Gospel magazine taken off shelves...had cover picture of women pastors.

[madfloridian]

It's okay for a woman to run for president, but not okay for one to be a pastor.

That is so utterly strange to me. When I was still a Southern Baptist before they preached for the Iraq War, it was already becoming pretty obvious what the role of women would be.

They want them home, submissive to their husbands, and they do not approve of women being pastors.

It has gone so far that an issue of Gospel Today was taken off the shelf and sold from under the counter. Taken off the shelf by a bookstore owned by Southern Baptists.

Here is the offending picture. From the Atlanta Journal Constitution



Fayetteville-based publication features women pastors on cover

Smiling women on the cover of a slick magazine. Sold from under the counter. Must request it from store clerk.

Gospel Today, the Fayetteville-published magazine, was pulled off the racks by the bookstores’ owner, the Southern Baptist Convention. The problem? The five smiling women on the cover are women of the cloth — church pastors.

Southern Baptist polity says that’s a role reserved for men.

Teresa Hairston, owner of Gospel Today, whose glossy pages feature upbeat articles about health, living, music and ministry, said she discovered by e-mail that the September/October issue of the magazine had been demoted to the realm of the risque.

“It’s really kind of sad when you have people like Gov. Sarah Palin and Sen. Hillary Clinton providing encouragement and being role models for women around the world that we have such a divergent opinion about women who are able to be leaders in the church,” Hairston said. “I was pretty shocked.”

Chris Turner, a spokesman for Lifeway Resources, which runs the stores for the Southern Baptist Convention, said, “It is contrary to what we believe.”

It bases those beliefs on their interpretation of New Testament Scriptures.

This is just utterly ridiculous. There is no way this even makes sense. This is carrying a religion to extremes.

[BlueJazz]

1. I'm glad they took it down.

I mean...What will the children think?

[TechBear_Seattle]

31. Worse: What will the women think?

I mean, we can't allow them to believe that they can be pastors or have other kinds of leadership positions.

[bos1]

46. it's the SAUDI ARABIA model

In Saudi Arabia, it's illegal for women to drive a car. But they never updated the laws, so there is one female airline pilot -- but she has to be driven to the airport on her way to flying off in the plane!

True story.

[Rob H.]

2. Looks like a little premature exclamation

Breaking the Glass Ceiling!

Or not.

FWIW, I live in the south and have pretty much had my fill of the Southern Baptists here. It isn't just female pastors that get them all squicked out, either--a friend of mine was trying to get a gig teaching a class that had nothing to do with religion at a local SB megachurch and the "leadership team" (all-male, naturally) had problems with her teaching the class because of her gender. She was qualified and had taught at plenty of other places but they couldn't have been more backward if they'd reacted with zOMG! It's one o' them wimmenfolk an' she done found our treehouse! Pull up the ladder! Cooties! Cooties! Ew! Ew! EW!

Sadly, she's now a member of that same church.

[madfloridian]

5. People like this guy hijacked the church for their extreme agenda.

Southern Baptist leader says deliberate childlessness defies God's will.

He used to be a very nice person, kind and thoughtful. Now he likes to get on TV and condemn most everyone to hell.

The church is not the one I grew up in...I hope the sensible people someday hijack it back. Some I know are trying.

[Rob H.]

9. Wow, that's a two-fer for my friend, then

She and her first husband never had children. (She's a step-mom now, but her new husband's kids are already grown and out on their own.)

[madfloridian]

10. Al's the guy in charge of the seminary...teaching the new young pastors

before they go out into the world.

Sad, huh?

[NeedleCast]

33. MF - I have a feeling they have always been this way

and have just been biding their time. The preacher at my parent's SB church used to seem like a pretty normal guy. I used to go to high school with his son and daugther. The preachers son and I were one class apart and played on the football team together. We weren't close, but he seemed like a pretty normal guy. When I moved away from home in my late teens I pretty much moved away from organized religion as well, but I attended their church long enough as a teen to have a pretty good grasp (I thought) on the preacher.

However, years later when I go back to visit, the mood in that church has change in a scary way. The preacher has gone from a pretty normal guy to a mouth-breathing flat earther. Claims the earth is 6,000 years old and Jebus rode dinosaurs. They pretty openly preach hatered of gays, muslims, liberals, scientists and anything else that doesn't conform to their newly found old testement divinity.

At the end of the day, I think the preacher and the other ranking members of the church have probably always believed these things but have only recently had the way paved for them to "come out" with the hard core fanaticism. My dad has since left that particular church although my mom is still "hardcore" (but not as bad as many of the congregation. It's almost funny, as my mom has a microbiology degree so she KNOWS a lot of this anti-science stuff is bullshit, but she wants so badly to believe the preacher is right. I never have understood her mindset on this.

[Jamastiene]

21. I wish I could rate this reply: MUST READ.

"She was qualified and had taught at plenty of other places but they couldn't have been more backward if they'd reacted with zOMG! It's one o' them wimmenfolk an' she done found our treehouse! Pull up the ladder! Cooties! Cooties! Ew! Ew! EW!"

I'm :rofl: but it IS true, sadly.

[curious one]

3. What is wrong with them? Are they even afraid of a magazine cover?

[Duke Newcombe]

4. Dupe. Many times over. n/t

[madfloridian]

6. Explain.

:shrug:

[Duke Newcombe]

7. Seen this story posted here on DU many times over. It's a Duplicate.

As Skinner would have us believe, "Good DU citizens check for duplicates!" :)

Duke

[madfloridian]

8. I did a search in GD on the word "gospel"...an archive search.

It did not show up.

It was not visible to me, and I had not seen it.

I see lots of dupes here, but I don't go around telling people they are not good citizens.

[damntexdem]

15. Sept. 18 date for the article: not breaking news, but not too old.

I sure hadn't seen it before.

Even if it IS a dupe, it's one I haven't seen before, so I'm glad it was posted.

[madfloridian]

18. Thank you. Nothing showed for me on a search.

This is the kind of thing that makes me wonder about the new rating system.

It could become a personality tool.

I seldom rate or get rated anyway...so won't bother me.

[Duke Newcombe]

22. UH...You may wanna slow that roll a bit...

I just repeated what I see when I post something in GD--a friendly reminder from the software that "Good DU citizens check for dupes!"--no need to get defensive, as I was merely repeating the saying used regarding checking for dupes. If you can identify where I went "around telling people they are not good citizens", I'll gladly apologize. Who was this referring to?

BTW, I searched the terms "magazine women pastors" and got this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4033411

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3505340 (got folded into the first...I wonder why?)

and then, yours.

Say...to keep everyone happy, I'll just use the nifty "hide thread" option. That way, no one gets offended, mkay?

Regards,

Duke

[madfloridian]

23. Oh...I forgot to use YOUR search terms.

I find it offensive that you are so bent out of shape over this.

There was no reason for it at all.

I did not offend anyone but Southern Baptist extremists with the post.

Updating my list....knew it was good for something.

[Dorian Gray]

32. First time

I saw the article on DU too.

Lots of threads are dupes. Why pick on this one?

[madfloridian]

11. Wow, someone just gave me a skip it. That's just ugly.

.

[slipslidingaway]

12. How do you know that someone gave you a skip? n/t

[madfloridian]

14. It was there a minute ago...then it went to average.

Just said "skip it".

[slipslidingaway]

16. So then others raised the thread rating by giving a higher rating

I guess... could that be a whole new game for some? I'll have to read the rating post again, thanks.

:hi:

[damntexdem]

13. Who was on the center fold-out?

;-)

[Swede Atlanta]

17. Where is the scriptural basis fo excluding women??

I am a Lutheran and belong to the "enlightened" Synod that recognizes the value that women in the pulpit and in ministry can bring. I came from the "old school" Synod that still denies women access to the pulpit and even deny women the right to vote on decisions in the congregation.

I argue this point with my Aunt who is still in the "old school" to no avail. I ask her where it says in the Bible that women shouldn't be ordained and she can't answer other than Old Testament quotes that a woman must be subservient to her husband. I try to explain that culturally in the times of Jesus all Rabbis were men. But that was a cultural distinction, not a theological one.

Further I suggest to her that her church is excluding over 50% of the population from consideration for positions in the pulpit. At a time when churches are struggling to fill their seminaries and pulpits this is a recipe for extinction. Further when more and more women are single parents or managing the finances in a family, excluding them from decision making in the church is similarly dangerous.

All in all I have found the balance of men and women in the ministry of the church to be a powerful paradigm with each individual and sex bring unique qualities to the care and feeding of the flock.

[Obamanaut]

24. here you go

1 Timothy 2:11-12 proclaims, “A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.” In the church, God assigns different roles to men and women. This is a result of the way mankind was created (1 Timothy 2:13) and the way in which sin entered the world (2 Timothy 2:14). God, through the Apostle Paul’s writing, restricts women from serving in roles of spiritual teaching authority over men. This precludes women from serving as pastors, which definitely includes preaching to, teaching, and having spiritual authority over men.

[madfloridian]

27. Apostle Paul had some very weird views about women.

If you take his views on out to their logical conclusion, Sarah Palin should be home...not running for president to be boss over men.

I grew up wondering about Paul. A lot. He surely did not like women.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Yeah, but Paul's books, they are the Word, no?

People like Palin and most of the small c christianists cherry pick the Word. They will reject huge passages of the Pauline letters that don't fit their desires, but they will filng that same author's neurosis at GLBT people all day long. If you reject the anti-woman parts of Paul, all of Paul has to go, or you are just keeping the bits that allow for prejudice.
The Palins of the world shout Leviticus at GLBT people as well, but we all know they reject and refuse the law of that book as it would apply to themselves.
Religious folk simply think others should follow some crap they heard spouted by some hack preacher, they never dream of living by the rules themselves. If you do not accept Paul's teachings about women, then you must reject Paul's teachings about GLBT people, for example. If those women really should be preacing in church, then opposing the rights of others based on something else Paul said is clearly hypocritical and blasphemous. If they should preach, then GLBT people should be free and equal in every way.
I'll let the racist history of the SoBaptist 'church' be Googled by those who have interest. It was the 90's before they apologized for opposing integration, correct?

[L0oniX]

36. I also have doubts about some of what Paul says remembering that he was a hard core ...

authoritarian before his conversion and knowing that people don't change all that quick and some things don't change at all.

[Bluenorthwest]

38. Paul was a Roman shill

But my issue is with the wide world of faith, from Palin types on down the line, who foist their own prejudices off on scriptures that they refuse to follow. Paul says Palin should be at home with the kids, but Palin quotes Paul about me. Same for Leviticus. It is just high time for these religionist hypocrites to fess up that they don't give a rip what it says in the book and therefore stop being anti-gay. Any woman who dares to instruct a man and then says she oppposes gay marriage because of scripture is a hypocrite to the very core, in fact worse, these people call their bigotry by the divine name, worshipping hate as if it were God.

[Liberalatus]

19. It's kind of funny...

I know a guy whose mom is really right-wing religious conservative. She said she said she wasn't voting for McCain because if something happened, Palin would become President. When asked what she disagreed with about Palin, she said that "Maybe if she was at home, taking care of her family, then she wouldn't have a pregnant 17yo." It wasn't the issue so much about Bristol being pregnant, it was more that she believes the woman's place is in the home, taking care of her family.
Actually, my grandmother and mother-in-law (who is so far Right, she fell off the spectrum) don't think women should hold offices for the same reason, although they haven't commented specifically about Palin yet.

Old school religious, there. I guess she is sexist...

[madfloridian]

20. An ex-email friend of mine refused to watch her daughter's kids...

because she disapproved of her daughter working. Her daughter's hubby was disabled, so she had to go to work. Mom would not help her because she went to work.

I wrote her back, and I asked her how they would get by? She said God would provide.

I said no more mails.

[Obamanaut]

26. A bit over 2 years ago, my wife wrecked her motor scooter. While

she was still in ICU in Gainesville, her sister sent out her email "daily devotional" in which she said that when she heard of her sister's accident she "did not pray for healing or even survival, but only that god's light would shine through."

The sister is a fundy, my wife is normal. She did survive btw (helmets really are your friends.) My wife understands why I loathe her sister.

edited to fix some grammar

[Liberalatus]

34. Sorry to hear of your family's misfortune..

I, myself, am a person of strong faith, but some of the thought processes of some of these religious people, fundies especially, are so strange to me. I have no idea how they arrive in that mode of thinking. My own mother, included. That sounds EXACTLY like something she would say. It doesn't matter what happens to anyone, no matter how unfortunate, but only if it is "God's will". If he chooses to use someone's death, or lifetime of handicap, for whatever reason, to allow "His light" to shine, then, well, you should be thankful he chose to use you.

In any case, I hope that whatever happens, she and you are both stronger, or somehow did grow, or gain something positive, somehow, from the whole situation.

[Obamanaut]

39. Thank you for your kind words.

Wife was released by the last doctor this past Feb. (Last in a long string of many.)

She comes from a Baptist family, with two brothers who are ministers. I am a non-believer, and my sister is a very knowledgeable Episcopalian. No one can explain what happened to the fundy sister to make her the way she is.

Wife has told me that I am much nicer since her "thump on the head." The after-effects, we've been told, are consistent with what is seen in normal aging, only several years early (balance and memory issues, for example.) Both of us are 60+, so we were expecting these things. And it did bring our family closer together. Discovered my oldest daughter to be the strongest woman I've ever known.

[madfloridian]

42. That's sad.

Families have been so divided by Bush and by religion since he took office. He used the most vulnerable to gain power, and McCain is doing the same thing now.

Hope things are better with your wife.. We had so much division in our family.

[malaise]

25. So are they supporting the McPOW.Palin ticket?

have they seen Palin in the swimsuit? What about her beauty contest clothes. I swear these people aer batshit crazy.

[bertman]

28. I wonder if it was the nude centerfolds or the four black women on the cover that caused

them to pull that issue.


But seriously, Madflo, "This is carrying a religion to extremes." You must not be familiar with our Southern Baptist brethren and sistren. They are extreme.

[madfloridian]

29. I have frequently posted that I was raised in that church.

That my children were raised there. I often refer to myself as a recovering Southern Baptist.

They are extreme. Yes. My dad, a deacon emeritus, would be heartbroken if he were alive to see it.

[bertman]

30. I had not read those posts. I come from the same background. Dad chairman of the Board of Deacons,

I was "Youth Week Pastor" when a senior in High School. Our family was a Sunday School, Sunday service, BTU, Sunday evening service, Wednesday prayer meeting, RA's, GA's, Women's Auxiliary, all revival meetings type of family.

While active in the church (by default, of course) I never saw the extremism. Just the hypocrisy. And boy was it there in abundance. We kids used to talk about it all the time. But the only seriously bad feelings I got were when, in the early 60's, our town was going through integration. There was some talk of black folks worshipping with us--and maybe even joining the church. Sweet Jaheesus, two-thirds of that Christian congregation rose up in rebellion at the thought of "them" coming to our church. I was almost physically ill from that display of naked hatred for our fellow men. I think that was the first time I ever thought that I might be "different" from my fellow Southern Baptists in a big way.

I'm not so sure my parents, who were both heavily involved in the church, would object to the current church philosophy. I'm sad to say. They had an amazing gift for ignoring the scripture that did not support their prejudices.

If you're "recovering" I'm long ago "recovered". Thank whatever for that.

Edited to say: One thing that did amaze me was how kind and considerate the church folk could be toward other folks LIKE THEM who were less fortunate or in dire straits for some reason or the other. I always considered my parents to be GOOD people who were very narrow-minded and unenlightened about anything but their own tiny culture.

Kind of reminds me of all the church groups that I saw when working on Katrina recovery on the Gulf Coast. Thousands of them helping their fellow human beings. Interestingly enough, many of them were doing it through and for local churches and their members and not just for the public at large. Although, I'm sure there were plenty of them who were there for whomever needed help.

[tomreedtoon]

37. They didn't have to "carry it" to extremes.

Many of the right-wing Christian churches are already there. And they're getting worse the more it looks like the public is abandoning them.

[intheflow]

40. More pornographic than Playboy!

At least in Playboy women admit they're whores, here these shameless hussies are parading their sexuality around in front of God! :puke:

[madfloridian]

41. LOL

Had to read that twice. :rofl:

[intheflow]

43. I went to seminary to be a minister.

I'm a woman, and I went to a very progressive seminary. Still, I encountered a few classmates, evangelical fundy men, who thought women shouldn't be ordained. Care and council people? OK. Participate in services? OK. Run the religious ed program, the music program, outreach programs, and go to dangerous countries to convert the heathen? All fine and dandy by these men. But ordain women? Blasphemy! :crazy:

[madfloridian]

44. Yet the same ones accept a woman in a poltical power office.

Just not a religious one. It makes no sense. The fact that we have Sarah Palin actually being a candidate is proof the right wing is still under their control.

My dad was starting to get vibes from the church before he was unable to be active because of illness. He said they were changing before his eyes. He was a dignified, intelligent man, and he was respected. He came home from one meeting at the church nearly in tears, and he seldom went back after that. So sad.

[intheflow]

45. The ONLY thing I agree with the Assembly of God denomination

is that they ordain women, and have been doing so since they were founded in 1914. File that under strange but true stories!

http://www.religioustolerance.org/femclrg13.htm
http://www.ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_0821_ordination.cfm

[bos1]

47. Palin in White House = start of the US Taliban

The Palin nomination was one of two things that lit a fire under me about this election.

[Cherchez la Femme]

48. They used the Bible as justification for slavery too.

By the way: a woman is NOT running for president.
We fixed that.


It's interesting that I'm the only one who rated this 'Must Read'.

I wonder what the voting would be if, instead of 'women' the headline read 'black' or brown people in general?

Good old DU, the egregious primary comments posted here has taught it nothing -- racism is an outrage (as it should be), but sexism?

Meh.

Even though any non-white population (along with caucasian) is composed of women by 50% or more, women still aren't that important. Isn't that funny?



John and Yoko were right.