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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:32 PM
Original message
Basic primer on the economy
Edited on Mon Sep-22-08 11:09 PM by nadinbrzezinski
Why this matters to you?

Many across the blogosphere have written... let it crash... let it go... and in this there is a sense that people don't understand how this will affect them. So in an effort to explain some of this first lets start with Liquidity Crisis. We have heard this phrase bandied out quite a bit... so what does it mean?

Liquidity Crisis: This means that there is little to no credit. How does that affect you? Well, I am going to assume that like most Americans you have an ATM card. I am also going to assume that like most Americans you sometimes don't take money out of your bank at least some of the time. The reason why you can take that money out of your corner bank, even if this is not YOUR bank is that your corner bank trusts your bank to pay up what you took out of your account tonight. Now if your corner bank stops trusting your bank to pay up... they will not let you take that money out even if you have a million bucks in your account, to back up the sixty dollars you want to take out.

There is more... your employer... even if they are very small has a line of credit with their bank. This credit helps them to pay for things like payroll every fifteen days, regardless of whether they have the cash or not. In fact, many businesses have a yearly budget that includes a financial plan presented to the local bank where they tell the local bank what they expect to make, and then the bank decides whether to give them that line of credit. If your local bank cannot get money to lend, due to that liquidity crisis, they will stop lending your employer, who will not have cash on hand to meet obligations such as paying you a salary. They have no money, no fault of their own by the way, they will have to start freezing salaries, or plain out giving out pink slips. And once the pink slips go out, those who have lost their job cannot make payments, and cannot do other important thing that rely on credit. In effect the problem becomes worst.

Leverage

Another one of those terms bandied out like there was no tomorrow. These are essentially risky loans... where you are getting lets say 40 bucks for each physical buck in a loan. There are limits, legally, on how much of this a bank can do. And investment banks had almost no limits, so they got quite a bit of phantom money in their balance sheets. These kinds of leveraged loans were not allowed until legislation put in place to stop the practice after 1929 was removed... (Gramm-Beechley)

Derivatives

Ah yes one of those lovely things that actually, imho, has led to this mess. Basically you take ten loans (the packages are larger than that... but still serves) You break them as the lender into smaller parts, and sell them to a third party. You essentially make them into securities. The problem is that you can mix good loans, you know Mr. Jones, who pays his bill every month like clockwork, with Mr. Smith's who hasn't made any payments in a while... and that is what the bad paper is. This bad paper is part of the problem. Oh and derivatives are failrly modern... as in the last iirc 30 years or so.

So what can I do?

Plenty, call Congress early and often and make your displeasure known, and of the bill that Paulson proposed section eight (no accountability) and section two (no bid contracts) is what is so scary. They don't need to fully reinvent the wheel, as much of the legislation is still in the boosk from the Depression era... but they need to something (though this is not necessarily the way to do it) to make sure that the credit system doesn't freeze up. Oh and by the way, it did freeze up twice last week. That meant that banks were not trusting each other... why my hair is on fire... and why I get it why they need to try to stabilize this market, but they should not RUSH into it.

I hope this helps to understand a little of the alphabet soup and why this really affects each of us.

As to what to do... well we do need things like the WPA of the Depression era... as even if we stabilize this market tomorrow, there are still going to be business failures. A WPA program will still increase the deficit, (and the right will call it AGAIN, socialism) but it will keep people employed, paying taxes and buying into the economy We also need to re-regulate the markets, and a good place to start is with Glass Steegal, which after the fire is put out, probably needs to be modernized.

But chiefly you need to contact your congress critters... like now... yes, use the E-MAIL system.. and keep doing this throughout. Remember, if you don't make any noise they are going to assume that they are doing what they need to do no consequences.

Nadin

Ed for clarity
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EmeraldCityGrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Doesn't get any easier than this...
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Nonsense
:shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Hey I try... more than that I cannot do
Called the finance committee this morning, they are actually quite receptive
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TahitiNut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. You're doing OK, nad.
Folks who want to simplistically portray the homeowners as the villains are preying upon ignorance, though.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Well every crisis sees this
and it is easier, for whatever reason, to rail at the homeowners than the deregulation of the last 30 years
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BraneMatter Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #8
27. No one knows
how deep this all goes.

So if even the "experts" can't untangle the web, that kinda tells you something.

It's crooked. It's a giant wealth transfer scheme.

You're asking me to accept the Bush administration's explanation, and I don't believe ANYTHING they say. If it looks like a skunk, has a stripe down its back, and smells like a skunk... IT'S A FRICKIN' SKUNK!!!
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #27
54. I am not asking you to accept the bush administration splaination
for anything

This is a consequence of 25 years of deregulation though... what is worst, NOT THE FIRST TIME this happens....

Hey, the frst great grash was under Andrew Johnson for the same reasons...

Pich a book, it will be instructive

Every time we have CONSERVATIVES we have deregulation and we have problems of this nature

Coincidence? I don't think so
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Except that we will have to do some of that
like keep people in their houses...

See Great Depression as to why you do not want just kick them out

And you will also need to do something... read above, pay special attention to the liquidity crisis


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RxnMan1337 Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. thanks!
this clarifies a lot for me.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. You welcome, and decided to keep it as basic as possible
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great summary!
Though kind of scary. I find it interesting that the right's wailing against socialism has led Bush to nationalize a large part of our economy.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Well it allowed met to tell a freeper the other day to shoe scatt
on his welfare queen language, since we did find them, in wall street

They are having a crisis...
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
10. What about potential consequences if the bailout doesn't take place?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Non technical language, since the credit did freeze twice last week
we are screwed

And even if the bailout goes through, and it will not go through in the form Paulson wants it... it is no guarantee

We are in uncharted territory as is

Krugman essentially said the same today in the Oberman show... by the way, and he also is keeping it simple for people
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. "credit did freeze twice last week"
Edited on Mon Sep-22-08 11:24 PM by endthewar
I don't really understand what this means. More details please! :hi: I'm an engineering doctoral student, but I did get A's in two economics classes in undergrad. :rofl: I guess I'm qualified to be McCain's Secretary of Treasury! Yay! :bounce:

How long did the "freeze" last, how widespread was it, and who exactly did it affect? Thanks.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. According to an economist who went to Amy goodman;s show today
Edited on Mon Sep-22-08 11:30 PM by nadinbrzezinski
it froze for minutes at a time... and according to Krugman (in one of the many shows... lost count) at one point banks were charging each other 6+% interest in the LIBOR, that is the bank to bank overnight rate... which is under 2%

That is what got everybody's hair on fire

Given the timeline I suspect it happened Wendesday

To add, Hamdendance has posted more details on this, so let me look for the post

here you go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4059821&mesg_id=4059821
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endthewar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Thank you!
Very much appreciated! :patriot:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-22-08 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. You welcome, keeping all the balls going and doing research for email
to house and senate and daily calls, oif


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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #13
30. Here are two links to threads about the freeze
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BraneMatter Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
17. Well...
we are being told if this bailout is not rushed through, the world economy will grind to a halt, but how do we know that is true? How do we know the degree of manipulation in what we saw on Wall Street in the last week, or who was doing the manipulation?

I am not convinced that there will be no survivors if the bailout does not happen at all, and quite frankly, this all smells like a giant wealth transfer scheme.

Capitalism is by its nature a predatory system, and so the weak and the stupid would get eaten by the circling sharks. There would be takeovers and mergers, and there would be survivors. Eventually, things would recover after the vampires were done feeding.

I don't see the sense in just printing up the money, or borrowing it at a higher rate from the Chinese, just to buy up junk paper from, well... the Chinese and other foreign banks and investors.

And why should the taxpayer be stuck with the trash and the risk? And you KNOW Paulson will see to it, if left to his own devices, that all the choice values get sold off to a preferred group at pennies on the dollar, and the taxpayer would be left with the rest of near worthless junk.

And, if the crisis runs even deeper than we know, what's to keep the banks, runing scared, from sitting on the money handed out to protect their capital assests in the global crisis, or just putting it away in government securities or in tangibles, in face of the falling dollar? Still no credit then.

If there are not specific restrictions and good oversight, it's just all too vague and risky. I don't see how the taxpayer wins here.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. First what was proposed by Paulson is not exactly what will emerge
in the end

Not only you, or me are getting nervous over section 8 and 2... so is Congress.

Second... yes, the crisis is this bad... credit froze twice last week

So the choice is simple

DO NOTHING... and I can guarantee things will get far worst

Try something, minimize the effects

I can tell you, it is written in clay that some businesses will fail, and unemployment is going to go up

I will add, you and I do not live in a vacuum

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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
18. Thanks Nadin.
I'm bookmarking for later. :hi:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. You welcome, I tried to keep it as basic as I could
and to try to decipher some of the alphabet soup
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
21. kick
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:34 AM
Response to Original message
22. Let it die.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Let die what? You mean the "system?"
read this again... try to understand it
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Republicans will not let it die.
Let them take the blame.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. The ARE taking the blame
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Pelosi should play hardball.
She should guarantee 40-50 votes from the safest Democratic seats IF AND ONLY IF Dodd's bill is passed without alteration.

Otherwise, no votes to clean up their mess.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
25. Sorry, I usually support your posts & agree with you, but more & more this appears to be
nothing more than a scam and a way to rip off taxpayers to the tune of billions, probably trillions of our hard earned dollars.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. This is just a primer of how the system works
not a pro or not... though if the credit system freezez... you and I will pay a huge price
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BraneMatter Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
26. I don't believe them...
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 07:13 AM by BraneMatter
I fail to see why I should believe either Paulson or the bankers on Wall Street. This looks like economic extortion and terrorism, like something PLANNED.

"Give us trillions of dollars, or we will shut down your economy."

Well... Homey don't play that.

THEY say this, and THEY say that, but they have lied to me too many times, and now I just don't believe them anymore.

Let it crash, I'll take my chances, and let the crooks go hungry for a change! Spend the trillion plus ON THE PEOPLE.

A trillion dollars will go a long ways towards solving OUR liquidity problem.

Fuck the bankers and fuck Wall Street.

Long live the Revolution!

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GetRidOfThem Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
32. Aren't these members of the same club of poeple
that tightened personal bankruptcy laws in favor of the big banks?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. READ the 48 pages of the DODD plan
what they will get is not what they want
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
28. WTF ???
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 07:31 AM by HamdenRice
Common sense and information concerning economics? How dare you, you right wing shill!

Let it crash! We'll all die and be raptured up to a new socialist paradise!

:sarcasm:

No, actually nice post.

One quibble, sort of. People are using the term "derivative" in completely different ways that is confusing the discussion.

Strictly speaking, your description of a derivative is a description of an "asset backed security." Asset backed securities are, under one definition, derivatives -- they are a security that derives its value and characteristics from some other underlying piece of paper, like a mortgage. So you are right, a mbs is a derivative.

But more recently, people tend to restrict "derivative" to things like options, puts, calls, and other exotic derivatives -- the ones that seem like bets with no underlying value.

Those are the much more risky things that we hear thrown around attached to sums like $50 trillion.

The Wiki definition of derivative for example, no longer seems to include asset backed securities.

So when some writers say there are $50 trillion in risky derivatives that are little more than casino bets, and then you use the word derivative for mortgage backed securities, some readers wrongly attribute the attributes of the crazy derivatives to all asset backed securities.

The bailout is intended only to use mortgage backed securities, not the crazy derivatives.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. Yeaj I wanted to keep it simple
once we get ihto the exotics my hair really catches on fire

;-)
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
48. Yeaj I wanted to keep it simple
once we get ihto the exotics my hair really catches on fire

;-)
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DemoTex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 07:35 AM
Response to Original message
29. If ever a can needed kicking down the road, it is this can of worms.
If only everything could be frozen where it was on 9/14 and all business deferred to the new Congress and the new President! It needs to be kept as far from the hands of Bu$hco as possible, and I think both sides now realize that.

I'm economically challenged so I don't know. Is this crisis as acute as we are told (remember Iraq's WMDs)? Remember too that those who are pulling the bailout handle the hardest are those who will most gain by Paulson's specious "plan."

BREAKING ON CNN 8:30AM

Urgent call for bailout


Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke stepped up their campaign for a $700 billion bailout of the nation's financial systems, saying immediate action is needed for the health of the U.S. economy. CNNMoney reports Paulson will tell the Senate Banking committee that quick passage of the bailout is needed to "avoid a continuing series of financial institution failures."


http://www.cnn.com/


They are SCREAMING for a quick bailout! Fuck 'em! Here is the only situation I can imagine where a quick bailout is needed:





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Blue Meany Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. If Liquidity is the Problem rather than the collapse of banks
why doesn't the govt. just get into the business of loaning money secured against equities or marketable assets to banks, and loaning money directly to businesses that actually produce and employ people.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. They already are doing that. Everytime you read the dumped money into the markets
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 08:51 AM by HamdenRice
what they are saying is that they opened a lending window, accepting securities as collateral.

$180 billion on Thursday barely kept the markets from freezing up, but it worked.

It's so dire that the central banks of Europe, Japan and the US have had to open lines of credit to each other.

The bailout is a designed as a quick fix that nevertheless provides longer term solution.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
34. I think presenting the bailout as proposed on one hand, vs. calamity on the other
is a false dichotomy.

Capitalist: "The house is on fire! Your two choices are to put me in charge, or else lose your home."

Taxpayer: "Well, I believe I will form a bucket-brigade and put it out with the other taxpayers; you are the same person who caused this mess!"

Capitalist: "You just don't understand economics at all. Your choices are to pay for my golden parachute or else starve. THINK QUICK!"

:silly:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
35. i never use an atm that doesn't belong to my bank.
and i'm retired, so i have no employer.

i'd like to see a new and better america rising like a phoenix from the ashes of this economy.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. One stark reality: YOUR bank account is a "loan" from YOU to your bank.
So the credit relationship in question is one of you extending credit to your bank (your deposits) which your bank then attempts to invest in order to garner a profit.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. and that loan is insured by the government,
your point? :shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Umm, *WE* are the government. It's insured by the TAXPAYERS, not some third party.
My point is that you don't insulate yourself from the credit market by only using your own bank.

"i never use an atm that doesn't belong to my bank."

:hi:
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #38
41. the op was making a point about using the atm from a bank other than your own...
Edited on Tue Sep-23-08 11:28 AM by QuestionAll
and that was the point i was responding to.

but you're saying that none of us would be able to access any of the funds in our own accounts by any means, that all of our checking and savings accounts would be set to zero- is that it?

because if it's just using ANY atm's that would be problematic- that also wouldn't be a big problem, as there are plenty of other ways for me to get cash from my account.

:hi: :hi: :shrug:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #41
46. Hmm actually yes, that is a possibitily
look at Argentina, all accounts were frozen in place for a year or so at one point
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
50. at least everyone would be in the same boat.
nt
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #37
45. You have less than 100K in the bank?
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. in any one bank? yes.
i'm guessing that's the case for the VAST majority of americans.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #49
53. So let me ask, what happens when the FDIC runs out of money?
this is possible when and if WAMU goes by the way
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-24-08 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. then we're all in the same boat.
nt
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
39. Yes, we're caught between a rock and a hard place
However the consequences of a bailout are far more severe than simply letting Wall St. collapse. If we let Wall St. crash we will see an event comparable to the Great Depression.

However if we go through with this bailout, no matter if we provide for more oversight or not, we will set off a chain of events that will lead to a perfect economic storm that will swamp not just our economy, but our government and country as well, making the Great Depression look like the best of times.

First off, with a trillion plus bailout, our debt load is going to increase to the point where it is 72% of the national gross GDP. This will trigger a downgrade in US Treasury Bonds, the instruments of financing our debt. When these get downgraded, we will not be able to take on any more debt, period. That means no funding for any government spending. No funding to help people out, no funding for infrastructure, no funding for peoples' salaries, etc. etc. on down the line. At least during the depression we had the capability of funding our government and spending our way out of the Depression. If this bailout goes through, our government will collapse due to lack of funding.

Secondly, this bailout will inject nearly a trillion dollars of liquidity into the market, weakening the dollar severely(it's already dropping due to just the threat of a bailout) and cranking inflation even further. This is basic macroeconomics. Furthermore, such a huge debt load will also burden the dollar, weakening it further and again, cranking up inflation. Double inflation whammy for you and I to deal with. Then let's say the worse comes along and the government decides to print its way out of debt. Can you say post WWI Germany hyperinflation? Do you have a wheelbarrow?

There are no good solutions to this mess. However just because that's the case doesn't mean we need to be panicked into a move that will be worse for us in the long run. Yes, doing nothing will lead us into another Great Depression. But a bailout will destroy our government and our country. Besides, in the wake of depressions, the financial sector is regulated, the scoundrels go belly up, the weak are culled out of the financial sector, and more money is spent on the real economy.

I for one would rather see another Great Depression than the alternative, which is the destruction of our economy, government and country.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:56 AM
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40. k+r
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 02:02 PM
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51. Pure bullshit.
Doing nothing now will only save us trillions of dollars.
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