Banks are Bailing on the Bail Out? Wall St. is balking at even USING the BailOut Bill(ions) ....

[99th_Monkey]

... due to it's dislike for the bail-out bill's "hodge-podge of regulations and rules", in particular the ban on golden parashutes for CEOs. :rofl:

If this turns out to be the case, then I must say, GREAT JOB DEMOCRATS for insisting on the inclusion of reasonable oversight
and accountability with the people's money. :thumbsup:

*********************************************************************


Now Wall Street may shun $700bn bail-out
James Doran, New York
The Observer -- Sunday October 5 2008

Fears are mounting that many Wall Street banks and financial firms will refuse to participate in the US government's $700bn bail-out package, leaving global markets and world economies in a perilous state for months to come.

'There is a growing feeling that banks ... might instead decide to tough it out,' said Thomas Caldwell, chairman and CEO of Caldwell Financial, a $1bn-plus fund manager.

For the past two weeks all eyes in the market have been focused on US Congress and its attempts to pass Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's bail-out package - a bill to allow the US government to buy up to $700bn of toxic mortgage-related assets from American banks, which would in theory free the credit markets and set the gears of global commerce spinning once more.

Last Monday, after the bill was thrown out by the House of Representatives, more than $1 trillion was wiped off the value of US stocks as the market was gripped by panic. The bill was passed on Friday afternoon, however, after the inclusion of $149bn of tax breaks and strict rules for participating banks.

But Wall Street analysts, believe the addition of so many terms to the bill might deter potential participants.

One of the least attractive elements is a section designed to curb executive pay at banks that participate in the bail-out package. These include limiting stock-related pay and banning 'golden parachutes' for executives.

'I think this hodge-podge of regulations and rules will be enough to put many off participating,' Caldwell said.

Sources close to Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch indicated the banks might choose not to participate in the bail-out as there is a growing view on Wall Street that the market may be bottoming out.

Analysts also believe that the mere presence of the government as buyer of last resort will be enough to get credit markets moving again, and that a large number of banks would not need to take part for the legislation to succeed.

Wall Street ended its worst week in seven years with another tumble on Friday. The Dow Jones Industrial Average closed down more than 157 points on Friday at 10,325.38.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/oct/05/wall.street.bailout

[MUAD_DIB]

1. Parallels to 1929?

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. Give the man a cigar, or just some spice in your case

[Eric J in MN]

2. I don't believe it. There are so many loopholes in those rules.

There isn't a specific salary limit for the executives of participating corporations.

[Skink]

3. Before we even get results the election takes place.

These guys know this is just the begining of regulation if the dems get in.

[opihimoimoi]

6. The Smell is overpowering......its not from Denmark either

Its from Wall Street...

[Adsos Letter]

4. ...

"One of the least attractive elements is a section designed to curb executive pay at banks that participate in the bail-out package. These include limiting stock-related pay and banning 'golden parachutes' for executives."

Man...I thought it was a huge crisis...but not large enough to get these guys to participate cause they won't get their enormous compensation packages? :wtf:

:crazy:

[99th_Monkey]

10. Bingo. PANIC!!!! PANIC!!! The sky is falling!!!! Give us $700 Billion NOW, or else. Oh, nevermind

... if I can't simply steal the people's money with absolutely NO strings whatsoever, then forget it.

un-fukin-believable, huh?

[workinclasszero]

40. You got it right!

The greedy pigs are pissed over the limits on CEO pay. Ride your companies down the toilet then thieves, it works for me!

[barbtries]

67. is that wild?

obviously there's no shortage of greed in the business.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

5. I'm hoping the new Democratic congress will enact regulations anyway

I hope they devise legislation that requires hedge funds to register with the SEC and strictly regulates them and requires transparency in the "dark markets", whether or not the financial institutions accept the terms of the bailout.

[annabanana]

7. If they are refusing to participate, I guess they didn't need it that badly.

I guess the crisis wasn't as acute as they were portraying it.... Do they think they are in a position to negotiate for better terms or what?

[99th_Monkey]

15. So if Wall St. doesn't use the $700 Billion, do we still need to swallow $170 Billion of pork?

that was added onto the 700 Billion to "sweeten the deal" for skeptics?

[Donnachaidh]

21. oh you KNOW they'll take THAT.

They'll never turn down tax breaks.

[99th_Monkey]

27. Maybe the new tax breaks were what it was REALLY about all along? Bait & Switch Alert!!

Come in asking for an amount SO BIG that it made the tax breaks look small by comparison?

Wouldn't put it past the ReThugs to pull a stunt like that with our tax money.

[Zhade]

18. We who were right about the bailout warned the others.

But some here can't even admit they were wrong.

[tom_paine]

72. Yep. Some people just cannot stop being programmd by their Bushie TVs.

They just can't. And THAT, my friend, is the best thing a Bushie, Nazi or ANY tyrants could hope for.

[BlooInBloo]

8. Fuck THAT. That's the DEAL you whiny ass titty babies.

[ContinentalOp]

9. Haha, this is great if true. Maybe the Democrats in congress did know what they were doing!

[99th_Monkey]

19. YEP. If this is how it plays out, the Democrats just stopped the biggest bank heist in history

that would have taken place with Paulson's 3-pager.

This certainly won't help John "DEregulator" McCain in Nov. either. :-)

[jwirr]

11. Just maybe they got the message! We the people are fed up with

their shenanigans. We did not want to bail them out in the first place.

[charlie]

12. An executive who can't bamboozle his way around the new regulations

isn't worth a golden parachute. C'mon guys, show a little nerve.

[soulcore]

13. But, but!!!

Fellow DU'ers assured me without this bailout I would soon be seeing soup and breadlines!

Read my lips. FUCKING. FEAR. MONGERING.

"The market appears to be bottoming out" indeed, they don't need the money, never did, they just wanted us to foot the bill.

[Captiosus]

22. Yep.

Oh my god, if we didn't support the bailout we clearly wanted to see the entire economy blow apart and watch as our fellow citizens live in cardboard boxes again. :sarcasm:

Lo and behold, the bill passes, the DOW drops 400 points, banks don't want to be "tied to the regulations" and,currently, Asian markets and DOW Futures are tanking (at time of typing, the NIKKEI is at -356 and the Hang Seng is -526; DOW Futures are -175). This bill was a big swindle, not even a band aid on the "ailing" credit markets.

The new pro-bailout meme is a repetition of the "it's going to take time" line from President Bush. Luckily, both parties get punched in the face with blame on this one.

[Norrin Radd]

64. I'll add that meme to my collection:

1st: Bailout or else...insta-Depression!
2nd: Credit's dried up -- no money for payroll
3rd: It'll take more than the BB is doling out
4th: They'll fix it when they get the reins

and now your

5th: it'll take time (we are still not finished creating a few new superbank monopolies).

[CoffeeCat]

14. This is a load of big-time baloney...

Since when has Wall Street ever allowed rules, regulations and government restrictions--stand in the
way of these fat cats enriching themselves? They always find ways around tax laws and other government regulations.

There are no provisions in the bailout bill that even ADDRESS the salaries of these spoiled brats. There
was an almost-comic discussion on CNBC last week, about the bailout bill addressing golden parachutes, but
not salaries. Most of the commentators agreed that leaving the salary issue untouched, would allow these
executives to pay themselves more, to make up for the lost golden parachutes.

Also, who in the world believes that the market is bottoming out? Main Street has only just begun
reacting to the economic downturn. It's going to get real ugly. The bottom is no where in sight.

I smell a rat. What is really going on? We have to think deeper!

So, if they claim that they're not using the money---is the money going somewhere else? Or does it just
sit there in a pile somewhere?

I find it so unconscionable, that our elected leaders would go to the mattresses for these pigs, and now
they're saying that they won't save the economy--because they won't get paid as much. It's so egregious
that it's simply unbelievable.

I don't believe the face value of this story, but I can't quite figure out what is really going on...

[dixiegrrrrl]

24. Remember one of the warnings was the money was going to

overseas to prop up our dollar.
Maybe Wall St, is covering for Paulson so ALL the bailut goes over seas.
:shrug:

[annabanana]

25. It really is odd. . . . .n/t

[99th_Monkey]

26. You raise some great questions.

Such as "does the money just sit in a pill somewhere now"?

and "what the fuck is REALLY going on here"?

It seems that those who know, aren't saying or are lying through their teeth; and/or those who are talking, don't know.
or something like that.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next 4 weeks though. I can't
imagine this will be ANY help whatsoever to McCan't and his new "soul mate".

[Mojorabbit]

33. I am wondering if tghey

are afraid to open up their books to anyone. With all the grumbling that Lehmans was taken down on purpose maybe they are afraid they will not be on the Friends of Hank list and will be forced to go under.

[Frustratedlady]

16. So, what would they do if we all withdrew our cash?

The banks fail, they won't get any inflated payments anyway.

I can't believe these selfish brats!

[bridgit]

17. Fuck their golden parachutes! They don't like regs & rules? Let them live in anarchy...

somewhere else, let their shit be confiscated instead. Let them eat their stolen, stale-ass fucking cake I'm sick of hearing these whiny, namby pamby, "I don't really work for a living cause my fingernails are too clean" millionaires. Pull the money on the whole damn thing, take the money, generate some jobs, and start restoring the infrastructure of America. These asses will never do it! End this idiot, , soul-less, thieving shit-game of theirs. They serve no useful purpose imho

They hate regs & rules cause through them we have a glimpse of just how criminal their activities truly are

[Donnachaidh]

20. hahahahahaha -- and Chimpie did his BEST rendition of Chicken Little

I'd even check the podium for teeth marks from all the over the top foaming and crying!

Sure makes HIM look like a paid flunkie - and a DUMB one at that. Oh I certainly hope THIS little banker's tantrum goes viral. Then perhaps even the repukes will realize they'd been HAD. :rofl:

[dailykoff]

23. Meanwhile, Paulson has his unlimited power and a cool $700 B

in "walking around" money that could come in handy in November, ya know it is. And we're out another trillion. :mad: :mad:

[99th_Monkey]

28. Actually Paulson didn't get the whole $700 billion yet. Wasn't it "only" $250 billion

at the front end, and more later as needed? I thought that's how the final bill was structured.

[dailykoff]

31. He's hiring ten firms just to help him spend it all.

They better be temps because he'll swipe every red cent before he checks back into Goldman Sachs.

[malaise]

30. Ding ding

etc.

[Odin2005]

29. These idiots on WS must like cutting off their noses to spite their faces.

Don't like the restrictions on golden parachutes? TOO FUCKING BAD. Beggars can't be choosers.

[Waiting For Everyman]

32. Gee, ya mean maybe it WASN'Tsuch an emergency, after all???

Color me "shocked". :eyes:

[99th_Monkey]

34. I guess the big "emergency" must have been more about ReThugs trying to loot the US Treasury

on their way out the White House door..

[snot]

35. HOLY F*CK

If they're dumb enough to have overplayed THAT hand, no wonder we're all in trouble.

Obviously, this totally is NOT such an emergency.

I'm torn between nearly-hysterical laughter and wishing they'd rot in h*ll.

[RainDog]

36. If I could go to NYC tomorrow, I would

and I would hold one of those signs that says "Jump, You Fuckers." And I would do this everyday and invite others to join me and I would hope these bastards could learn to know real fear, fear that their actions had consequences.

I HAVE HAD IT with those parasites.

[KoKo]

37. Sounds like some "spin" put out there to soften the public's opinion about the Bailout

which is so negative. Put some spin out that "Banks probably won't even use it," and the M$M press will spin that so long we won't even know what "ELSE" they are doing with that money...or what they are REALLY waiting for.

I just don't trust this article to be the truth of it.

But, thanks for posting because we need to watch the "spin" all the time with Bush/Cheney still in there and wanting to break our government before they wave "Bye Bye...Suckers!" as they go out the door in January.

[Two Americas]

38. just amazing

We had no choice, and they get to pick and choose?

I call bullshit on every single pro-bailout argument we were bombarded with here, and on every Democrat who rolled over for this. The whole house of cards has fallen.

What a hustle. What a pack of lies.

[Two Americas]

39. a heartfelt thank you

I want to thank every person here who put so much time and effort into opposing this bailout, in the face of unbelievable provocation and hostility.

You put a solid foundation down for all of us, upon which we can build. That will bring untold benefits for all of us in the future.

[Selatius]

41. Maybe we should take the fucking money back and go home if they don't want to play ball.

Take the fucking money back. It'd be better spent on something else.

[amandabeech]

42. If these guys don't take the Feds up on their offer, the shareholders might get restless.

If there is any evidence that the officers refused the offer for personal gain, the shareholders can sue on behalf of the corporation. It has been done successfully in the past.

There is also the possiblity of restive shareholders conducting a proxy fight for control of the board of directors who appoint these idiots to CEO and CFO positions. These things were popular in the late eighties, and may come back into vogue if the problems still exist in the spring shareholders meetings when boards of directors are elected. Bums have been thrown out by this method in the past. Personally, I don't think that profits are going to be up by the end of the first quarter next year, and it could be a very profitable season for the often useless proxy solicitation firms and advisers in New York.

[kentuck]

43. So they must believe the worst is over??

"Sources close to Goldman Sachs and Merrill Lynch indicated the banks might choose not to participate in the bail-out as there is a growing view on Wall Street that the market may be bottoming out."

[Hannah Bell]

44. the restrictions are minor, & easily gotten around. i don't buy it.

[grahamhgreen]

45. Neo-conned again - DEMS BAILOUT BILLIONAIRES - Anyone got any ideas how we fight this?

[mhatrw]

46. What if they gave investment bankers $700 billion and no one came?

just as likely

[RB TexLa]

47. They don't have to take it. Neither individuals or companies own anything to the economy.

[Neshanic]

48. Like a kid holding their breath, they will turn blue till they get it ALL.

[Marie26]

49. Translation: Gov. oversight might uncover massive Wall St. fraud

Golden parachutes are nothing compared to steel handcuffs. A CEO might be willing to give up his exit package, but he's not willing to spend 10-20 years in prison for securities fraud. THAT'S why they're balking on the bailout now. Oh, IMHO.

[Adsos Letter]

52. Not just your humble opinion Marie26...

There is probably miles and miles of stuff some of these guys don't want to see the light of day.

The best explanation yet, to me anyway, of why the initial demand was essentially "give us the money and go about your business America...we'll. uh, handle things from here on out... ."

[TexasObserver]

55. Yes. They wanted money with no strings attached, a slush fund to fix problems.

And by "problems," I don't mean our problems, I mean their problems.

The top guys of the failed firms that have been either bailed out or seized should all be fired first, and sued second. If the civil cases turn up evidence of criminal conduct, that can be referred to the FBI.

[northernlights]

60. Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding

You nailed it.

The golden parachute whine is probably a red herring. It's the *oversight* they fear.

[leftofthedial]

50. do you bailout apologists smell anything fishy yet?

[Neshanic]

51. "Why no, should we?" While standing knee deep in rotting fish and debt.

[endthewar]

54. It should work this way

let's open our minds and think for a second. I'm paraphrasing some analyses I've read (with a socialistic tint against the bailout):

A big philosophical concern is that companies should not be lining up for the bailout. That is the best way to measure how good the bailout is for the American people. There's something fishy if companies are racing to push each other over for this money, right? Doesn't take an economic genius to figure out that something is wrong if companies are licking their chops on getting this money. It should be punitive, plain and simple. How should it be punitive? That's open for discussion, but it needs to be punitive. Otherwise it would only encourage future speculation and encourage people to find new loopholes in future regulatory laws that will be enacted. Providing taxpayers an equity stake or just plain out forcing the company to sell certain percentages of itself is an example of a way to make it punitive.

The difficult balancing act, however, is that while the bailout needs to be punitive, the bailout will work better as the number of different companies participating in the reverse auctions increases. And this is why there's no good solution to this economic crisis. It's not easy to balance the need for the bailout to be punitive on corporations while encouraging the companies to participate in the bailout to increase competition with the proposed reverse auctions.

Not sure if I'm talking to an open mind or a closed mind, but hopefully the former. :hi:

[rucky]

59. I think that's a fair perspective.

Right now, Wall Street is reacting out of a sense of entitlement, but when the feel the burn even more, they'll start lining up.

[leftofthedial]

65. what would you be saying if the companies were lining up to get the help they

so desperately needed (last week)

and the markets had stabilized?

[TexasObserver]

53. But we said "pretty please," with lard slathered on it!!

Please, please, kind sirs, take our money!!

I hate to see the decline continue, but I hope that maybe our bailout proponents will finally learn a little about bailouts and how they've been played for suckers.

[newtothegame]

56. If they can bail, they don't need it...n/t

[earth mom]

57. Don't you all get it?! They are PURPOSELY trying to crash the economy!

That way * can cancel the elections, take over as dictator, turn the U.S. Canada & Mexico into the North American Union-BYE BYE USA & The Constitution.

The end goal is to control us all, take away our rights and to SELL OFF EVERYTHING that isn't nailed down.

I'm talking

Water Rights
The U.S. Postal Service
Roads
National Parks
Schools

You name it. Anything that isn't nailed down!!!

WAKE UP DU! WAKE UP AMERICA!!!


FYI People:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XgkeTanCGI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gG9RPPPE_g

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/163939368-timeline-of-the-progress-toward-a-north-american-union

[katty]

71. yup!

[rucky]

58. Boy does Wall Street need to fuck off.

At this point I don't give a shit. Walk away, assholes. If we're fucked either way, at least they can go down too.

[skypilot]

61. kick

*

[seasat]

62. Taking the bailout admits your company is in trouble.

Another possibility is that taking the government bailout means admitting that your company holds a lot of bad mortgage backed securities. By participating, they admit to the rest of the world that they are in trouble and their stock prices will suffer of that adimission. Companies probably won't take the bailout offer unless there is a serious problem and they have no other alternatives.

IMHO, the only real reason for the executive compensation portion of the bill was to make it punitive enough to accept the government purchases of their MBS that only firms in real trouble would choose it. Most of the executives responsible for the bad decisions will probably have been fired or resigned by the time a company gets into that kind of trouble. The executives at the helm will more likely be new blood promoted to try and save the firm. Therefore I don't believe that the bill will really punish the responsible parties since they will possibly not be at the helm by the time the company comes to the government.

After thinking more about it, the real deterrent is admitting that a company is in financial trouble. That will probably affect an executive's compensation more than the measures in that bill.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

63. Trust me. The $700B is gone, daddy, gone.

Gone awaaaaaaaaaay.....

[lonestarnot]

74. Just like the "brazillions" in Iraq.

[dailykoff]

75. "Inauditable"

As if anyone is going to try to keep track of it.

[BR_Parkway]

66. Then don't participate - pull yourself up by your own damn bootstraps

and leave mine the fuck alone.


(wow, I can sort of see the Republican appeal of the selfish "I got mine, FU" attitude - it is somewhat invigorating to yell and it relieves stress as well :rofl: )

[jfkraus]

69. Fuck'em

I say we repeal the bill and let them wallow in their own shit.

[ddeclue]

70. Oohh poor babies...too bad!! n/t

[lonestarnot]

73. In that case, maybe they should distribute it to those who rightfully deserve it.

Us.

[AntiFascist]

76. Now the Fed is loaning up to $900B to banks directly...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081006/fed_credit_crisis.html?.v=7

It just goes to show that if the people get too 'uppity' then the Fed can do whatever it wants.