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It just amazes me how many are knee jerking to this plan

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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:13 AM
Original message
It just amazes me how many are knee jerking to this plan
This seems to me like they have to buy a bunch of mbs, clean out the bad ones and resell them potentially as a profit. Banks rely on these mbs to be valued to conduct day to day business. The Govt is the only instution large enough to buy these in bulk and clean them up.

Assuming Dodd's amendments go into the plan, what is the big deal? As long as there is oversight, I have no problem with this.

Seems there is a ton of disinformation going around.

Hamdenrice explained the situation brilliantly, unless hes wrong, whats the problem exactly (besides section 8)???

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4027506

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4059821
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lame54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's a Bush plan - of course there's disinformation
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. as the bad loans were being made the loaners were writing insurance on each others loans so when
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 10:26 AM by sam sarrha
this happened they would get paid "Twice" for the bad loans.. this is why they are ramming it through. if congress investigates they wont get the insurance they planned on:wtf: they will be getting money for a loan which they didn't have the money to make a loan with

this is another Bu$hitCo Mafia RICO CRIME.. Poppy's Ponzy only ripped off $500 billion with the aid id John McCane who helped deregulate the S&L industry. the Shrub finally out did hid daddy, this will be the Legacy he has been looking for
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. It is CRUCIAL that the writers of these bad loans have access to an additional trillion dollars
of taxpayer money.

They promise they won't do it again.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
3. Other than that, Mrs.Lincoln, what did you think about the play?
Yeah, Section 8 has to go and go right away. Sorry if an objection to that seems "knee jerk" but if I'm going to hand over $700 billion to someone, I'd like to have some oversight, review, and the possibility of throwing him in jail if he misuses the money.

Next is the idea that these packages need to be bailed out pre-emptively. Quite a number of them haven't failed, and some may never fail, yet we're throwing money at it without the least idea of what all we're buying, what sorts of payback guarantees we're going to get, and what reforms are going to be made so that in another 20 years we're not doing it all again (cf. the savings and loan industry meltdown of the 1980s, brought to us by many of the same people bringing us the mortgage "crisis").

Third, who's going to jail for this? Someone made a shitload of money and didn't share it. What are the criminal penalties associated with this unprecedented outlay of public money?

Get me the answers to these questions, and in the meantime, I'll come up with some more, just so you don't think I'm "knee jerking."
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. the problem is nobody knows which securities are good or not
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 10:28 AM by LSK
So the Govt is going to buy a whole bunch of them, clean out the bad and resell them as good and everyone will be able to trust these securities. We are buying Mortgage Backed Securities.

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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
4. Can you answer a question for me?
I have posted it a couple of times in other threads but have not been provided an answer yet.

Is there a trust fund that contains/protects the presidents' retirement and congress members retirement?

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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
27. Answer: No. They're called "unfunded mandates."
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 11:10 AM by TahitiNut
More to the point, about 2/3rds of federal spending is "off-budget" ... things like Social Security, Medicare, federal pensions ... where the expense is mandated by established promises/agreements and not really subject to legislated spending cuts/increases like ongoing operations.

There WOULD be a 'trust fund' for such expenses *IF* people were paying into the fund as well as getting paid from the fund ... like Social Security. The Social Security Trust Fund has existed from the beginning of FICA ... sometimes with a negative balance. It's essentially an accounting 'reality' and not some mayonnaise jar.
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merh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. Thank you for answering my question.
I was hoping they could use their trust to bankroll the bailout - that would only be fair since they are the ones that allowed this to happen, they should have to risk their security to straighten it all out.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. "Clean them up" = "eat the loss"
"resell them potentially as a profit."

If there was a profit to be made, the private sector would be interested in buying these securities. They are not. As far as the market is concerned, there is no potential to make a profit on the purchase of these securities.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. you missed the part where the Govt was going to clean up the securities
I provide links, why don't people bother reading???
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Define the euphemism "clean up the securities", please. I think it just means, "eat the loss"
I read Hamden's posts yesterday, and they are illogical.

The "value" of an asset is defined as what a willing seller will pay, and a willing buyer will accept.

An asset for which there is no buyer is, by definition, without value.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. what is the value of an unknown MBS vs a certified cleaned MBS??
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 10:39 AM by LSK
All of them are currently unknown with potentially bad mortgages in them. When the government removes the bad mortgages, they would be a lot more valuable, don't you think??? What is illogical about this simple concept?

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I see. You do just mean, "eat the loss".
"When the government removes the bad mortgages, they would be a lot more valuable, don't you think??? What is illogical about this simple concept?"

You are talking about a miracle of fish-and-loaves.

The US government can't absorb the private sector's losses, allow the private sector to retain its profits, and "profit" from the whole transaction. You are creating money out of thin air.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. the loss comes when the Govt is buying the MBS at a discount
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 10:45 AM by LSK
The banks are eating it, not the Govt. The banks are selling it to the Govt at a loss.

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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. No, the loss occurs when the US government becomes the buyer of last resort of bad paper.
Who, pray tell, will the government sell the bad paper to?

"The banks are eating it, not the Govt. The banks are selling it to the Govt at a loss."

Right. In a capitalist system, "investors" bear the risk of gain, as well as the risk of loss. Assigning any portion of the loss to the government is a bailout, and is by no means a "profit" (your word!) to the US taxpayer.

Debt is not wealth.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:29 AM
Original message
but the good ones will be sold to cronies for 5 cents on the dollar..
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. no, they wont, they will be sold to the banking system as a whole to function properly
Read the links please.
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
7. My dog's sense of smell amazes me, too.
But it doesn't amaze him. (Apologies to Paul Auster for using his great line)
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Redbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
9. The difference between Dodd's plan and Paulson's plan is huge.
It's not just oversight.

It's the taxpayers get an equity stake.

It's homeowners get some relief.

It's bankruptcy judges can restructure mortgages to keep people in their homes.

It's taxpayers not paying for bogus CEO compensation.

The Paulson plan is both a bailout AND a huge giveaway to the financial industry. Long term, it would be worse than doing nothing.

The Dodd plan plus the Frank surtax is, on the other hand, a reasonable idea.
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CitizenPatriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
11. aren't you the brave one?
I would have to say that people are angry that we got here in the first place, and angry about the CEOs not giving up their bennies first.

In looking at how Sweden handled this, their plan made a lot of sense and worked very well. it seems to me that the most important issue is how they value the debt. The debt needs to be valued properly, so as not to cause inflation and also to give a sense on Wall Street that things are not being overpaid for by the govt. They did have the companies sell off what they could and pay down the debt on their own as much as possible and the CEOS didn't walk away rich from having made mistakes. Pardon my rather ignorant paraphrasing of the subject, as I am not a financial expert by anyone's standards.

Oversight by economic gurus on both sides of the aisle and some scholars to boot is necessary.

Now that they've started throwing in student loan debt, car loan debt, and credit card debt -- I just want to scream, stop being greedy. But what do I know.

I also wish the Pukes would stop politicizing this as the Dems fault, and saying we want to use govt money for bank bail outs. these people are supposed to be leaders, and they are acting like children. We know whose plan this is, and what ideas got us into this mess. Now get on with fixing it and earn your paycheck and try to squeeze an ounce of public trust out of it by keeping the books open and transparent. That is where the oversight needs to come in. For once. No more WMD bs:-)

That's my 2 cents this AM as I sit here much poorer but wiser. Oh, and BAC statement was interesting this AM that the bail out will help Morgan Stanley more than anyone else (Paulson or bernake worked there?). They need to avoid these conflicts of interest via oversight. We need an adherence to the constitution and we also need these asshats to stop playing politics and do their jobs; do what is right for this country for once.

Sigh.

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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. the other loans being thrown into this makes no sense
Im not sure where this is coming from???

Unfortunately, Congress cannot make a quick bill just for one thing, they have to pile in a bunch of shit all the time.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
14. From Hamden's post, I find I can't write checks and I can't use other ATMs.
BFD.

I want these suckers to fail. I want the public to feel what is going on, how their trust has been abused.

But we can always just push it into the future. Make it a problem for our kids to deal with, like the environment. Very trendy. :eyes:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. can you read the whole thing please????
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I like to pay my mortgage and pay bills! Do you live on your own???

:wtf:
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I read the whole thing.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 10:40 AM by wtmusic
Do you really think the financial industry will fall into a river over this? That there won't be some magic way that materializes for your mortgage lender to get your money?

The bailout is nonsense. Here is a better solution: let AIG go to hell, and have the feds set up temporary loan insurance (at a high rate) until a competitive insurer takes their place.

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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. AIG is a completely different issue
As is Bear Stearns and Lehman and the others.

This plan should ONLY deal with MBS.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Why should the fed have to separate the winners from the losers?
That is a bank's job. The only crisis here is liquidity - and watch banks figure out in a hurry what their MBSs are worth when their settlements are at stake.

We're essentially charging the taxpayer 3/4 of a trillion dollars (plus interest) for convenience.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. you are comparing apples to oranges
Stop confusing the issues.

This is about giving the banking system clean securities so they can function properly.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. Not at all.
"Functioning properly" includes the capability of failure. The banking system is not one entity (at least not yet) and some banks will fail. At that point the FDIC, which has worked just fine since 1933, can take over assets and sell whatever's left over. Maybe we will need to legislate an emergency appropriation to the FDIC, if so, that is the time to spend taxpayer's money - not before. Not giving shoddy business and shoddy management a new lease which they don't deserve.

You want the federal government deciding the value of MBSs? Based on what? Why should I trust their opinion over the market's? :shrug:
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. can you please read Hamdenrice's threads???
You make no sense. Its like you took bits of information and are just throwing back words at me without knowing whats really going on.

Banks to function, need to transfer money to other banks. They do this with MBS backing up the money transfers.

"Now add the current financial and mortgage backed securities crisis. These securities are the basic building blocks of banking. That's where banks park their money. But right now no one knows whether they are performing and whic ones, how much they're worth, and which banks have how much good stuff and bad stuff. Moreover, with the sudden failure of gigantic financial institutions like Lehman and Bear Stearns, suddenly, it's possible that a bank really could disappear overnight.

So, one of the things that is happening in this crisis is that banks may not lend each other money to take care of these and other settlements. The result would be that all banks owe each other money every night without any bank being brave (or foolish) enough to take the other's word on payment in the morning or when debts cancel each other out. Even if one bank offers another collateral, that collateral is likely to be a mortgage backed security, which no one will accept right now.

To put it bluntly, a bank that can't meet its settlement obligations at the end of the day, even if it is because of a generalized credit freeze, is for all intents and purposes, "insolvent."

That is the picture of a generalized credit crisis. If banks can't trust each other on settlements, then they can't cash your checks or give you money from ATMs other than their own."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=4027506
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. I read it ferchrissakes. You're adding nothing new but hysteria.
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 11:46 AM by wtmusic
Hamden says no one will accept mortgage-backed securities as collateral right now. That's funny, I withdrew $100 at a 7-Eleven this morning using a little machine that had loads of trust in the MBSs at my bank, Bank of America.

Maybe there will be a time when they won't give my wife money from her account at WAMU. She'll have to submit a claim to the FDIC and it will be a big hassle. Our taxes may go up. The sky will not fall but WAMU will. From what I understand, they have it coming.

Or we can coddle these idiots and pay to reward mismanagement.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
15. And we take on another fuckload of debt
Making our debt to gross GDP ration run at around 72%, thus getting our US Treasury Bonds downgraded, and all holy hell breaks loose. Meanwhile, the value of the dollar weakens due to confidence about this debt load and also because we're injecting a fuckload of liquidity into the system, sending inflation through the roof, and that's even if the government decides not to try and print their way out of debt(and if you want a real nightmare, just think about what happens if the presses do start rolling).

Some of us don't base our decisions and opinions based on disinformation. Some of us actually go out and talk to and listen to actual real live economists who know what the fuck they're talking about. And frankly, all the economists that I've listened and talked to are saying that if the choice is between this bailout and doing nothing, it is better to do nothing. We can recover from the Great Depression that will follow. If we do the bailout then there really won't be a damn thing left of the economy, government or this country to recover.

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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Word. nt
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
26. Fool me once.....
:think:


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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
31. The proposal is unconstitutional. It violates the separation of powers.
It is a power grab such as we have never seen. Besides, it will not work.

Federal agencies combine administrative, legislative and judicial powers. That is why they have three-part structures, an administrative part, a quasi-legislative part and a quasi-judicial part. This bill would abandon that structure and hand to the Secretary unfettered legislative and judicial power as well as administrative power.

It is interesting that you so lightly dismiss concern about the provision in the proposed bill that would prohibit judicial review of the Secretary's exercise of authority. Your analysis is persuasive only because of your clever sleight of hand. Like a magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat, you produce from thin air reassuring language that would limit the Secretary's almighty power over the property of selected institutions (selected at his discretion with no review or supervision other than that of the president). Sorry, but that language is not there. And what is more there is additional language in the proposed Act specifically granting total discretion to the Secretary in the exercise of his powers under the proposed Act.

It will take more than conjuring up imaginary magic words to convince me that the intention of the author of this proposed bill is anything other than to grant to the Secretary powers that are completely discretionary and not subject to judicial review.

As for the power of Congress, the provision that provides for reports to Congress specifies that the reports will be biannual (every six months). That language could be interpreted to mean that Congress will be barred from more frequent review. As a matter of fact, considering the past actions of the Bush administration, its refusal to allow executive employees to respond to the subpoenas issued by Congress even when Congress votes to hold the subpoenaed individual in contempt, I seriously doubt that the Secretary would be permitted to cooperate with congressional oversight other than the perfunctory reports at six month intervals. This is especially likely in view of that troubling language about the sole discretion given to the Secretary.

As I recall, the Constitution of the United States guarantees to Americans the right to due process, to property and to just compensation for the taking of property. I have not agreed to relinquish or waive those rights, and I do not believe that any other American has agreed or would agree to do so. This is particularly true of the companies who are likely to be selected by the Secretary (at his sole discretion, of course) for "bail-out" under this proposed Act. The shareholders of the companies still have the right to just compensation as do all of the rest of us when our property is taken for the common good.

The right to due process must be respected even in times of economic crisis -- even especially in times of economic crisis. I suggest that you read (and I think the Democrats in Congress also need to read) the history of the great German inflation. The Germans did not have the concept of right to just compensation. And their contract law, their Commercial Code, focused on the concept of "good faith," not the right to just compensation. When faced with massive inflation, courts simply went in and rewrote contracts (especially leases) in order to save the fortunes of the landlords (who had entered into long-term leases for specific rents with inadequate or no rent adjustment provisions and were going bankrupt as the rents due them did not even cover the cost of heating their buildings). No one should propose any solution to the current crisis without first studying the history of Germany and Austria in the 1920s and 1930s. Whether or not this bill is enacted, we face massive inflation.

There has never been a moment when Americans needed to adhere to the principals of the Constitution. This bill, unfortunately, insults our Constitution. If enacted, and even if enacted with some of the changes the Democrats propose, it will lead to a disaster even worse than the disaster we are now in. (Where is the Federalist Society now that we need them.)

We need to protect our economy from the Bush administration's propensity for panic and overdramatization. Holding a firehouse sale of American assets is not the answer. But that is precisely what this bill would encourage.

Shareholders in the mismanaged companies should have the opportunity to sue the boards of directors and managers. Those who committed criminal fraud should be brought to justice. Thus, the right to due process for all concerned should not be ignored or set aside. Due process is necessary to insure justice for all involved at all levels in this. Due process is not a luxury. It is the glue that holds our society together.

Americans need to cut back on their standard of living. We have lived far above our means for far too long.

The first luxury that we need to give up is the War in Iraq. We can't afford it. With our finances in the mess they are in, I question whether we have the money to fund an orderly exit, so we need to start that exit right now in order to give us as much time to get people out as possible before our dollar becomes worthless and we can't even buy the oil to fuel our military equipment. (That probably won't happen, but if you read the German history as I suggest, you might agree that it is a possibility, however remote.)

In addition, we need to close a lot of bases all over the world. This is a terrible, terrible thing to say, but it is the truth.

The Bush administration has way overextended the treasury. My husband and I have weathered financially difficult times. We know what how to do it. The first thing you do is stop spending. The second thing you do is to keep a very exact record of every cent that you do spend. The third thing you do is review that record and see where you can cut more expenses until your outlays and your income are in balance. First consideration: feed and clothe your children properly. That means that our first duty will be to make sure that the poor among us are fed and clothed. I seriously doubt that Secretary Paulson is thinking of them at this moment. It is Congress's job to appropriate money. So, it is their job, not Secretary Paulson's to decide how money is spent. That is another constitutional violation proposed in this bill. The Secretary would grab the power to appropriate the money received from the sales of the properties. No. No. No. The Constitution specifically gives that power to Congress. Congress should not give Paulson a blank check. That is a violation of the Constitution.

We need to stop here and remember that a major problem in our system is that this administration and previous administrations have so much black budget, secret spending, so many military commitments, so many commitments to pay off leaders of other countries. Our governments are and have been so reckless with money that it is hard to put a stop to it.
Giving the Secretary the authority to spend the proceeds from the sale of American real property assets and other paper will exacerbate that fundamental problem. Let's get back to the Constitution. It is the only way that we can prevent this kind of fiasco in the future.

In addition, the provision that allows the Secretary to enter into contacts without complying with government contract laws and regulations is unnecessary and dangerous. It would, for example, permit the Secretary to sell off American assets to agents of the Chinese government or the Dubai government -- in disregard of the will of the American people and a betrayal of American interests.

Americans can't afford healthcare, spend pitifully little on public education and eat a diet laced with cheap sugar. This bill reflects the stupidity and desire for instant gratification that caused the mortgage crisis as well as the lack of healthcare, the bad education and the obesity.

No. No. No. The Bush administration's so-called bail-out proposal is completely unacceptable. It is the wrong approach at the wrong time. It will just make things worse.

The right approach: Protect the due process and property rights of Americans. That is President Bush's solemn duty. That is the solemn duty of Congress. If they do not protect those rights, they are quite simply traitors all of them. They did not swear to uphold the dollar. They swore to uphold the Constitution. I don't believe the Constitution mentions the dollar, but I know it guarantees our rights to due process to property and to just compensation for a taking.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
32. In addition to everything else, we need to end the power of MBAs.
We have too many people in positions of power earning mega-salaries who have no human values, no historical or cultural perspective. They are essentially primitive animals who have learned to count. They are greedy and cruel. We need to get them out of positions of power and make room for real human beings.
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
34. You believe in the tooth fairy..
... if you think this plan will

1) solve anything

2) be administered fairly

No thanks.
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Individualist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
35. Damn the corporate loving DLC!
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