The "bailout" is a calculated plan by Republicans to hobble the next administration

[dpbrown]

Free market, except when my buddies are in trouble. That's the Republican creed.

So what does Bush want to do? He wants to throw in another drain on the economy in on the way out the door. Can you believe they took Clinton's surplus and turned it into this?

The incredible drain on the economy of running two occupations, and now a massive handout to the richest of the rich on Wall Street just as the Republicans are about to be shown the door.

If this welfare for the rich package passes, it will hamstring the next administration, essentially guaranteeing that there will be "tax pain" that will sting people. When that happens, the Republicans will crow about lowering taxes and use it to defeat the Democrats.

Capitalism means failure of businesses that can't perform.

Deregulation caused this problem, and now the government is going to be drained to compensate the idiots who couldn't successfully run a business under deregulation?

The more I think about this "bailout" the more I think it should be tossed altogether.

Let the next President come up with a plan that helps the middle class without giving the ultra-rich the lion's share of the help.

[dchill]

1. I agree with you on EVERY point.

:kick:

[martymar64]

2. This plan has a lot of fans here too

[lligrd]

3. Yep And Wipe Out Social Programs

Been their plan all along.

[dpbrown]

10. I think the Bushes are still getting back at the government for taking away their Nazi bank

When they've been in power, they've shoveled all the money to banks and military buildup. Just like Sam Bush would have wanted.

[ContinentalOp]

4. Yep, I don't think they even want to win this one.

They want to turn Obama into a Carter. Actually, I think they were planning on turning Hillary into the next Carter but that part of their plan got screwed up.

[malaise]

5. Two songs come to mind

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnGBJAnYA9E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCwCzTV1cWw

[lostnotforgotten]

6. Grover Norquist Has Always Said He Wanted To Drown The Federal Government In Debt

So all social programs would be canceled and their budgets zeroed out!

[dpbrown]

9. Exactly!

And this then is part of their plan to shovel all the money to the top and zero out all social programs, ushering in another serf/landlord feudal era. It's what these people have wanted all along.

[cottonseed]

17. He wanted government small enough to drown in a bathtub.

and he's talking about social programs when he's saying this...

[Festivito]

19. What he wants is to kill democracy. Make it ineffective, and drown it.

This debt, this bailout will make our government ineffective. Mostly for the next leader.

Maddening.

[dpbrown]

20. Even more reason to reject it

Let the rich fail. They made stupid decisions under deregulation - deregulation they said they had to have in order to be "competitive." Bullshit. They wanted to break the law to become even filthier rich, and now that their stupidity has caught up with them, they want to hand the disastrous results to the taxpayer and keep the ill-gotten gains.

[avaistheone1]

24. If this bailout happens there isn't going to be alot of money for Obama's agenda.

[dpbrown]

25. I think that's what the Republicans are counting on, going out the door

This is a plan to sabotage the next administration.

[avaistheone1]

43. Sounds like more of Grover Norquist's drowning government in a

bathtub.

The repubs are very sick, sick puppies. Pure evil.

[RoyGBiv]

7. Huh ...

I guess that's what they voted for it in such underwhelming numbers.

[dpbrown]

12. Republicans voting against "Socialism" should hardly be a surprise

It's about time they found their spine.

But Bush is still shoveling all the money out the door, hobbling the next President. If it's McCain, god forbid, it will mean draconian cuts to anything even remotely resembling a "social program" (and with a VP who makes rape victims buy their own rape kits, you've got an idea of the nation under fundamentalists). If it's Obama, he'll be subject to a hole that he can't dig himself out of like Clinton did, thereby ensuring that the Democrats won't have another successful President like Bill Clinton.

[RoyGBiv]

13. It's socialism?

Weird. Others say its fascism. I wish someone could get this straight.

Certainly Bush and his cronies are bankrupting us with some intent. It's just odd the theories that are being delivered about how this is being accomplished.

I think it points to the fact that pretty much none of us really has a clue what all is taking place, just that whatever it is, it's bad.

[dpbrown]

14. That was "socialism" in quotes - it's what the Republican constituency rails against to no end

This massive government intervention should rankle those kind of Republicans, because it pisses the hell out of the "I made it myself, damn the socialized streets, police force, water, and sewer" nuts who populate the usual Republican watering hole.

The Democrats should oppose it because it does represent a huge shift of unchecked power to the government and creates an unhealthy "fascist" partnership.

It's bad all around.

[AntiFascist]

22. Naziism was sold to the German people as a form of National Socialism...

it ended up becomming a dictatorship that only benefitted the Nazis at the top.

[RoyGBiv]

28. And?

Since it was the "national socialist" party, I would indeed agree it was sold as a form of national socialism.

But that has little relation to socialism.

Economically, national socialism was sold as a "third way" between free market capitalism and Marxism, laissez-faire having been discredited by the onset of the Great Depression and Marxism in wide disrepute in Germany for more complex reasons.

In any case, these words "socialism" and "fascism" are being used grossly incorrectly in these discussions. With regard to comparing any of the so-called bailout schemes to fascism, people are picking out an element of a broad ideology and implying the broader ideology applies as well. We could just as easily say a desire to make the trains run on time makes a person an admirer of Mussolini's form of fascism. That is silly.

[AntiFascist]

29. It all boils down to this...

we are taking 700 billion dollars out of the national treasury, which (if it were really available) could be used for social programs or infrastructure, etc, etc. If it is given to wealthy banks in order to shore up the economy, then it could be viewed as a partnership between the State and private entities for the good of the nation as a whole. The nation (symbolized as a bundle of sticks, or fascia) is treated as being greater than any of its individual elements. How is this so different from Mussolini's definition of fascism?

[RoyGBiv]

30. I get your point ...

... but that's a leap.

A partnership between the state and private entities for the good of the nation is sold and runs perfectly well in social democracies everywhere, a great deal of the economic theory that fuels these nations derived to some extent from the things that *worked* during the Depression of the 30s. Whether we like to admit it or not, the root cause of the rise of fascist governments was laced with economic concerns that, had they not been addressed adequately, would not have allowed the odious elements of fascism to take root. People needed to eat, and Hitler and Mussolini came to power in large part because they put forward a plan to feed them and then delivered on it ... well, they fed at least *some* people.

In any case, as I said, I get your point, but as I've said previously, people throw around the word "fascism" in improper contexts and dilute its power. I don't deny the fascist tendencies of many of our leaders and those who seek power, and I will even agree there is a fascist-like quality to a certain faction of those pushing intervention in the economy. But that faction is not in control at the moment, which is part of the point. If, imo, we nay-say any attempt to address this problem as "fascist" we in fact increase our odds of the more truly fascist plan (because it is so simple and makes people feel good about themselves and their nation) being the one that breaks through.

[AntiFascist]

32. Two more points...

People can be tricked into supporting fascism when they don't fully understand what it entails. The National Socialist program was first sold to Germans stressing democratic principles. The Social Democrats later came to power with their own party, stressing democracy and opposing the Nazis, but of course were defeated. It took a lot of propaganda, intimidation, and pitting various factions against one another for people to accept the Fuhrer.

Second, I believe that there is a continuum between fascism and social programs for poor. This continuum is always in operation in the US: we see no-bid government contacts going to favored defense industry companies all the time, for example.

[RoyGBiv]

33. dupe

Danged connection errors ...

[RoyGBiv]

34. No disagreement there ...

It's the vigilance I want us to have that moves me to be cautious about the use of the term.

People call their bosses fascists because they make them work. This dilution of the power of the term is, imo, one of the problems, one thing that makes us less vigilant.

[AntiFascist]

35. Now I understand your point...

there are also people who try to confuse Marxist Socialism with Fascism when, in fact, history shows that are bitter enemies.

[RoyGBiv]

36. Exactly ...

My injection of this little argument into this thread wasn't exactly fair, I'll admit. I'd just run across a *number* of people confusing the two all day long, and it was starting to wear.

The OP here didn't do that of course, as explained in a follow-up. At the time I posted, this thread was right on top of another one with the word "fascist" in the title talking about the same thing.

Kinda caused my mental circuits to short.

[Hannah Bell]

23. I'd think the congresspeople have to respond to their constituents to some extent -

especially if they're up for re-election, & since Bush is out in a few months - no more $$$ & perks coming from him...

So I see a split between inner-circle bushites & others as not so difficult to explain...

Someone posted that defazio said the bush admin was abetting the tightening of credit markets - i'd like to see more on that...

[gatorboy]

39. I wouldn't necessarily say it was their spine they found.

More like polls showing how unpopular this bill was.. Oh, and it's an election year.

[Merlot]

8. That was exactly what I thought when I first heard the word "bailout"

"The "bailout" is a calculated plan by Republicans to hobble the next administration."

[4 t 4]

11. Yea this was all a set up-no doubt poor B.O.

he's fucked no matter what, They made sure of that. *'s last act on destroying this country.

[BrklynLiberal]

15. You are totally right....

:thumbsup:

[Froward69]

16. I thought

I was the only one thinking of this... Agreed. they want Obama hindered from the start. They don't give a rats ass about America, just their own power and greed.

[dpbrown]

18. I think people have got to talk to their representatives, and Obama, about this

If it is, as it seems, a plan to doom the next administration, then it's time to let these fat cats fail on their own.

[AntiFascist]

21. "Capitalism means failure of businesses that can't perform"

I agree. Some banks just need to fail.

There are banks that are doing well through all this, and I know for a fact that they are still able to make new loans to businesses.

[dpbrown]

26. Ultimately, consolidation, hawked by Wall Street as solution, will mean higher rates for everyone

This is an incredibly bad idea for banking to throw all these monsters together and create a giant banking conglomerate.

[AntiFascist]

42. Yet I have noticed in other threads where people mention...

that many credit unions and small local banks are doing quite well.

[dpbrown]

44. That's where people should be doing their business

Abandon the big banks or be gouged by them as consolidation erases our choices.

[spinbaby]

27. It's not about the 700 billion

They pulled that number out of thin air and if they get it, it's just a happy bonus. If you listen carefully, every now and then someone mentions what they're really after: loosened accounting standards and the elimination of the capital gains tax.

[Fire Walk With Me]

31. "Capitalism means failure of businesses that can't perform."

Disaster Capitalism means profiting from business that fail. Or are caused to fail.

Google "bush failed businesses" and note the profitability..."

[B Calm]

37. It's a plan that will eventually do away with social security. . .

[bhikkhu]

38. That is exactly what it will do

though I don't think everyone involved has that for an agenda. For me its a good enough reason to oppose it, though there are plenty of other good reasons.

[Mister Ed]

40. The take-away quote: "Can you believe they took Clinton's surplus and turned it into this?"

People, just repeat this quote to everyone you talk with. It needs no elaboration.

[dpbrown]

45. Thanks! I made a meme! I made a meme!

Every day I think about how great things were when Clinton left office and how they've fucked it all up.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. Then why did they stop it?