Ok some facts from history and how people got from point a to point b

[nadinbrzezinski]

we KNOW the new deal worked... so what are you planning to do to ensure the NEXT congress digs this legislation out of the freezer and uses it as a scaffold to rebuild the system?

Now first things first

All of you need to actually use the interwebs and find out what this legislation was... and why it worked.

You can, as always, start with wiki... and go from there

Or you can start here

http://www.salon.com/tech/htww/2008/09/19/rockefeller_and_morgan/

Nice salon article... if a little dated

But this is the time for all of you to realize that if you want YOUR congress to go there, you need to be your own advocate

You need to contact them

You need to take to the streets

YOU NEED TO ORGANIZE

Lessons from life... you may first want to seat down with a group of friends, and come up with a list of things you want them to do... like oh living wage... worhy goal... the Warner Act has a minimum wage... does not require much to go from a to b... but you need to be organized and contact them, often and early... and be ready to do much more than just contacting the congress critter...

So they won't listen to me!

Stop the damn excuses... because these are revolutionary times... and you folks don't have a plan.. beyond talking a little revolution that is.

Listen, posting on a website is not enough...

In fact, this place has as much power to change the world as a mosquito has to be more than just a little annoying... and can easily be ignored,. So you need to get to the point where you are more than annoying. This means organzing local actions, to be effective and to break the local news... You also need to help people organize to demand things are done... this means seat ins, and all that... and it means designing them in such a way that they cannot be ignored.

Oh and whatever you do... you NEED to keep this peaceful;... not that the OTHER side will do that. This is the way women got the vote, this is the way workers got their rights, this is the way civil rights happened

Oh and when you do that... dress up to a point, and look respectable.. MLK got that and he knew his people needed to do that... there is a reason and it prevents people from ignoring you.

But talking a little revolution at this virtual coffee house is great... but will not get you anything at the end of the day... for that you need to be proactive.

and that is why I will ask once again... what the hell are you planning to do to organize to pressure the powers that be to get what you want?

That plan has to include research as to how OTHERS did that and the appropriate history.

Now my plan would look something like this

Absolute right of labor to organize

No pay of CEO beyond a 40:1 from his or her lowest paid employee

Taxation of the upper 10% at about 70% no exceptions

Any company doing any business with a US govment agency will have to have 100% US sourcing

We must leave trade organizations (GATT, CAFTA, NAFTA)

Tariffs need to come back to make it a fools errand to outsource jobs

We NEED a WPA and we need to fund it right now

We need universal health care, no questions asked

We need to nationalize mission critical industries, ranging from energy to roads to hospitals... not that this will ever happen in this country

We need to regulate the living daylights of the financial system and some aspects, such as guv'ment loans for the SBA shoudl be handled by gov'ment banks

No need for student loans, any person capable and willing of going for a college degree should be able to attend all the way to a Phd... with a government lving stipend

Now none of this comes for free... so we do need national service, sorry folks... but goodies are not for free. It can take many forms, but it is good for the country and to create a we, not a me mentality

We probably will need HIGHER taxes... hate to break this but there is no free lunch

I'd also look at refunding and reactivating the depression era housing authority that allowed the guv'ment to buy bad loans and kept people at home... this is partly what the HOPE expansion is but it is deficient

But hey... I am just a right leaning DLCer that does not understand what we need... really :sarcasm:

And I am wiling to advocate for each and every one of these points, and have done such and will continue to do such. But at this point I am a voice in the wilderness... since we are spending a lot of time talking a little revolution...

[girl gone mad]

1. If the bill goes through..

it won't be revisited.

There has been a groundswell of organized opposition against the bailout.

You don't get it. We do not have a voice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

3. I keep hearing excuses but not a plan

excuses are nice, save them

Oh and you keep thinking this is the original three pager and that this is the end of the road... far from it


So don't give me any excuses, I am tired of them

If you have no voice is because YOU CHOOSE not to since talking a little revolution is far easier than that other path.

[girl gone mad]

7. Will you stop already.

I have read through H.R. 1424.

http://banking.senate.gov/public/_files/latestversionAYO08C32_xml.pdf

There are several good plans that have been drawn up and floated around.

Debate has not been allowed in this mad panic to act immediately without thinking.

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. Ok you read it, how are you planing to advocate for what you want

Posting on a message board is NOT ENOUGH

It is talking a little revolution, that is all

[AuntPatsy]

2. I can agree with alot of it but are you suggesting that some be forced to pay seventy percent of

their income in taxes or am I reading you wrong? And as far as universal health care and college tuitions I could not agree with you more, I think such would be beneficial to the future of this country if such were implemented long term.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. Yes, 70% for the top 10%

that was, incidentally, the rate during the Kennedy administration. You may want to know that it was up to 90% during the Eisenhower administration.

So there is precedent for this

[AuntPatsy]

5. Who fits this ten percent you speak of?

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. the top 10% of all income earners, the very rich

in fact I'd make this for the top five... but I mentioned the way the very progressive tax tables were done at one time

you are talking people who make five million and above a year... top five would probably be 10 million and above.

[AuntPatsy]

8. so seventy percent would have them paying seventy thousand on ten million?

Geez that is seven percent...umm, seven million? I can't get my numbers tonight..

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. Yes, seven million out of ten

reality is that by the time they do the usual to protect wealth it will be less... but it will be far more than what they are paying right now

A LOT MORE

[AuntPatsy]

11. As much as I feel the upper ten percent should be made to aid this country

and it's people, I am not so sure that such a demand should be made...the trouble is, regardless of what most people think, the reality is that if that much money was given to the government, can one be assured it would be used for the good of the people? I for one after living these past eight years under wanna be boy king's own actions that such would not find a way into the leaders pockets and not the people it should be used for...greed is a funny thing, it can defile a perfectly honest man in a matter of moments...

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I cannot blame people for doubting about the guvment, especially

after king george

But a progressive taxation system should be a progressive goal and those who earn the most should pay back

This is quite simply noblesse oblige

As to greed... yes absolutely, there is that risk at all times... but "I am from the government and I am here to help you" should not be scary... that is a right wing mantra

Of course it is, since we, in theory, are that government, we the people

So we scare the right wing elites in particular

[anigbrowl]

20. Yes, but that was a bad, bad idea

I would have to go on at some length about why and how it came to be. But seriously, even if you have a shitload of money, who wants to give up 90% of their earnings in taxes? Besides, people would find all kinds of ways to circumvent it.

[Oregone]

12. "we KNOW the new deal worked" - I don't

To be honest, I wasn't around then.

I know it was a world wide depression (not just the United States), and some and many countries pulled out of it at different times, through different cited means.

I feel many New Deal policies were beneficial in the short term, and long term, for the society in general (as well as from a philosophical approach). I feel that such philosophies, when applied properly (and not shredded), can help avoid massive economic failures or ease the conditions of them.

But I do not know that it was solely and significantly responsible for ending the Great Depression and providing the needed economic stimuli. Ive read many contradicting books on this, and it is something I remain agnostic about. Does it have to have been the end of the depression to be considered the "right" thing to do? I don't think so.

Anyway you look at it, it was a re-negotiation of the social contract because the masses had the political leverage to do so at the time against the upper echelon. It is good that they did so, but unfortunate our society transformed so radically as to forget about these ideas.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Well at this point you should worry about what happens in Canada

and I told you two, or was it three years ago? that this was coming?

By the way... this is not religious belief... the contradictory views have been pushed by the supply siders for DECADES. starting with the 1950 era chicago School of Economics


As well as the Austrian.. (libertarian economists)

Most economic historians have come to the conclusion that the legislation of the 1930s was instrumental, as well as it helped to set the scaffolding for the 1950s, well before the IMC took over

[Oregone]

15. Oh, well Im sure its not going to be all roses up here....

But at least we still have resources and functioning factories (fewer though). :)

We just need someone to ship our stuff to (who will not engage in trade wars this time)! Good luck finding them, I guess.

And I saw the train coming for years...about the time I first applied to immigrate (over 5 years ago). Should of looked further, eh?

And I don't always go for "most" arguments (argument from popularity), or "they" arguments (argument from authority).

But I understand what you mean and I have heard all the pros and cons. Alas, as I said, I view it as a positive and welcome a new "New Deal". Frankly, I feel capitalistic systems reach points where they need this, or they will implode. Capitalism cannot exist unfettered forever without moving to chaos, totalitarianism, or socialism (in my opinion). Since I don't think the later will ever happen, I normally opt for the former.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. The latter might happen but only if people got a plan

and people are talking revolution a little too much

I almost guarantee, and I am not a seer, that this will break NAFTA

Just that globalization is dead

As to markets, don't be too shocked if Canada looks both East and way SOUTH

[JDPriestly]

17. It kept people and what was left of free enterprise alive at

a time when the major continental European countries -- German and Italy were turning away from free enterprise and to fascism and NAZIsm. (Of course, Russia was already Communist.)

I know that the New Deal worked because my mother has told me about her experiences as a teenager during that time (she's now 92). People worked for the WPA. Farmers lost their land. My mother remembers how her parents cried because they had no more money, and how they were then able to recover. Yes, Oregone, the New Deal worked.

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. My brother in law

his dad went 600 miles in search of a job

After loosing the farm since the people running the local silo didn't have money to buy his crop

He finally settled in Blackwell OK, and worked at a WPA run industrial facility...

There are many stories like that

[Oregone]

26. My family story is a bit different....

Great grandma died of some curable disease because the coal mine closed and my great grandfather had no money to pay. He tried to organize later against another business the old owner owned. He was beat almost to death a few times. He eventually died from lung condition attained in the mines. My grandfather became an orphan before he was 5 or 10 (forgot). He made change running booze. Somehow he had a mind about him and got out of town where everyone worked at the steel mill as the best job in town. Not sure how, but he went to college (right before the war), but he was exceptionally gifted.

[Oregone]

23. "I know that the New Deal worked because my mother has told me..."

Look, Ive heard a lot of bedtime stories too, and plenty about the Depression. But that does not really seal the deal. To be honest, if you told enough desperate people that the Flying Spaghetti Monster decreed they would recover, and they did, you would be hearing about the power of the FSM even today. With that said, was the New Deal merely a psychological device to intellectually stimulate a people, and something they could always internally pinpoint as the source of their newfound success (as any social/economic program with a catchy name could of been)? Or did it have real world economic implications directly and significantly related to ending the Great Depression (which could of been obtained no other way)? Was it the "right" thing to do, or the absolute "necessary" thing that was done, which ended the depression?

Look, I don't know (And I try to find out all the time). You know, I don't even know if this bailout will work, or whatever fucking thing they come up with next. I don't have a fucking clue because I don't have a crystal ball and I cannot explore the alternatives (Do you KNOW what would happen if Gore was elected, if the Atom bomb was never used?). Maybe its just a viral fever that has to run its course, or maybe its just an ailment that needs a quick adjustment, and presto. Maybe things are too fucking complex for anyone to have a definitive bit of knowledge about (and that is just fine). Maybe as long as you throw something at it, anything, (water, dirt, rocks) you can stop a fire...and what you throw is more indicative of the society itself at the time it comes up with the 'solution'.

Anyway, Im sick of KNOWING. I find comfort in drawing blanks and admitting when they are there. Although I view this as a great time for the US to try and draw up a new New Deal (in terms of protections, regulations, worker rights, and philosophies) with the shifting leverage, who knows if that alone will ease the economic hardships immediately. You wouldn't KNOW unless you had a crystal ball and could look at every option that wasn't used.

[nadinbrzezinski]

25. If it works the recession will be less deep

as it will unclog the credit and get it going

If it does not... well the depression will be fun, NOT

[dailykoff]

18. We get it, you're worried about your investments.

Sucker.

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. So my investments are tied to a WPA program?

or the Warner Act?

My lord did you even read it?

Of course you didn't...

Now carry on, talking a little revolution... as you accuse me of being at home eating bom-boms and cutting coupons (Please do tell me you know WHERE that reference comes from)

:sarcasm:

[dailykoff]

22. This bailout has as much to do with the New Deal

as Hoover had to do with FDR. You're not fooling anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. Actually the core of the economic plan has some to do with early

new deal legislation

But you would not know that even if it wiggled to you in the face

It gets worst

The over 2T they have thrown willy nilly at the markets over the course of the last year are truly Hoover economics

By the way, in case you wonder I'll be fine... by the time we reach retirement age the dow should have recovered, and the little we put every month through my husbands work program should have recovered... after all this is decades away...

Now do tell me where that reference is from... oh wait, I will save it for you

http://www.marx2mao.com/M&E/SUS80.html

Of course Lenin used it as well, but you'd not even know that, or for that matter what depression era legislation looks like

Now you should go into the ignore list, but your ignorance is WAY... and I mean this WAAAYYYYYYYY too funny, in fact quite hysterical

Now do keep stamping your feet... it is all about YOU... and YOUR INVESTMENTS

WHile you do that, the other side CONTINUES to organize, and you continue to flap your lips

So in quite the rude language

WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU GOING TO DO TO GET THE LEGISLATION WE NEED TO PASS?

Care to answer that fucking question, or are you just going to continue the funnies? Because if you are, this is hysterically funny.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. kick for the morning crew

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. I know asking people to get out of the talking revolution and actually

doing something concrete is too much

As I have said before... these are revolutionary times

You are wasting the historic opportunity

And yes, I expect to continue to hear the excuses

Ah an old Navy Saying comes to mind... and for those of you who were in the navy... you know exactly what I am referring to

Oh shit, lets post it

Excuses are like A---- just that some are more smelly than others

Oh and for some of you... if you have a problem with some of us worrying about how parents are going to make it through, or neighbors who already retired... well here is a well deserved FUCK YOU