You know, one could probably learn a lot from Bill Ayers.

[laststeamtrain]

What the hell could you learn from five sleazoid pols?

[cali]

1. Many people have learned a lot from Ayers

He's a well regarded expert in early childhood ed, and his books and texts are widely used in colleges across the country.

On the other hand, I think John Glenn is more than simply a sleazoid politician.

[laststeamtrain]

5. That's right. JG is not just a sleazoid pol. He's also an Urban Spaceman. n/t

[samuraiguppy]

2. I consider Ayers a patriot.

[DangerDave921]

3. So right

Bombing governmental buildings is so cool. (sarcasm)

The guy is a total tool. The wife too. Praising Charles Manson? That's just f'ed up.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Under the right circumstances... nt

[samuraiguppy]

6. protesting an evil imperialistic racist war?

you bet your ass he was a patriot.

And don't bring Manson into this, another victim of the 60's..

a time when so many good people were trying to do their best to protest that evil war while cowardly CRIMINAL thugs like McJerk were off killing women and children.

And now the killers are called war heros---it makes me so ashamed

[cali]

8. what a crock. Manson, a victim of the 60's? LOL.

And sorry, much of what Ayers did was sophmoric bullshit. Call him a patriot all you wish- I think all that drivel about patriots is bullshit whatever side it comes from- but it doesn't change that the Weathermen committed violent acts that were contemptible. As an academic, I think he deserves respect. As a commentator of current affairs, I think he's still sophmoric and as a Weatherman, I think he was a rich brat playing revolutionary.

[DangerDave921]

10. Manson a victim of the 1960's??? LOL

How exactly was Charlie a victim? Did someone make him hatch his deranged plan to kill people? Did someone make him and his freak followers butcher those seven people in their homes?

Please explain how he was a victim.

[samuraiguppy]

14. as a student at one of the Ca

state universities-I took a course on the 60's. My professor spent more than a week on Manson and brought up lots of good points about how brilliant and misunderstood he is.

But I realize this is not a popular viewpoint--and I do acknowledge that Manson is a convicted criminal. (although I have to point out that he did NOT personally hurt anyone and I definitely think he has served his debt to society and should be paroled--but that would be the subject of another thread).

My problem is that the really bad guys from the 60's (guys like McCain) are NOT in prison. I am sure that McCain killed many more people than Manson--innocent people. yet he is in the Senate. How can a person like him even think of running for president? He was a psycho killer. That is my point.

[cali]

17. he was a murderous little psycho

he's where he should be. he'll die there and that's fine. And sorry, much as I detest McCain, I reject your simple minded conclusion that anyone who fought in Vietnam is nothing but a murderer. By your standards, John KJerry is just a bad guy.

[DangerDave921]

21. Good point about Kerry

Lord how I hate being lectured by some know-it-all who took a class in something.

[DangerDave921]

20. Great

You took a course on the 1960's and listened to some ivory tower guy lecture about how cool Charlie Manson was. Spare me the details about how brilliant he was. The guy needs to stay in prison till he is dead.

Of course he personally hurt people. He actually planned the whole thing to butcher those people. He organized it, formulated the plan, instructed his followers what to do. Under the law, that is the same thing as actually holding the knife.

Please grow up and acknowledge evil and murder when you see it. Otherwise you lose all credibility.

[samuraiguppy]

35. hmmm I was told that his main crime was

questioning the norms of society. Have to admit that I was not around at that time....the professor who taught the course is an acknowledged expert on the 60's. I won't put his name out here--but the school was Chico State about 10 years ago.

We wrote an essay on the brilliance of Manson....still have mine....

[Raskolnik]

36. Yeah, those pesky norms of not butchering people are a *drag*

[DangerDave921]

37. LOL

I guess John Wayne Gacy was a victim too. He couldn't conform to society's dictates about not buggering young boys, torturing them, and killing them, and then burying them in his crawl space. And Dahmer had to challenge society's norms about not killing and eating people.

[DangerDave921]

38. Read Bugliosi

He prosecuted Manson and the family. You will get the whole story.

Sorry if I'm treating you unkindly. Sure, Manson questioned the norms of society. He wanted to create a storm whereby the blacks would rise up and attack/kill white establishment. Charlie wanted to end so-called normal society. Why? Who knows. Some think he imagined himself the leader of the new world.

In reality, Charlie was a mentally unstable man who had a terribly hard, abusive life. He was messianic in temperament. He was a petty criminal who lived most of his life in prison. And he engineered the brutal slaughter of at least seven people in an effort to create his societal uprising. Sharon Tate was pregnant at the time, and her killer stabbed her repeatedly, killing her unborn baby. They glorified in the gore and brutality.

Please read about Manson and his awful deeds.

[Dorian Gray]

54. Did he (your prof?) bother to mention

the MURDER of Sharon Tate which he planned in the hopes of INSTIGATING a racial war in the US?

Or did he just spend time waxing on about the counter-cultural brilliance (hah) of Charles Manson?

[Morrisons Ghost]

44. Charlie may not have been

Charged with personally killing anyone himself,but there are alot of people who witnessed him kill at least two different people personally. Btw...Charlie is right where he belongs and he doesn't want out of prison. He has said he doesn't want out because he can't hack it in the real world.

[Dorian Gray]

53. LOL

Of course! You spent a week studying Charles Manson in your course on the 60s.

[samuraiguppy]

16. as a student at one of the Ca

state universities-I took a course on the 60's. My professor spent more than a week on Manson and brought up lots of good points about how brilliant and misunderstood he is.

But I realize this is not a popular viewpoint--and I do acknowledge that Manson is a convicted criminal. (although I have to point out that he did NOT personally hurt anyone and I definitely think he has served his debt to society and should be paroled--but that would be the subject of another thread).

My problem is that the really bad guys from the 60's (guys like McCain) are NOT in prison. I am sure that McCain killed many more people than Manson--innocent people. yet he is in the Senate. How can a person like him even think of running for president? He was a psycho killer. That is my point.

[RaleighNCDUer]

40. Manson was a victim of his upbringing, not of the 60s.

Abused as a child, if anyone was ever born to be a criminal, it was he. And though he did not directly murder anyone in the Tate/LaBianca murders, there were at least 3 of his followers who 'disappeared' into the desert - and he was happy to let his followers believe he had killed them for being disloyal. He took damaged kids and exercised surprisingly sophisticated brainwashing techniques with them, using drugs and strongly qualified 'affection' - meaning, the threat of removing that affection was always a threat, which made them willing to do almost anything to keep that 'affection'. In another time and place, he could have been a Hitler.

That said, there's a world of difference between Ayers, who was acting (misguidedly, perhaps) out of an honest passion to stop the war - who, in fact, was never convicted of any crime, and never injured anyone with the bombings he was involved with - and McCain who DID follow orders and bomb unknown numbers of women and children in his bombing raids in support of a war that should have never been fought.

[Dorian Gray]

52. In what way

could you possibly call Manson a VICTIM?

Of all the foolish statements that I've read on DU, that has to be the most ridiculous.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. This guy blew up a few government building.

Frankly, kid, callingt Ayers a tool and comparing him to Manson says a lot more about you than it does about Ayers.

[DangerDave921]

9. I did not compare him to Manson

Ayers' wife praised what good ol' Charlie did.

Sorry, I don't agree with bombing government buildings just because you disagree with governmental policy. If so, then I guess you won't mind when some RW nutjob bombs buildings after Obama is president. Would that be OK with you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

15. No.

Do you consider George Washington an unpatriotic terrorist?

[DangerDave921]

24. No I don't

Are you going to tell me that Ayers is the equivalent of George Washington? Hold on, let me steady myself before I start laughing so hard I fall down.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

26. OK, so you admit...

There are good reasons and good excuses for blowing up government buildings.

So what argument again are you using against Ayers?

[DangerDave921]

32. Reasons

Yes there can be good reasons to blow up buildings. What are those exact criteria when it is permissible? Let's ask the philosophers.

Of course you can analogize Ayers to the minutemen fighting the tyranny of the oppressive British government. If that's your view, then yes -- he is a hero. I don't see him that way. I see him as a mere protestor who decided to bomb buildings to get attention and make a statement. I don't think his reasons rose to the level of engingeering a new government to break away from the British crown.

And once we start excusing domestic terror, then we have to accept it no matter who does it. Should Timothy McVeigh be hailed as a hero? He sure was expressing his displeasure with the government.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

33. You keep contradicting yourself.

Get back to me when you figure yourself out.

[DangerDave921]

39. not sure what you mean

Your logic seems to be: George Washington blew up buildings. William Ayers blew up buildings. Hence, William Ayers is a hero like George Washington.

[RaleighNCDUer]

41. Ayers' act was more like the Boston Tea Party -

no intent to overthrow the government, but destruction of property to make an undeniable political point ('undeniable' meaning, one that could not be ignored). Nobody was injured, but there was considerable property damage. As with the BTP, it was meant to get the attention of an unresponsive government, and as with the BTP there were many, many people who thought the action undermined the 'serious' work that others were doing with their petitions and appeals for redress.

The Weathermen were the fucking Sons of Liberty. Ayers = Paul Revere.

[cali]

42. what nonsense.

he was a sophmoric rich kid who fancied himself as a revolutionary. his rhetoric sucked, and there's little doubt that at one time he had no problem whatsofucking ever inflicting griewous bodily harm on targets that he so lordly saw as being enemies of the revolution.

[RaleighNCDUer]

43. No problem at all --

that's why he insisted that the bombs be set to detonate at times when there would be nobody around.

You know, he could easily have done otherwise. Do you say he was 'playing' at revolutionary because he DIDN'T kill anyone? Would engaging in wholesale murder and mayhem make him a 'real' revolutionary? What makes for a 'real' revolutionary?

Or was he just so frustrated by the lack of effect that normal protests were having that he decided the only way to get a response was to kick it up a level? Remember, Nixon was reelected by an overwhelming majority in '72 - and that, after the most massive protests this country has ever seen. You are aware, aren't you, that our soldiers were dying at a rate of better the 75/DAY in 1970? Not per month, like with this war. Per DAY. People protested, and the government ignored them. The protests did NOT end the war. 20,000 people with signs made for good photos, but didn't do a thing. A dozen people with guns or bombs, however, the government knew they could not control, nor ignore. Few revoutions begin with a mass uprising. Most begin with a few, then a few dozen, and it spirals out from there, like the US and Russian revolutions. To forestall that spiral of revolution the government can do two things - bring all its might down on the first few, or give up and declare victory. Nixon did both.

BTW, just how is it 'playing revolutionary' when you are running a bomb factory and if the FBI finds it they will kill anyone and everyone in the building? Remember the SLA? You think the Weather Underground would not have been dealt with the same way if found?

[Raskolnik]

12. Do you think what Ayers did is admirable? n/t

[DangerDave921]

18. No eom

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. Well, let's see.

He fought the Vietnam War, racism, social injustice, government corruption. He was a player in exposing COINTELPRO, for example.

We never would have learned the government was spying on the likes of John Lennon and Martin Luther King if it wasn't for Ayers and his Weather Underground associates.

Let me ask you, if Ayers had worn a uniform and killed Vietnamese or Iraqis, would you think he was a hero?

[DangerDave921]

22. Ideals

I'm not questioning his ideals. I'm questioning the value of setting bombs to register one's displeasure with the status quo.

By your reasoning, some RW nut could bomb the Capitol and you'd be fine with it. Hey -- it's just self-expression and dissent. It's all cool.

[Raskolnik]

23. You didn't answer the question.

He was a player in exposing COINTELPRO, for example.

No, he wasn't. The charges against him were dropped because of prosecutorial misconduct related to COINTELPRO.

We never would have learned the government was spying on the likes of John Lennon and Martin Luther King if it wasn't for Ayers and his Weather Underground associates.

Ayers had absolutely nothing personally to do with those revelations.

Let me ask you, if Ayers had worn a uniform and killed Vietnamese or Iraqis, would you think he was a hero?

I do not think that someone who serves in the armed forces is necessarily a "hero."

Now, I'll ask again: do you think William Ayers' actions were admirable?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

25. I find him more admirable than you.

:shrug:

[Raskolnik]

28. Again, you didn't answer the question.

Your opinion of me is neither relevant nor sought.

Do you think that the actions of William Ayers were admirable?

[DangerDave921]

27. No

I thought I answered you. No, I don't think what Ayers did is admirable.

[Raskolnik]

30. .

My post was directed to BAH...if it is showing up as responding you, it must be an error in the site.

[cali]

29. I'll answer that: I wouldn't think he was a hero for fighting in Vietnam

anymore than I think McCain is a hero on John Kerry. And I don't think he was a fucking hero for being a founder of the WU, planning and carrying out violent acts, or spouting some of the most sophmoric drivel ever. He was a rich kid brat playing revolutionary. Had his father not been a corporate fat cat, his fate would probably have been different. He's done far more good as a teacher and advocate for early childhood ed than he ever did as a revolutionary.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

31. Huh.

So you're saying you show the troops the same respect you show Ayers?

Interesting.

[cali]

34. Someone doesn't automatically earn respect from me just because

they're in the armed forces, but of course that has nothing to do with your sick habitual practice of twisting words. Just because I said that I wouldn't view Ayers as a hero had he been in Vietnam, doesn't follow that I disrespect all persons in the armed forces. But you know that. And as a matter of fact, I said that I do respect his work as an academic.

[superduperfarleft]

45. The WU saw it as important to fight alongside people of color

specifically because they came from privileged backgrounds. That's something that a lot of privileged white liberals could learn from.

[cali]

58. I'll fucking take the white liberals who marched and in some cases

died for civil rights over Ayers any day of the week.

[superduperfarleft]

59. Well, that's your opinion. We disagree.

I was simply trying to explain your accusation that he was nothing but a trustifarian.

[Raskolnik]

11. Ayers was a self-important asshat with a rich daddy to keep him out of trouble

William Ayers actions were all about one thing: William Ayers.

I'll grant him that he has since done some productive things with his life, but even now a good deal of his energy is spent making sure you know about William Ayers.

[cali]

13. ding ding ding.

and that about sums up the self-important Bill Ayers.

[superduperfarleft]

47. See post #45.

And you disagreeing with someone does not make them an egomaniac.

[Waiting For Everyman]

46. I don't give a flying damn who doesn't like it today... Ayers and all

who resisted the Viet Nam war were patriots. Those of us who were there, know. And there's nothing any of you can do about that. Your so-called opinions are hot air.

It cracks me up when people who weren't even around, presume to pass judgment on another time.

[cali]

48. oh fuck, not the stupid patriot shit again.

and I don't mean because you're applying it to Ayers. What the fuck is a patriot anyway? And you expressed an opinion not some undying truth. Try and learn the difference. I was there too. And I knew spoiled assholes like Ayers spouting their sophmoric revolutionary cant. Granted they didn't go as far as Ayers. I was 10 years younger than Ayers and crew, but even then I recognized the fucking HARM they were doing to the cause of ending the war.

Your so-called opinion, is, in my opinion, a steaming pile of revisionist shit.

[Waiting For Everyman]

49. And IMO you "protest a little too much".

Is this you "cause in life", or what? Your opinion is all up and down this thread. Why do you care so much?

If you don't believe in the concept of a patriot, that's your problem. Some of us get it.

[cali]

50. wow. that hoary old chestnut "you protest too much" rears its moronic head

And I post where I wish too. As someone with two MAs in history I dislike revisionism. If you were actually there, you know damn well the violence of the Weathermen/WU didn't help at all. It was a pr debacle.

[Waiting For Everyman]

51. I know what I know, not what you say. Blow away.

[cali]

55. lol. wow. you're just a master of the persuasive, fact driven argument.

how pathetic can you get?

[Waiting For Everyman]

56. And you're simply a PITA.

Your degrees, Cali, do not negate my experience. Nor do your opinions. Nor does you name-calling. Nor do your directives at what you think I should learn.

I don't need you to tell me what to think, or what is true. Got that?

[AngryAmish]

57. Go to Room 2501 in the Daley Center in Chicago, you'll see a victim of Ayers

His name is Richard Elrod. He is a judge, and just about the best one in the entire building. He is a quadriplegic. He has limited feeling and movement in all four limbs. He needs 24 hour care and uses a walker or a rascal-type thing. Yet he shows up to work every single day. He looks out for the rights of every person, humble or rich, who shows up in his courtroom.

He was injured during the Days of Rage - an riot planned by Ayers and the rest of the Weathermen to "impress" the Black Panthers. He was hurt trying to tackle one of the rioters. He went on to be sheriff of Cook County and then a judge.

People say Ayers only tried to hurt property. Tell that to the Honorable Richard Elrod, who suffers every hour of every day because of that asshole.

[Waiting For Everyman]

60. I agree that is tragic AA,

even one life ruined is tragic. I would only say, go to The Wall in Washington D.C. if you haven't been there and just look at it, and consider what someone might think of to do to stop THAT. I'm not saying to what degree Ayers was, or was not, effective - that isn't the point.

Those names on The Wall were not volunteers for the most part, they were draftees. 50,000+ dead Americans, mostly under 21. That's not counting multiples of that number who were ill and maimed for life. That's not counting the hundreds of thousands who were sent there and returned seemingly ok, but carrying that experience the rest of their lives. The family members scarred by it. That's not counting the Vietnamese casualties. This was much worse than Iraq/Afganistan. It was a horrific meatgrinder that was consuming a generation, unchecked.

[superduperfarleft]

61. Um, that wasn't Ayers.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/December-2006/Sudden-Impact/

And he was found not guilty after the Chicago police lied on the stand. Oops.

[AngryAmish]

63. Um, Ayers and the Weatherman planned the Days of Rage

I know Elrod wasn't tackling Ayers when he was injured. thst isn't the point. You plan a riot, you are responsible for what goes on.

[superduperfarleft]

64. And Flanagan was found not guilty.

According to the jury, Elrod injured himself attempting to tackle Flanagan.

And a lawyer shouldn't be in the streets trying to apprehend "suspects" anyway.

[gollygee]

62. You can learn that people are able to get smarter as they age.

That's about it.