal", either. Your nationalism isn't worth a dime up against the kind of crimes we have committed in Guatemala. And your opinion is not worth more than the opinion of this one woman.

[2speak]

42. I couldn't agree with you more that OUR government

should stay the hell out of other countries affairs.

[EFerrari]

44. Check it out: every time there is a spike of illegal immigration

from a Latin American country, we've just f#cked those people over.

We had a big spike of Central American immigrants here during our dirty, illegal war against Nicaragua and El Salvador in the 80s, for example.

Those people WANT to stay home. Most of them don't WANT to come here. We level their homes and we give them no choice. And then, once they make it here somehow, we vilify them. It's shameful, really.

I've known many of these people. Only a very few wanted to come here in the first place. They've filled my ear with stories of their home, their family, their places. It's very sad to me.

[2speak]

46. Don't take me wrong, I feel for them but I think I should feel

anger first that my government is doing this to those people and they need to cease and desist immediately with other countries affairs.

[LostinVA]

28. Are you series, or preaching to the quier???

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

19. Bosses were arrested too, according to LA Times article

Excerpt:

Federal officials earlier this year arrested 12 supervisors at the plant. Eleven of them, all Mexican men, were illegal immigrants who were charged with aggravated identity theft and making false statements.

Seven have pleaded guilty and are awaiting sentencing.

The twelfth was a human resources manager, Elaine Crump, 48. She was indicted on 20 counts of filing false federal identification forms.


Here's the link to the story... http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-raid8-2008oct08,0,2667605.story

The problem, in this case, is that you had supervisors and an HR person who were filing knowingly FALSE federal identification forms (such as the I-9 with possibly fraudulent SS cards) and the supervisors were charged with aggravated identity theft, which means the illegal workers were using either fake social security numbers or numbers that belong to someone else.

As a victim of ID theft, the effect that this has on your credit is devastating.

[DemoTex]

22. I posted on seeing the DHS buses blow into town (Greenville, SC) for this raid on Tuesday.

Immigration is a hot topic in this GOP and Fundy bastion (upstate SC). I don't think it's coincidental that this raid happened here one month before the general elections. It's a little red meat for the GOP base, depraved as it is.

[wvbygod]

24. Are we a nation of laws or not?

It's not that hard to understand. Follow the law and you can enjoy your stay.
Break the law and you can be deported if you are not a citizen. It's the same in
just about every country on Earth.

If I were to sneak in and shack up in Holland, groove on some Floyd and bake some homegrown, I
would always be up for deportation for entering illegally.

[obamaforme]

26. Precisely!

[2speak]

30. You are correct. As you can see in my post above others

would disagree with you. I however agree with this fully.

[EFerrari]

36. And in every country on Earth, the powerful write the law and

exploit it for their financial benefit.

It's not that hard to understand.

You fund someone to bring in undocumented workers from a country you have decimated, you pay them nothing, you detain them when it's convenient (in conditions that violate both US and international law) and shampoo, rinse and repeat.

That's exactly what they did in NOLA. It's standard business practice in this country.

You guys who blame other working people for this situation amaze me. Do none of you know anything about US history? Do none of you know this country was founded on a genocide and built by slaves? Do you not understand that the humiliation of any worker makes ALL workers more helpless?

Seriously. As long as you believe you are somehow more privileged than the other guy, your lives will continue to get worse.

[NNN0LHI]

37. At the rate "this country" is going we are going to have Americans swimming to Mexico soon

If you are one of them I hope you get treated better than you would treat them.

Don

[2speak]

43. You can swim to Mexico but there is nothing there for me.

Because I think that people should enter this country legally that means that I am treating them unfairly. That I am treating them unfairly. OK just where is your home and I'll come visiting you uninvited.

[EFerrari]

45. When you level someone's home, you put your own at risk.

That's what we have done in Latin America. It's really that simple.

[2speak]

48. Couldn't agree more.

[NNN0LHI]

49. You would be the first one in the water if you were starving

You ain't shitting nobody.

Don

[2speak]

53. I learned how to survive off the land from the US Army

and Don I don't care to shit you because you would be way to big for that.

[AlphaCentauri]

62. he he! entering illegally to occupied other countries?

[2speak]

65. All countries are occupied? No I did not have the misfortune

to leave my country but I was trained to do so.

[AlphaCentauri]

70. there are lucky soldiers and others not so lucky like my cousin

our president was one of the lucky ones

[a la izquierda]

74. Right on.

People treat me great here. I will probably apply to become a dual national. At the very least, my kids will be born here to save them from the potential mess people like the folks in Jesus Camp could create in 20 years from now.

[2speak]

52. The thread has divided into two issues.

One being that illegal immigration is well illegal.
Two being that our government has put their nose in other countries business.

I have compassion for those that have to leave their country because of our influence in any way. To truly have compassion for these people you must go directly to the source of their misfortune. Having empathy for them having to go back home isn't what they need. They need you to reign in your government to stop this madness. To me that is having true compassion for these people.

[EFerrari]

54. The Republicans fan the whole "illegal" talking point and you know what's funny?

Most of the people driven north are Catholics. We can't even skip a morning prayer without feeling guilty, let alone "breaking into someone's home". :scared:

The idea that all these people feel "entitled" to come here is just not true. But that's how it's sold to the right wing.

Culturally, most of these people will give you wrong directions to a gas station before they / we will tell you we don't know -- because that would be rude. The idea of breaking into someone's "home" is just too awful to even consider.

And *that's* the folks the right wing are using to distract us from their own predations.



:shrug:

[countryjake]

56. It's solely one issue...the USA oppresses the working class, everywhere...

Simply, do you have compassion for your Imperialist masters, who survive only by profiting from the misery of working people all over the world?

Or, do you stand up for and sympathize with those who suffer the effects of that oppression...working people, everywhere?

Should working people identify with those who labor, elbow to elbow beside them, or with the bastard cracking the whip, reaping riches from their sweat?

[EFerrari]

57. Of course. This is the bigger frame. Thanks, countryjake. n/t

[countryjake]

58. Las hermanas en la lucha!

:hi:

[EFerrari]

59. Kicking, kicking, kicking with gusto!

:hi:

[AlphaCentauri]

66. No Nos Moveran

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OoBxxteWsc

nice song

[a la izquierda]

75. Can I join?

I'm studying the fight. In Mexico.
I'm probably scary to some on this thread.

[EFerrari]

80. Think of it as encouraging good circulation of the blood.

lol

:toast:

I envy you. The last time I was in Guadalajara was for the Mundial. My mom spent an afternoon with me at the Mercado Libertad. She pretended to pose for me so I could picture of faces. :)

[2speak]

68. No, if you enter this country illegally you will be sent back to

where you came from. That in no way says I condone anything my government does other than this one issue. If you move in next to me and have done so illegally I will report you. Don't come into my country illegally. I have Bosnian neighbors to my left and Chinese behind me. We have BBQ'd together. Your spinning of feeling sorry for those who come to the US illegally won't work.

[obamaforme]

69. The nerve of these people never ceases to amaze me.

[a la izquierda]

76. And your sig line

amazes me. You quote Gandhi. Ironic.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lance_Boyle]

83. whose country did Ghandi enter illegally ? n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

86. He was a lawbreaker and wasn't living in his country but a british colony n/t

[EFerrari]

79. You need to change your signature line immediately or

read it for comprehension.