Bisexuals choose? Homosexuals and heterosexuals don't.?

[Stanchetalarooni]

I am hard pressed to understand how a homosexual or a heterosexual can choose anything other than the sexuality that they are endowed with.
However, if someone is graced with bisexuality then I get the feeling that choice is involved with the sexuality process. It makes me think that the most homophobic in our society are those that may be bisexual and cannot accept this duality within themselves.
Palin referred to abortion and homosexuality as a choice. Hrrmmmm!

[last1standing]

1. Very offensive.

I'm bisexual and your post is insulting to those of us who don't fit into your square pegs so neatly. I'd suggest you read up on the subject before posting with such ignorance in future. :mad:

[bean fidhleir]

3. Please read it again - you're misinterpreting.

All he's saying is what's true: Kinsey 2s, 3s, and 4s are not fixated, so "choice" (and social pressure) can play a role.

[last1standing]

8. No misinterpretation.

Bisexuality doesn't mean you are willing to fuck anything that moves. It means that the scope of those one finds attractive can be male or female. This bullshit suggesting bisexuals are more likely to be homophobes and sluts pisses me off.

Kinsey has nothing to do with individual attraction past genitalia. There's an ocean of other factors that come into play after that, including shifting desires and, yes, social pressures.

To suggest that bisexuals tend to be more homophobic is as ignorant as saying that someone who likes all hair colors would be prejudiced against brunettes. Once again, do some reading before smearing others.

[Stanchetalarooni]

15. I can see that my question asking has hit a painful nerve and I apologize.

[last1standing]

18. Then think about deleting it.

Then I'll accept your apology. Until then, this thread is nothing more than a breeding ground for insults and cruel jokes.

[Stanchetalarooni]

24. Ignorance is not bliss. I won't hide mine nor yours.

I am not ashamed of my ignorance nor my empathy and compassion.
I am sorry that this post has hurt you so much.
I do not believe that this post will breed insults or cruel jokes.

[bean fidhleir]

36. Yes, BIG misinterpretation.

You've never heard, or don't subscribe to the suggestion that the most violent attackers of gay men and dykes are those trying to kill their own same-sex feelings?

You've never been attracted to more than one person at a time? Yours is an entirely serial emotional life?

I repeat: read it again, because you're choosing the most mean-spirited interpretation possible.

[El Pinko]

10. only in behavior, not in attraction.

Nobody chooses what makes their nether regions tingle - it just does.

[bean fidhleir]

38. Sure.

Maybe I give people more credit than I should, but I tend to presume that educated people know that many basic feelings are largely outside a person's control.

[El Pinko]

39. But that's the crux of why the right's "it's a choice" argument is so wrong.

Sure a gay man could "choose" to ignore his feelings and be with a woman.

But how sad and unfair would it be for a whole chunk of the population to have to "choose" to bury their true feelings and never feel true sexual exhilaration, while those who were lucky enough to be straight don't have to give up anything.

How would straight men like it if gay people were in charge and kept telling them "it's a choice, it's a choice, so just go and be with a guy and only then will Jesus will love you again" ?



And your statement here - "Maybe I give people more credit than I should, but I tend to presume that educated people know that many basic feelings are largely outside a person's control." - makes me even more dubious of your motivations - what are you trying to imply? That being gay is equivalent to other impulses that people feel but resist? Like the impulse to violence or stealing?

As far as I am concerned, same-sex love or opposite sex love, they are both an ABSOLUTE GOOD.

I cannot believe that in this day and age there are still people bringing up this "choice" crap.

And even if it WERE a choice, so what? What the hell is wrong with a guy being in love with a guy or a girl being in love with a girl? Who does it harm? Why do so many people feel so compelled to control other people's sexuality?

I really don't get it.

[bean fidhleir]

42. "Sure a gay man could "choose" to ignore his feelings and be with a woman"

No, he couldn't! That's the entire issue. You could possibly do it, as a Kinsey 3 (I'm presuming 3). You could maybe warm up to her in time because whatever receptors control sexual attraction, yours aren't mono-valenced. But a man at 6 on Kinsey's scale would be as little attracted, sexually, to even the most appealing human female as to a female of any other species: zero. That's the nature of obligative sexuality. A *woman* who's a Kinsey 6 could possibly ignore her lack of sexual interest and engage passively with a male, but the literature is fairly clear that, absent actual attraction, men need some auxiliary mechanism (chemical, fantasy) in order to "get it up".

And your statement here - "Maybe I give people more credit than I should, but I tend to presume that educated people know that many basic feelings are largely outside a person's control." - makes me even more dubious of your motivations - what are you trying to imply? That being gay is equivalent to other impulses that people feel but resist? Like the impulse to violence or stealing?

No, I was implying (actually I was stating) that I try to give people the benefit of the doubt about what they know or don't know. My "many" and "largely" were hedges because people do learn to control even their most basic feelings at the conscious level in the service of some other goal. (To give just a single example: most soldiers learn to suppress their feelings of terror and grief rather than run away from the battlefield. The fear of death/dismemberment is just about THE most basic feeling in the world, easily as strong as lust for most people. Yet people control that fear well enough to perform their assigned role. It might cost them everything later, but for days or months or even years -they maintain.)

Controlling basic feelings is the stuff of literature - tragedy, usually.

[Stanchetalarooni]

5. Questions. Not declaratives.

I am trying to understand this idea of "choice" that people throw around when describing sexual orientation.

[last1standing]

11. Then learn before you postulate.

It's just as offensive to me when you state that I'm somehow able to make a choice as it is to anyone else. The only "choice" I made was the individual I wanted to spend my life with. Just like everyone else.

Why is that hard to understand?

[Stanchetalarooni]

23. I was questioning that maybe it is only repressed people that think it is a choice.

Given that, I question this idea of choice.
I am not questioning whether a person has chosen bisexuality, homosexuality or heterosexuality.
I am trying to understand why someone like Sarah Palin and others say this is a choice. I think that when these folks say that it is a choice they reveal more about their own repressed sexuality.

[Toucano]

28. That's offensive!

To suggest that people make a "choice" about who they spend their life with offensive to those of us who believe our fates are written in the stars or part of a Divine plan and there is no choice in our partnerships.

How's it feel?

[last1standing]

29. It "feels" like you're a bigot for belittling others' orientation.

But you do what you need to do.

[Toucano]

32. You're being ignorant.

There is no "belittling" in this thread.

You could "choose" to get a handle on your overblown, phony outrage and participate in a reasonable discussion.

Or not.

[bean fidhleir]

2. Quite right. If you're "obligative", to use an anthropologist's term

then you have no choice. Kinsey 0s and 6s have a fixed orientation. But they're a small group. Most humans are more or less in the middle (Kinsey 2-4), where choice --and social pressure-- can play a part.

[eShirl]

4. how can one possibly choose who one is (or isn't) attracted to?

think about it

if there is any choice involved it is the choice to repress or not repress part of one's nature

[Stanchetalarooni]

9. Perhaps this idea of sexual repression is what I am trying to understand.

Especially when it enters the political arena.

[bean fidhleir]

43. "it is the choice to repress or not repress part of one's nature"

I don't think so. Imagine knowing a man and a woman and being attracted to both of them, perhaps for entirely different reasons. If you choose a fully-intimate relationship with one of them, are you really "repress{ing} part of {your} nature"? Or are you exercizing your nature by choosing? Since we're all finite and can't do everything at once, choice is a very high-order human ability.

[volatileblob]

6. I've postulated something similar...

You don't chose who you are attracted to. Many of those GOP idiots who think you do chose, must, therefore, be repressed bi-sexuals, and they don't understand most people aren't attracted to both sexes. There is nothing wrong with being bisexual, but there is something wrong with people who are in denial and who want to dictate other people's choices.

[last1standing]

13. There's also something wrong with attacking people based on their orientation.

As you just did. Unless you have research and facts to back up your insulting claim, I'm going to suggest that you're a bigot.

And I have some proof to my allegation. Do you?

[Boojatta]

30. What is the claim you consider insulting?

Is it the following?

"Many of those GOP idiots who think you do chose, must, therefore, be repressed bi-sexuals"

[Marr]

25. I don't think that follows.

Conservatives say homosexuality is a choice for the same reason they say poverty is a choice. It's a way of justifying their disdain.

If you stood up in a crowd and said you hate blond people, you'd rightly be laughed at. But if you stood up and said you hate pretentious people who dye their hair blond, you might get more support.

[El Pinko]

7. As a bisexual myself I can say orientation is not a choice.

I am married to a female and choose to be faithful to her, but my orientation, IE the fact that I am capable of attraction to both ganders is not a matter of choice, any more than it is for people who are more on the extreme ends of the gay-straight spectrum.

Which is why I identify as bisexual and not as "straight", even though being married to a female, it would be easy to "pass". But I don't like to be phoney and I don't like to validate nonsensical notions like the one that sexual orientation is a "choice".

[chicagoexpat]

12. Bisexuals have MORE choices...

for that Saturday night date

[last1standing]

16. Great. The first of many jokes.

Should be post some threads for those who like gay jokes or want to bash African-Americans? That would be fun. :eyes:

[chicagoexpat]

20. U must be from Seattle! How many seattlites does it take to change a light bulb?

1

[El Pinko]

27. There are nasty, mean jokes, annd then there are harmless ones.

I'm a bisexual and did not take offense at that.

I do hope though that the poster knows that just because someone is bisexual doesn't mean they are not totally monogamous.

Please do not make the mistake of thinking that bisexuals are people who flit back and forth from one gender to the other.

In our fantasy lives, we may do that (and relish doing so), but in reality, many of us are as loyal to our partners as anyone else.


But really, I hate when people try to take a joke that was not meant in a mean way and try to twist it into something ugly.

[marshall]

14. And Freud said everyone has the propensity to be bisexual

He theorized it as more a matter of circumstance than choice.

[Cresent City Kid]

17. Choice or not, discrimination is wrong

To me, this issue (choice or inherent) is only "debatable" in the sense that evolution and global warming are: large numbers of people denying the truth keeps the "debate" open.

In terms of discrimination, it shouldn't matter.

[Toucano]

19. You may have a kernel of truth about the homophobia.

I recall as study that revealed that the most vehement homophobes experience arousal when viewing same-sex images.

I concluded that they were closet cases, but they may be as you describe; fighting their duality.

As for anyone making a choice about who they're attracted to or who they love, that's malarkey.

[last1standing]

21. Like most studies that one means little without context.

Yes, many homophobes experience arousal when viewing same-sex images, but it's also been found that many violent people experience arousal when shown images of violence. There are more factors here than just sexual orientation and to use this study in a vacuum is offensive to those of us (the majority) who are bisexual and very supportive of GLBT.

[Toucano]

26. Offensive?

You ARE misinterpreting this discussion. There is no question about it.

Saying that many or most homophobes may actually be bisexual and unable to accept themselves is not the same this as saying many or most bisexuals are homophobes.

The latter would be offensive, the former is not.

Also, your analogy is bogus.

Comparing violent people who respond favorably to violent images with homophobic people who are aroused by images of gay sex is inadequate. One would expect violent people to approve of violent images. One would expect homophobic people to disapprove or be revolted by images of gay sex. Instead, they experience arousal.

[Stanchetalarooni]

31. I do appreciate your sense of logic.

"Saying that many or most homophobes may actually be bisexual and unable to accept themselves is not the same this as saying many or most bisexuals are homophobes."

I think that the first half of your statement "Saying that many or most homophobes may actually be bisexual" gets to the heart of my initial post.

[Toucano]

34. Thank you.

The notion that bisexual people flip a coin and say "Heads I get some tail, tails I get some..." is misguided, but not uncommon.

Bisexual people who have accepted themselves may actually experience the most challenging lives when it comes to romance and partnerships in our society.

[volatileblob]

22. I think Freud is wrong about choice, at least so far as who we are attracted to...

Maybe someone could override their inate attraction, if forced to, but... who one is attracted to is not a choice.

[TahitiNut]

33. I refuse to make another person's orientation subject to my comprehension.

Whether or not I comprehend the consenting acts and personal commitments of other adults has absolutely nothing to do with their right to pursue happiness in whatever ways that do not harm others. Whatever floats our boats. :shrug:

I still cannot find this on even the longest imaginable list of the world's problems.

[Toucano]

35. Pearls of wisdom.

Yet again!

How do you always do it?

I'm so glad you're here.

[TahitiNut]

41. Thanks. (Grin) Even as a straight guy, I've often failed to comprehend the taste of other straights.

I've seen my friends and acquaintances "fall in love" with folks that I can't IMAGINE being with. On the other hand, two of my closest friends were lesbians and I shared a LOT of similar 'personal preferences' with them.

:rofl: Hell ... being divorced twice (they both liked sleeping with other guys), I'm the last person on the planet whose 'comprehension' should be imposed on others.

[The Straight Story]

48. They probably said the same thing about your SO

:rofl: :hide:

[TahitiNut]

49. Well, from what I've heard ...

... that's what guys said to my wives about me - offering sympathy - and that's how they got them in the sack. I have no idea how they had any opinion of me since I was in Viet Nam the first time and never met any of them the second time ... but that's what I heard.

:shrug:

[truedelphi]

51. Though back in the nineties I did used to wonder about

The crazy ovbsession that Japanese men had for Janet Reno.

I am not making this up - men in Japan swooned over her.

And it left me scratching my head.

But to each his own.

[closeupready]

37. This much I do know - I have ALWAYS been gay, even as a child.

so the very idea that I, as a male, could ever willfully DENY myself expressing some sort of NATURAL desire for females is COMPLETELY ABSURD.

To profess such a desire would be a LIE on my part, and I will not do it.

Further, it would be a perversion of my own orientation to attempt to create a desire where it doesn't exist in the first place.

So how can I even BEGIN to enter discussions with regard to my "choosing" a homosexual orientation? That simply does not compute.

[closeupready]

40. Although, I think it's interesting that in some cultures, marriage need not have anything 2 do with

being heterosexual/bisexual. In fact, in many cultures, marriage serves different functions, and this is why, post-marriage, infidelity is essentially a given.

I often find myself wondering whether, if I had been born in a non-Western country, would I have had a "normal" life, getting married and having kids, but having my gay lovers on the side, as is not uncommon in other places.

[Toucano]

44. Comment

This kind of comment usually gets me in trouble, but here it goes.

I believe the contemporary concept of sexuality and it's norms in the Western world, this boxing peoples desires and feelings into categories with little labels, is wholly incongruent to our biology. I think it creates a lot of unhappiness and stress for a great number of people of all sexual orientations.

I think we could abandon the entire concept of sexual orientation and not suffer a minute over it if we accepted that people are simply...sexual.

[closeupready]

46. I find nothing offensive about that, but I know some people here do.

But you're right, people have to LEARN that they are gay or straight or bi or whatever.

[bean fidhleir]

45. "I often find myself wondering"

What'll really bake your noodle, to quote the Oracle, is to imagine yourself having been born into pre-20th-century Azande society in the Sudan, where all males went through a well-defined, culturally-prescribed transition during which in their teens they officially married a young warrior (cooking for him, taking care of his clothing and kit, having sex with him on demand, being referred to as his wife, etc), switching to the role of warrior in their twenties, and finally in their thirties buying, with their by-then-accumulated wealth, one or more wives who were female and could bear children.

[closeupready]

47. That IS interesting.

:D

[Lyric]

50. The entire "choice" argument is irrelevant.

Is religion a choice? Yes. Is it a protected class? Yes--in fact, it was the very FIRST protected class, mentioned in the First Amendment of the Constitution. Therefore it doesn't matter if sexuality is a choice or not; there's plenty of precedent to justify it as a protected class either way.

As for me, I am bisexual, and I don't choose who turns me on, or who I fall in love with. But even if I *did*, it still wouldn't be a reason to deny me civil liberties and rights.