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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:38 AM
Original message
Kurt Vonnegut / The bombing of Dresden Germany during World War II
The author Kurt Vonnegut was a prisoner of war in Dresden during the allied bombing raids and was later forced to dig out bodies from the ruined city.

In papers discovered by his son after his death last year, he provides a searing eyewitness account of the ‘obscene brutality’ that inspired his novel Slaughterhouse-Five


The blood of Dresden Germany





It was a routine speech we got during our first day of basic training, delivered by a wiry little lieutenant:

“Men, up to now you’ve been good, clean, American boys with an American’s love for sportsmanship and fair play. We’re here to change that.

“Our job is to make you the meanest, dirtiest bunch of scrappers in the history of the world. From now on, you can forget the Marquess of Queensberry rules and every other set of rules. Anything and everything goes.

“Never hit a man above the belt when you can kick him below it. Make the bastard scream. Kill him any way you can. Kill, kill, kill – do you understand?”

His talk was greeted with nervous laughter and general agreement that he was right. “Didn’t Hitler and Tojo say the Americans were a bunch of softies? Ha! They’ll find out.”

And of course, Germany and Japan did find out: a toughened-up democracy poured forth a scalding fury that could not be stopped.




It was a war of reason against barbarism, supposedly, with the issues at stake on such a high plane that most of our feverish fighters had no idea why they were fighting – other than that the enemy was a bunch of bastards. A new kind of war, with all destruction, all killing approved.

, three small-town merchants’ wives, middle-aged and plump, gave me a ride when I was hitchhiking home from Camp Atterbury. “Did you kill a lot of them Germans?” asked the driver, making cheerful small-talk. I told her I didn’t know.

This was taken for modesty. As I was getting out of the car, one of the ladies patted me on the shoulder in motherly fashion: “I’ll bet you’d like to get over and kill some of them dirty Japs now, wouldn’t you?”

(snip)

There was no war in Dresden.

True, planes came over nearly every day and the sirens wailed, but the planes were always en route elsewhere. The alarms furnished a relief period in a tedious work day, a social event, a chance to gossip in the shelters.

The shelters, in fact, were not much more than a gesture, casual recognition of the national emergency: wine cellars and basements with benches in them and sandbags blocking the windows, for the most part.

There were a few more adequate bunkers in the centre of the city, close to the government offices, but nothing like the staunch subterranean fortress that rendered Berlin impervious to her daily pounding. Dresden had no reason to prepare for attack – and thereby hangs a beastly tale.

Dresden was surely among the world’s most lovely cities.

Her streets were broad, lined with shade-trees.

She was sprinkled with countless little parks and statuary.

She had marvellous old churches, libraries, museums, theatres, art galleries, beer gardens, a zoo and a renowned university.

It was at one time a tourist’s paradise. They would be far better informed on the city’s delights than am I. But the impression I have is that in Dresden – in the physical city – were the symbols of the good life; pleasant, honest, intelligent. In the swastika’s shadow, those symbols of the dignity and hope of mankind stood waiting, monuments to truth. The accumulated treasure of hundreds of years, Dresden spoke eloquently of those things excellent in European civilisa-tion wherein our debt lies deep.

I was a prisoner, hungry, dirty and full of hate for our captors, but I loved that city and saw the blessed wonder of her past and the rich promise of her future.

In February 1945, American bombers reduced this treasure to crushed stone and embers; disembowelled her with high explosives and cremated her with incendiaries.

(snip)

The night they came over, we spent in an underground meat locker in a slaughterhouse. We were lucky, for it was the best shelter in town. Giants stalked the earth above us. First came the soft murmur of their dancing on the outskirts, then the grumbling of their plodding towards us, and finally the ear-splitting crashes of their heels upon us – and thence to the outskirts again. Back and forth they swept: saturation bombing.

“I screamed and I wept and I clawed the walls of our shelter,” an old lady told me. “I prayed to God to ‘please, please, please, dear God, stop them’.

But he didn’t hear me. No power could stop them. On they came, wave after wave.

There was no way we could surrender; no way to tell them we couldn’t stand it any more. There was nothing anyone could do but sit and wait for morning.” Her daughter and grandson were killed.

Our little prison was burnt to the ground. We were to be evacuated to an outlying camp occupied by South African prisoners.

Our guards were a melancholy lot, aged Volkssturmers and disabled veterans. Most of them were Dresden residents and had friends and families somewhere in the holocaust. A corporal, who had lost an eye after two years on the Russian front, ascertained before we marched that his wife, his two children and both of his parents had been killed. He had one cigarette. He shared it with me.

Our march to new quarters took us to the city’s edge. It was impossible to believe that anyone had survived in its heart. Ordinarily, the day would have been cold, but occasional gusts from the colossal inferno made us sweat. And ordinarily, the day would have been clear and bright, but an opaque and towering cloud turned noon to twilight.

A grim procession clogged the outbound highways; people with blackened faces streaked with tears, some bearing wounded, some bearing dead. They gathered in the fields. No one spoke. A few with Red Cross armbands did what they could for the casualties.

Settled with the South Africans, we enjoyed a week without work. At the end of it, communications were reestablished with higher headquarters and we were ordered to hike seven miles to the area hardest hit.

Nothing in the district had escaped the fury. A city of jagged building shells, of splintered statuary and shattered trees; every vehicle stopped, gnarled and burnt, left to rust or rot in the path of the frenzied might. The only sounds other than our own were those of falling plaster and their echoes.

(snip)

We cut our way through a basement wall to discover a reeking hash of over 100 human beings. Flame must have swept through before the building’s collapse sealed the exits, because the flesh of those within resembled the texture of prunes.

Our job, it was explained, was to wade into the shambles and bring forth the remains. Encouraged by cuffing and guttural abuse, wade in we did.

We did exactly that, for the floor was covered with an unsavoury broth from burst water mains and viscera.

A number of victims, not killed outright, had attempted to escape through a narrow emergency exit. At any rate, there were several bodies packed tightly into the passageway. Their leader had made it halfway up the steps before he was buried up to his neck in falling brick and plaster.

He was about 15, I think.

It is with some regret that I here besmirch the nobility of our airmen, but, boys, you killed an appalling lot of women and children. The shelter I have described and innumerable others like it were filled with them. We had to exhume their bodies and carry them to mass funeral pyres in the parks, so I know.

The funeral pyre technique was abandoned when it became apparent how great was the toll. There was not enough labour to do it nicely, so a man with a flamethrower was sent down instead, and he cremated them where they lay. Burnt alive, suffocated, crushed – men, women, and children indiscriminately killed.

For all the sublimity of the cause for which we fought, we surely created a Belsen of our own. The method was impersonal, but the result was equally cruel and heartless. That, I am afraid, is a sickening truth.

When we had become used to the darkness, the odour and the carnage, we began musing as to what each of the corpses had been in life. It was a sordid game: “Rich man, poor man, beggar man, thief . . .” Some had fat purses and jewellery, others had precious foodstuffs. A boy had his dog still leashed to him.



Renegade Ukrainians in German uniform were in charge of our operations in the shelters proper. They were roaring drunk from adjacent wine cellars and seemed to enjoy their job hugely.

It was a profitable one, for they stripped each body of valuables before we carried it to the street. Death became so commonplace that we could joke about our dismal burdens and cast them about like so much garbage.

Not so with the first of them, especially the young: we had lifted them on to the stretchers with care, laying them out with some semblance of funeral dignity in their last resting place before the pyre. But our awed and sorrowful propriety gave way, as I said, to rank callousness. At the end of a grisly day, we would smoke and survey the impressive heap of dead accumulated. One of us flipped his cigarette butt into the pile: “Hell’s bells,” he said, “I’m ready for Death any time he wants to come after me.”

A few days after the raid, the sirens screamed again. The listless and heartsick survivors were showered this time with leaflets. I lost my copy of the epic, but remember that it ran something like this: “To the people of Dresden: we were forced to bomb your city because of the heavy military traffic your railroad facilities have been carrying. We realise that we haven’t always hit our objectives. Destruction of anything other than military objectives was unintentional, unavoidable fortunes of war.”

That explained the slaughter to everyone’s satisfaction, I am sure, but it aroused no little contempt. It is a fact that 48 hours after the last B-17 had droned west for a well-earned rest, labour battalions had swarmed over the damaged rail yards and restored them to nearly normal service. None of the rail bridges over the Elbe was knocked out of commission. Bomb-sight manufacturers should blush to know that their marvellous devices laid bombs down as much as three miles wide of what the military claimed to be aiming for.

The leaflet should have said: “We hit every blessed church, hospital, school, museum, theatre, your university, the zoo, and every apartment building in town, but we honestly weren’t trying hard to do it. C’est la guerre. So sorry. Besides, saturation bombing is all the rage these days, you know.”

(snip)

More at:

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_an...
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
1. Your link is broken...
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thank you redqueen***much appreciated.
n/t
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
39. thanks for this link
:kick:
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. wow
we knew he went through a hell that changed his life forever, but this really puts it home.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
3. All war is carnage and any advocate of war, like McBush, advocates carnage.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
5. Shakes head
Evil - humanity is capable of horrendous evil.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
6. war is ALWAYS a nightmarish view of man's inhumanity and brutality
But it is important to keep in mind who unleashes any given war. In this case, it was indisputably Germany under Hitler. Just as in Iraq, it was the U.S.

And as far as I'm concerned, anything coming from you on this subject is highly suspect. Last time you posted something about this, it was from a white supremecist anti-semitic site. Not the first time you've done it, either. That thread was locked. At least you found a better source and a better site.

Few would argue that Dresden was defensible. However, had Hitler not waged an agressive war, it wouldn't have happened.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. what?
these are the words of Kurt Vonnegut.
He was THERE!
He is a real person, in fact my father knew him.


a completely legitimate story..
why are using this post to attack the poster?


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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. uh. of course it's a completely legitimate story. Furthermore, it's
extremely vivid and moving. I certainly did NOT say otherwise. Oh, and why would I possibly care that your father knew Vonnegut? What has that got to do with anything?

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. a cynical answer
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 11:35 AM by G_j
because you seemed to want to put in question the voracity of the post.

of course you must realize that Vonnegut is a real person, but you never know..
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Not at all cynical. And I suggest you try reading for comprehension
Nothing in my first post hinted at any of the crap you're accusing me of or insinuating. I pointed out that what the U.S did to Dresden was indefensible. I suggested that it was hardly exceptional when it comes to war. Such behavior is intrinsic to war.

And sorry, I've read most of Vonnegut's work. I admire quite a bit of it. And I made clear in my first post that the source was a good one.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
18. =
And as far" as I'm concerned, anything coming from you on this subject is highly suspect."

this is what prompted my original question.

EOM
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. "as far as I'm concerned, anything coming from you on this subject is highly suspect."
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. Agree. They wanted war, and got it. Tough.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 11:48 AM by closeupready
And also interesting that back then, Dems wanted to get involved long before the pukes. Now we have people here saying, "oh, why did we have to get involved in all that??" :mad:
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. actually, that's not what I was saying. I don't in any way share
the "tough for them" sentiment. Those were innocent people horrifically killed. It's grotesque to me to do anything but mourn that as the tragedy it was. I was simply pointing out the obvious: What happened to Dresden was brutal. It was wrong on the part of the American forces- and it was set into motion by Hitler.
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Oh, I see. I don't mean, tough that the innocents died, no. Obviously, children can never
be guilty in the way that soldiers are, and also the loss of so much in Dresden is very sad. On the other hand, years ago, I read an account of an aristocratic Dresden woman who also survived the bombing (she spent years afterward searching for her family and daughter), and she did not blame the Allies - she blamed Hitler and men drunk on power who think war is so much fun but that it's always the women and children who pay worst of all, and also became an anti-war activist. (Gosh I forget the name of that book, but it was memorable.)

Peace. :hi:
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. I am sick at heart to read this
By your logic, any sort of horror, cruelty or carnage could be justified. In fact - your argument is exactly how cruelty and carnage is always justified - "they started it." No one ever defends brutality by saying "I support brutality." No, they say exactly the sort of things you are saying here.

And of what possible relevance could your interpretation of the poster's previous behavior have to the content of the OP?

You don't even have the courage to defend what you said, and immediately start back pedaling and denying what you said and attacking anyone who challenges you.

I don't think I have ever seen a series of posts here that sickens me the way that your posts on this thread do. There is absolutely no excuse whatsoever for what you are doing.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. what a grotesque and dishonest interpretation of what I wrote. Disgusting.
I made it absolutely fucking crystal clear that I justified and defended nothing about the bombing of Dresden. I'm sorry that the obvious is so difficult for you to grasp. I back pedaled not at all. YOU have a problem with me and disguise it with dishonest crap.

Believe me, your faux disgust with my posts, is nothing compared to what I feel about yours.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. your words
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 07:18 PM by Two Americas
"war is ALWAYS a nightmarish view of man's inhumanity and brutality. But it is important to keep in mind who unleashes any given war. In this case, it was indisputably Germany under Hitler."

"Few would argue that Dresden was defensible. However, had Hitler not waged an aggressive war, it wouldn't have happened."

I am objecting to what you said right there, not to something I imagined you to say.

Why would anyone respond to the OP with "it is important to keep in mind" that Hitler was at fault? Are we to now believe that you thought there was someone here unaware of that? That it was an accident that you said that? That your comment was not intended to be germane to the issue of the bombing of Dresden - a mitigating factor, an "on the other hand" sentiment?

It could be that in your zeal to hurt the OP, you misspoke. That would be forgivable. You are so angry at the OP - you post often in anger toward other members - that you grabbed for anything to hurt the OP without thinking.
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roody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. Who is "they"? "They" wanted war.
The dead in Dresden?
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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. "They" is the Nazis. They wanted "total war". They killed millions to provoke it.
And would have continued killing many millions more if they had succeeded. Do you know what their plans were? They were going to enslave whole ethnicities.

Obviously, many people in Dresden didn't deserve to die.

But the people in Coventry didn't deserve to die either. It was not a militarily important city in England, and the Nazis bombed it simply to demoralize the English into submission.
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JustAnotherGen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. cali
I'm not familiar with the o.p.'s history - but must agree with your last sentence.

In general - Dresden was a 'hub' for trains with one way tickets. Pulling out some books I own on this subject to check the date. . .


March 3 1943 300 jews received their one way ticket from Hellerberg camp via the Dresden-Neustadt station. Though all from the general Saxony area - many were from Dresden. Only 8 returned - from Auschwitz.

Needless to say - let me reiterate - I agree with the last sentence of your post.

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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. "Churchill did not think well of area bombing..."
"Churchill did not think well of area bombing but began to believe it could be a grim necessity after (1) he watched devastating German air attacks on Warsaw, Rotterdam, and other places full of noncombatants; and (2) he could see precious few ideas for hitting back. In the ever lengthening build-up to Normandy, the bomber offensive was about the best he had to hurt the Germans and their industrial war effort. Later, when he saw France liberated, Germany's defensive lines being pierced, and the war being won, he quickly lost taste for it.

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=106


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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Churchill didn't really have a choice but to use it in '41 and '42
Dresden, on the other hand, is controversial because it happened in 1945 when it was clear that the allies had already won.
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pokerfan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. I agree that it remains controversial
They also thought that they had clearly won a few months earlier, failing to anticipate a massive German offensive in the Ardennes.

Historians have the benefit of hindsight.

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JohnyCanuck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
40. If you really want to get into who started what and when........
Prescott Bush (The Dim Son's grandpa) and other prominent US financiers played a leading role in assisting Hitler's rise to power by laundering his regime's Nazi funds for him and ensuring German industries and military machinery had access to up to date technology. So I guess one could also say if there had been no fascist enablers and sympathizers in the freedom loving USA maybe the Dresden fire bombing would never have happened.


BUSH-NAZI LINK CONFIRMED


Documents in National Archives Prove George W. Bush's
Grandfather Traded with Nazis - Even After Pearl Harbor


by John Buchanan (Exclusive to the New Hampshire Gazette)


WASHINGTON - After 60 years of inattention and even denial
by the U.S. media, newly-uncovered government documents in
The National Archives and Library of Congress reveal that
Prescott Bush, the grandfather of President George W. Bush,
served as a business partner of and U.S. banking operative
for the financial architect of the Nazi war machine from 1926
until 1942, when Congress took aggressive action against Bush
and his "enemy national" partners.

The documents also show that Bush and his colleagues, according
to reports from the U.S. Department of the Treasury, tried to
conceal their financial alliance with German industrialist Fritz
Thyssen, a steel and coal baron who, beginning in the mid-1920s,
personally funded Adolf Hitler's rise to power by the subversion
of democratic principle and German law.

Furthermore, the declassified records demonstrate that Bush
and his associates, who included E. Roland Harriman, younger
brother of American icon W. Averell Harriman, and George
Herbert Walker, President Bush's maternal great-grandfather,
continued their dealings with the German industrial tycoon for
nearly a year after the U.S. entered the war.

No Story?
For six decades these historical facts have gone unreported
by the mainstream U.S. media. The essential facts have
appeared on the Internet and in relatively obscure books, but
were dismissed by the media and Bush family as undocumented
diatribes. This story has also escaped the attention of "official"
Bush biographers, Presidential historians and publishers of U.S.
history books covering World War II and its aftermath.

http://www.geocities.com/bushfamilynazis/

Youtube video of investigative journalist John Buchanan explaining how material he found in the National Archives provides evidence of Bush family and Nazi sympathizers in the US offering financial support to Hitler's Nazi regime.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnAUQeHykXY
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ihavenobias Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. K & R, thanks for that. Also, here are some more good links on Vonnegut...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3105363

I posted this a while ago, and it includes an interview with his son Mark.
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smiley_glad_hands Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. Vonnegut's work inspired me to read when I was young. RIP eom
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 11:29 AM by smiley_glad_hands
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
29. same here
Fire bombing of Tokyo was also an act of terrorism, prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki
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codjh9 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'm surprised you didn't say that's all in the essay collection compiled by his son Mark,
'Armageddon in Retrospect'. Everything in it (if I remember right) is war-related. Good - as usual - for Vonnegut. I can't recommend 'Man Without a Country' enough either.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
16. Thanks
I've always loved Vonnegut - I might have to get this book.

My grandfather's father was from Dresden. Moved to the US as a child around the turn of the century. Makes looking up genealogical information on his family nearly impossible.

I've read some of Vonnegut's writings about Dresden before, but this book sounds like a must read.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 03:29 PM
Response to Original message
19. Slaughterhouse-Five changed my life.
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 03:31 PM by intheflow
That one book probably set me on my anti-war activist path more than any other I've read. Vonnegut was always, always haunted by Dresden. I believe he carried the scar of that experience to his grave. Like his protagonist, Billy Pilgrim, Dresden made Vonnegut become unstuck in time. This is an anguished description of the Dresden bombing, even more damning, imo, than Slaughterhouse-Five because there is nothing fictional in this account. It's interesting to me that Vonnegut was spared during the bombing when so many perished--was it so he could bear witness to the world of a massacre when no one was supposed to live to tell the tale? I hope so, because I want there to be some meaning from this chaos.

It is so short and jumbled and jangled, Sam, because there is nothing intelligent to say about a massacre. Everybody is supposed to be dead, to never say anything or want anything ever again. Everything is supposed to be very quiet after a massacre, and it always is, except for the birds.

And what do the birds say? All there is to say about a massacre, things like "Poo-tee-weet?"



-- Slaughterhouse-Five, or The Children's Crusade, by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.


Rest in peace, Brother Vonnegut.
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. Thank you INT, and everyone else for posting.
History is primarily written by the victors, and that is why personal accounts are so important.

They help to reveal a more honest account of events.
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Beausoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you. n/t
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Gwendolyn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
24. Good thread!
Edited on Sat Sep-27-08 07:40 PM by Gwendolyn
Every time republicans, and righties in general, rail against the "socialism" and "pussiness" pervading Europe these days it makes me wish they would look back into the annals of history. Europeans were devastasted by the two World Wars and have come out of it with a slightly better sense of morality, or humility maybe. A walk through any large European city and you're immersed in the reminders of all the carnage... the endless monuments and plaques honoring the dead. We in the West haven't experienced it, so whatever goes on in Iraq and elsewhere is somehow removed from us. It's sickening.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Yes, back in the 1980s, the husband of one of my cousins was
always railing against "those wimpy anti-nuke protesters in Europe who'd rather be Russian slaves."

Then he and my cousin went to Europe to visit another cousin, a retired military man who married a German woman and settled in her hometown.

He came back from the trip saying,"I understand where they're coming from now. They know what war is all about."

Go to a home in Germany or Japan, and you're likely to see family pictures of someone or several someones, military or civilian, who was killed in World War II.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-27-08 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
28. I really wonder what gives us the right to wreck this poor planet of ours.
A quote from Kurt Vonnegut
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shance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. You know UPI, I think that question is better served towards those with a "superiority complex'
who are the ones destroying the planet and thriving on competing and beating everyone else to a pulp for their own superficial gain.

There are so many others who have a balanced enough perspective that they aren't seeking to destroy any and all.

They simply want a good life and others with which to enjoy it.
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 02:09 AM
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35. ...
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OakCliffDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-28-08 05:52 AM
Response to Original message
37. Kick
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