Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Anti-bailout people: your reality check is in the mail

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:53 PM
Original message
Anti-bailout people: your reality check is in the mail
Tomorrow is the 30th of September. So?

Well, it's the end of the month. So?

So, it's also the end of the third quarter. So?

So, the business cycle is broken into quarters. Meaning that regular businesses borrow the money they need for day to day operations - supplies, payroll, electricity and so on - in monthly or 3 monthly cycles. That's why typical invoices offer 30 or 90 days to pay, depending on the kind of business - because that's the window most businesses use for short-term debt.

Shouldn't these companies be avoiding debt, you say? Well, that sounds nice, but that means keeping a minimum of 3 months' operating expenses in the bank at all times - money which is more productive when it's actually at work in the business. Big order from a new customer - what if you don't have the cash flow to buy the supplies needed to fill that order? You lose the business.

This is the commercial paper market, and this is how most businesses operate. The big capital is invested in long term things, like factories or delivery vehicles or machinery or warehouses. Operating expenses are financed with short-term debt which allows a business to smooth out its cash-flow requirements and put more energy into actually doing business rather than constantly rewriting its financial plan every time something changes. Businesses draw on their lines of credit, and in order to extend credit, banks (or some large businesses in other sectors) issue short-term securities called commercial paper, which are in turn bought by people willing to loan out their money for a short period - when the commercial paper matures, you get the purchase price back with interest.

Well, like I said tomorrow is the end of the quarter. Which means that paychecks are going out, suppliers have to be paid, bills and taxes settled and so on. And for many, perhaps most businesses, that will mean reviewing their cash flow and adjusting their line of credit for the last quarter of the year - which sees the onset of winter, and includes the big annual retail events of Thanksgiving and Christmas. This is the most expensive time of the year for a lot of people, and the most critical time of the year for the retail sector. It's the time to gather in the harvest, store it in a granary, and buy supplies for the cold days ahead. And although few of us actually farm any more, that ancient pattern still shapes our economy, because ultimately it's subordinate to the cycle of the earth going around the sun.

So?

So a lot of people are going to have to renew their credit lines between tomorrow and Wednesday. But thanks to the situation on Wall street, the cost of borrowing money is currently sky-high - ESPECIALLY in the commercial paper market. In fact, last week buying and selling of commercial paper froze up for 12 hours. In other words, the credit cards of American businesses (and those in Europe, Japan and many other places) stopped working briefly, until the Fed injected some money into the system.

Tomorrow night is going to see a lot of pressure on the commercial paper market, because businesses have to roll over their short-term debt. And they're going to want to draw on their credit more than usual, because they need to start planning for the end-of-year expenses. This time, it's going to cost them more to borrow that money, which means the cost is going to get passed on to their customers and employees.

Of course, some businesses may not be able to sell any commercial paper, or may face difficulty in renewing their lines of credit. Which means they'll suddenly find they're insolvent. Which means their employees may not get paid on time, or may get laid off. Or they won't be able to pay the money they owe to other businesses for supplies or utilities. Or state taxes. Et cetera.

So, all you folk who are celebrating the bailout today and planning to dance around the flames if Wall Street collapses, enjoy yourselves. Celebrate now. Revel in your ideological purity. It'll give you some good memories to cherish: because that's all you're likely to have if the economic system hits a brick wall in this quarter. There may not be Turkey for Christmas this year, because there may not be enough money available to get them from the farms to the stores. That applies to Tofurkey too, for any vegetarians out there.

The economy is set up to fall off a cliff this week, and almost none of the people here and on Free Republic who are celebrating seem to understand how it actually functions. But in the coming weeks, you are probably going to find out what happens when an economy seizes up and goods and services suddenly become unavailable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes, but how do potato futures look?
I just invested the class field trip money buying potato futures on margin. Now Mr. Belding keeps asking me where the money is. Will I be alright?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks, very good analogy of this situation. There are going to be a lot of
small businesses unable to meet payroll probably and people will have to be laid off until the money starts moving through the pipeline again.

I still think they will get it done but man, can't believe the thing failed like this today.

K&R.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. BE AFRAID !!!! BE SO FUCKING AFRAID!!!!
Let's swallow any fucking legislation that is thrown at this problem!!! Just do it!!

We're all so afraid!!!!


Bullshit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
texan4obama Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
122. Anyone who doubts the need 4 a RESCUE, check your 401K
DUers, wake up - this RESCUE is necessary!!!
Don't believe me, check your 401K!

My selfish reasons for wanting to see this RESCUE plan approved:
I have a 401K that's taking a hit with the current financial meltdown
A job I'd like to keep
A house I'd like to keep
2 kids in college
Credit card debt with rates that hopefully will remain reasonable

<<<<<<The signs are clear>>>>>>>>
DOW down 777 points in one day
Lehman Brother – bankruptcy
Washington Mutual (WaMu) - bankruptcy
Bear Stearns - Government Bailout
Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac – Government Bailout
American International Group (AIG) – Government Bailout
Merrill Lynch – Bank of America Buyout
Money Market Funds - Government stepped in to stabilize to prevent run on banks

If the government does not step in and stabilize the financial market, many working class people will be hit hard by a collapse of the financial market. Many of the people on DU complaining about this bailout plan, will be fighting to keep their jobs and homes, if the government does nothing.

Here's why:
The key underlying issue in this "Financial Crisis" is that lending has shutdown, or loans can only be had at ridiculously high interest rates. There is a domino affect on the economy associated with this "Crisis" that impacts the average Joe Citizen:

Credit concerns means higher interest rates to banks and lending institutions, thus banks/lenders pay more for the money they borrow and lend to Companies and Joe Citizen.

Banks charge Companies a higher interest rate, which means:
* Companies borrow less and end up in a cash flow crunch (shortage of money to cover day-to-day expenses, less investment for future growth, squeeze on profits due to higher cost of borrowed money)
* In a tight market, Companies cut cost, which usually means delayed purchases and layoffs

Banks charge Joe Citizen a higher interest rate, which means:
* Harder to get a home loan, and interest rates make Home and Car loans less affordable for Joe Citizen
* Increased credit card rates put Joe Citizen in a bind to make anything other than interest payments on credit card debt
* Joe Citizen stops buying stuff (Cars, Homes, new widgets on credit cards), causing the profits of Companies that sell cars, homes and widgets to drop
* Joe Citizen gets laid off because profits of Companies that sell cars, homes and widgets have dropped
* Joe Citizen dips into 401K retirement savings (which has dropped significantly in value) to pay his bills while looking for another job
* Joe Citizen loses his home causing a continued downward spiral of the housing market and economy

I don't like the idea of bailing out the people that have caused this mess, but I believe an infusion of cash to the financial market (with oversight on how the money is spent) is needed to avoid a worst calamity.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #122
139. Actually it already happened
LONG TIME AGO! Lots of people lost tons of money in stocks in 2001. My mother lost nearly $100,000 there. I was working then, my 401K dived, but recovered some later on. Never never things never were good since Bush/Cronies got control of USA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #122
140. You are thinking of your own pocketbook.
I have no 401K.
I have no credit card debt.

My mortgage is a 30 year fixed.
With 20 years left.

The stock market is where you put money
you can afford to lose.

THAT'S why I don't have a 401K, and why
the money I have in stocks is expendable.

NO BAIL OUT!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. Another "I got mine" poster
DU is showing its colors today.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #142
161. Actually, he's right.
When you buy stock, you get a prospectus.

Every prospectus says in clear language that you might lose all of your money. If you can't afford to lose the money, don't put it in the stock market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #140
155. Selfish smug people are not very nice
Really - you're selfishness and self-centeredness is really disturbing to a lot of people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #155
188. I am neither smug nor selfish.
I have VERY meager savings.
I did not expect them to
quadruple, or triple or
double or MAKE anything.

I only have them to pay
bills if I lose my job.

Selfish and self-centered are
adjectives better directed at
those who fear losses of "virtual"
money made on speculation.

I believe that pension plans and
civic and labor pooled investment
schemes should be protected.

I DO NOT believe that the public
should be buying up BAD DEBT.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #140
185. "Fuck You, I Got Mine"?
Since when is that disgusting repuke philosophy acceptable here?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #122
156. It is not the function if government to protect equities.
We have government-backed securities. They're called bonds, and they earn a lower rate of return than stocks precisely because they are less risky.

If you can't afford the risks involved with equities, buy bonds. Don't convert the equities market into an under-performing bond market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #122
184. Bullshit... the banks have liquidity or they'd go belly up with the rest...
And my 401k and my IRA are half what they were, and it didn't just start recently.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. I doubt if anyone else would agree with me...BUT, if THIS is what it takes...
to bring a corrupt FORM of government crashing to its knees, or at least a good solid punch in that direction, then I am for it. And yes, I know what I'm saying. Who would have ever thought that unbridled capitalism would fall on its ass.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. How did you conclude all that from his/her post?
Or were you just on edge to begin with? I didn't see anything about jerking off to suffering, but I don't have my DU crazy glasses on tonight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. thank you for clarifying my sexual fantasties...evidently he/she was confused n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. I vote for on the edge to begin with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
94. You VOTE?
What do you think this is, a DEMOCRACY? ;)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Yep. Bring in the new era...or perhaps you never picked up a history book...
...and thanks, too, for being so civil.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. imagine your surprise: I have a MA in history- albeit a rather specialized
area of the field. And I don't do civil for people who are dying to see it "all come crashing down". I have nothing but contempt for end-timers- secular or religious.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. So you prefer giving all of our money to wall st?
If so, then say goodbye to Social Security and medicare and any sort of social programs forever. Any money you will have after the bailout will be worthless due to hyperinflation.
Maybe your gated community will protect you from the starving masses that will be majorly pissed and out for blood, but i doubt it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #36
70. another with trouble reading. . I was opposed to
the bailout legislation. try reading. and what is it with such stupidity as you exhibit, assuming I live in a gated community? Sorry, pumpkin, I live in a very poor rural community in a funky little house. I heat with wood. I haven't bought anything new in close to a decade. God, I hate stupid.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #70
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Mother Of Four Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #133
170. Wow-

I hope you can go back and edit that. Name calling in such a way is totally abhorrent.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalhistorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #170
194. That's the problem with people who either have
no argument or who lack the critical thinking/reasoning skills to make or defend their argument, as well as emotional self-control. They simply resort to name-calling instead, thinking it some sort of brilliant argument when it's really just stupid, pathetic bluster.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #36
149. Unfortunately this is true...

the Chinese have already warned that they may begin unloading US dollars. If we increase our debt by this tremendous amount, and the economy does not recover, then it will end up devaluing the dollar, creating hyperinflation, and interest rates will go up anyway. Also, we could likely kiss Social Security goodbye and universal healthcare will be nothing more than a pipedream. Healthcare will likely become only something people with wealth can afford.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
54. I'm not dying to see it all crash down, because it will get very bad. BUT...
I agree there is a part of me who really wants to see the fat cats, corrupt shell game politicians, Corporate America, and the Wealthy Elite shit meat axes, go insane at the thought of how much they won't have anymore, and lose their sorry asses. However, I'm sure there are plenty of the parasites who have set themselves up to make money on the other end of it too... Like those following the Bush Family model for business.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
61. It is hard for me to understand those who are willing to have people who are
retired thrown out in the streets, people with 401ks losing everything they have worked for just so they can or think they are going to get revenge on a few of the greedy fat cat bastards.

You also are going to have some small businesses that might not be able to make payroll.

If that is what they think, they are way out in orbit somewhere because most of those people will ride this out OK. They are going to be hurting the ones they claim to be for.

The important thing is to get this passed now. It has happened, so prevent the very worse that will happen if you don't pass it. Make sure you know how we got here and work to prevent it from happening in the future if you can.

Hell, nobody likes it but it is reality.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PVnRT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #19
173. What happened in Germany in the early 1930's again?
My memory is fuzzy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagine My Surprise Donating Member (938 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
23. And for the record, the only people who give a flying fuck are trapeze artists. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glaseatr Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #9
39. Wow
I'm sorry I must have missed something here because the only "ignorant and hateful asshole" has to be you due to simple fact there's more hate comming from you than anyone else on this board today. I really feel sorry for you, nobody should have that much hate in them. WOW.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #39
141. Bingo and welcome to DU
:beer:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TorchTheWitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
186. Well said
Thank you.

And welcome to DU. :)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
summer borealis Donating Member (244 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
51. Agreed
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 06:36 PM by summer borealis
This bailout was rotten from the start. Keep calling your congresspeople. This must not creep through. Corporate media types are already pushing hard. NO ONE I know is for this.

Our economy will be better in the long run without this.

Oh, and thank you TODD PLATTS!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lligrd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
85. I Agree. I'd Prefer A Real Solution But I Doubt That Will Be
forthcoming any time soon.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
145. Most of us ... it's failed over & over again --- !!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:58 PM
Original message
oh, the irony
you're telling me that because I favor letting reckless, fraudulent,abusive companies fail that I need a reality check? You're telling me that because I don't want to cough up a trillion dollars we don't have for a bailout that won't work that I'm the one who's not being realistic?

Please, I beg you, look at the bottom line. Sure, it would delay the crash, but it wouldn't alleviate it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
137. How dare you refuse to pay the Mafia protection money??
You must hate Italians.

:dunce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:43 AM
Response to Original message
163. What part of this crisis don't you get??!1!
Do you need me to build you a TIME MACHINE?!!1!?!

:crazy:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
4. And here's your own reality check:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
arcadian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. So, we'll have to live like the rest of the planet lives?
You should try not being so materialistic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. ...in a nutshell. But you must know you are throwing pearls before farmyard animals descended
from wild boar.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. Ah, I'm materialistic. There's a reasoned criticism.
I'll be sure to tell that to everyone who's likely to lose their job or be unable to cash their paycheck by the end of the year. Good vibes, peace out.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #5
119. The rest of the planet?
We talking War torn Africa or Europe where a couple countries had similar bailouts?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
6. An economic reporter on NPR today said he couldn't find an economist...
...who agreed with the dire situation the administration is painting ~ and three business owners interviewed said credit is tighter, but they haven't had to lay off people.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. Don't blight their little fantasy world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. The key word here being 'yet'.
I think only a small number of people appreciate that this is going to be like a baseball bat upside the head even to well-run businesses, because their finance costs are going to go through the roof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Still, they don't need to RUSH something through. The admin. has other "tools"...
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 06:09 PM by polichick
...to use, according to Cong. Issa (Rep.) ~ of course, they do.

And some female Dem Cong. from CA (Lynn Something) said it was just another Bush scam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Yes, we have other tools, but many of them come with a higher price tag
And you're fooling yourself if you think that everyone in Congress is economically literate (case in point: John McCain) or that some of the democrats aren't playing cover-your-ass too. I'd like you to consider my point that not once in my original post did I mention either political party. It's an attempt to describe how the economic system works, rather than assign or excuse blame for any one group. There is a lot of blame to around and a lot of political and legal analysis to do in the coming months and years.

If Wall Street were a building on that was on fire, I would happily agree that the fire has broken out due to a combination of arson and criminal negligence about safety and responsibility. However, the point of my OP is to draw people's attention to the fact that right now a bunch of neighboring buildings (ie other parts of the economy) are about to go up in flames as well and that a bunch of little fires are about to join up and result in a firestorm. In short, man the pumps, and get the fire out; we can send in the forensic team and revise the building codes in January.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I understand your argument, but it's NOT a fire and there's no reason to panic (which NEVER helps).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #49
58. It's an analogy, and it's a good one.
I could give you another analogy involving debt as nuclear fuel and liquidity as the cooling water, if you'd like. I am not panicking, just pointing out some realities about how the economy works that nobody else has seen fit to consider.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #58
73. I think you're giving the con men of the Bush admin. FAR TOO MUCH CREDIT...
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 07:00 PM by polichick
Funny how the NPR eco. reporter couldn't find economists who agree. The point is, there's time to do the RIGHT thing.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Marsala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #73
162. The NPR reporter must not have spoken to Paul Krugman
But he's just another Bush shill, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #17
74. hmmmm
So you are asking us to rely on the predictions of the pro-market people. I see.

But over the last 8 years, it is the predictions from our camp, the people you mock and ridicule and smear, that have all come true, and the predictions and promises from the pro-market people are now a heap of smoldering rubbish.

How did those dismissing the critics as "doomsayers," and denied their warnings, now suddenly become themselves the doomsayers, and how can they with a straight face accuse us of being the dismissers and deniers?

You could break your neck trying to make about-faces like that.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. Exactly, most companies have revolving credit lines for payroll and such already in place,
the types of loans that will be curtailed are ones for capital expenditures and additional growth by companies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
polichick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
75. That's how it was explained on NPR - it's not an ideal situation, but it's not so dire...
...that there's no time to think of the best solution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #44
112. Um, it's exactly those revolving credit lines I'm worried about
Additional capital investment always gets curtailed in a recession, this one is no different. But the commercial paper market is what underpins revolving (operating) credit, and it has already locked up briefly a week ago.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #112
148. But most companies already have those in place, you think the banks will rescind/close them?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #44
123. The cost on those lines can go up...
Capital expenditures down means layoffs at the places that make the equipment that isn't being purchased... increased unemployment... starts to affect things fast.

No new small businesses because of the lack of credit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Better Today Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #123
147. The ones I've seen are Prime+, so long as interest stays low, should be fine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Davis_X_Machina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #147
167. LIBOR + is more common...
....and it's LIBOR -- the interbank rate, not the prime rate -- that has been going thru the roof.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. Deliberate, write a bill that also helps Main Street and it will pass
Try to foist another wealthy welfare emergency bill down people's throats and expect more of the same.

It shouldnt be hard to figure out why so many people were against that monstrosity just defeated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. This is a chicken little post
It's not Armageddon. It's a bad bill.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
135. You called?


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catch22Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 06:58 AM
Response to Reply #135
166. HAHAHA
Exactly
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
12. I should buy new underpants today.. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chupacabranation Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
14. K & Mother-Effing R.
People need to stop cheering the failure of the bailout and call their representatives to impress upon them the urgency of this situation.

Not everyone is working for the gov't and has a secure paycheck this week; not everyone has the LUXURY of spending endless amounts of time debating.

Small businesses are losing their lines of credit. It's harder to get loans for payroll.

PLEASE CALL YOUR REPRESENTATIVES

Thank you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
50. name the huge list of small businesses you KNOW are losing their lines of credit
small businesses often do business with local banks. there is no local bank where I live that is in trouble. the small business where I am working has had two very, very good weeks. This business is celebrating its 60th year this year. This business also knows that, just as with investments, many small businesses have to have some diversity in those things which generate income for the business.

The tight lines of credit that I have heard about are between big banks. They are not the only sources of credit and any smart small business person should already have a line of credit with a local bank. If they do not, they should do so immediately. A credit union is even better.

The way the bail out was structured today was not acceptable.

I am glad that there were democrats who had the courage to keep the bail out "on the table" and to fight for better terms. Actually, I don't know if those places should be bailed out at all. Why doesn't the U.S. just start a bank and eliminate the middle man? Honestly. That would be better for taxpayers and for liquidity.

Some of you are so hysterical and make such assumptions about anyone who is glad the bail out did not go through that I'm glad you're not in decision-making positions.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chupacabranation Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
68. I agree that with no equity and compensation reform, there is no deal.
However, there are plenty of businesses where I live that are having difficulties securing credit and loans. One is an auto dealer that is having difficulties securing loans. One is a small landscaping business that is having trouble doing the same.

Perhaps it's just a problem their cash flow. But neither of them have seen times this tough in the last decade.

I understand wanting to 'punish' the government. I get that.

However, it's imperative that we hammer out something quickly to avoid dissolution at the margins of viable business. I don't want to see any more disparity in wealth than I already see.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. I don't want to "punish" the govt
I do want the banks that created these "junk bond" mortgage investments and who personally profited HUGELY to bear the most responsibility whenever that is possible.

I do not believe it is in the best interests of taxpayers and the American economy to throw good money after bad. There are many, many issues that must be addressed for any "bail out."

I do not believe that Bush or Paulson have our best interests at heart. I want our congress to negotiate for better terms, for better deals that have nothing to do with a bail out of the ones who did this. Other terms are possible that help small businesses - and if Bush, et al really gave a damn, we would see this.

There are other options. This whole thing stinks of corruption, to me. We are facing a recession no matter which way this goes, so I want the best deal possible, not simply a deal b/c it was offered.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chupacabranation Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #78
91. Right. And people in hell want ice water.
:)

We're not really in a bargaining position to get absolutely everything we want, unfortunately. We should settle for a compromise. It's the best we're going to get.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:22 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. there are people who are working on diff. options
who are in the House. they are working across party lines.

what I want to know is, if this bailout creates hyperinflation, which many, many serious economists predict, will small businesses be okay with that? when someone has to pay triple for some basic expense, will people have money to support small businesses then?

what should a small business owner do if the bill passes - knowing he/she is looking at inflation, certainly, and perhaps hyperinflation like no one has ever seen in this nation... or inflation with a recession, also known as stagflation.

what should the small business person do then?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chupacabranation Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. I wish I knew.
I work in a small business, have many small business owners as friends, and they're all worried right now. But they don't expect favors, have the entrepreneurial spirit they came in with, and the best part - have NO mortgage-backed securities. :)

They're going to hunker down and make it through by hook or by crook. :)

They're traveling light. Flexibility is something that Lehman et. al. didn't have...I think it's going to be alright. Lean years. But alright.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #106
114. so in essence, you agree with me
that this bail out is going to have an effect on many small business owners no matter what - based also upon decisions others have made beyond the bank failures.

a three year recession is preferable to hyperinflation for EVERYONE in this economy. Look at what Paul Volker had to do to get the economy back to fighting weight if you (and your friends) want to know about dealing with stagflation. it's worse than a recession.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
chupacabranation Donating Member (430 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #114
118. Fundamentally, I think that something is necessary. The devil is in the details. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #68
164. The two businesses you named..
are likely in trouble because of the slow down in consumer spending, not because of the credit crunch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. Ack! The sky will be falling imminently! We'll all be shuffling off to the farms
to eat corn off the stalk!

The saving grace of our decadent wasteful consumer economy is that 80% of what
we do is completely unnecessary and it's only about making profits.

The economy can go to complete hell and nobody has to starve.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
136. So, what's wrong with eating corn? (With a little sand, of course.)


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
petgoat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #136
174. Corn is fine, but if I miss a payment on my Rolex they'll take it away! nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. End of the fiscal year for some companies, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Union Thug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
20. Sorry, I'm not going to be frightened into supporting a bad deal.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 06:06 PM by Union Thug
There are better ideas out there. It's about time our so-called leaders start looking at them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LonelyLRLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. Robert Reich said today that the situation is NOT financial Armagedon.
He said we are in for a severe recession next year, with or without a bailout.

(Actually, I know nothing about economics and finance, so I am one of those lost souls on this whole thing.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
22. If available credit is the problem, then why isn't the solution
a temporary loan program? Why do we have to bail out failed institutions instead of addressing the problems their failure will create?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. Becasue ultimately it won't help the fatcats as much as it would....
just the average Americans....and we know that bush & the neocons are all about the richest people.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. The bailout bill is a temporary loan program.
It's loans made against real estate: effectively, the government is offering to buy the risk of bad loans. People who keep saying it's a giveaway appear not to understand how the market works, and (nothing personal at you) I am getting tired of explaining it. In a nutshell, the government is acting like a pawnbroker, offering some money up front in exchange for collateral which is currently unsaleable. The government is big enough that it can afford to wait for that collateral to become tradeable again, which might take a decade or more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. The bailout is a sure path to hyperinflation
The only real solution is to nationalize all of the banks and send all of the wall street predators to prison or the gallows.
If we give that money out, we'll never see it again. It'll head straight to secret accounts in Switzerland and the Caymans.
The Wall Street crowd is laughing at all of you guys and your duplicity in making the kleptocracy complete.
The government may be able to wait out the bad collateral, but the people can't. We'll all be dead from starvation long before that since Social Security will be gone, along with all other social programs under the soon to come austerity measures.
Of course you'll be fat and happy in your country club gated community.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
56. Why do you keep saying I live in a gated community?
You seem to think that my having some knowledge of and a strong opinion about the economy means that I am some rich posting on DU to protect my enormous wealth. In fact, I have way too much first-hand experience about poverty to want any more. I have one credit card, and it has a $300 credit limit. All my worldly assets put together are worth less than $10,000, and it's a struggle to pay my minimal bills every month. So kindly take your country club/gated community fantasy and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Frankly, I don't think you know any more about the government or about economics than you know about me.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. OK, Mr Economic Expert! Enlighten me!
Tell me how handing over the entire treasury to the same people that got us in this mess will cure all of our economic ills on Main Street AND Wall Street. How is it going to stop foreclosures AND prevent deflation AND hyperinflation? Explain how it will prevent jobs from being outsourced and how everybody will become prosperous in the bargain. Tell me how this bailout will cause investment bankers and stock brokers to get religion and suddenly work for the common good.
You put yourself out there as an expert on economics, so start explaining how this bailout will bring forth a new Golden Age of Prosperity.
I'll be waiting for your brilliant explanation, I'm sure it'll be great.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
83. I'm not going to tell you any of that, because that's not the case I'm making.
The point of this bailout is to prevent the commercial paper market from seizing due to a lack of liquidity. This is similar to what happens when an engine runs out of oil; it seizes, and then you have to replace the whole engine block, which is a lot more expensive than stopping to put in a quart of oil.

We will still have a recession even with this bailout. What it will do is get bad assets which we are unable to mark to market off balance sheets, so that the numbers on balance sheets will start to reflect known financial positions again and capital lending will take place with a price that reflects the risk involved. Currently, lending is almost at a halt because one of the major functions of a market, price discovery, has failed. Even banks which are creditworthy and well-run are having difficulty borrowing money in the interbank market because of this uncertainty.

In short, the bailout is a protective measure to keep the car together long enough to drive to the garage at low speed, where it can be given a much-needed overhaul (a new regulatory system, increased capital adequacy ratios, limitations on leveraging and so forth) and replace many of the depression-era controls that had been abolished in order to prevent another credit bubble. That will buy us time to pursue other economic goals, like moving to a green energy economy instead of dependent on oil imports and so forth. It's an emergency measure, and there will be other costs down the line. I imagine the total final bill for the whole thing will end up around $2 trillion, ie at least as much as the war in Iraq. So all told, the next generation is going to be working to overcome an administration which inflicted a 30% of GDP hit on the nation's balance sheet. On the other hand, if we sit back and let it collapse as some have suggested, it's quite possible that the total bill will be 2 or 3 times as high; conditions like that could result in a world war. At best we're likely to end up in a situation rather like the Argentine currency crisis of a few years ago, and I'll draw your attention to the fact that Argentine has not since turned into a socialist paradise.

We are not handing over the entire treasury to Wall street. Nor are we just handing money to wall street, we are exchanging for collateral at a stiff price. The point of the bailout is to take on the risk of the housing market, but with ownership of the collateral, so that when it becomes liquid again (which it will in about a decade, I think) the treasury will collect the profit, not the banks.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #83
177. You may as well give up. Some will never understand.
Some don't want to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tigermoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #83
191. Very well said
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #33
129. I'm NOT suggesting govt. buy the collateral which is unsaleable.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 08:27 PM by jtrockville
I consider that a "bailout", and I'm not for it. If institutions can't save themselves, then so be it.

I'm suggesting the government create a loan program so that businesses can meet payroll and students can go to college etc, since institutions are unable to provide that service right now. It shouldn't take anywhere near seven hundred billion dollars, and NONE OF IT should go to failing institutions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
143. A pawnbroker pays WAY below going rate.
We are being asked to buy KNOWN BAD DEBT at
top of the market prices.

BIG difference.

BIG rip-off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #143
157. This is not the case.
As far as I can see, we would be acquiring those assets at a fraction of book value.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Common Sense Party Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #143
176. 30 to 50 cents on the dollar is NOT top of the market price. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #176
187. It is if they are WORTHLESS. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #176
189. If no one wants to buy them..
then 1 cent is top of the market price.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #33
165. Equity stake was not guaranteed in the TARP bill.
I also think that direct loans could be a better solution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
180. It is not a temporary loan. It's an offer to clean up the balance sheets of
investment banks by buying their largely worthless derivatives at well above market prices. That's not a loan.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RoyGBiv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
27. Excellent post ...

Pity that it is necessary.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
28. If the bailout happens, hyperinflation will result.
You may get a paycheck, but it won't be enough to buy anything, not even a loaf of bread. You'll need a wheelbarrow to carry all the cash needed to buy anything. People will suffer and starve with the bailout or without it. Meanwhile, you bailout cheerleaders will be sitting in the country club wondering why the help is so hostile and why that big crowd is converging on your gated community with guns.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #28
37. Hyperinflation is starting now.
Absent the bailout package being passed, the Federal reserve is injecting cash into the system - in other words, it's basically printing money. This is a purely inflationary move, because none of that money is collateralized.

Thanks for your remarks implying that I hang out at a country club and live in a gated community. In fact, I share a small suburban house with 7 other people, am getting hammered by the decline in the industry where I work freelance, have a few hundred in the bank, and a few thousand (ie less than 10) in a pension scheme that I'm afraid to look at because its value has probably gone down again.

I can't help noticing that those who are very quick with the class warfare rhetoric, such as yourself, are also quick to assume that any voice in favor of long term stability must come from someone rolling in money. I make my arguments because I am currently poor and having serious financial problems, and if the economy goes off a cliff it's going to be very difficult for me to get out of that position for years to come.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #37
47. You have savings and a pension? You're richer than i am then.
I have much less than you. Class warfare has been going on since reagan and with the help of collaborators like you appear to be, their victory will be complete. If you're poor your should be fighting alongside us, not sucking up to the enemy.
As for the long term stability, it's an illusion. We'll only achieve that when the wall street hyenas are in their graves and the banks are nationalized.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #47
67. I didn't say I had savings
I said I have a few of hundred in the bank, which I don't call savings because I need to eat and so forth like everyone else. As for my pension, I have a tiny fund let around from a job that I had back in the early 90s when I lived in the UK, which I can't pull any money out of. If I could, it might be enough for a used subcompact car.

I have no intention of 'fighting' alongside folks like yourself, because I don't like authoritarian mobs. If you want to go throwing around words like 'collaborator' feel free, armchair revolutionary.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #67
77. If you want to throw your money to the wolves, go nuts.
Just don't expect me to willingly part with mine. I can barely feed myself as it is, yet you would happily snatch the last crumb from my mouth so you can feel like you upheld the system.
You seem to be awfully free with everybody else's money.
Come and try to take my last dollar, I dare you, armchair robber baron.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. Nitwit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:12 PM
Original message
Thief
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tigermoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #47
192. Care to join us in the 21st century comrade?
nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
64. The credit market imploding would do a great job limiting m3 and thus be anti-inflationary
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
89. How do you make that out?
We're increasing m3 right now and getting nothing back for it at all. If we just let it fail, then you'll see a continuation of upward rent spirals and a huge rise in unemployment, meaning that any fiscal stimulus (eg a massive public works program) is going to have to come almost completely out of the treasury because any private equity that can go offshore will (and a lot of it can, given the structure of our economy).

thanks for a reasoned objection, as opposed to some of the passionate but essentially meaningless ones. If you can see a way for the credit market to contract without any inflationary consequences, I'd like to hear more.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #89
99. m3 is created when banks do what they do, lending money
It's like this. I deposit $10 in the bank, they can lend out $100 based on that $10 sitting in their safe. That $100 floating out there is m3. One way to control m3 has traditionally been to tell the bank that they have to keep a larger reserve (for example, tell them that 20% of assets must stay, which would change our m3 number to $50) The problem now is that a lot of banks have made a bunch of shitty loans. These loans did not work out because (surprise of surprise) there is a real limit to how much debt a person can service. You can send out newly huge mortgage bills until the cows come home, if they can't pay it they won't and it's foolish to expect them to. The result of this is that the banks are fucked for making bad loans and they are going to be reacting in two possible ways: failing completely or suddenly becoming quite choosy about what risk they takes (i.e. credit will be harder to qualify for) Both failed banks and banks that make less loans are slower in producing m3 than the banks have been up to now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. OK, but the Fed pouring $600-odd bn into the economy today is just as inflationary
and it has zero impact on the structural problem because it doesn't get toxic assets off balance sheets.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #102
108. What are you talking about and how can you prove your comparison
I highly doubt that a $600 Billion issuing of money would be as strong a way to influence monetary supplies. My reasoning is that the fed has been operating on a monetarist basis for a long time and has always used the prime interest rate as its tool of choice for adjusting the money supply.

Those bad assets are the problems of their holders, not of the economy in general.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #108
115. I think you want to take a more detailed look at what the Fed is doing already
Prime rates aren't the only way it adjusts the money supply.

It's easy to say bad assets are the problems of their holders and not the economy in general, but the economy in general depends on the holders of said bad assets for liquidity. you seem to think that if the commercial paper market seizes only the banks will be affected by it. If I thought that was the case, I'd probably shrug it off too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Evidence for that?
No?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. When you overprint money, value goes down and inflation results
When you do it on a grand scale, hyperinflation is the result. You economic royalists seem to think that this bailout is some panacea that will cure all of our financial woes. Where is YOUR proof that it will cure anything except lack of poverty?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. Evidence that the plan will cause hyperinflation?
other than one simplistic statement?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
72. Than tell me how the bailout will prevent hyperinflation
You seem to be the Answer Man, tell me that? Tell me how this bailout will make everything in our economy alright, ushering in a Golden Age of Wealth for the Masses.
Overprinting of currency causes inflation, that's Econ 101. Where do you think all this cash will come from? The Tooth Fairy?
I'm no expert but since you claim such expertise then please enlighten the rest of us peasants. How is the bailout going to cure all of our ills?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #72
76. That's not it's designed for! -moreover, that's trying to prove a negative
Among other things, what's necessary is to calm down the financial markets to where institutions have enough confidence to extend credit to one another and also allow all sorts of companies access to finance at reasonable rates. Basically TO DO BUSINESS.

Including companies that all sorts of people work for- maybe yours- or one that your business relies on.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #76
80. Nationalizing the banks will accomplish the same thing
Why are you so intent on rewarding those who brought about this royal fuck up? How big is YOUR golden parachute?
Quit trying to cling to predatory capitalism, this is it's natural result.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #80
90. No one is "intent on rewarding" fat cats...
But some of us aren't so virulent in our hatred that we'd take down everyone else just for the chance to cause "fat cats" some grief or somehow subdue "predatory capitalism" (whatever your definition of that might be).

Believe me- those "fat cats" are going to be fine- its ordinary, hardworking people and honest businesses that will bear the brunt of inaction.

I imagine that you probably don't care much about that-
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #90
126. I'm one of those hardworking honest people
I've worked my whole life and played by the rules, yet I and everybody like me are the ones getting the shaft on this. It's people like me that will have to do without things like Social Security and Medicare and starve when I get old because your pals stole all of our money. Where's our motherfucking bailout, huh?

What, no bailout for me because I'm not a wealthy banker? Oh right, it's a gift meant only for the investor class, not for peasants like me. Forgive me for not knowing my place.

From what I've read, I care about working people a lot more than you, I'm one of them. I'm not advocating picking their pockets to enrich Paulson's and Bush's cronies and give the illusion of stability as you seem to be doing.

I'm angry because I'm seeing my future and possibly my life go up in smoke to satisfy the greed of a the few. So you think my very life is a sufficient sacrifice on the altar of capitalism?

My question is: Why are you sticking up for the fat cats and letting them off scot free so they can do this again to us in a couple of months?

The system is royally fucked either way we go, it's like choosing between decapitation or a bullet to the head. The bailout will solve nothing. And believe me, if this gets much worse, those fat cats that you so vigorously defend won't be fine. There's going to be millions of people out there looking for a little payback.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #126
130. :sigh:
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 08:33 PM by depakid
This is about keeping people, companies and small businesses at work which they won't be if the credit crisis spirals out of control.

Not telling you or anyone not to hate the "fat cats" -I would like them held accountable every bit as much as you- and that can (and probably will) happen in any case under an Obama administration.

Like the OP and some others- I'm just asking that you keep in mind that most businesses need various types of credit to operate. If they can't get it at reasonable rates- or at all, they will fail (or fail to propser and barely hang on) one after another.

That may well include the one you work for.

Or it may include ones that you company relies on to recieve goods and services from- or supply goods and services to.

Like or no, that's the problem. You and tens of millions of others will be adversely affected and may well lose your jobs and/or businesses.

Unless perhaps you work in the defense sector, which due to the nature of its customer bases, has somewhat less to worry about than, say, the retail sector.

Some posters have said this is blackmail- and you know, maybe in some respects it is- but unfortunately, the way it is right now. And we have to deal with it.

It's been said that revenge is a dish best served cold- and so it seems to me that it would taste a whole lot better- and the accountability and perp walks would be far more pleasurable, if we were all working and doing reasonably well when it happens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
martymar64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #130
132. I see your point, we're not so far off
We're in the shittiest situation this country has been in since the Civil War and there is no easy way out. I don't know if there even is a way out. Our lives have been forever altered for the worst by the greedy motherfuckers and perp walks are too good for them. I want life sentences and executions of everybody from Bush, Cheney and Paulson on down to every CEO of every bank that got us to this point, in addition to seizure of all of their assets. In this respect, the Chinese have the right idea when it comes to punishing corporate malfeasance. They must be taught a lesson that they will remember for the next 200 years. I knows its a little bit harsh but they deserve every bit of it and more.
I understand your argument about the credit issue, but it doesn't make any of this more palatable and I have serious doubts that it will do anything to address or resolve the core problems that caused this in the first place. WE're headed for the Great Depression II, bailout or not, it's just a pick between deflation or hyperinflation. They both suck hard.
I have hopes for an Obama administration, but I'm afraid it'll be a case of too little, too late. We need somebody bold like FDR at this juncture and I don't know if Obama will really do what needs to be done. Our body politic has atrophied beyond recognition, leaving us with a Congress that is afraid of its own shadow.. I honestly think that even with a filibuster proof Democratic majority in both houses, nothing substantial will be done. They are for the most part too wedded to the interests of Wall Street to take any real action that might actually fix something. Our government has failed us in every way and they will never regain my trust, no matter who is in office.

But here's to hope, I have nothing else at this point. And when that goes, there's always suicide.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
31. Angibrowl: Would you mind linking me to the posts you've made on DU predicting this meltdown?
Since you see the future with such stunning clarity you surely must have predicted the current meltdown years ago.

Er, you didn't? :wow:

Then how are we supposed to take your sooth-saying seriously now? Did you just complete a fortune-teller's correspondence course? :wtf: :silly:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
40. I don't bookmark my posts on DU, and I don't only post on DU.
Feel free to use the search function. Unfortunately for you, I more often post long messages about finance on another much smaller politics board; DU has so much traffic that I generally don't like to write long posts only to see them disappear with very few replies. However, there is some stuff of mine floating around the economics forum, I think.

If you don't agree with my argument, that's just fine. You can check the facts about what I wrote on how business finance and the commercial paper market works quite easily, and then decide whether you trust my predictions or not. It's too bad I don't gather all this stuff in one place, as I'd probably be getting a lot more readers right now if I had poured all my writings into a blog over the last few years, but I blame myself for that particular bit of foolishness.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ddeclue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
32. It's time to take it BACK from these people and stop giving into FEAR.
I will NOT be extorted in this manner.

Tough shit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onethatcares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
34. it's also the end of the fiscal year for alot of businesses
what incredible timing for a meltdown.

jeeeeez, has haliburton pulled back from iraq yet? has blackwell gone under?

How does the market function? We give the big boys our tax dollars and they ship our jobs overseas and tell us we're a consumer based society (that came after we were a service economy) and for years now Christmas has sucked big time because my wages have stagnated and the cost of Christmas has gone up along with my homeowners insurance, gas prices, groceries, electricity, water, and every other fucking thing that has to be paid for by the first or fifteenth of the month. Tell me how the fucking market works? They get profits and they create jobs and that's why we've lost over 9 MILLION FUCKING JOBS IN THE PAST 8 YEARS AND SPENT A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY ON A LOSING PROPOSITION IN IRAQ. Yeah, I say bring it on if that's what it takes to wake the people up that have been sitting in front of their tvs the past years and won't vote for a change of direction because they can't stand a person of color or believe the lies that come out of Washington. Yeah.

Meanwhile, the ads for high priced imported automobiles has not slackened. Have you ever owned a 60K car? Paid for cash or spent 500.00 a month on a lease?

Please tell me how the market works.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Naturyl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
35. When the bailout bill failed, 700 billion kittens died.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
38. Thanks, it is time to tell the truth about TOMORROW!
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 06:20 PM by jimlup
'Cause it is here now. Now we will see how the rest of the world takes this news! Holy Shit!

The bailout is about the failure of the Repuklian ideology. They still don't get it though. Someone needs to tell them that the ideal of capitalism is what is sold to the ignorant little people. The little people with a brain already know what the Wall Street financiers know well. Capitalism doesn't work!

Either Socialism for the rich and "free market" for main street or ... We have to use this moment of economic nakedness to INSIST on the sanity of socialism for main street too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
42. Nicely done.
Why people think this is primarily a stock market deal affecting only the wealthy or the "gamblers" is beyond me- though in many respects the stocck market does reflect these realities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Subdivisions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
46. So?
Why didn't you post the BEFORE the vote so everyone could go into today informed of the consequences?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
95. Many people have posted similar things
that describe the problem we are ALL facing in concrete terms with respect to day to day operations of businesses and banks.

Trouble is, you can lead an ideologue to water....

ideologue

• noun a person who follows an ideology in a dogmatic or uncompromising way.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/ideologue?view=uk

Usually we see that behavior among Republicans, so I was surprised to see that there were so many on this side of the aisle as well.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
48. Oh fuck a turkey and a credit line.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RollWithIt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:36 PM
Response to Original message
55. The bleeding will mostly be in the small business sector with 5-20 employees....
Like me, If I can't renew my credit line by the 2nd week of October (Wachovia already said its no longer available) then I'll have to start laying off people by then. I bought a new press in August so I could land a new client, that turned me briefly upside down financially (I'm profitable though and have been for some time), but because I can't float the credit I'm going to have a hard time justifying operating on a shoestring basis with no ability to upgrade machinery if needed. Basically it's either keep the extra employees and stop growing, or cut some employees to provide for a safety net in case things get really bad. So it's people like me that get to tell people they're losing their jobs a few months before Christmas. Here's your severance package, sorry the banks are failing, have a good life!

Bleh, this fucking sucks and I HATE people who cheer it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
59. I am very pleased they did not give that fucker..
a blank tax-payer funded check. We were being robbed and right before the criminals vacate the White House.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
60. The rating system seems to be gone, so I'll just say it: DISRUPTIVE
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #60
92. What's disruptive about it?
I guess that means a majority of House democrats are also disruptors.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
63. I look forward to finding out
I think it is amazing that this thing didn't pass. To see the people stand up to corporations is something that I never thought that I would see.
I guess I am more then willing to suffer.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #63
98. Unfortunately, like the so called "pro-life" folks
You'd deny the choice not to suffer to tens of millions of others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #98
144. instant karma
in the larger scheme of things there is so much suffering. For real, I have no say. The powers that be will do what they want. Let people live, let em die - whatever they want. All I can do is rant against the corporations and work my mcJob.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
65. What about the $630 Billion the Fed pumped into the economy today?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
93. What indeed
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 07:18 PM by anigbrowl
Basically that's pouring more gasoline on the fire. We've put money into the economy (by printing it) but haven't got anything in return. All the assets are in the same place that they were last week. So the systemic problem remains, and all we've done is a small currency devaluation. The difference between that and the bailout plan is that we'd get collateral for the bailout plan, even though it's currently illiquid collateral.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WhaTHellsgoingonhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
66. You know what scares me more?
Public speaking.

We're all wired differently. You can't scare me when my threshold is way higher than yours, and vice versa.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
69. I guess all those millionares better pool together $700 Billion from their personal funds then...
...and give it to the treasury for the purpose of the bail out.

That is, unless they want a collapse to happen.

I know, I know-"it doesnt work that way"- it is somehow *My* responsibility to pay for this mess, not the responsibility of millionares & billonares who actually have that kind of money...

In other words, if the economy is about to fall off the cliff, then the people with millions of dollars better get moving.

I'm fine with a bail out, so long as millionares & billionares are the ones paying for it.

I know, I know-doesnt work that way- *I* have to pay for it, "or else."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #69
81. Eisenhower, the last decent republican, was very effective with top tax
that was more than double what it is today.

I am with you on this. If you bought the pimpmobile, you pay to replace it when it crashes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
71. Maybe if the bill addressed bailing out the struggling small businesses instead of the banks...
...that have been extorting hundred of billions in interest from them for the past 8 years, it would have passed.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. exactly. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:06 PM
Response to Original message
82. If all else fails, declare war on your own.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 07:06 PM by bobbolink
Does all that superiority make you feel so much better?

Do you have the same sense of generosity toward poor folk, who get NONE of these breaks?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #82
97. I am poor, and I am not arguing for generosity to the rich.
I think the people who are arguing against a bailout are both misguided and misinformed about how the financial system works, and don't understand the consequences of what they're celebrating.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bobbolink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #97
172. And we could say the same and WORSE for you.
Can you explain how calling people names, people who you SAY you are on the same side as, makes things better? How are you making the world, and DU, a better place with your superior attitude?

Better yet, how can you expect Palestinians and Israelis to make peace with each other when you are not able to make peace with your fellow Dems?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jim Sagle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
86. OMIGOD!!! Throw us 1 tril NOW NOW NOW or the economy gets it!!!
:boring:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
87. Sorry I don't want a bill that will cause what it proposes to prevent

PDF link http://solari.com/blog/docs/Final-Bailout-White-Paper.pdf

I. Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis. Congress should
1. Disregard data based on the list of troubled banks maintained by the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC). The FDIC’s list currently has 117
institutions with $78 billion in assets. However, based on a broader analysis of
recent FDIC call report data, we find that institutions at risk of failure include
1,479 FDIC member banks and 158 thrifts with total assets of $3.6 trillion, or
36 times the assets of banks on the FDIC’s list.
2. Think twice before providing a broad bailout for U.S. debts given the wide
diversity of mortgage holders and the great magnitude of the total debts
outstanding in the United States. Just-released Federal Reserve Flow of Funds
data show that, beyond mortgages, there are another $20.4 trillion in privatesector
consumer and corporate debts, plus $2.7 trillion in municipal securities
outstanding.
3. Recognize that, among banks and thrifts with $5 billion or more in assets, there
are 61 banks and 25 thrifts that are heavily exposed to nonperforming
mortgages.
4. Get a better handle on the enormous build-up of derivatives held by U.S.
commercial banks.
5. Base any legislation on (a) realistic estimates of the loan amounts already
delinquent or in default, and (b) reasonable forecasts of how many more are
likely to go bad in a continuing recession.
6. Recognize the inadequacies in already-established safety nets, such as the
FDIC for bank depositors, Securities Investor Protection Corporation (SIPC)
for brokerage customers, and state guarantee associations for insurance
policyholders.
There should be no illusion that the $700 billion estimate proposed by the
Administration will be enough to end the debt crisis. It could very well be just a
drop in the bucket.


II. Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market. There should also be no
illusion that the market for U.S. government securities can absorb the additional
burden of a $700 billion bailout without putting dramatic upward pressure on U.S.
interest rates.
The Office of Management and Budget (OMB) projects the 2009 federal deficit
will rise to $482 billion. But adding the cost of announced and proposed bailouts,
now approximately $1 trillion, it is undeniable that the federal deficit could double
or triple in a short period of time, driving interest rates sharply higher and
aggravating the very debt crisis that the bailout plan seeks to alleviate.
III. Policy Recommendations to Congress
1. Congress should limit and reduce the funds allocated to any bailout as much as
possible, focusing primarily on our recommendation #4 below.
2. If Congress is determined to provide substantial sums to a new government
agency to buy up bad private-sector debts, we recommend that the new agency pay
strictly fair market value for those debts, including a substantial discount that
reflects their poor liquidity.
3. Congress should clearly disclose to the public that there are significant risks in
the financial system that the government is not able to address.
4. Rather than protecting imprudent institutions and speculators, Congress should
protect prudent individuals and savers by strengthening existing safety nets,
including the FDIC for bank deposits, SIPC for brokerage accounts and state
guarantee associations that cover insurance policies.
IV. Recommendations to Savers and Investors
Regardless of what Congress decides, savers and investors should continue to
invest and save prudently, seeking the safest havens for their money, such as
banks with a financial strength rating of B+ or better, U.S. Treasury bills, and
money market funds that invest almost exclusively in short-term U.S. Treasury
securities or equivalent.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #87
110. I agree with those proposals, but...
In practice that's a huge amount of legislation. A lot of it is exactly what we should be doing come January and a new administration, hopefully one with a strong mandate. But while I'm not in the least enthused about helping the Bush administration limp across the finishing line, I'd rather not have the whole economy collapse right before Obama comes in either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
That Guy 888 Donating Member (192 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #110
125. Show me some reputable economists who say this paper's wrong
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 08:17 PM by That Guy 888
...and that we need some form of this particular bailout plan before bush leaves office. I'm not an economist, but the paper does say that this bailout isn't a guaranteed success, and that even if it did work it might just cause the collapse it is supposed to prevent. How is that better than examining other solutions?


It seems to me that as someone else posted earlier, we are completely letting the 'pubbies frame the problem and the possible solutions. I'm sick of getting kicked in the ass by bush because some dlc-like dems and greedy 'pubbies want to play politics instead of finding real solutions.

Edit to add this:


How would the proposals in this paper result in more legislation than tossing paulson a $700 billion bone and endowing him the "God of Money" ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
138. This Harvard economist says that the bail out is bullshit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4127623

Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.

Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many mortgage assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.

If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

this is the real deal - Paulson, et al want to hide how worthless the bail out really is in the way it is

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
88. Did you ever believe Saddam had Winnebago's Of Death?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #88
101. No, and that has nothing to do with this issue
Just because the administration jacked up a lot of FUD on that issue doesn't mean that I'm endorsing the administration on this one. This problem has been looming for a long time and was abundantly evident to anyone who looked at the financial markets regularly. When the two Bear Stearns hedge funds crashed in July 2007, a lot of people said it would end up like this but were ignored.

People who say this crisis was pulled out of nowhere by the administration haven't been paying attention. It is not a purely American problem either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
100. so ANY legislation is the remedy?
you act as if they can do no harm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #100
103. No, but I think the bill that was voted on today was a reasonable fudge
I support the basic principle of the government functioning as market-maker of last resort and getting balance sheets back to being meaningful.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #103
116. fair enough
. . . but I believe that the fudge should at least do what's advertised. The danger in this legislation is that it's just putting gum in the mortgage hole in the credit dike. The 'balance-sheets' may well move back toward the line, but I can't see any meaningful improvement in the credit crunch until something is done to alleviate the most aggravating source of the delinquent debt; the failing housing market.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Truth2Tell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
104. Sorry. Not scared yet. Keep trying. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
105. I think a few payless paydays just might be a good dose of reality for some people.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 07:33 PM by roamer65
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #105
124. By that point I think you are past the point of no return. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #124
127. No. I just realize the gravity of this economic crisis.
Edited on Mon Sep-29-08 08:07 PM by roamer65
We now have two harsh choices, either 30-40% unemployment or 30-40% inflation.

I vote for 30-40% inflation and a lesser unemployment rate.

I am absolutely irritated by the "some people" who seem to want the system to crash just as revenge.

The Fed needs to begin massive debt monetization whether people like it or not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #127
175. Sorry. I was not arguing against you...
just pointing out that if we get to the point where many of the people here go a few paydayless weeks we are past the point of no return in terms of bailing the system out. At that point I think we would be super screwed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
107. Apparently none of you and your bailout buddies understand how our economy works
If we had taken that bailout, if we take it still with the core trillion dollar price tag, we will be setting ourselves up for an even bigger fall within six months. Why? Because we'll be overspent, tapped out, with a bad debt to GDP ratio. Our US Treasury Bonds, you know, the paper that finances our debt, will be downgraded. Moody's was warning about this last January, before any mention of this massive bailout swindle. Commercial houses started downgrading bonds last week on the mere proposal of a bailout. If our bonds get downgraded, guess what. No money for the government, none, zip, zilch, zero, nada. No money for Social Security checks, no money for infrastructure, no money for defense, hell, we'll be lucky enough to have enough money to keep the lights on in the White House. Do you understand what sort of cataclysmic disaster that would be?

We're not dancing around a bonfire here, far from it. However we are thankful for the fact that for whatever reason, enough Congress members voted against this bailout, because if it comes down to a choice between a recession or depression as opposed to no funding for our government, I'll take the recession or depression anyday, any sensible person would. Because if the government isn't funded, we can all kiss our country, our society and our ass goodbye.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #107
113. Not hostile to your view but didn't they say this bill was broken down to 250 B w/ 100 B if needed?
Then when Obama gets in he would look at the bill and make adjustment as needed or am I wrong?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #113
121. The initial bailout monies would be enough to tank the bond rating
Paulson has been saying from the beginning he wouldn't be able to actually spend more than fifty billion of the bailout per month. Thus he wouldn't be selling debt much faster than that rate. Given that Moody's was already spooked in January, and that commercial houses were already downgrading on their own last week, it wouldn't take much more than three months to tank our ratings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. Thanks for the taking the time to explain this. It will be a rough ride either way it looks like!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #107
117. I think Bush and Paulson wanted this bail out in order to hurt Obama's presidency
and to be able to play up the situation and blame it on him and then win back the white house in 2012.

and, yes, I do believe they are that ruthless and are the total motherfuckers that such actions would imply.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #117
152. So why was Obama HIMSELF for it? Think!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #152
160. LOL.
believe me, that's not something I came up with on my own. I need to say, however, that I think you are very naive.

that does not mean that I do not support any bail out. however, the bail out that was on the table today did not meet Obama's 4 requirements - so I suppose you cannot really say Obama supports what was offered at this time. What was offered was a Bush admin.- controlled proposal that created a little Paulson fiefdom.

Bush et al cannot dictate the terms here. The sooner they realize this, the better off the entire nation will be. In my eyes, the republicans have already lost this election and they haven't come to terms with this fact. Their losses are so huge at this time that they cannot pull another Ohio.

Or maybe my pov (only one small portion of my pov, btw) is totally jaded by the last 8 years.

I haven't given up, even so, on the hope of some deus ex machina - the republicans suddenly decide to be "reality-based" - but I think my hope is naive too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #107
120. Aren't you kind of assuming that our bonds won't get downgraded?
I get completely what you're talking about, and why it's significant. I think, however, that if Wall Street continues in this downward spiral, our bonds are going to down right along with it. On the other hand, even though we rack up our debt to GDP ratio significantly if we pass the bailout, it's secured with something tangible, and the resulting ratio would still be a lot less than what, say, Japan carries. Their government hasn't ground to a halt, but they've had a 10-15 year run of stagflation thanks to a failure to straighten out the bad assets of their banks when their asset bubble burst in the early 90s.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #120
146. The rating of bonds isn't tied to how the stock markets are doing
Two completely different animals governed by two completely different sets of criteria. Government bonds are backed by the government. If your government is doing well, not too big a debt load, has the means and such to pay back the bonds, those are the things that get a bond rated high.

Stocks are governed by how a company is doing, profit wise. If stocks tank, they don't take bonds with them(companies come, companies go, thus speaketh the invisible hand of the market). In fact, in times of bad stocks, it is usually advisable to buy bonds because they are a much safer haven for investors. That's why the yield on the ten year t went down from 3.85% to 1.9%, people were buying into bonds as a safe haven(yield on bonds go down the more they are bought up)

This bailout would secure little of any real tangible assets, mostly a lot of toxic paper.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #146
159. The toxic paper is ultimately backed by bricks and mortar
(as they say in the UK) ie - real property, even though it's wound into securities. That's very hard to sell now even if a bank or whoever has full title, but over a decade or two the values will recover. The fact that the debt is collateralized gives us some room for maneuver. Even though US bond ratings will take a hit, they won't go so far into the toilet htat the country stops functioning, any more than Japan has ceased functioning.

You are quite right about equities not being linked to t-bills, but if the CP market implodes and takes equities down with it, we are going to have to inflate the economy or face a Japan-style stagnation period. either way, our government debt is going to get hammered in practice. I would rather bite the bullet now than endure the sort of 15 year stagnation that Japan went through with zombie banks left and right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
1776Forever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
109. I can relate to this because I have been around a little longer then some here - SHI_ Happens!
I was thinking about this also and wondered how some people will be able to function like they always have without a credit card or even an ATM card that functions. What will happen when the companies they work for have their suppliers go out of business or shut down until things get back up. This will be a lesson to some as to how it was back in the 50's when I was a child living in a home with an ice box, outhouse, and coal stove. I made it and it was fun at times, but when I visited my friends homes down the street that had all the amenities I really found out how poor I really was. Good luck everyone - we are going to need it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iconicgnom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
111. WOW! I'm so panicked! My heart is racing. We gotta give wall st. $$$$$$$ NOW!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:40 PM
Response to Original message
131. So, you actually took time to write THAT?!
"So" is your key word, eh?

You're another one who doesn't know beans about money. Stick to whatever it is that you're good at, because it's not understanding what is going on in the world of finance.

We understand what is taking place. YOU don't. You understand the storyline you've been told, and you're competent only at repeating it. If the DOW falls 2000 points in the next week, the show will go on. Is this your first economic bust? It sure seems so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
anigbrowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #131
158. It's my third economic bust, and I know a lot more about it than you, I think.
You accuse me of not knowing what's going on in the world of finance; I notice your post is remarkably free of detail. Pardon me if I tried to simplify it for people to make it accessible. When you're done fuming, perhaps you can explain the 400bp spread on a2/p2 non financials.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #158
196. You haven't learned anything in any of them, then.
Keep running around with your hair on fire. You amuse those of us who aren't in a panic.

You keep thinking that $700 billion will fix a problem in the many trillions of dollars, if that will protect you from the bogey man.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-29-08 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
134. Banks have liquidity, and they are hoarding it. More wouldn't matter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:52 PM
Response to Reply #134
182. Yep... I don't understand why people don't get this...
If they didn't have liquidity, they would go belly up with the rest! Common sense!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
galileoreloaded Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:38 AM
Response to Original message
150. That isan amazingly non-informed... oh, never mind..........n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
151. the sky is falling! saddam has WMDs! OBL is coming to git you!
Boogety boogety boogety!!!

The market goes up and down. The market is irrational (and apparently should be run by sensible women, rather than hysterical men). The market can stomach a correction. The money is still out there. You're not losing money unless you are selling your stuff at a loss right now. Reeeelax. Don't let the bastards terra-ize you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
scheming daemons Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
153. The absolute best post of the day.....

Thank you.


Idiots who responded to you don't know that they are voting for their own economic slaughter.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 01:10 AM
Response to Original message
154. So, essentially, shouldn't we all just be stocking up on paper? Because there will be less around,
and the paper companies need more orders to stay in business, right?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
168. Libor Surges Most on Record
The cost of borrowing in dollars overnight surged the most on record after the U.S. Congress rejected a $700 billion bank rescue plan, heightening concern more institutions will fail.

The London interbank offered rate, or Libor, that banks charge each other for such loans climbed 431 basis points to an all-time high of 6.88 percent today, the British Bankers' Association said. The euro interbank offered rate, or Euribor, for one-month loans climbed to record 5.05 percent, the European Banking Federation said. The Libor-OIS spread, a gauge of the scarcity of cash, advanced to a record. Rates in Asia also rose.

``The money markets have completely broken down, with no trading taking place at all,'' said Christoph Rieger, a fixed- income strategist at Dresdner Kleinwort in Frankfurt. ``There is no market any more. Central banks are the only providers of cash to the market, no-one else is lending.''

Credit markets have seized up, tipping lenders toward insolvency and forcing U.S. and European governments to rescue five banks in the past two days, including Dexia SA, the world's biggest lender to local governments, and Wachovia Corp. Money- market rates climbed even after the Federal Reserve yesterday more than doubled the size of its dollar-swap line with foreign central banks to $620 billion. Banks borrowed dollars from the ECB at almost six times the Fed's benchmark interest rate today.

Libor Rate

The two-month euro Libor rose to 5.13 percent today, also a record. Libor, set by 16 banks including Citigroup Inc. and UBS AG in a daily survey by the BBA, is used to calculate rates on $360 trillion of financial products worldwide, from home loans to credit derivatives.

Funding constraints are being exacerbated as companies try to settle trades and buttress balance sheets over the quarter- end, balking at lending for more than a day.

More: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=alszNo3N0CHo&refer=home
-------------

That's going to hit home- as you mention, right around turkey day.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
169. You'll never be able to talk sense to the Pitchfork Brigade
They're so caught up in criticizing the "FEAR" that they're going to have to feel it before they know it. For most of them, this will mean eating tons of economic shit, up to and including job loss and foreclosure, etc. The Pitchfork Brigade would rather roar angrily than think about how things actually work. They'll get to experience the full brunt of it soon enough.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
HughMoran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
171. kick
must read post
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OakCliffDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
178. It is also the end of the fiscal year for the Federal Government
But I think all of the congress critters are going to be paid on schedule
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:44 PM
Response to Original message
179. So why not just put the Fed in the commerical paper business?
That business makes money.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Cronus Protagonist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #179
181. Well, then the CEOs on Wall street won't get billions of dollars
Simple.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Geek_Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-30-08 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
183. Can I revel in my ideological purity since Wall street didn't collapse today?
Or is Doomsday now set for Wednesday or perhaps Thursday or do I have to wait for the end of the calendar year?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tigermoose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:15 PM
Response to Original message
190. Ouch. Great line
"The economy is set up to fall off a cliff this week, and almost none of the people here and on Free Republic who are celebrating seem to understand how it actually functions. "
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
193. Bailout people: Chicken Little gets hit with another acorn.
I've noticed that the DUers clamoring for a bailout don't understand anything about this so called crisis, other than what they've been fed, baby food style, by the complicit media.

Keep running around with your hair on fire. It's amusing for those of us who aren't in a panic because we've been here before and know the routine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-01-08 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
195. Bailout Idiots... thanks for Bailing Out Criminals While Screwing Average Americans
glad to know we are all on the same team....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed May 01st 2024, 08:21 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (1/22-2007 thru 12/14/2010) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC