Why does Obama label Venezuela a "Rogue State"?

[bvar22]

Venezuela has open and transparent elections (according to Jimmy Carter).

Their President was elected by wide margin, and is very popular with a strong majority of Venezuelans.

Venezuela does not support any terrorist groups.

Venezuela has not invaded anyone.

Venezuela does not export weapons, weapons technology, or weapons "experts".

Venezuela pays their own way. They are not a "debtor nation". In fact, Venezuela has been a leader in providing financial aid to many struggling countries including the USA.

Education, poverty, health, and housing have all improved under the current president.

So why does Obama (and the Democratic Party) insist that Venezuela is a
"Rogue Nation"?

[EFerrari]

1. He sounds just like Bush when he talks about Venezuela.

It's probably about appearing strong by challenging the caricature of Chavez Bush sold to the American public.

[Fridays Child]

2. Given the level of enlightenment in this country regarding Venezuela...

...to do anything else would probably be political suicide for him.

[Raksha]

34. That's what I thought too.

He was speaking to the common "perception" of Venezuela and not the reality. But I still didn't like it.

[avaistheone1]

102. I don't like it when he is speaking he addresses the least common denominator in the audience.

How do we know that Obama really believe diffently?

[G_j]

59. It would have been preferable not to even bring it up

as I remember, Venezuela was not mentioned in the questioning or by McCain. Maybe I'm wrong?

[Maat]

3. All good points.

I noticed that also, and it troubled me.

[DemFromMem]

4. Let's not kid ourselves

The joint military exercises with the Russians this week are not about being all cuddly. We can pretend that they'll be nice to us when Bush is gone and Obama is President, but I'll believe that when I see it. I have a number of Venezuelan friends who have told me about the thuggish tactics of the government particularly against the country's Jewish community. Here's a recent article from the left wing paper The Forward that tells a little about this - http://www.forward.com/articles/12500/ .

The enemy of our enemy is not always our friend.

[SteppingRazor]

9. Also, it's just not true that Venezuela doesn't support terrorists.

(see: FARC)

That said, I don't think anything we've mentioned precludes America from sitting down with Venezuela and finding common ground. But I do think there's plenty to point at that would allow a politician to label Venezuela a "rogue state." My problem is not whether or not Venezuela deserves the epithet, but whether or not the would-be president should be using it. It's hardly helpful if real diplomacy is your goal here.

On edit: Some sourcing, for interested folks:

A story from May 2008 on Chavez's ties to FARC:
http://www.economist.com/world/americas/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11412645

A story from today about a monument to a dead FARC leader that was just unveiled in Caracas. The leftist group that raised the monument maintains that Chavez wasn't involved, but you'd have to be stupifyingly naive to beleive that they could raise this monument in Venezuela's capital without Chavez' OK -- especially given that one of his closest allies was at the unveiling.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gnQ-5aU2oAqovx-as842WxItT9ywD93ERC6G1

[DemFromMem]

14. true

I don't think the "shunning" foreign policy of the Bush Administration has gotten us anywhere. My sense is that Obama will bring pragmatism back to foreign policy including in dealing with regimes that are troublemakers.

[EFerrari]

15. Could you please tell how you know Venezuela supports FARC?

Thanks

[SteppingRazor]

17. I updated my post with some links.

The story in the economist is damning. The question is not whether Chavez supports FARC -- he does -- it's whether that should stop us from having at least tentative relatinos with the country. The more we treat Chavez like an enemy, the more we push him into the arms of degenerates like FARC.

[EFerrari]

23. That Economist article is spin and was debunked months ago

most notably by Palast. Let me see if I can find his article for you.

The new monument was not put up by Chavez nor was he nor his office at the unveiling in an official capacity. Chavez is too smart to give BushCo such an opening.

ETA: I believe this is the link to that article and there may be more than one from Palast, I don't remember in all honesty.

http://www.gregpalast.com/300-million-from-chavez-to-farc-a-fake/

[SteppingRazor]

29. That doesn't even come close to debunking the Economist article!

Palast says that the $300 million to FARC relies on the word of Bush and the president of COlombia, but the Economist article -- written two months AFTER the Palast one -- says that the e-mails have been authenticated by Interpol and 64 experts from around the world.

[EFerrari]

33. Did you read Greg's article? There are emails

and they were written while Venezuela was helping with a hostage release BY THE INVITATION of Bush's lapdogs in Colombia. There is no proof whatsoever that Chavez sent money or material to FARC.

Bush tried to get a nice little war on involving Ecuador, Venezuela and Colombia but he was outsmarted.

[EFerrari]

38. SR: I remember a bunch of threads on this but

here's one that has a good run down of how the Interpol stuff was spun in the press. The whole point at the time was not to show that Chavez supported "terrorists" but to start a conflict involving Colombia which is in Bush's pocket. It nearly worked, too!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x359850

[bvar22]

25. It doesn't seem smart to alienate Venezuela....

...and the entire South/Central American continent. Our opposition posture is pushing them and their emerging markets to the Russians and Chinese.

The Populist Democratic movements are gaining power in South/Central America.
We should be supporting these emerging new democracies, and gaining access to their markets.

[Pastiche423]

56. It isn't smart to alienate Venezuela

It's another part of his righward turn since he got the nom. Gotta have a boogeyman (epecially brown ones that try to take care of their citizens) or two to keep TPTB happy.

For an intelligent man, he sure makes some stupid moves.

[bvar22]

54. Venezuela doesn't support any "Terrorists" that pose a threat to the USA.

FARC is a creation of the USA. Without our interference in Colombia, FARC would not exist.

FARC is a nasty organization that poses a threat to the Right Wing Oligarchs in Colombia.
While I don't support the tactics employed by FARC, it is an understandable response to 50 years of Right Wing Death Squads and genocide supported and employed by the current government of Colombia.

Colombia is one of the last remaining Right Wing Colonial governments in South America. Without continuous and ultimately futile propping up by the USA, the current colonial Oligarchs would be quickly removed, and Colombia would become a new democracy that represents the Colombian people and NOT the interests of US Corporations.

VIVA Democracy!

[EFerrari]

66. I remembered too, that in the period he was negotiating with them

for hostages, Chavez said armed struggle was the past and not the future.

People always seem to remember the smears but never the debunking.

[PatrynXX]

85. Chavez = Castro

that being said. I don't trust him. Putin is more trustworthy than Chavez..
or is that Chavez = McCain both have an awesome temper

[EFerrari]

11. So, did Brenner support the coup or not?

:)

[EFerrari]

53. Interesting. Brenner did participate in the coup.

Apparently there is video of him in the presidential palace with Carmona. So, not only did he "support" it, he PARTICIPATED in it. And as it's on tape, the author of this story knew that.

You know, that article your friend sent you seems to be bs.

[lumpy]

13. The US has interfered in internal affairs in Venezuela so I

imagine Chavez has reason to fear the US will be trying to topple his government. I reserve expressing my reaction to the Jewish blog until more is known.

[Odin2005]

24. I say let the Russian have their fleet there, Putin wants us to react to them so...

he and Chavez can go on an anti-US rant. Lets call Pootie-Poo's bluff.

[HEyHEY]

32. Yeap, I've spent some time with some Venezualans lately

And they've told me Chavez ain't as great as advertised. If you don't agree with him, he makes your life... shall we say, hard?

[bvar22]

37. Hasn't the USA held joint military exercises with Russia?

I worked in Venezuela in the late 90s for an Oil Company.
The economic stratification at that time was apalling.
The White Gentry (mostly foreign nationals/dual nationalities) owned it ALL.

Venezuela is beautiful,
AND it belongs to the Venezuelans.

[leveymg]

52. The Venezuelan Jewish right-wing has been very un-nice to Chavez.

Don't fool yourself. This isn't about religion, it's about politics. The South American right-wing includes prominent Jewish community and business leaders, some of whom are alleged to have had a role in the 2002 coup.

A popular state prosecutor aligned with Chavez was assassinated in Caracas in November 2002. That event led to a court-authorized raid of a Jewish school, where arms were reportedly being stored. Nothing of the sort was found there, and no one was arrested, but the incident set off a firestorm of criticism of the Chavez government being anti-semitic. See, http://www.tau.ac.il/Anti-Semitism/asw2004/venezuela.htm

Given the violent methods of the Venezuelan right-wing, Chavez and his supporters are understandably pissed-off at the political opposition, including some Jews. However, there is no official persecution of Jews in Venezuela, today.

The head of the Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela has said that right-wing Jewish interests in America are stirring up problems about Venezuelan "issues that you don't know or understand." See, http://www.alternet.org/story/31797/ ; http://www.tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/news_item.2006-03-15.2335417477

Pundits and rabbis

Even before Chavez's Christmas remarks, the American-born "Grand Rabbi" of Sao Paulo, Henri Sobel, who has enough influence to pull on Bush's ear, told the president about the "'precarious' situation of the Jews in Venezuela, accusing Hugo Chavez of being an 'anti-Semite'," according to the Agence France-Presse. He later conceded to AFP that "even though there is no discrimination in Venezuela officially, Hugo Chavez does everything he can to spread hatred against the minorities."

Venezuela's Jewish community doesn't agree. The Confederation of Jewish Associations of Venezuela (CAIV) responded to the Wiesenthal accusations with a letter from CAIV president Fred Pressner that said, "You have acted on your own, without consulting us, on issues that you don't know or understand," and that, "We believe the president was not talking about Jews and that the Jewish world must learn to work together …"

This was not the first Chavez criticism to come from the Wiesenthal Center. In the spring of 2005, the Center demanded an apology from Chavez for attempting to "banalize the Holocaust" by comparing former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar to Hitler. This is, of course, a ridiculous comparison, but there were no similar demands for apologies from Rick Santorum, Robert Byrd, Martha Stewart, Donald Trump, John Glenn or any other of the dozens of high-profile Hitler comparers from the past couple of years.

Chavez and the Jewish right-wing in Venezuela are tied up in much larger international issues. Here's some more background on this: http://newcentrist.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/venezuelan-jewish-community-center-raided-fidel-castro-on-the-international-zionist-conspiracy/

Venezuela’s Jewish community numbered about 16,000 until Chavez was elected in 1998, and has since declined to around 12,000. The community comprises émigrés who began arriving in the mid-19th century from both North Africa and Eastern Europe, with the majority arriving during and after World War II. Evenly made up of Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews, the community has thrived in the oil-rich country. Benshimol said that it has maintained “good relations with the Venezuelan government since the end of military dictatorship in 1958.”

CAIV’s president also said that the ties continued when Chavez came to power and initially met with CAIV leaders. What has happened since then is a long and complicated story of domestic and international power politics.

One of the first points of tension was the April 2002 coup attempt against Chavez. Michael Penfold-Becerra, a political scientist at Caracas’s institute of superior administrative studies, said that among some government officials, suspicions against Jews were fueled by the alleged support of prominent rabbi Pinchas Brenner for the authors of the short-lived coup, as well as by the perception that Israelis and Jews were active in the arms business.

[lelgt60]

62. Yeah...it's all the Jews fault.

[EFerrari]

73. No, just rightwing guys like Brenner in the article up thread

that tried to get Chavez killed It's definitely their fault. That he's Jewish has nothing to do with it The right wing Catholics hate Chavez, too,

See a pattern here?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

90. Well we aren't officially torturing anyone.

So I guess that makes it okay.

David

[bertman]

64. I can't speak to the attacks on the Jewish community, but isn't it OBVIOUS that Venezuela and Russia

are trying to mirror what Georgia and the United States are doing?? I'm no foreign policy expert, but it seems crystal clear that Russia is saying to us: Okay, you bring your fleet into our sphere of influence to intimidate us and we'll show YOU how it feels.

It's all related to the insanity of the Bush/McAnus foreign policy of Imperial Intimidation worldwide.

We're setting up fake democracies around the perimeter of Russia and trying to get them into NATO so we have Russia at our mercy. Place the Star Wars missile interceptors around the Russians and VOILA there is no country in the world that can militarily stand up to the Empire. Very simple.

And just for the record, I do not think the Russians are "good guys". But we are far worse in our imperial ambitions.

[EFerrari]

75. FYI, there are no "attacks" on the Jewish community.

What happened as far as I can tell is that there were two raids on a building associated with one of the old coup plotters and also one of the new ones. No one was hurt and nothing was destroyed and no one was repressed. This is being reported as anti-Semitism.

This is how the Chavez smears always wind up. They sound horrible, people believe them and pass them on and you find out they're bs by spending some time tracking facts. But, what people remember is the smear. :crazy:

[DemFromMem]

77. Here is more information on the situation for Jews in Venezuela

I know it doesn't fit in to the narrative that many people want to paint of Chavez that he's just sticking it to Bush. The guy is a thug and he's likely to be a problem for Obama as well.

Wikipedia (yes, I know) has a decent summary - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Venezuela . If you dont trust Wikipedia, then click on the links in the citations and you can verify yourself. Most members of the Jewish communities in South America are either apolitical or left wing. I know because I just spent 12 years serving on the board of an international human rights organization that dealt with South America and Venezuela and I also have Jewish relatives in Argentina, Chile and Brazil. Human rights abuses in Venezuela were closely being monitored by our organization.

Accusations of Chávez anti-Semitism

The Simon Wiesenthal Center criticized President Hugo Chávez after he compared Spain's Jose Maria Aznar to Hitler.<25> In late 2005, Rabbi Henri Sobel of Brazil, a World Jewish Congress leader, also accused Chávez of anti-Semitism.<25>

In 2004, after he overcame the referendum on his presidency, Chávez told the opposition not to let themselves "be poisoned by those wandering Jews. Don’t let them lead you to the place they want you to be led. There are some people saying that those 40 percent are all enemies of Chavez." The next day he said on national television that "There are some − every day there are fewer − 'small leaders' who don’t lead anyone, they are more isolated every day, and wander around like the wandering Jew."<7> The Roth Institute says that the Jewish community in Venezuela explains that the phrase 'wandering Jews' "was directed metaphorically at the leaders of the opposition parties" and is a common term in the Catholic world. Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel explained the meaning of the term the next day, and assured Jewish community leaders that it had been used inappropriately.<7> The U.S. State Department also mentioned that "A few days after his electoral victory, President Chavez gave a speech in which he compared the opposition to 'wandering Jews'."<16> Writing in The Weekly Standard, Thor Halvorssen says the United States Department of State's Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor's "Report on Global Anti-Semitism" noted that "Anti-Semitic leaflets also were available to the public in an Interior and Justice Ministry office waiting room."<2>

The Weisenthal Center criticized as anti-Semitic statements made by Chávez during a celebration of Christmas 2005, at a rehabilitation center.<26> Referring to the December 2005 speech, the Miami Herald said, "It's not the first time Chávez has made comments deemed anti-Semitic. In 2005, he attacked 'some minorities, the descendants of the people who crucified Christ, seized the riches of the world'." <27> Chávez stated that "he world is for all of us, then, but it so happens that a minority, the descendants of the same ones that crucified Christ, the descendants of the same ones that kicked Bolívar out of here and also crucified him in their own way over there in Santa Marta, in Colombia. A minority has taken possession all of the wealth of the world."<28>

According to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, Venezuelan government sources, and FAIR, Jewish leaders in Venezuela said the quote omitted the reference to Bolívar, stated that Chávez was referring to Jews, and denounced the remarks as anti-Semitic by way of his allusions to wealth.<29><30> According to an article published at Forward.com, Venezuelan Jewish community leaders accused the Simon Wiesenthal Center of rushing to judgment with the anti-Semitic remarks, saying that Chávez's comments had been taken out of context, and that he was actually referring to "gentile business elites" or the "white oligarchy that has dominated the region since the colonial era".<25>

According to Venezuelanalysis.com, Chávez denied the accusations, saying to the National Assembly, "Anti-liberal I am, anti-imperialist even more so, but anti-Semitic, never, that's a lie. It's part of an imperialist campaign, I am sure." Chávez said he thought the attack was, "an offensive of the empire". He dismissed the accusations of the Simon Wiesenthal Center as propaganda and said he hoped that former Prime Minister Sharon would recover from his stroke.<31> In a nationally televised speech, Chávez accused the Wiesenthal Center of working with Washington. "It's part of the imperialist campaign", Chávez said, according to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency. "It's part of this political battle."<30> The Weisenthal Center's representative in Latin America replied that Chávez's mention of Christ-killers was "ambiguous at best" and that the "decision to criticize Chávez had been taken after careful consideration".<25>

Critics point to Chávez's professional relationship with Norberto Ceresole. Halvorssen says that, "Chavez first ran for president on a reform platform, winning in a landslide. What few understood then was that Chavez planned to revolutionize the country following a plan masterminded by his longtime friend Norberto Ceresole, an Argentinian writer infamous for his books denying the Holocaust and his conspiracy theories about Jewish plans to control the planet." Holocaust denier Ceresole calls the Jews of Venezuela the greatest threat to Chavismo in his Caudillo, Ejército, Pueblo (Leader, Army, People). Chávez denies receiving advice from Ceresole, who was evicted from Venezuela a few months after Chávez reached power; later, Clarin.com said that Jose Vicente Rangel described Ceresole's book as disgusting and despicable.<32>

An article in The Boston Globe discussed a Jewish filmmaker who "fled the country, fearing for his life" in January 2006. According to the article, the hosts of a government television program accused him of being part of a "Zionist conspiracy against Chávez"; the next day, Chávez called for laws to block the production of films that "denigrate our revolution".<33>

Prior to arriving in Iran in July 2006, Chávez met with Libyan leader Muammar al-Gaddafi who presented Chávez Libya's Prize for Human Rights. While in Libya, Chávez said the "time is right to unite and face the imperialist challenge. Like Yasser Arafat, I now have only the revolutionary's gun since the olive branch has fallen." A few days later, while in Iran, Chávez called for a jihad on American imperialism.<2>

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency says that Jews in Venezuela are increasingly fearful of Chávez's vehement criticism of Israel during the war with Hezbollah. They think his rhetoric is "fanning the flames of anti-Semitism", and say that the recent anti-Semitic behavior is not typical for Venezuela. They indicate concern about "the government's incendiary comments about Israel and Jews".<34>

Chávez has been accused of anti-Semitism several times by organizations like the Anti-Defamation League, which wrote to Chávez asking him to consider how his statements might affect Venezuela. The southern area director of the ADL accused Chávez of "distorting history and torturing the truth, as he has done in this case, it is a dangerous exercise which echoes classic anti-Semitic themes".<27>

The president of the Miami-based Independent Venezuelan-American Citizens said "That's what you expect from someone who surrounds himself with the dregs of the world. He seeks out terrorists and dictators. It's predictable that he wouldn't defend a democratic country like Israel." Jewish-Venezuelan community leaders in Caracas told El Nuevo Herald that Chávez's statements have created a situation of "fear and discomfort ... The president is not the president of a single group but of Venezuelan Jews as well."<27>

The Federation of Israeli Associations of Venezuela condemned "attempts to trivialize the Holocaust, the premeditated and systematic extermination of millions of human beings solely because they were Jews ... by comparing it with the current war actions".<27>

[EFerrari]

78. This has already been refuted on this very thread.

And are you really so naive that you believe the "Miami-based Independent Venezuelan-American Citizens" are independent in any way? Wow.

Jews in Venezuela, just like Catholics and other Christians have not been persecuted in the least. That's just crap.

And, just to give you an example, DemFromMem, the person cited in the article you originally posted is ON VIDEO participating in the right wing coup. So, no, Brenner is not neutral or left wing.

If you can find anyone not connected to Brenner or to other coup plotters who accuse Chavez of anti-Semitism, I'll be happy to look into it. As it is, you haven't.

I'm sorry your own narrative is so easy to take apart. That must be disappointing for you.

[EFerrari]

82. Independent Venezuelan American Citizens!

"As Venezuelan citizens, we would like the American people to know that Chavez's opinions and behavior do not reflect the feelings of most Venezuelans, who have always admired and respected the United States. Americans should understand that Hugo Chavez runs an authoritarian regime and is attempting to impose the communist ideas of his friend/thug Castro, disguised as democratic principles. In the upcoming November elections he has prevented many opposition candidates from appearing on the ballot. He has brought frivolous and unsupported lawsuits against potential candidates. He is making a mockery of free democratic elections in a country that strongly opposes dictatorship."

http://www.ivac.org/

LOL! In the South American country that holds monitored free elections on verifiable equipment -- which is more than we have? How does that add up to not the feelings of most Venezuelans? Maybe it actually adds up to resentful right wing business men that can no longer prey on people?

And, doesn't that make them Venezuelan, not Venezuelan-Americans? What a pantload. They can't even be honest about who they are.

Good grief.

[DemFromMem]

87. Oh please

I've personally interviewed interviewed these folks and assisted with political asylum petitions. The only thing disappointing to me is that we have people trying to make excuses for human rights abusers.

I'm a lawyer by profession and handle political asylum petitions as a major part of my work. You can throw insults if you like, but that doesn't make the facts less true.

Funny, but in cases around the world where people of various races, religions, sexual orientations, etc. are persecuted, there are always those who accuse them of making it up or exaggerating or, as you seem to imply, they had it coming.

[EFerrari]

89. Oh, please right back atcha.

The source you give is not credible. I found outright lies in the most cursory search.

You never looked up Mr. Brenner, did you?

I have an excellent bullshit detector and you just failed massively.

[DemFromMem]

93. OK, I guess I'm a big fraud

You got me. I'll call the court and tell them I've perjured myself. Multiple times.

I didn't mention anything about a Brenner. I've never cited to this person in any of my cases and it sounds like you've got something personal going with him.

But I think anyone viewing this thread who really cares about human rights will check this out for themselves rather and won't be deterred by the bullying posts of someone like yourself who wants to shut down a discussion that contradicts the message you're peddling.

I know you're going to reply to this (bullies usually insist on the last word). For others reading this, I simply suggest you ignore sfexpat and do your own research. Google "Venezuela" and "Jews" and you will find a broad array of articles. Judge for yourself.

[Edit: Just a reminder of Forum Rule #3:"Civility: Treat other members with respect. Do not post personal attacks against other members of this discussion forum."

[EFerrari]

97. No, it sounds like you didn't even read the article you yourself posted.

The article you posted said the raids may have been generated because Brenner was associated with that venue. But, I'm sure you read that before you posted it?

Brenner was not "allegedly supportive" of the 2002 coup. He was an active participant. He actually made an appearance at the inauguration of the would-be dictator who replaced Chavez before the people rose up and ended that fiasco.

In other words, being a Jew had nothing to do with it.

And doing your own research would have saved me a lot of trouble -- if reading your own post can be called "research". :)

My advice to anyone who cares about human rights is not to post unvetted smears. How does that sound, counselor?

[EFerrari]

98. Crickets, I thought so. As for your rec to google "Chavez Jews"

let the same folks search "Obama Muslim".

Good grief. I sincerely hope you are just chasing ambulances.

[High Plains]

99. That's pretty thin gruel out of which to cook up an anti-semtitic stew.

[undeterred]

5. Why does he say "clean coal"?

Its a rhetorical question.

[Odin2005]

26. He doesn't want to piss of voters in coal-mining country?

:shrug:

[undeterred]

30. Yeah, I just accept that he is smart

and he knows we (the picky left) know that he's gotta do what he's gotta do to get elected.

[wuushew]

42. In fairness, a lot of coal is in red state territory

I suppose you could make an argument that Pennsylvania should be pandered to, however we all know hell would have to freeze over before Wyoming went for Obama(ditto Utah).


Illinois is in the bag so who cares.


Are Kentucky or West Virginia truly swing states this time around? My gut tells me no.

[lumpy]

6. That bothers me also. I do hope Obama will try to cast aside

some of the old US power doctrines. Maybe some one will ask Obama if he is willing to use diplomatic means to win Venezuela over.

[livelongandprosper]

7. Because Chavez is a major league asshole

in case you missed that. Elections alone do not make a democracy.

[ensho]

10. the rest of the world doesn't think he is a a-hole, just the neo cons

nt

[MikeNearMcChord]

16. Why? Because he opened the country to the poor

and the non-white citizens,to participate in the running of the country? His forcing of the oil companies to pay more so he can provide needed services to the citizens. Sorry pal Chavez and Morales of Bolivia are spearheading a renaissance of Latin America that is no longer the US' plaything nor the apartheid of the White elites, who ran these countries into the ground. Hither thee back to Free Republic.

[lumpy]

19. He isn't as big an asshole as Geo. W. Bush.

He hasn't been the cause of countless human beings needlessly being slaughtered.

[Moochy]

60. Do you like to fish?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. Swaggering "toughness" is chic for politicians.

I wish someone would ask him to explain his definition of the "rogue" status of Venezuela as compared to the USA.

[jonnyblitz]

12. because Obama is the same as the rest of them. you people

who think he is somehow different are TERRIBLY fucking DELUDED. Obama is FOR Wall Street priorities and FOR the neo-liberal agenda of American hegemony/empire. Countries that won't let us go in and exploit their cheap labor and pillage their resources, like Chavez in Venezuela, are the ENEMY to those like Obama and the rest of them. If Obama did not have this point of view he would have been marginalized like Kucinich and never would have gotten as far as he has.

[Odin2005]

18. Oh BS.

If you are stupid enough to call Obama a Neo-Liberal you do not belong on this site. This is DEMOCRATIC Underground, NOT Marxist-Leninist Underground.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

35. who died and made you skinner?

[bvar22]

44. LOL.

:toast:

DU is a site for "Progressives of all stripes" (if I remember correctly).

The Bolivarian Reforms sweeping across South and Central America are more "Progressive" than anything being offered by the Democratic Party today. They are certainly worthy of discussion on DU.

VIVA Democracy!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

46. It's not Christian Underground either. But, a lot of Christians post here.

Nor, is it DLC underground, Neo-lib Underground, Conservative Underground, Moderate Underground, but a lot of posters who are DLC, Neo-libs, Conservatives, or Moderates post here.

[Regret My New Name]

69. Oh great, now I'm gonna end up blowing a couple hundred bucks registering all those domains...

Thanks a lot. :p

[High Plains]

50. Are you confusing neo-liberal and neo-con?

Neo-liberal refers to the free market globalist economic policies of recent years, and I think Obama certainly qualifies.

Read about it here: http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=376

This may not be Marxist-Leninist Underground, but it ain't Joe McCarthy Underground either.

[Odin2005]

81. I know perfectly well what Neo-Liberalism is: Friedmanite "Earth is Flat" free trade BS.

That's not Obama. Obama supports Fair Trade, something Neo-Libs hate because they think anything regulating the international marketplace is a "tariff". Free Trade and Protectionism are not a dichotomy, they are the ends of a spectrum and being too close to either end is damaging to the economy.

[readmoreoften]

65. Gosh I wish it were.

That said. Voting for the smart neo-liberal guy so we don't go down in a flaming pile.

[stillcool]

27. you have no idea how Obama..

would juxtapose the two competing interests that every country has to balance. Business and Social. To suggest that there are some in this country that dare to hope that we can elect someone that can do a better job of creating a more equal balance between these two interests are somehow deluded is terribly fucking condescending.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

28. agreed, obama though our best bet is very far from a socialist or a left wing candidate

he or any of the front runners, including HRC, are very much part of wall street

[earth mom]

105. Yep and that's exactly why some of us are still having trouble supporting Obama.

But McCain/Palin is a scary ass choice, so what to do?

:dilemma:


p.s. I also want to say that I really don't like what Obama said about Venezuela either. :grr:

[riverdeep]

20. That jumped out at me too.

You would think that a nation that invaded another without credible threat and has participated in coups, assassinations of foreign leaders, training of torturers in Latin America and general heavy handedness around the world (us), would be a little less belligerent about labeling inconvenient relationships with countries as being rogue states.

But no one gets elected without making some concessions to certain groups; it's a matter of degree of compromise, not whether or not they are compromised. Oh, and degree does matter.

[Odin2005]

21. Chavez's economic policies are good, his authoritarianism and support for FARC are not. n/t.

And don't forget that the average American's conception of Venezuela has been tainted with "OMG, he's a Commie" MSM BS, so Obama had the play the "tough on the evil Commies" game.

[stillcool]

22. Oil.

[lumpy]

36. Yes, oil. Major US oil interests had control of Venezuela's oil

production for many years. They want it back.

[stillcool]

40. The empire vs. the nation..

Winning for either means the demise of the other.

[dkofos]

31. I hope it's just a smokescreen. I have a feeling things will change

when Obama is Prez.
With Cuba too.

[lumpy]

39. I do hope Obama will take a new stance regarding our

potential friends south of the border. Way past time to get rid of Teddy Roosevelt's policies regarding South America. This is the 21st century.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

91. Why do you'll insist on calling Obama a liar?

[Myrina]

41. Agree w/ you, and it bothers me that he does it too ...

... but what it ultimately comes down to, is that he too is supported (albeit to a lesser extent) by the same multi-national corporate conglom interests that everyone else in DC is.

So he can't stray too far from the farm.

[madrchsod]

43. he forgot venezuela has an oil refinery in chicago

it`s just politics.

[Tutonic]

45. I must have missed this. I thought he referred to Iran and North Korea

as rogue states.

[bertman]

79. You missed it Tutonic. He did say something to the effect of "rogue states like Venezuela." I was

shocked, but I don't know why because he said the same thing, or similar things, several times during the primary debates.

[EFerrari]

83. Yes, that's right. n/t

[Tutonic]

95. Well thats kind of scary for him to say that. He sounds like a darker

version of GW.

[High Plains]

47. The world's leading rogue state is the US. Silly Obama.

You need to be looking in the mirror when you utter that phrase, senator.

[frogmarch]

48. Maybe because

Chavez is not our friend, and also because of this:

Thu Sep 25, 3:27 PM ET

NOVO-OGARYOVO, Russia (AFP) - Russia may launch nuclear energy cooperation with Venezuela, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said Thursday during talks with the country's fiercely anti-US leader Hugo Chavez.

"We are ready to consider a possibility of cooperation in using nuclear energy," Putin said.
Putin also noted "development of our ties in all spheres," with "new possibilities in energy, high-tech, machine construction and chemicals."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080925/wl_afp/russiavenezueladiplomacynuclear_080925192759

[EFerrari]

51. Chavez is not BushCo's friend. That's a different matter. n/t

[High Plains]

100. Does having nuclear energy make you a rogue state?

I've long been suspicious about those French...

[fascisthunter]

49. Because He is Parroting What the Media and Neocons in the Media Have Established

sad, isn't it? I will be writing his campaign regarding this BS.

[dgibby]

58. Same as what he said about Russia

I almost fell out of my chair when he referred to Russian "aggression" in Georgia. Why would he say that? Very troubling and disappointing.:shrug:

[Odin2005]

86. Because Obama is right?

Whatever BS Georgia pulled in South Ossetia (the extent of which I don't think we'll ever know because of propaganda on both sides) in no way justified Russia Invading Georgia proper. Russia was simply looking for an excuse to bully it's neighbors and make them vassals again, I'm sure Putin doesn't give a damn about the ethnic grievances 70,000 Ossetians.

[redqueen]

55. Which politicians *don't* follow the CIA script on Venezuela? (nt)

[Moochy]

61. Agreed, it's part of neo(lib/con) bonafides to bash Chavez

[EFerrari]

92. The Heritage Foundation's action plan.

I've found all kinds of stuff over there that goes right into our press. CIA must be pissed! :wow:

Obama probably feels he has to do this. I hope there's some wiggle room and I hope that's not what his administration will look like come January.

[leftofthedial]

57. run to the right.

don't let mcsame win ALL the mouth breathers.

[Nevernose]

63. He wants to get elected?

And he's pragmatic enough to talk shit about Chavez now when it really doesn't matter, then sit down with Hugo a year from now and apologize for that whole "coup" thing?

[bertman]

80. There won't even be a need for an apology, except as a matter of diplomatic politesse. Chavez knows

the score. He's a smart guy. Smart enough to still be alive after telling the Big Oil boys that Venezuela was going to get the BIG CHUNK of oil revenues instead of the other way around, as it had been for years. That's the biggest reason for all the anti-Chavez propaganda. If he hadn't started treating Venezuelans like real human being citizens he would be another fine "friend" of America, feeding at the trough and getting huge military appropriations to keep the slaves under control. I mean workers.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. It makes perfect sense for Chavez to buddy up to the Russians

Think about it. If the biggest bruiser in your neighborhood (in this case, the U.S.) is constantly threatening you and has actually tried to sabotage you, you might want to find a big bruiser of your own (i.e. the Russians) to dissuade your local big bruiser from attacking.

This is like what happens when China makes threatening noises about Taiwan. The U.S. Navy then decides that it's time to send a couple of vessels to the Formosa Straits and South China Sea.

[tjwash]

68. The same reason that he wants to "expand the war on terror to Afghanistan"?

:shrug:

[bvar22]

70. Yeah.

That bit of warmongering didn't exactly have me standing up and cheering either.

Never-the-Less, it is critically important that we get him elected....
THEN, the real work begins.

[tjwash]

72. Oh good...it's not just me then.

I brought that up the day after his speech at the convention. Mentioned his speech and part about the escalation of the war in the middle east, and how he openly promised more aggression as the crowed cheered his line about preparing for "future conflicts." The kicker was the bearded youth sporting a peace sign applauding Obama's martial rhetoric.

I got barbecued here after that. Sometimes people just don't get that you can be for a candidate, but recognize and be vocal about what needs to be changed and worked on. Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of so-called dems here that are chomping at the bit to show that they too can cheer cluster-bombings, and massive body counts, as well as patriot bait people that are not in lock step with them with the best repug.

[Odin2005]

88. Uh, maybe if we had concentrated on Afganistan instead if going on *'s Iraq adventure...

...Afganistan would be stabilized and we would have Bin Laden's head on a pike.

[moodforaday]

71. As one DUer replied to me

when I posed a similar question: because he's trying to appeal to the center.

And I have no answer to this, because:

a) if that is indeed the case, it is apparently OK to lie and/or distort facts and/or threaten war in order to win the election. "We've met the enemy and he is us".

b) Does "the center" wants to nuke Venezuela (and Pakistan, and erase Afghanistan while we're at it)? This is an important question, because if it is NOT true, and if "the center" doesn't really think it would be a righteous thing to do, then a candidate would be making a potentially fatal miscalculation.

c) If, on the other hand, this is indeed what "the center" wants, and a presidential candidate is willing to give, then may God come into existence and help us all.

There's just nowhere to go with this.

[bertman]

84. "Then may God come into existence and help us all." I LOVE that one. You're right about the center,

of course. It's just a construct of the DLC and the New Democrats to keep us in line with the corporatist agenda.

I think our only hope is that Obama gets a huge landslide victory and lots of progressive Dems come in on his coattails. That would signal a new awareness of the citizenry that they can actually participate in this alleged participatory democracy thingie. And, if Obama is not just a supersmart, superambitious politician, he could be the new Teddy Roosevelt or FDR and actually get something done.

The web has changed the game in a big way. That's why they're trying to limit the content and allow a few companies to control the "internets".

I have a friend at work who is a very strong Dem but who has dial-up and no major cable access. All she gets is corporate media propaganda, yet she still sees through it. (Plus I hope I help some in the education process). But now, after the FISA debacle, and the Iraq War debacle, and NO IMPEACHMENT, she is absorbing the news I bring her--from DU, HuffPo, Kos, Firedog, etc--and she's even spending more time trying to enlighten herself. Two years ago she was buying the propaganda even when she could smell the stench.

We can't give up when Obama wins. There will be Senatorial and House elections to throw out more of the Blue Dogs and the New Dems.

Meanwhile, the Empire must be maintained even as we shrink it and its horrorific effect on the rest of the planet. I say must be maintained because we can't exist without it and we have to wean ourselves off the tit. That doesn't mean that we can't change it to a much more humanitarian, egalitarian Empire as we whittle it down.

[bemildred]

74. Empty political talk doesn't mean much.

The principle is that one ought not pick fights unless the outcome makes a difference. Unless Obama is elected, his opinion means nothing, and his opinion about Venezuela means nothing as far as gettng elected, so what you will hear is whatever is least controversial.

[roody]

76. Because Obama wants to be a member of the ruling

elite.

[EFerrari]

94. Fwiw, I have not recommended this thread (unless I'm having a senior moment and forgot.)

I was really disappointed in Obama launching his outreach to Latinos by going to Miami and pandering to an anti-Castro group that is responsible for violence against people who disagree with him both in Miami and in Cuba. That was actually sort of scary and I wrote about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2917457

Chavez is someone we don't even know here, just like we don't know Castro, just like most voters don't know John Kerry or like most people don't know Bruce Ivins who is being framed in the anthrax case by BushCo. We are propagandized really well. The same people who say Obama is the most liberal member of the Senate (as if that was a bad thing) propagate the lie that Chavez funds terrorists. It's the same guys.

I want Obama to just go for it, I need him to win. And at the same time, I know what he's saying is wrong and I'm hoping he will balance out his views when he's in power. That's not a bet I'd be willing to make, normally, but there it is.

[eomer]

107. The Cuban Amercian National Foundation is opposed to violent means.

They also disagree with many of the hardline policies on Cuba that Bush and McCain pander to. Here's an article about the Obama visit (I assume this is the visit you're referring to), where you can see some examples of how they disagree with the hardline approaches:

Obama's speech offered a sharp contrast to the remarks delivered just four days ago by McCain in Miami. McCain's stay-the-course message was warmly received, but CANF president Pepe Hernandez said he was disappointed.

"We love Senator McCain and we have been friends with him for a very long period of time, but we think at this juncture of history of the Cuban process we need to try new approaches and new methods," he said. "There was nothing in his speech that we have not heard before."

Obama criticized the presumptive Republican presidential nominee Friday, saying McCain had joined the "parade of politicians who make the same empty promises year after year, decade after decade."

McCain's campaign fired back. "By changing his position in front of Cuban-Americans to support the embargo that he used to oppose, Barack Obama is engaging in the same political expediency that he railed against in his speech,&quit; McCain spokesman Tucker Bound said in a written statement.

Trying to deflect criticism that his administration's hard-line position separates families, President Bush announced earlier this week that Cuban-Americans would be able to send cell phones to their families in Cuba.

Hernandez said that is already common practice and called Bush's announcement "ridiculous".

The foundation favors relaxing the administration's rules that limit Cuban-Americans to visiting family on the island only once every three years.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/104/story/38290.html

Pepe Hernandez has been President of CANF for many years. He has one bumper sticker on his car; guess what it is. A "Joe Garcia for Congress" sticker. Joe Garcia is our Democratic Party candidate running against Mario Diaz-Balart. My wife and I have met Joe and he is a bona fide Democrat. He is also quite anti-Castro.

Here is more information about CANF (from their website) that shows more examples of how they disagree with some of the hardline approaches and disagree with violent means:

What does CANF do?

CANF conducts and supports numerous and diverse activities, programs and initiatives to advance human rights in Cuba, educate public opinion on the plight of the Cuban people, dispel prejudice and intolerance against Cubans in exile and promote Cuban culture and creative achievements.

Regular contact with independent groups and journalists and opposition figures as well as extensive information gathering and analysis allow CANF to offer an updated and comprehensive view of the situation in Cuba. Likewise, CANF provides a window to the outside world for Cubans on the island deprived of objective information and ideas from abroad. In addition to having our own radio station, La Voz de la Fundación, for transmissions to the island, we led the effort to establish the U.S. Information Agency's Radio Martí (1985) and TV Martí (1990), the official U.S. broadcasting operations of uncensored and unbiased news and programming for the Cuban people.

CANF assists non-violent pro-democracy activists on the island and provides a voice for the victims of oppression in Cuba by informing public opinion - particularly governments and human rights organizations - on the systematic violation of human rights in Cuba.

We have taken the cause for a free Cuba to the halls of power worldwide. As the foremost Cuban exile organization in the United States, CANF delivers an organized and powerful Cuban-American voice in Washington. For two decades CANF has worked tirelessly to forge a broad bipartisan consensus on U.S. policy toward Cuba and has built bridges of close communication with the executive and legislative branches. Our influence extends internationally, where we raise awareness of Cuba's plight with world leaders and in capitals around the globe.

http://canf1.org/artman/publish/about_us/About_The_CANF.shtml

The Cuban exile too has an important role to play. It is because we recognize the importance of this that we believe increasing, not further restricting, family communication and visits to Cuba are essential to moving events on-island. Cuban American family members can act as ambassadors of change, taking much needed assistance, but more importantly, helping to transmit that message of hope and support, as well as dispel the regime’s propaganda intended to further divide the Cuban family and create fear of change. It is evident by the regime’s actions to restrict access to Cuba, particularly by international media outlets, that it seeks to carefully select what the world is privy to. This is precisely why, a liberalization of Cuban American travel is also crucial to learning more about the internal situation and helping to further destabilize the regime’s hold on power.

http://canf1.org/artman/publish/analysis_on_cuba/Summary_CANF_Policy_Recommendations_in_a_post-Fidel_Castro_era.shtml

There are people in CANF who are either Democrats or else ripe candidates to become Democrats. The only thing I'm aware of that would keeping anyone here from being a natural ally of CANF would be that any DUers who are pro-Castro will naturally have a very basic disagreement with them. Are you pro-Castro or anti-Castro?

My attitude toward Castro is that throwing people in prison for their political views is anti-democratic, no matter whether the regime doing it is "left wing" or "right wing", and I used quotes because I don't believe the Castros are actually left wing; they are dictators just using that label as a cover story. Do you disagree that the Castro regime has always thrown people in prison who disagree with him or do you agree with me that they have but think that it is justified somehow?

I'm also interested in more detail from you about CANF being responsible for violence against people who disagree with them. Do you have specifics? Links?

[EFerrari]

108. Luis Posada Carriles, for example?

Luis Posada Carriles

It has been alleged that CANF is connected to terrorist acts against Cuban businesses, government and ordinary citizens. Luis Posada Carriles admitted in a 1998 New York Times interview that he received financial backing from CANF for a 1997 bombing campaign in Cuba.<1> CANF has strongly denied Posada's statement. Posada, however, describes long term relationships with CANF figures in his autobiography. Declassified CIA and FBI documents allege that Posada was one of the "engineer" of the 1976 terrorist bombing of Cubana Airlines flight 455 that killed 73 passengers.<3> The administration of President George W. Bush refused to extradite Posada to Venezuela, where he is wanted for this crime.

The Cuban Ministry of the Interior claimed <4> that the three September 4, 1997 bomb attacks against three hotels in Havana, which killed one person <5>, were planned and controlled by CANF. CANF has denied the allegations. <6> However, a former board member of the group has stated that several of its leaders planned attacks in Cuba during the 1990s. <7>. In 1997, the CANF published a statement supporting un-conditionally all terrorist attacks against Cuba; the CANF chairman at the time stated that "We do not think of these as terrorist actions".<8>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_American_National_Foundation

It's a mafia, basically. And it looks like its leaders die like criminals, too:

Cuban-American exile figure gunned down
July 30, 2008

SAN JUAN, Puerto RicoBOSTON - Authorities say a former official with a Cuban-American exile group was shot dead in a Puerto Rican suburb.

Police say Emiliano Infante Segrera, 64, was killed Monday outside a San Juan store by a gunman inside a car. He was a longtime trustee of the Miami-based Cuban American National Foundation.

Police Lt. Luis Diaz told the newspaper El Nuevo Dia that Infante appeared to be shot by an expert marksman.

Francisco Hernandez, the foundation's president and co-founder, said Tuesday that Infante devoted his life to promote democracy on the communist nation.

http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cache:K9IMX4KJIrYJ:www.sun-sentinel.com/news/nationworld/sfl-flnatdig07300sbjul30,0,4345172.story+infante+segrera&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=28&gl=us

That's the official version in the Sun Sentinel -- a cached copy, the story was scrubbed. Here's another version:

Former leader of anti-Castro group shot dead in Puerto Rico
Published on Saturday, August 2, 2008
HAVANA, Cuba (ACN): An ex leader of the anti-Castro Miami-based Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF), Emiliano Infante Segrera, was shot dead in Puerto Rico.

According to a note published on Friday by Granma news daily, the Puerto Rican police continue to investigate the circumstances in which the shooting took place.

Infante Segrera, a 64-year old Cuban-American, was one of the leaders of the CANF, created by the CIA and which supported criminal actions against the Communist regime in Cuba organized by international and self-confessed terrorist Luis Posada Carriles.

According to police experts, the murder of Infante Segrera looks like a settling of scores.

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/article.php?news_id=9546

[iandhr]

96. here it comes

The Chavez fan club. Chavez is a dictator plan and simple. He tried to amended his Constitution to eliminate teams limits so he could run for president for the rest of his life. He stifles all sounds of descent and if you have the courage to stand up to him your business becomes nationalized. Now Russia is in a arms deal with Venezuela. I have also herd in the past the Chavez support FARC. Also it would be political suicide if he did not

[High Plains]

101. Get back under your bridge with that right-wing bullshit.

Did you have to buy a condo in Miami to escape the oppression?

[bvar22]

103. The US didn't have term limits until 1951. (22nd Amendment)

We seem to have done OK.

If term limits hadn't been pushed by the Hard Right Wing in response to Roosevelt's 3rd Term, we wouldn't have them today.

As long as someone is running in open, transparent, fair elections.... why not?

Chavez attempted to amend the Constitution. This is an open, legal, and constitutional process. The Venezuelan people voted NO. Case closed.

Unlike in the US where Bush rules by Executive Decree and circumvents our Constitution entirely,
but Impeachment is "Off the Table".


This is laughable:
You said (quote):
"He stifles all sounds of descent"(sic).

That is just completely untrue.
There have been many large anti-Chavez demonstrations in Caracas.
The proposed constitutional amendment you mentioned above was voted down.
I don't believe those people have been rounded up and shot yet.

Welcome to DU.
You are entitled to your opinion.
You are NOT entitled to invent your own facts.

[inna]

104. GREAT thread, thanks!

this is one of the most interesting and informative threads i have EVER read on DU.

great comments from several people. thanks guys!

[countryjake]

106. It comes with the job-description...

it is de rigueur for representatives of our capitalist nation to condemn any and all countries who will not willingly cede their resources, invest heavily in a worthless fantasy dollar, and bow down to those vital "interests" of the USA. That Venezuela represents "competition" to American Imperialism automatically puts them on our esteemed politicians' shit-list.