DUers I have a request

[malaise]

Would everyone who supports Dems pushing this bailout please tell us your position on the Iraq War Resolution(not your position today - your position back then).

Thanks.

add

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

1. I've been thinking about the same thing too. Thanks for posting this. :) My response

a few minutes ago to another thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4103823&mesg_id=4104603

[malaise]

3. Very good post

Some of us saw through this madness early - and so did Jon Stewart.
Watch the clusterfuck segment.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

4. Jon NAILED it! Thank you again!

[malaise]

5. Why would Rethugs who went along with all the spending for

seven years suddenly become 'conservatives'. Dems are being set up here.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

6. Or, some of them are allowing our party to be "set-up". PS....

you notice there aren't too many people responding to this thread..maybe it's giving them food for thought.

[shadowknows69]

2. Opposed the war, not happy about the speed of the bailout

I know if we don't give the extorters something they'll reign hell down upon the rest of us somehow so we're screwn but we hold the purse and should do this slower and more intelligently than I fear we will.

[malaise]

7. It's their hell

Bring it on!

[WhollyHeretic]

9. That's a real smart sentiment

:eyes:

[Ghost in the Machine]

13. You consider *your* response intelligent??

:eyes:

Why don't you try adding something intelligent, or relevant, to the conversation? Too hard??

[WhollyHeretic]

16. What is smart about "bring it on"? You do realize who is going to get hurt the most

in that situation right? hint for the intellectually challenged: It's not the rich fuckers

[malaise]

18. Do you realize who is getting hurt the most right now

Do you realize that if these fuggers get away with this, even more people will get hurt and your rights will be a nice memory.

[WhollyHeretic]

19. I'm not sure what needs to be done in this mess but I think people

who seem to welcome a depression are ridiculously naive at best.

[malaise]

20. I'll take a depression over a one party

fascist state any day of the week

[Ghost in the Machine]

38. What's smart about a condescending reply?

You didn't address anything, you didn't add anything relevant ot intelligent to the conversation or anything else.

Snark just for the sake of snark is funny sometimes. This wasn't one of those times...

You think "rich fuckers" won't get hurt, too?? Here's a free clue.. *their* money will be just as worthless as everyone elses. They won't be "rich fuckers" anymore.

[WhollyHeretic]

49. Sorry but snark is about all this thread rates.

It is trying to tie to completely separate things together. We have evidence that bad shit is happening now. WAMU? Lehman? How many other regional banks this year? I'm not sure what the solution is but wanting our economy to burn probably isn't the smartest idea. Don't ya think? Making ridiculous connections to attack those you disagree with is usually not the most helpful tactic.

[Gin]

10. opposed the war...oppose the bailout......

...this is a give away...no matter what restrictions are added..bush get one last grab for his BASE before the election...

[redqueen]

8. I was against the IWR. (nt)

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. I think a DUer made a good point yesterday saying how the comparison is limited

The marketing stakes have been jacked up so high by this White House that every policy they want to shove down our throats is framed as the be-all end-all crisis. People are often making the IWR analogy, which is fair--as the Daily Show pointed out the rhetoric from the administration is very similar. Now I found Powell's cartoon trucks ridiculous, as I assume many DUers did. But the more I read about this, a more comparable scenario would be if Saddam had a proved connection to 9/11, El Baradei believed he had nuclear weapons, and Hans Blix was tripping over mustard gas canisters on every third Iraqi dune. Maybe it's because economics isn't as familiar to me as world history, but there seem to be far more signs and a far greater consensus that we're in trouble here than there ever was for any other Bush "Crisis! OMG act now!"

jpgray

And I think that's a good point. Banks actually are failing; we have real evidence this time that there's a big problem, and not just from a morally bankrupt administration. For the record, I opposed action in Iraq, and thought the IWR shouldn't have been passed.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. Yes, they are failing but I believe the first thing the Dems should do is to ask for

Paulson's immediate resignation and if he won't Impeach him. Take him out of the equation and start fresh.

[redqueen]

26. I think that is an excellent idea...

They should get extremely hard-nosed about this, too.

If the republicans are going to play games (pretending this is a Dem bill when it came from Bu$hCo & Paulson), then that gives us an opening to start playing the enforcer, crack down on that nonsense, and do this thing right (drain capital from shares, somehow nullify agreements that grant golden parachutes, etc.)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

46. From what I'm reading on the board (not near a teevee right now), it seems

that they are caving in.

I believe there is collusion going on here. There are many Repukes and some Dems that I believe are in cahoots with the "powers that be" and they are selling us down the river.

Case in point. Did you know that Christopher Dodd, in the recent bank bill, snuck in a provision that All Internet Sales and Purchases done by the use of electronic payment (credit cards, debit cards) be reported Immediately to the Federal Govt. Dodd, a Dem was behind this Huge big brother measure.

[redqueen]

48. We really need to get rid of those Dems.

Really really.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

50. Yes, we do...meanwhile...

I Love your OMG gif!!!! It's adorable!!!!

[redqueen]

51. Hehe... glad you like it!

Here's the original version, in case you'd like to save it. :)

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

53. lol! I just did! Thank you!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

12. Can You Explain The Relevance To Your Question, Since The Two Are Completely Unrelated?

What possible benefit could you gain from such an exercise?

Hey, you don't support the bailout. Can you tell me your position on what the drinking age should be?

[seemslikeadream]

17. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4101591

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

52. Why Did You Link That Useless And Irrelevant Thread?

Makes as little sense for you to have linked it in reply as it did to post the thread to begin with.

[redqueen]

21. I think it means we're not real Dems or something. Rats?

:wtf:

[malaise]

23. Not at all

I'm curious about our response to fear tactics.

[redqueen]

24. Sorry, was basing that on scarletwoman's link.

If huge bank failures is a fear tactic, then it registers as a real threat with me.

Doctored pictures and lies about aluminum tubes, not so much.

[malaise]

28. Cool

:hi:

[HamdenRice]

25. Yup we're not real Dems for supporting the Dem position; "real Dems" support House repugs

:sarcasm:

We're through the looking glass.

[redqueen]

29. I don't get it...

I see the turmoil and... it's just not the same as lies and cherrypicked intelligence... it's staring us all in the face, isn't it?

[Realityhack]

14. Not that it has ANY reliance but... I was against it. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. I was against it.

I am for reregulation. I would consider buying ownership stakes in ailing financial firms. Giving the administration money to do with as they wish, to in turn give to bankers to do with as they wish - not so much.

Given that evidence is beginning to suggest that this crisis is manufactured, I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done. Those who are manufacturing the crisis have within their power to manufacture another when the $700b dries up.

We're simply another revenue stream.

[HamdenRice]

27. I was against the war. They are not comparable.

Have you noticed that on one side of this debate is the Dems + Obama + Krugman + Paulson (who has agreed to accomodate Dem proposals); on the other side is House repugs, Gingrich and DU's "let it collapse" contingent.

Go figure.

[malaise]

30. Way more compromise is needed

I am trying to figure this out but you will need to tell me why Rethugs who supported these policies for the past seven years are suddenly jumping ship. Rethugs know they've lost this election. They are framing 2010 early. What's more they intend to head home next week and blame the Dems for the new 'socialism' (as they describe it).

I smell a set up.

add.

[HamdenRice]

31. In a complete collapse they would push through disaster capitalism

Btw, I think there's now a big gulf between the ideological repug house politicians and their business constituency who see that we really are on the abyss and are willing to give us the keys to the castle (nationalization) to save the system.

The repugs are not actually business people. They are ideologues. Look at what they are proposing. In a complete collapse they would abolish corporate taxes, capital gains taxes, all regulations, social security, etc.

People don't seem to realize that we are in an extraordinary moment of political realignment. Paulson does not represent the Bush admin or the ideological house repug position. He is "caucusing" with the Dems on this.

A few days ago, accused of implementing socialism, he said, "it's not socialism; it's necessary."

That's where we are. But people are too spitting angry to accept the keys to the kingdom.

[redqueen]

33. Wow... I didn't know Paulson said that.

And the GOP will sure use whatever desperate crap they can to spin this and everything else from hell to breakfast, but the people who buy that nonsense were never going to vote for Obama anyway.

[malaise]

34. I have always respected your views

but I smell a set up. If they use this and steal another election, it's all over.

[KharmaTrain]

32. A Touch Of Perspective....

Let me answer question two first...I was against the IWR from the very outset, and I saw those who voted for it doing so for political cover. The boooosh regime rolled out the "new product" right against the wall of the '02 elections and had the polls and media at their back. I appreciate those who stood against the pressure, and it was a major reason I could not support either Hillary Clinton and John Edwards (yes, I know he renounced his vote, but he still caved to the expediency)...it was a fatal flaw for John Kerry as well. Senator Obama was and is a clean break from the "was before it before he was against it". One of his most powerful moments in last night's debate was when he hammered Gramps on how he was wrong from the outset and all Gramps could do was cringe.

Now onto the bail-out. I see this as a powerplay, but one that can work to the Democrat's advantage. We're not talking about the Paulsen sell-out...the bill has morphed more into a temporary bail-out rather than a one-size, fits all sell-out. The money won't be handed over carte blanche and the effort here is to settle the markets through election day and then let the chips fall where they may.

Remember, the Justice Department is starting to dig in on the games played on Wall Street and no matter who wins, the pressure will be on going after the next Enron or Worldcom...finding scapegoats to satisfy the bloodlust that all sides are asking for. There also will be regulation and oversight...now much is still fuzzy and should be pending on who wins the election. Then there's the breaking down of the bailout. We're not talking the whole 700 billion but "only" 250...a "lifesaver" rather than a full-fledged bail-out...and again who wins the election is the one who will call the shots on if and how the remainder of the bail-out money is spent.

Lastly, there's the bottom up vs. top down battle that's still playing out here. The Democrats have stood firm that money needs to go to stabilize the housing and credit markets from the consumer level...helping to prevent further foreclosures and stabilize the markets from the grassroots vs. the GOOP "alternative" that just throws money at Wall Street and tells 'em to fix it...or wants more tax cuts.

Remember, this battle has opened a big rift in the GOOP ranks. No matter what bill is passed...and one will be...it's going to do more political damage to Gramps than it can to Obama. What the Democrats have done is to soften the impact...kick this can down the road and force the GOOP to be the "deciderers" here. They've drive a wedge between boooosh and Gramps at a critical time...while trying to play "mavrick", he's pissing off the 30% or so who still love all things booosh...and if he fails to deliver for the right wingnuts (the House Repugnicans)...he loses with the freepers and other dead-enders who never liked McCain to start out with and this may just keep 'em at home.

This financial crisis/mess is far from over. The core problems will remain with a "bail-out" or not. We'll be back to this "crisis" sometime within the next 6 months as the economy continues to constrict that will tighten money and thus excelerate the credit crunch that will make it difficult for the economy to rebound and force more people into bankruptcy and foreclosure...and more junk paper someone will have to eat. There's also the downturn in the retail and consumer market that will have a major impact as the holiday season turns into a last stand for many chains who are also facing credit crunches. Again, this doesn't fix these problems...just delays the resolution after November 4th.

Cheers...

:hi:

[malaise]

36. Thanks KharmaTrain

Great post.
We have all been expecting this crisis in the economy, but the timing of this move does suggest that it is a power play.
:hi:

[malaise]

39. Check this link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4100196&mesg_id=4100196

[KharmaTrain]

40. The Mortgage Mess Has To Be Addressed...

That's at the heart of the credit crisis that is driving this whole mess. The bubble burst over a year ago...some will say the real estate bubble hit the skids back in '05...but the impact is widespread. To an individual whose purchased a house in the past 6 years, as the link indicates, the reprocussions are devestating...and made worse by the repressive Bankruptcy Bill of '05 that allows interest rates to jumps at the discretion of the lender...thus if you miss a payment on the electric, that is used to justify raising the mortgage. This awful bill is what exploded the bubble and has open the doors to all these foreclosures. Senator Obama has already spoken out about repealing this regressive legislation.

The side affects of the real estate/foreclosure mess is destroying local tax bases and creating a quiet crisis where communities are cutting back on services as their property taxes shrink...and add to that the losses in retail...the crunch next year will be another "bail-out" as communities will be the next to go bankrupt.

Letting the corrupt market decide this matter for itself...without any oversight or intervention is playing into the panic card on Wall Street. Ya don't think all these CEOs who are in the crosshairs aren't looking for a way to bail? There are also stockholders who are seeing their investments vanish...they are gonna want a pound of flesh, but without government regulation or intervention of some sort, the freefall will favor the investments of the rich over those of the poor...pensions and mutual funds for those with 401ks will vanish before the profits and compensation for the company.

The rock and hard place question is having to deal with a financial mess. You can't ignore it...and the longer it goes on, the bigger the bite will be on the middle class...the people who can least afford it. Before you can fix the patient, you have to stop the bleeding...this is just a band-aid.

Cheers...

[2Design]

35. opposed the war before bush 1st inaguration -opposed patriot act

opposed all the funding of bushes war - oppose this bailout

[LeFleur1]

37. I Opposed Giving Bush Power to Invade

from the getgo. Anyone who had followed Bush's career knew he couldn't be trusted. And neither could his VP.

As to the bailout...I just don't know what would happen if nothing is done. No one seems to want to give that information either.

I don't really favor bailing out people who make $2.98 and bought a $500,000 dollar house. What were they thinking? The lenders should be in jail or a home for people who can't be in public because they are thinking disabled. At the time this was going on we wondered what in the world these people were making that they could buy such homes. Such people need to be educated about spending money they actually HAVE and forecasting what limit they can tolerate in credit.

DeRegulation, consumers who didn't understand the very basic rules of finance, and dirty crooks brought this crisis about (if there is one).

[hfojvt]

41. I have a request too

"Play crazy for me"

Is there only one bailout? In 2002, Bush started pushing for the war right after SOTU. There was some hope that the UN Security Council would say no to the war. Of course, Bush got around that by lying to them. With the IWR, Bush got pretty much what he asked for. Nobody here is supporting the Paulson plan. Is the Dodd plan no better than the Paulson plan? Is the IWR the same as the Byrd resolution? I suppose there is not a dime's worth of difference between Democratic proposals and Bush administration proposals.

I was not against weapons inspections for Iraq. Right now, I am of the opinion that something needs to be done about the financial system and I trust and support Dodd and Frank. I never supported or trusted Bush.

[Dr.Phool]

42. I've opposed every war we've been involved in since Vietnam.

I started out supporting that one, because I was a dumb 17 year old enlisted man back then. But, before I got out, I was against that one too.

Against Military Commissions act.
Against Patriot Act.
Against FISA.
Against Bailout.

Nothing that gets rushed through in an "emergency" is ever quite what they say it is.


Oops, forgot to say Against IWR before it happened, and already against the next war.

[gravity]

43. I was against the Iraq from the start

I felt awkward actually siding with George Bush when he gave his speech on the bailout plan because of it. Bush doesn't have the credibility after crying wolf on Iraq, but this is the real thing.

This isn't some fear mongering with phony intelligence on a country that posses no threat to us. It is a serious crisis, and has to be dealt with soon.

[uppityperson]

44. but OMG! we NEED to DO something NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do it right rather than doing it fast. Oh, I don't support either of those, just in case you were wondering. Which I doubt.

[MilesColtrane]

45. Against the war.

For trying to prevent systemic bank failures and economic collapse, intelligently and methodically.

[last1standing]

47. The premise of your question is too black/white for me.

I didn't support the IWR at the time - and never have since, however, I would have supported the Biden-Lugar amendment that would have given Congress much more oversight and required much more proof before launching a war.

And now, I support a bill that has proper oversight and demands proof of a company's need before doling out taxpayer funds. In other words, I support what Obama is proposing but not what the bush* administration is trying to shove down our throats.

I think I'm being pretty consistent.

[malaise]

56. Yes you are n/t

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

54. There wasn't anyone in America any more against the IWR than I was, and I support the bailout 100%

The same analytical tools that told me there were no WMD tell me the crisis is profound. (And than Ben Bernanke has at least as good a concept of the situation as anyone else is likely to.)

The two most irresponsible things I have ever seen Democrats do is 1) supporting the Iraq War, and 2) fucking around with the politics of the bail-out.

(The Republicans are, as always, vastly more irresponsible.)

[Pastiche423]

55. Opposed the war in Iraq - Oppose the bailout

I understand youR thoughts behind this question, malaise.


We Must Do This Now!


War - must pass the IWR or we'll be dealing w/a mushroom cloud.

Bailout - must pass or country will collapse.

FEAR AND LIES - BOTH!

[malaise]

57. Bingo n/t

[jpgray]

58. Completely against it. The evidence was all against the supposed "crisis" then

Here we have a different scenario--there are inarguable bits of evidence that the financial sector is in turmoil. Most experts agree that this will have repercussions on our credit system. Now as far as how dire the need is to pass -this- proposal -now-, the evidence is mixed. However the Dem proposal is vastly different and superior to the Paulson plan, and while economists dislike the Paulson plan, they -certainly- despise and fear the GOP plan.