Somebody tell me WHY are Pelosi & the Dems pushing the bailout for Bush? I'm not getting it.

[Liberal_in_LA]

Why?

[Mind_your_head]

1. They are pwned (translation: 'owned'). Pure & simple.

They can't 'move' or do anything without 'permission'. You see it. Believe it!

edit: d*mn typo

[fulllib]

2. Obama wants them united?

That way, once they see the final language, he can push it or deny it and ake the leader choice?

[babylonsister]

3. Link for your bullshit? He might want them united, but

this bailout has nothing to do with him. If he solves it, that would be good.

[avaistheone1]

4. Perhaps this will clear things up.

Congress Has 43,457,362 Reasons to Help Goldman Sachs

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4098280&mesg_id=4098280

[magellan]

5. An explanation (i.e. excuse) can always be found

Cling to comfortable belief or face the harsh truth, that's what we each have to decide for ourselves.

If this was the first time Pelosi had done this I'd be willing to give it a pass, infuriated as I am about it. But it's far from the first time. My level of infuriation is beyond words. I've had it with the Dems always caving to Bush**, even from a position of power.

It's not very inspiring, watching this bunch stand over the beaten and bloody pulp of the GOP and surrender to it every time.

[chill_wind]

9. And talk about positions of power--- Paulson wasn't the only one on his knees

"Meanwhile, new details emerged of a remarkably tumultuous White House meeting on Thursday. With the session breaking up in disarray, according to two participants, President Bush issued an appeal, saying, "Can't we just all go out and say things are OK?"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080927/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown

[Moochy]

6. Nancy Permagrin Pelosi thinks Bush

is a very nice man.

http://speaker.house.gov/contact/

[snake in the grass]

7. Because...

...the invertebrate Pelosi drinks the demon seed with almost as much zeal as your average Republican pig fluffer. She is such a fucking disgrace. In some ways I detest her more than Bush. After all, Bush is a hebephrenic psychopath so his behavior is to be expected. What is Pelosi's excuse.

[Mind_your_head]

8. Remember, talk of a bailout only began a mere two weeks ago.

It's been URGENTLY shoved in your face sinced it has been introduced. Is it "real"?

Think about it. :think:

[avaistheone1]

11. Is it real? Hell no! Paulsen and Bernanke have been discussing this for 12 months per Paulsen's

testimony and then they spring this on the American people just as Congress prepares to adjourn. How convenient.

Interestingly enough...when Paulsen was asked if Americans could have an equity share in these corporations Paulsen balked. One of the Senators asked Paulsen so these CEOs would rather see these corporations fail than give Americans an equity share. Paulsen said that equity sharing would make the program harder to sell to the CEOs. So then tell how desperately these corporations need the money! What a joke!!

[Liberal_in_LA]

14. not sure

[Eric J in MN]

10. Henry Paulson is telling Congress members...

...unless you pass the bill, terrible things might happen.

Senators described a very somber, serious meeting, with Paulson describing the risk of inaction and working hard to sell the plan to skeptical Democrats during the closed-door caucus meeting. Paulson said unemployment rates could approach 10 percent if the plan was not adopted...

"He talked about the risks in the markets, the risk of the financial system locking up, the risk of companies not being able to borrow money, the risk of major firms failing, the risk of a substantial increase in unemployment," said (Budget Committee Chairman Kent Conrad (D-N.D.)).

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/25/12919/0524/517/609685

Paulson probably isn't telling them that those terrible things might happen anyway, or that the bill might make some of the terrible things more likely, or that he doesn't really know if those terrible things will happen without the bill.

[lxlxlxl]

12. Do you understand the political implications of a 5000 drop in the Dow?

You should be angry that government is at the mercy of the market.

You should be angry that your livelihood is dependent on bankers and bond traders.

But, do you have any idea what type of Chinese Cultural Revolution you would bring to the country if the market tanked? If everyone lost their retirement? Or what would happen if foriegn investment dissappeared overnight?

What is happening here is The Event. It happened in the 30's, 70's, and 80's here in the US. It happened numerous times in the UK, Japan, and East Asia in general in 90s. People have seen this, but the language of the markets is so far from real life, and the spectacular diversions we live with moment by moment that people are unable to really grasp or prepare for it.

I understand your anger. Capital does not deserve to ta take the rest of the country hostage when they are not turning the types of profit they are accustomed to.

I think you are wrong to blame Pelosi and Reid. You should blame the Randians, the media environment that needs stupidity for attention, and people who cling to their privilege spiritually. People buy into the right wing "blame everything on the last two years" a bit too easy.

Obama can't fix that.

[Liberal_in_LA]

13. I'm not blaming Pelosi or Reid, nor am i denying the need for action... I was asking WHY THE DEMS?

Why are the dems being the chumps to push thru the legislation? sit back and let Bush and repubs work it out. dang it! The GOP already have their talking points ready "the Dems pushed thru the biggest blah blah blah in history". I read this crap on rightwing blogs.

[lxlxlxl]

29. they are the majority in the house and senate

they have the chairmanships and are the procedural leaders of the house/senate...you can't avoid the rules. plus, dont you think if they just "sat back" and let the republicans own the issue then 1) paulson would have got the blank check he asked for 2) that coverage of the bailout would make it look like the dems are even more inane or useless (although by default american coveragee does this already)

i definitely think there are better ways to control how this has been covered. I am frankly fed the fuck up with how even our "political news" throws around words like "government" and "washington" and "congress" with absolutely no reference to specific people or rules.

don't know what to say about rightwing blogs anymore. it seems like a predictable place to look for fake outrage and delusion. i personally won't bother reading them anymore.

[western mass]

19. And the Republicans are responsible.

The damage was done long before any talk of a bailout. If you want to save the Dems from political fallout, then start talking about this fact and stop pretending that the problem is the lack of a bailout.

What this crisis has shown is what has been plainly apparent for a long time...much of the value of the market is pure fiction. It's a ponzi scheme, where many investment have little value other than the fact that people are fooled into paying good money for them. Given that this is true, the market needs to collapse. This is called a market correction. It's part of capitalism. For investments that do have value, their stock will rise again to reflect that value. Again, capitalism 101. Keeping stock values artificially high through taxpayer subsidies isn't capitalism, it's just fraud.

But lots of people with well-paid lobbyists are profiting greatly from this fraud, and that's why this bailout is being rammed down our throats.

[sendero]

21. I do blame the Randians..

... but I also blame anyone who wants to make this problem worse by throwing more printed money at it.

It's time to let the markets work. The government cannot fix the $62 TRILLION CDS problem. At some point this crap is going to unwind, and all these serial bailouts can do is delay.

Why would the Dems want to prop up this dead economy until after November?

Let it die now and at least ensure that the REPUBLICAN policies that brought us here take them out of Washington.

[lxlxlxl]

31. You mentioned the magic number -- $62T

I personally welcome a stock market crash and credit crunch, but like all of the econ collapses I tried to mention earler...we have no way or idea how to replace the banking/credit/bond system with something that can keep the food moving and lights on. do you think people are strong enough to sit through that type of economic cycle and still make reasonable decisions? i just see absolute political chaos that will keep republicans back in the game.

what makes me fucking sick is

1) i think it is definitely clear though that when right wingers talk about how liberal economic/social policies threaten to destroy the economy...what they are really saying is that THEY will destroy the economy other than let those programs through. they are holding everyone hostage by using the market.

2) the way this particular economic meltdown has a top-down class warfare angle where the Randians can somehow pawn CDOs as something they did for poor homeowners out of the goodness of their sweet little hearts. it is just fucking sick to hear this stuff on TV. it is so absolutely fucking false.

3My biggest concern is that this country just doesnt seem to be able to reach any accountability anymore. If the 62T$ market crashed, and everyone stopped lending, and the market crashed taking down massive pension funds...The Repubs will blame everything on the last two years in congress, and this will work on TV.

Economics are way too complicated for overworked and frightened americans to care what CDO's or MBS's are...

Look, even with OBama...who I fucking love and have so much respect for. I think it would be great if he wins but at the same time, the country gets to turn the page on eight years of shit without really recognizing what the hell was wrong. what guarantees do we have that there isnt another Bush II coming after the next eight years.

yes i think that far in advance.

[sendero]

37. Polls show..

... that Americans blame the repubs 2 to 1 for this mess. they cannot take back their 25 year mantra of "deregulation" any more than they can grow wings.

[endthewar]

15. They HONESTLY believe that we are near a financial collapse.

Dems care about the American people, and even sometimes take politically unpopular positions to help them.

[Suspicious]

20. Which explains

their concession to dropping the help for bankrupt homeowners from the bailout. Yes, they show so much concern for the American people. :eyes:

edited for bad grammar.

[sendero]

22. They may well honestly believe that ...

.. because we are. But there is NOTHING they can do but delay it for a very short period of time.

[OregonBlue]

28. I agree but they are being snookered. They HAVE to tell Bush to get his people on board or they

will walk away!! And they have to mean it. If they do this (and now the GOP is pushing for tax breaks for these scum who created this mess) they will loose the election. It's already being considered the Democratic plan and NO ONE IN THE COUNTRY LIKES IT.

Time for the Dems to step back. They are being outfoxes big time!!!!!!!!!!

[endthewar]

30. No way in hell does Pelosi let her Dem Congress take the fall for this

She'll make sure that Bush has Republicans on board before she calls for a vote.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. They're not. They're pushing for a solution, but not..

a trillion dollar blank check.

Lest we forget, it was, after all, Paulsen who was on his knees to Pelosi.

(Once again, no occasion to savage Pelosi, no matter how unwarranted, will remain untouched)

[EmeraldCityGrl]

17. Besides believing we are near fiscal collapse, the bailout would allow leverage

and time to reorganize the current crisis. Without the bailout there will be no Santa for anyone this year...we are in deep caca.

[western mass]

18. They work for the same corporate masters?

Bush presented the Bad Cop solution. Pelosi & co. presented the Good Cop solution. Same bad solution, one just happens to be the kinder gentler version.

Ultimately the only real solution: publicly financed elections & use the primaries to cut the cancer out of the Dem Party.

[Caution]

23. Because it is necessary. Look this is about the credit market. If the credit market seizes up

which it the problem they are trying to address here, the entire economy will go into a crashing spiral. Companies borrow money regularly for things like payroll. This isn't about giving some fat cats a bunch of cash it's about keeping the economy moving.

Here are some other fallout items:

1.) Car loans will be incredibly difficult to get
2.) Education loans will go away
3.) Credit card companies will freeze accounts

If 100 banks fail and lending grinds to a halt, thousands of businesses will go under within a week or two. Millions of Americans will be out of work and the dollar will plummet. If the dollar plummets, we'll see HUGE inflation. This will force the fed to raise interest rates which means the credit market will further tighten. Suddenly, places like Wal*Mart won't be discount stores anymore because all of the foreign goods they sell will increase heavily in price and if you are out of a job, your credit limits are reduced to nothing and you don't have much savings (the vast majority of the American people) you will be in for a very very rough time.

Our economy is literally hanging by a thread here and this thing has to be pushed through. I don't like it anymore than anyone else (and I do NOT work in the financial services industry and do NOT stand to gain anything at all personally from this bill) but this has to go through or we are actually looking at another great depression and it will begin in weeks.

This situation is very bad and the government has done a bad job of explaining this to the country (possibly because they are looking to avoid blind panic in the markets and runs on banks).

[western mass]

24. Spare us the Wall Street propaganda

The ones who want you to believe that the sky is falling are the ones about to make a mountain of $$$ from this taxpayer handout.

Banks are failing because they've been swindled by fraudulant investments. This has nothing to do with the bailout.

Many economics believe that the impending credit crisis has been greatly exaggerated.
If you want an example, listen to Glen Greenwald's interview with economist Richard Sheenan:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/radio/2008/09/23/sheehan/

Who benefits from exaggerating? The bankers on the verge of a massive taxpayer handout, that's who.

[Democat]

27. If Obama loses the election, you'll have all of that and war and worse

It's not worth sacrificing this election and letting McCain win so that corporations can get some handouts from taxpayers.

If McCain wins, it will be ten times worse than if the bailout it put on hold.

Think about it - voters are against it 100-1. Voters are the people. The people are the ones who make the decisions in America.

[lxlxlxl]

33. great answer...

its a shame people dont get it, but can we blame them? the markets overcomplicate for the specific reason of making it seems so far from real life. it allows them to get away with shit like CDO's and MBS's...

[MadHound]

25. Two party/same corporate master system of government

When their corporate masters say Jump, the bought and paid for Dems ask How High.

[Democat]

26. Nothing in the bailout is more important than winning this election!

If the Democrats screw Obama by pushing this through, and we lose the election because of this, far more people will suffer than will suffer if this deal gets delayed.

Think about the damage Bush has done - and the dead people around the world because of Bush's wars and other policies - and convince me that losing the election is worth it to give some money to corporations.

Democrats had better not fall for this Bush/McCain trick.

This election must be won at all cost.

[Pastiche423]

36. If the Democrats screw Obama?

He is FOR the bailout. Or haven't you been paying attention?

[Individualist]

32. DLC is why

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5396391

[leftofthedial]

34. Pelosi has been on bushboy's side pretty consistently

[0rganism]

35. blackmail and extortion

I've been trying all week to find a reason. It's the only one that makes sense so far.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4106362