Some people predicting a democratic blowout because of this financial mess are ignorant of history.

[El Pinko]

Aside from the fact that it is rather tacky to try to turn events that will mean real misery for millions into partisan political happytalk...


It may well be that Obama will win this fall, and he may well not. The fact that the world has been thrown into chaos makes it that much more unpredictable.


Before you start gloating over a not-yet-won election and a not-yet-enacted progressive agenda...

remember that in the 1920s, Berlin was the most tolerant, most swinging, most bohemian place around.

and in the 1930s, facing economic depression and hyperinflation, germans did not reach out for "hope" or "change".

They embraced the right-wing peddlers of FEAR and HATE, because in their own fear for the future, the nazis' pomp, regimentation and

simplistic solutions to everything were comforting, and it was no time before kristallnacht, and jews, gays, dissidents, the handicapped and leftists

were all loaded onto boxcars and the final solution.



The democratic party has a good shot, but you should not take anything for granted. As a leftist who does not want to see full-blown fascism in this country,

I am fully supporting the center-right Obama, because this is not the time to blow my vote on peace and freedom or the greens.


But don't be saps and assume that what is happening is good for the democratic party. If the democrats win, they will have their work cut out for them.

My guess is that regardless of who wins, the newly unemployed and impoverished will start lashing out in their fear and looking for scapegoats, and our right-wing media

will provide them. Just wait and see. This is not the time to be a sap in rose-colored glasses. It is not going to be like the 1960s and 70s. Be vigilant.


Don't be a sap.

[seemslikeadream]

1. They embraced the right-wing peddlers of FEAR and HATE, because in their own fear for the future

EXACTLY

[Bluenorthwest]

2. And is that what America did

when faced with the Great Depression?

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. Yes, it is. But FDR forestalled it with his New Deal programs.

The Klan and the German/American Bund were huge in the 30s - as were the communists. There was a strong move toward authoritarianism. Bush's grand-cronies tried a fascist overthrow of the government.

We were VERY lucky to have someone in power who had the wisdom to not abuse that power, because if we had a charismatic authoritarian instead of a charismatic liberal in the WH in '32, we just might have allied with Germany instead of England.

[rockymountaindem]

31. I don't think the German/American Bund was ever "huge"

Their largest rally ever had 20,000 people in attendance after a long period of promotion and planning. The next night 25,000 people gathered in the same place (Madison Square Garden) on short notice for no other purpose than to *denounce* the Bund and what it stood for. Also, don't forget that there were many admirers of Stalin in the United States at the time. The USSR was undergoing massive economic growth at a time when other countries were moving just as rapidly in the other direction. Of course, the underlying premise of Stalin's success- his regimes rather cavalier attitude toward human suffering (to put it mildly)- was not well known outside the USSR. The major difference between Stalin's supporters and the far right was that the Stalinists didn't have access to or ownership of (such as Henry Luce) major media outlets, so their opinions have not been as well recorded by history.

For more on the topic read the introduction and first chapters of "Behind the Urals" by John Scott, which is a contemporary account of an American journalist who traveled to the USSR to enlist as a worker in the construction of Magnitogorsk and hopefully learn the secrets of Stalin's regime. It's very interesting.

[El Pinko]

33. It wasn't just the Bund...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Support_Hitler_US.html


Henry Ford, Walt Disney and Charles Lindbergh were among the apple-pie Americans who loved fascism...

[rockymountaindem]

37. Oh, no doubt

For someone like Ford, fascism would have meant huge profits. Then again, he was always a xenophobic hard-liner who spied on his own workers and used the militia to break up strikes, so what were we supposed to expect? My point is that, IMHO, the base level of support for fascism in this country was rather low, and only gets more attention than the nascent Communist movement because the list of fascist-sympathizers includes some of the more well-loved figures of American history from that time.

[bean fidhleir]

41. The base level of fascism in this country was strong enough among the monied

to have put *many* fascists into Congress. Fascists sat on the Supreme Court and controlled parts of the Exec Branch. They also controlled quite a bit of the MSM, and weren't very subtle about their views, either. To them, Huey Long was a dyed-in-the-wool Commie who was out to destroy the USA.

They just weren't identifiably followers of Musso or Hitler. But fascist? Oh yeah!

[tom_paine]

45. Don't know if you know this, but in fact the Bushies tried to overthrow FDR and ally with Hitler.

(if you haven't heard of this, then please takle 20 minutes to listen to those "wacky conspiracy theorists" at the BBC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/document/document_20070723.shtml

And General Smedley Butler, the greatest American hero no one has ever heard about, forestalled it by turning them in when the Bushies as him to be their Hitler.

So it was a much MUCH nearer thing than even you know. And as much as FDR was a great man and a great president, I wonder if we don't owe the survival of our nation to Gen. Butler even more than we do FDR.

What would have happened had the Bushies succeeded in 1934? I would probably be dead (Jewish) and America would not have got to enjoy the extra 66 years of freedom up until the Bushies finally got around to realizing Grandpa's Dream, and ending the Old American Republic on 12/12/2000.

Oh, and Hitler and the Nazis would have won the war, with no small amount of help from their good friends, the Bushies.

[El Pinko]

6. I don't believe in the magical idea of Americans being better or different than other countries.

FDR saw the how the socialist movements were gathering steam and decided to appropriate their ideas to a degree and thus neuter them.

But the fascists were a significant force here at the time too.

If America had had Fox News and right-wing radio to the degree we do now, how knows how things would have gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. we did, but it was regional... who can forget

Father Coughlin? In fact, you could say that Rush modeled a lot of his approach on good ol' Father Coughlin... and guess what? he went national

Oh and that magical thinking is very much so that of the right wing... national excpetionnalism is not exclusive to the US

[ddeclue]

3. Sorry but you are wrong....sometimes the peasants rise up

with their pitchforks and chase the rascals out like they did with the New Deal.

Right now Obama is slated to win with 350 electoral votes. McCain is abandoning Michigan and trails Obama by 8 in Ohio, 10 in Pennsylvania, 5 in Florida and even stands to lose Virginia, North Carolina, Missouri, and Nevada. The Reagan revolution chickens have arrived and they are looking for a place to roost...

:rofl:

[El Pinko]

8. FDR was hardly a peasant.

And The New Deal was about putting the kibosh on the then-growing socialist movements, as well as being about saving capitalism from its own excesses.

And like I said, if he wins, it will be just the beginning of the battle.

[cali]

5. sorry, I'm not ignorant of history and I am predicting an Obama win

There's a lot- and I mean a lot- more to it that your shallow comparison to the fall of the Weimar and the rise of the Nazi party.

It's not a matter of looking through rose colored glasses, it's about analysis of the particulars of this election. And it's not just the economy that's predictive of an Obama win.

[El Pinko]

9. People are still comfortable now and hopefully will be on election day.

Polls show Obama about 5 pts ahead. That is a dead heat when you figure in the racism factor that always figures into any election with a candidate of color.

I wouldn't put money on this one either way because I don't have the stomach for it, but I hope you're right.

And I'm not saying he won't win. I'm saying even that if he does it will not mean we are in for any good times, any time soon.

[elocs]

7. Well, it's a good thing you are here to straighten us all out.

Oh, and by the way, I am a Democrat and a member of the Democtratic party, both of which deserve a capital "D" since you saw fit to capitalize other words.

[El Pinko]

10. I'm not, and I don't give a shit about capital letters

If it makes you happy, I took away the greens' capitals.

But knock yourself out. Focusing on trivialties like capital letters is bound to lead to victory.

:eyes:

[elocs]

13. What you choose to capitalize or not (and you did choose) reveals your attitude,

and that is not a trivial thing. It's like a tell which reveals things which you would rather keep hidden.

On edit, I did notice the comment in your profile:

I *SO* don't give a shit at this point...

now that's an impressive attitude.

[El Pinko]

15. I haven't hidden a damn thing. I have stated flat out that I am not a democrat on MANY occasions.

I am technically a registered democrat for the purposes of voting in primaries, but my heart is not with this corporate-owned husk of a party. I have hardly made that a secret.

[elocs]

23. I am not certain what makes you so different from Freepers

who come here to slam the Democratic party. Fortunately, I won't be reading any of your posts anymore. You're not worth it.

[El Pinko]

32. And neither are you.

nt

[JeanGrey]

20. Oh my.............

You'll be accused of being a "racist' with a hidden agenda in 1...........2...............3.................

[El Pinko]

22. Wow. is that what this clown was implying?

Okay. Whatever. I look at the dead eyes of the cretins in that picture and it gives me chills.

If someone here thinks this is about PROMOTING that, they are freaking nuts.

[newtothegame]

40. I for one agree with you....

And am very amused at the accusations of "Freeperism" to people with 1000+ posts. I feel REALLY good about our chances in Nov, but I also think overconfidence and October shouts of victory do nothing towards ensuring people are getting out the vote.


Best,
Matthew

[JeanGrey]

44. Exactly.

[stillcool]

12. a sap in rose colored glasses...

am I. I have only one life, and it is occurring now, not yesterday, not tomorrow, but now. I have not been very good at predicting the future, and the truth of the past is highly subjective, so I no longer fear the re-occurrence of events of the past, nor future events no matter how real they may seem. Change is certain. I'm just along for the ride, trying to make my mark through my thoughts and actions in hopes of a better world.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LSdemocrat]

16. Sadly, elections are more about candidates and campaign managers than the "times"

There really are very, very few elections where the outcome was completely predetermined. Who the candidates are and how the campaigns go often have more of an effect than people like to think. Imagine, if we nominated Hart in 1984, no Eagleton problem in 1972, Dukakis running a competent campaign in 1988, a more amicable ending the 1980 Kennedy/Carter primary campaign, etc.

[NNN0LHI]

17. Yes people always tend to vote for the party that they went into the poorhouse under

Is this post trolling for idiots?

See you found 5 of them.

Don

[El Pinko]

19. My dad is supposedly a democrat and hates Bush.

He told me recently that he is thinking of voting for McCain because he is "so independent", and because he is "going to fund Amtrak"

Never underestimate the stupidity of the American people.

[NNN0LHI]

24. You didn't mention how your dad was doing financially

Or if he has ever exhibited any racist tendencies in the past.

Don

[El Pinko]

26. Speaking of attitudes speaking volumes...

...I am so naive, I didn't even get that that was what you were implying until another poster mentioned it.

I think it's pretty sick to imply that I am a racist on the basis of something as stupid as a capital letter. Total Fox News tactics, actually.


And for the record my dad is a sweet old man and does not have a racist bone in his body.

He draws a modest government pension and is still paying a mortgage on a $100K house.

He's not going to starve, but he is not going to be going on any trips to Europe either. Answer your fucking question, asshole?

[NNN0LHI]

30. BZZZZZZT! You failed pal

Everyone has exhibited racist tendencies so you are a proven liar.

Just ask Mark Fuhrman if you don't believe me.

You also think everyone is as stupid as you are.

Sorry but it doesn't always work that way.

Don

[El Pinko]

34. Your saying something does not make it so.

I'm a liar because Mark Furhman said the N word?

What are you smoking?

[NNN0LHI]

35. Friendly word of advice

Quit while you are behind.

Don

[El Pinko]

38. Friendly and you are two things that don't go together.

There's only one of us who is being dishonest and it is not me.

[bean fidhleir]

42. Ignore him. You've nothing to apologise for. (nt)

[JVS]

18. Any party worth its salt should be able to exploit the shit out of this crisis.

And it's our job to provide the scapegoats. Don't be a sucker, seize the day!

[El Pinko]

21. Well, I don't have much faith in the gutless democrats doing that, HOWEVER...

...I do have the sense that Mr. Obama just might do it. I do think he is smart enough and wants it bad enough that he may pull it off.

[ContinentalOp]

25. Your analogy makes perfect sense...

since America is such a "tolerant, swinging, bohemian" place right now. :eyes:

[El Pinko]

28. Notice I said Berlin.

The rest of Germany was another story.

I would say that many of our coastal cities are pretty free and accepting of all kinds, and they are already being demonized for it in RW media.

[ContinentalOp]

36. Any way you look at it, our country is not exactly in the middle of the swinging 60s,

culturally speaking. These are conservative times, even here in Hollywood, the supposed heart of elitist liberal decadence. Look at San Francisco which was turned from a bohemian town with a lot of character into an uber-yuppified developer's playground with live/work "loft spaces" on every corner in the space of a decade.

I think America's parallel to the Weimar Republic and the resulting shift to the Nazis was our transition from the 60s into the Reagan years. I don't think what we're seeing today looks anything like that dynamic.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. The danger is that people look to "strong" leaders to provide "stability".

Fear is the mother's milk of politicians in general, but in times of crisis, it is the most alluring of political paths to power.

[MzNov]

29. Oh I think we have more than "a good shot"

pardon me if I seem to "gloat" and I would hate to be a "sap", but here's what will be the final nail in McNasty's election coffin:

Not only is he going to tax our medical benefits, he wants to take a couple of trillion from Medicare, Medicaid. Bye Bye John old man.

What blows me away is the fact that they are admitting it. There goes the over 60 vote.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122315505846605217.html#printMode

[Jack Rabbit]

39. K/R

This is something to ponder.

It is enough to have heard the stories of the Great Depression from my parents (Dad is 97 and still living). Mom grew up on a farm in Nebraska and came to California in the mid thirties after the farm failed. It isn't something I want to live through.

[dhpgetsit]

43. A much better analogy draws from our own history.

History is clear. In 1921--eight years before the great depression--Republicans took over the helm of this nation for 12 years. During that time there were three Republican administrations, the first of which was the administration of Warren G. Harding. History remembers Harding's administration for one thing more than anything other--scandal. It was during Harding's presidency that the Teapot Dome Scandal erupted. His administration was considered the most corrupt administration in the history of the United States--until Nixon's, then Reagan, and now Bush's administration.

Next, in 1923, came Calvin Coolidge, the president that Ronald Reagan is said to have most admired. Coolidge's policies of large tax cuts, allowing business a free-rein, and his encouragement of stock speculation contributed greatly to the impending stock market crash and The great depression that was to come.

Then in 1929 Herbert Hoover came to power. During his administration the stock market crashed, starting the great depression. In spite of the fact that by 1933 the unemployment rate was at 33.3% with 16 million people out of work, Hoover, the Republican, just sat, thinking that the economy would eventually rejuvenate itself. He felt the economy was fundamentally (Sound familiar?). Also during his administration 15,000 WWI veterans marched on Washington demanding that they be paid what they were owed by the government. Hoover responded by calling in federal troops to throw these ex-servicemen off government property.

Finally in 1933 Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a liberal Democrat, was elected overwhelmingly. After his election he immediately went about the business of developing a" New Deal" for the working class people of this country.

The New Deal had two components--one to help the economy to recover from the effects of the great depression, and a second component to give relief to the American people and to insure that they would never be placed in a position of total destitution again. To help heal the economy Roosevelt created programs that regulated business, controlled inflation, and brought about price stabilization; to bring relief to the people he signed The National Labor Relations Act , which guaranteed workers the right to collective bargaining, and he created the Social Security Administration to guarantee workers some sort of income once they became too old to work. He also signed the Fair Labor Standards Act which protected workers rights, and set a minimum wage to prevent workers from being exploited.

With his New Deal in place Franklin Delano Roosevelt, this "bleeding heart liberal", not only ledthis country out of the worst, Republican generated, crisis that this country has ever faced, but went on to lead the free world in victory over Hitler in WWII. He then ushered in the most sustained prosperity that the world has ever known.

http://www.blackstarnews.com/?c=135&a=4903

[OakCliffDem]

46. Kick