Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Credit Default Swaps, AKA: financial weapons of mass destruction

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:05 AM
Original message
Credit Default Swaps, AKA: financial weapons of mass destruction
In case you would like to know just where some of that $700,000,000,000 would be going:


The credit default swap or CDS has become the cornerstone product of the credit derivatives market. This product represents over thirty percent of the credit derivatives market.

A credit default swap, in its simplest form (the unfunded single name credit default swap) is a bilateral contract between a protection buyer and a protection seller. The credit default swap will reference the creditworthiness of a third party called a reference entity: this will usually be a corporate or sovereign. The credit default swap will relate to the specified debt obligations of the reference entity: perhaps its bonds and loans, which fulfil certain pre-agreed characteristics. The protection buyer will pay a periodic fee to the protection seller in return for a contingent payment by the seller upon a credit event affecting the obligations of the reference entity specified in the transaction.

The relevant credit events specified in a transaction will usually be selected from amongst the following: the bankruptcy of the reference entity; its failure to pay in relation to a covered obligation; it defaulting on an obligation or that obligation being accelerated; it agreeing to restructure a covered obligation or a repudiation or moratorium being declared over any covered obligation.

If any of these events occur and the protection buyer serves a credit event notice on the protection seller detailing the credit event as well as (usually) providing some publicly available information validating this claim, then the transaction will settle.

This means that, in the case of a physically settled transaction, the protection buyer can deliver an amount of the reference entity's defaulted obligations to the protection seller, in return for their full face value (notwithstanding that they are now worth far less). In the case of a cash settled transaction, a relevant obligation of the reference entity will be valued and the protection seller will pay the protection buyer the full face value of the reference obligation less its current value (i.e. compensating the protection buyer for the decline in the obligation's creditworthiness).

Credit default swaps have unique characteristics that distinguish them from insurance products and financial guaranties. The protection buyer does not need to own an underlying obligation of the reference entity. The protection buyer does not need to suffer a loss. The protection seller has no recourse to and no right to sue the reference entity for recovery.

The product has many variations, including where there is a basket or portfolio of reference entities, although fundamentally, the principles remain the same. A powerful recent variation has been gathering market share of late: credit default swaps which relate to asset-backed securities or Credit Default Swaps on Asset-Backed Securities".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:19 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'll add some thoughts:
think of CDSs like the briefcases on "Deal or No Deal".

The banks advertised that most of these briefcases were full of $1,000,000, and one (or two at most) had a ticking time bomb.

Except, those odds turned out to be way off. They had calculated them using invalid assumptions and faulty mathematical models.

By the time the briefcases started blowing up in their faces, they had already accumulated piles of them.

Now they won't lend to each other because each is convinced that the other is sitting on a pile of exploding briefcases instead of briefcases full of $1,000,000.

This pile of bomb-laden suitcases is what Hank Paulson wants us to buy.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:42 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. OMG! Someone who understands!
Don't you love the line "we're going to buy paper with real value, may show a profit"?!

Paulson wants $700 billion to buy virtually worthless debt, and by moving it off the books of certain institutions, their viability goes up dramatically.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hey again..
Here I thought I was just talking to myself. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cessna Invesco Palin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. It's not exactly worthless.
A lot of the suitcases contain both the $1,000,000 AND the bomb.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Right.
These banks were competing with each other to create increasingly complex models, many of which were based on faulty assumptions. The CDSs were traunched, levered and scrambled into Frankensteinian entities. This is why they're having a hard time marking to market, though I think that does need to happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Well, I think this is an important discussion to have..
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 03:58 AM by girl gone mad
so I'm just going to keep having it with myself. :P

Some of these Credit Default Swaps are pretty complicated, but most are relatively straightforward. It's when you started mixing and matching them that you end up with a tangled mess.

Let's say:

security A is a mortgage
security B is a pile of mortgages
security C1 is the first dollar paid by security B (AAA rated paper)
security C2 is the last dollar paid (B rated paper)
security D is a portfolio of slices of C2's (A- diversified traunch)
security E is an insurance policy on the default of security D

now put in $1 Billion in real cash across 5 banks and leverage it up 30 to 1 so that there are 30 copies of each security. Then mix them up randomly and distribute.

After the banks skim off their "added value" cut (let's say $5 Billion), you end up with $25 Billion in assets on all of those balance sheets.

Then throw in a sudden bankruptcy. Now we're watching a feedback loop tear a financial black hole into the fabric of the economy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. bad time of the day to keep a thread UP
And it's mainly the early morning/late night hand wringers around, so your use of facts and numbers will only confuse them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm a bad sleeper.
So I don't have much better to do at this hour.

It seems like my avocation just became a national obsession. I'm hoping the markets recover a bit today and cooler heads prevail. It would be great if we could finally elevate the level of discussion to somewhere above "why do you hate America?!1!".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. But seriously...
Why DO you hate America? Why are you celebrating the coming great depression girl gone mad? :P
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:08 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. It's the secret muslin terrorist in me.
Burn, baby, burn!

;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:06 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. I've wanted the whole process slowed down, hearings on all points of views ....
This rush to get it passed CREATED the collapse of Monday because of expectations.

There will likely be an upward correction today. It was never as bad as the Bushies said it was.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
9. What are your thoughts on what should be done?
:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. I think that we need to be cautious about throwing good money after bad..
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 04:21 AM by girl gone mad
I still like the idea of debt forgiveness in a debt-for-equity swap, as long as it is accompanied by a restructuring of the banks and prosecution of any and all criminal wrongdoers.

I also like proposals that involve taxing the fees on certain transactions and using other creative means to have the banks help pay for their bailout.

I have a hard time believing that $700 Billion will put a dent in the derivatives mess, but it's worth a try so long as we are not further burdening future generations and giving unchecked powers to Treasury. TARP just had too many loopholes and too much shady language.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Why do you think Obama backs the bill if Warren Buffett hates CDSs?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Obama is trying to get elected.
I can only venture a guess that he's been advised not to stick his neck out.

Buffet has given conflicting remarks on CDSs, but at some point he's said they should be outlawed, iirc.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
37. Yeah, he spoke out against them back in 2002.
I think he had made some money in them early in the game, but then started to get worried when he saw the huge growth of them and the growing risk.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:10 AM
Response to Original message
14. Thanks for your post, girl gone mad. I'd love to know
if you happen to post about this again.

There are too many people posting furiously about this who know even less than I do (which isn't much).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
17. Another way to think of Credit Default Swaps..
is as unregulated, undercapitalized insurance policies.

The market for CDSs is approx. 55 Trillion dollars, which is greater that the GDP of the entire world. This is why we are seeing insolvency, and why a 700 Billion cash infusion won't stop the crisis.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. and THAT is why this $700 bil bailout merely buys a few months cover
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. A third way to think of CDSs: 100% unregulated gambling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. it sounds like plain old gambling to me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. To a large degree.
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:01 PM by girl gone mad
Like, I take out an insurance policy on my neighbor's Ferrari.

It isn't as if 100% of these derivatives are worthless. A lot of the trades cancel each other out, some can still be profitable, but we won't be able to decipher the underlying value until we get disclosure. Then we can start to unravel the mess and restore trust.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:11 AM
Response to Original message
18. no bailout with regulatory reform. kick
the MF's can use shock doctrine to shove their crap down our throats.
it is time to use their own weapon against them and take this as an opportunity to get reasonable regulations back in place.
Have you heard anybody talking about actually fixing the source of the problem yet?

(Milton Friedmanite's ... not what you were thinking, although now I am realizing same same)

Gramm-Leach-Bliley 1999
Commodity Futures Modernization Act 2000
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
39. no bailout withOUT regulatory reform... I meant to say. plus a kick opportunity
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. And CDS's are protected from bankruptcy!
Thanks to the 2005 Bankruptcy bill. Make sure to thank your local GOP Congressperson.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. And some have less than no value.
Like if you're holding onto a $3000 derivative that exposes you to a liability of $30,000 and the deal goes wrong on you. It's a black hole of money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks for taking the time to post!
I LOVE AMERICA!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marie26 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Totally
A black hole of, what, $62 trillion dollars? You'd think that self-interest would stop banks from selling these things, if nothing else. But I guess greed overcame any more rational thoughts & the lack of regulation made these just a huge slush fund of easy money. That's extreme "lasseiz-faire" capitalism in action & this is the inevitable result. I wonder if the "free-market" ideologues are having second thoughts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. After reading this post ---->
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4106676&mesg_id=4106676

I really appreciate your input!

I can't believe the crap you have to struggle to understand to be an effective citizen...


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. self delete
Edited on Tue Sep-30-08 09:41 AM by Agony
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
21. "Pounds of Flesh" I like the sound of that...
Stopping a Financial Crisis, the Swedish Way

"Sweden did not just bail out its financial institutions by having the government take over the bad debts.
It extracted pounds of flesh from bank shareholders before writing checks.
Banks had to write down losses and issue warrants to the government."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/business/worldbusiness/23krona.html?_r=1&em&oref=slogin

I am not pretending to be a financial expert. We need a serious amount of transparency back in government and in the way our economy is run.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. How about a clause in the bill that specifies:
Any securities directly or indirectly tied to home mortgages originated between date X and Y (including but not limited to MBS, CDS, CDO, CLO, EIEIO, etc.) in United States jurisdiction, and not submitted to the SEC and fully disclosed to the public via web site xyz.com by date D will be declared null and void unenforceable contracts. Scare the cockroaches into the light, so to speak.

We don't have time to regulate before a vote on the bill, but we don't need very complicated regulations for immediate and complete disclosure. Then we'll have an army of free labor analyzing some of those securities. People who will be looking for profit (short or long), looking to blow the whistle and hopefully very quickly sorting out the winners and losers and figuring out which institutions we can all trust and who can trust each other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. I had a feeling you could figure this crap out.... nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. Great idea. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
30. K&R n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 10:05 AM
Response to Original message
31. thanks
Great information girl gone mad. Very concise and clear. Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
elehhhhna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. knr
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Another!
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
REACTIVATED IN CT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
36. K & R
Thanks for taking the time to explain this

Its so much easier to just accept the swill that the repugs are putting out there e.g. "the CRA is the root cause of this problem - forcing banks to lend money to minorities"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
moodforaday Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
38. I wish DU had an option opposite to "ignore"
where I could be alerted to posts by a specific person. I've read a lot of your posts since Monday morning and just want to say thanks. Oh, and :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
40. Thank you. This helps. Really.
I am a member of the "better bill, please" faction here these days. This is the kind of information that could steer the (less hysterical) discussions in that general direction.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Agony Donating Member (865 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
41. "there must be an end to speculation with other people’s money"
how about we get back to some principals...

FDR said this in his first inaugural speech.
"Finally, in our progress toward a resumption of work we require two safeguards against a return of the evils of the old order; there must be a strict supervision of all banking and credits and investments; there must be an end to speculation with other people’s money, and there must be provision for an adequate but sound currency."

So WTF are we doing with this stuff --->http://www.cboe.com/micro/vix/vixoptions.aspx volatility index? high volatility of volatility!?!! vol of vols? "catastrophe hedging" tool? series!1!!!1!

We NEED serious regulatory "rereform" (i can make shit up too)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
42. Thank you for explaining this so well, girl gone mad
I wish we could send you to the Hill to demand a better solution.

k&r
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
4 t 4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. If the seller has no recourse...
and they shouldn't because this is all made up bullshit, then why is it the right thing to do to give them 700 Billion dollars? Let the seller walk... Am I not understanding?
Credit default swaps have unique characteristics that distinguish them from insurance products and financial guaranties. The protection buyer does not need to own an underlying obligation of the reference entity. The protection buyer does not need to suffer a loss. The protection seller has no recourse to and no right to sue the reference entity for recovery.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
magellan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Did you mean to reply to me? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 08th 2024, 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC