This is Your Nation on White Privilege

[Indigo Blue]

Headlined on 9/16/08:
This is Your Nation on White Privilege

by Tim Wise (Posted by Siv O'Neall) Page 1 of 2 page(s)


For those who still can’t grasp the concept of white privilege, or who are looking for some easy-to-understand examples of it, perhaps this list will help.

White privilege is when you can get pregnant at seventeen like Bristol Palin and everyone is quick to insist that your life and that of your family is a personal matter, and that no one has a right to judge you or your parents, because “every family has challenges,” even as black and Latino families with similar “challenges” are regularly typified as irresponsible, pathological and arbiters of social decay.

White privilege is when you can call yourself a “fuckin’ redneck,” like Bristol Palin’s boyfriend does, and talk about how if anyone messes with you, you'll “kick their fuckin' ass,” and talk about how you like to “shoot shit” for fun, and still be viewed as a responsible, all-American boy (and a great son-in-law to be) rather than a thug.

White privilege is when you can attend five different colleges in six years like Sarah Palin did (one of which you basically failed out of, then returned to after making up some coursework at a community college), and no one questions your intelligence or commitment to achievement, whereas a person of color who did this would be viewed as unfit for college, and probably someone who only got in in the first place because of affirmative action.

White privilege is when you can claim that being mayor of a town smaller than most medium-sized colleges, and then Governor of a state with about the same number of people as the lower fifth of the island of Manhattan, makes you ready to potentially be president, and people don’t all piss on themselves with laughter, while being a black U.S. Senator, two-term state Senator, and constitutional law scholar, means you’re “untested.”

- snip -

And finally, white privilege is the only thing that could possibly allow someone to become president when he has voted with George W. Bush 90 percent of the time, even as unemployment is skyrocketing, people are losing their homes, inflation is rising, and the U.S. is increasingly isolated from world opinion, just because a lot of white voters aren’t sure about that whole “change” thing. Ya know, it’s just too vague and ill-defined, unlike, say, four more years of the same, which is very concrete and certain.

White privilege is, in short, the problem.


http://www.opednews.com/articles/This-is-Your-Nation-on-Whi-by-Tim-Wise-080916-307.html

[Ohio Joe]

1. K&R - nt

[Captain Hilts]

2. Yes, there is white privilege. There's also penis priviledge and height priviledge. nt

[Crazy Dave]

4. But....

What about nice rack and cleavage privileges :woohoo:

[Captain Hilts]

5. In some settings, yes. But not usually in politics or the workplace. nt

[Crazy Dave]

8. At work over the years I've seen a lot of the prettier women...

...get higher pay, promoted faster and get more leniency than the other women in the same office who were considered non-attractive or over weight, etc. This is the first time in a general election though where you hear people like Limbaugh say "we're the ones with a babe on the ticket".

[Romulox]

13. LOL. Turn on ANY morning news program.

Dozens of bimbos with a smattering of mimbos. All selected for their journalistic abilities no doubt. :silly:

[HughBeaumont]

15. CNBC, for instance.

Many of the news teams here and in other places look like second marriages: salt n pepper-haired male anchor in his late 40s - early 50s . . . and the cupcake.

[Captain Hilts]

22. 'News' is showbiz. nt

[here_is_to_hope]

20. "Tits! We got tits"....OMFG! n/t

[qwlauren35]

70. you've GOT to be sh*tting me!

If you really think that cleavage doesn't count in the workplace then you are blind as a bat.

And if you don't think that a pretty face and a pair of legs aren't political currency, then help me understand how Sarah Palin got on the McCain ticket.

[Romulox]

3. Today's events prove that CLASS privilege is the predominant feature of modern America.

Socialism for the rich in this country, dog-eat-dog for the rest of us.

A poor man is worth nothing in modern America.

[Captain Hilts]

6. Hey, we don't have classes in the US!!!

[Romulox]

7. I do believe the overwhelming emphasis on race is designed to derail any discussion of class.

[Captain Hilts]

11. YES! That is abso-fuckin'-lutely correct. LOW INCOME get screwed. TRUE!

FDR: At least we knew we were rich.
ER: And that we didn't earn it. Born on home plate and it's like we hit a double!
FDR: Not quite, you shouldn't have fallen asleep during that Yanks-Cubs World Series game...
ER: Well, you know what I mean...

[Vanje]

23. Discussion of race IS discussion of class

!

[Romulox]

25. Nope. That's absolutely wrong. Substituting race for class is a shell game

that benefits those with money and power, and makes it appear as if workers have more in common with their overlords than their fellow workers, merely because of a shared skin color.

[Vanje]

26. Who said, "substituting"?

[rebel with a cause]

51. There is classism and there is racism.

Sometimes the two overlap, but mostly they co-exist in this country. You can be white and a victim of classism, but you can be Black, Latino, American Indian and other ethnic groups and be a victim of both racism and classism. Of course there are wealthy people who are identified as members of a minority group and they could not be considered a victim of classism but a victim of racism under certain circumstances. A wealthy white person cannot be considered a victim of either.

A discussion of racism does not/should not derail any discussion of classism since the two can be either tied together or seen as two separate problems, and that in itself can be a discussion. The truth is that a poor white man often sees himself above those of different ethnic groups because of the color of his skin, and the wealthy (and even middle class) see themselves above the poor. This makes them similar in their idealism but one does not cancel out the other. They are two separate problems and which one is more problematic is debatable.

What I think is that I am poor, I know what it feels like to have people look down on me and treat me as an unequal person. But I can dress up and go where no one knows me and be treated differently. I have a high education and have been told that this sets me apart from the rest of the poor population and that it puts me above those who share my financial status. I don't know about that. I do know that my children are of a different ethnic group, and they cannot change that. No matter how well they dress, no matter how much education they have they will always be seen and judged by the color of their skin and their features that are different from the white population. So does this fact put racism above classism, or is the fact that white people suffer from effects of classism what makes it more important than racism? JMHO

[El Pinko]

77. Classism is not the main problem. Economic class oppression is.

I really don't give a crap is some rich fuck treats me like crap because he perceives me as poor.

But I do give a fuck that rich fucks and their bourgeoisie stooges act in unison to use their power in the voting booth and the boardroom to make sure that my pay stays low, the number of decent jobs for my class stays scarce, and my bargaining power stays minimal.

Economic independence is the ONLY true power in a democracy, and a huge swath of America has been systematically robbed of that over the last 3 decades.

Many of those whose standard of living has gone down have been minorities. Even more have been white.

It is crucial that the whites who have lost standing are educated enough to know that it is the wealthy elites who have engineered their impoverishment, and not blacks, via affirmative action, or immigrants stealing their jobs.

[Karenina]

100. AND that their racism holds the system in place.

:hi:

[Kind of Blue]

79. Wow! That was fuckingly beautifully put!

[Number23]

83. Excellent post, Rebel. But I don't know why you bother

Please see next 600 posts beneath yours braying that there is no white privilege in this country and that classism is the only problem in America.

[rebel with a cause]

97. I know I throw pearls before the swine. (biblical)

but if only a few get the meaning, it may help. Yes I know that some are only concerned with what affects them and do not want to understand what hurts others and helps them in some ways. It is like the history taught in our schools. Children are taught about all the great white fathers who 'made' this country, but have little time spent on the native people that were persecuted/killed so their land could be stolen from them, or the African slave and the Chinese workers brought here to do the labor for this building of a nation. I personally don't believe we can understand the good in ourselves unless we also are aware of the bad we have done. This goes for individuals as well as countries. JMHO

[qwlauren35]

71. Class vs. Race

Classism is a HUGE problem in America. However, there have been countless credible studies done that indicate that two Americans of the same economic class, one black and one white, are treated drastically differently in nearly every aspect of their lives.

For my entire life, I have heard of an American Upper Class, including Old Money and New Money, an Upper Middle, a Middle, a Lower Middle, a Working Class, a "Lower Class"... and an "Underclass".

Anyone who can't see the brick walls between Underclass and Middle Class, or Middle Class and Old Money is just plain ignorant.

[slackmaster]

9. Or in our high school

[spoony]

18. It is impossible to hit a nail squarer than that.

[El Pinko]

10. un-kick, un-rec.

Most white people do not enjoy the kind of privilege the Palins have, not by a long shot. And millions of uneducated whites in the south, Appalachia and the rust belt are in dire straits.

Funny how it's taboo to make broad generalizations about minorities, but it's okay to bandy around the ludicrous notion that ALL whites (or all men, or whatever) are somehow magically "privileged".




"Thanks for the cup of white privilege, sir, may I have another?"


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/us/02cars.html?ei=5090&en=caf7ec348adbce4d&ex=1301634000&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1221835161-5SFI9u3JUwkIK0E4VtaIEQ

Homeless living in cars try to keep it secret

[Captain Hilts]

12. That's very true. nt

[slackmaster]

14. Thank you El Pinko for posting the reply I was struggling to formulate but couldn't get together

:toast:

[Karenina]

16. You completely discount the "AT LEAST I'M WHITE" factor.

THAT is the wall that must be penetrated.

[spoony]

17. wtf?

You're telling me those impoverished people are saying that to themselves? Or someone is saying it to them? Or it's helping them somehow?

[Karenina]

19. OMFG!!!

Just, for a moment, IMAGINE to whom that might be said.

[El Pinko]

78. Oh come now, thinking "at least I'm white"...

...that's what keeps white homeless warm at night when they are sleeping on a grate in their own filth.

Why, that alone is enough to warm the cockles of any cracker homeless heart, don'tcha know!

And poor white single mothers/fathers slaving away as busboys and shelf-stockers for shit money,

why the thought that they are white makes the mac & cheese go down easier, and keeps the cold wind from whistling through the holes in their kids' sneakers.

Ain't it great being white?

:sarcasm: :eyes:
:sarcasm: :eyes:
:sarcasm: :eyes:
:sarcasm: :eyes:
:sarcasm: :eyes:

[Karenina]

82. No, El Pinko, NOT "thinking" those words...

Rather SPITTING THEM OUT into someone else's face. I suppose you've never had that experience.

[Indigo Blue]

21. Your reply sounds pretty defensive. For a better understanding of White Privilege,

... you might want to read this:

White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4038018

[El Pinko]

73. Yeah. It's "defensive"

No matter that the very concept of universal "white privilege" is fallacious and a tool of the bourgeoisie designed to prevent the issue of class disparity in this country from ever being addressed, by way of keeping proles of different races at each other's throats forever...

[Karenina]

102. Racism prevents that discussion.

The white proles, identifying with the "elites" (and YES, racism is part and parcel of their myopia) who vote against their common interests with people of colour because they don't want to be identified with people of colour do have their role...

[butterfly77]

28. Too bad...

that they still will vote for McCain...

[El Pinko]

74. Yes, sadly and many of them will do so because of posts and concepts like this...

What better way than a post like this to make it perfectly clear to poor and working-class whites that the democratic party is antagonistic to their interests.


It's sad, because I doubt Obama himself would endorse such an inherently RACIST concept.

[Indigo Blue]

75. Explaining White Privilege (Or, Your Defense Mechanism is Showing)

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters

[El Pinko]

76. I'm aware of ALL the arguments in the piece.

Because they are generalizations and do NOT necessarily hold true for all communities and demographics, they are fallacious, as is the concept of "white privilege".

Just because whites ON AVERAGE enjoy better standards of living, better treatment from teachers, you name is, does NOT mean that ALL WHITES benefit from those things. They simply do not.

And the same goes for "model minorities". NOT all Asians are smart, nor do they ALL benefit from the perception that they are.


There are exceptions to every rule, and in the case of the bourgeoisie construct of "white privilege", there are MILLIONS of exceptions.

[Hekate]

107. Obama has pointed this out and says he gets it. I think he does. Still, there is truth...

Still, there is truth to the notion. It serves those in power to keep the country divided along racial lines, suspicious of one another, fearful that if someone from another group gets ahead, that their own group will lose out. It serves those in power to have people believe that it's all a zero-sum game.

Hekate

[guitar man]

24. "Rich" white privelege

I'm white but I fail to see where I've been very priveleged, I'm just a beat down working class dog hanging on by a thread like a lot of us in the non-priveleged classes these days, regardless of our color. :(

[Karenina]

27. Does security follow you around

at the home improvement store?

[guitar man]

29. they have

when I was in the middle of re-pluming my bathroom, I was crawling around under the house in grubby clothes and hadn't shaved in a few days, and yes, they followed me around. They may have thought I was homeless, I don't know.

[superduperfarleft]

30. You could've shaved and showered.

People of color don't have that option when it comes to unequal treatment.

[guitar man]

31. with my bathroom torn apart?

I only have one bathroom in my little house, so when it's down, it's down. Pipes all ripped out and the water turned off.

[superduperfarleft]

38. That's not what I mean.

Let's say a magic bathroom fairy came and gave you a place to shower.

Then let's say a magic money fairy came and gave a black family a million dollars.

So if you're cleaned up and the black family were now millionaires, who do think is most likely to be followed when they enter a store?

[Karenina]

32. Now you're being disingenuous.

[guitar man]

33. whatever

the fact I was white damn sure didn't keep security from following and taking a hard look at me, if you don't like it, too damn bad.

[Karenina]

35. An anecdote...

An aquaintance, high-power corp type with all the accoutrements, was waiting for a cab in front of his 5 star hotel. A "good ol' boy," barely glancing at him, thrust car keys into his hand and issued threats, dare he scratch it while parking. Those keys landed in the median strip of the busy boulevard just as the taxi arrived. :rofl:

[guitar man]

36. LOL

that's a good one :D

[Karenina]

37. Hang with me here for a moment...

as I'd really love for you to understand the myriad ways race trumps class in America. When my acquaintance told the story he was spitting tacks. Even his coup de keys was not enough to mitigate the psychic red palm print on his face. Our side-splitting, tear-rolling laughter was the balm that finally soothed. He DAILY endures cabs that refuse to pick him up, ladies clutching their purses in the elevator of a SECURE BUILDING, the "who's HE and what's HE doing here?" whispers...

Riddle me this. What do they call a cardiologist in Georgia?

[guitar man]

39. what? nt

[superduperfarleft]

40. I'll give you a hint.

It starts with a "N."

[Karenina]

41. Just another...

[guitar man]

44. that's sad

my wife's OBGYN that delivered my daughter is an African American woman. Best doctor I've ever seen in action, bar none, she really knows her stuff.

You know, I would never deny that non-white people have to put up with stuff that white people take for granted, I think any thinking person can see that. But, unless you have stood in an individual's shoes, you just don't know what kind of personal hell that person has been through in their life no matter what their color. I've been through a ton of shit, some I briught on myself and a whole lot more that I didn't, and have the scars to prove it.

So if I bristle a little at being called priveleged, please forgive me, life has made me that way.

[Karenina]

52. It isn't YOU personally...

It's the DYNAMIC. And when you, as a white person, see it CLEARLY, you will doubtless see the man behind the curtain.

[guitar man]

55. but what to do about it

that's the 64 million dollar question I guess. An acquaintence of mine was going on a while back about "why do the black people still think they're downtrodden and how long is it going to take for them to get over it and blah blah blah."

I told him that "the biggest mistake we made as a country after slavery istelf was taking 100 years between the emancipation proclamation and the 1964 civil rights act, allowing a people who had been so cruelly abused to languish in discrimination, jim crow and second class citizenship or worse for a century. So if you want to know *how long*, maybe think another 100 years after 1964 at the least, if not longer. The problem took centuries to create, it's not just going to go away overnight because you want it to"

he shut up and moved on real quick

[Karenina]

81. Please read this follow-up piece

and let's talk further...

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters

[Gormy Cuss]

58. GTRMAN, you get it.

You just don't agree with the term "white privilege." Maybe "non-white disadvantage" would work better for you, because as you have witnessed with your own words and anecdotes there is an added barrier based on race and race alone.

As someone who grew up in a very low income neighborhood and very low income for half of that time, I certainly never felt that I had any advantage over the Nigerian doctor in my community nor the African-Americans who owned businesses, or who were on the city council or in the legislature but I bet that they were keenly aware of the difference in the level of respect they received for their success compared to the whites of similar stature. I lived in a very white community and these families stood out -- I knew some of their children from school and believe me, they had stories galore like Karenina's anecdote of the car keys.

[Romulox]

48. You CONTINUE to get that joke wrong. It's very frustrating, especially since you're "educating" us!

"Riddle me this. What do they call a cardiologist in Georgia?"

This is not the "joke", (such as it is--I don't think it's funny at all)

You could very well call a cardiologist in Georgia, "Dr. Wong."

The "joke" is "What do they call a BLACK cardiologist in Georgia." Without the word "black" the punchline makes no sense.

[Number23]

84. I wondered about that!!

The "joke" is "What do they call a BLACK cardiologist in Georgia." Without the word "black" the punchline makes no sense.

I was confused as hell by that joke and I'm black! AND from damn Georgia!!!! :rofl: :rofl:

[holybarcode]

108. Well, not -all- high-power corp types are pricks...

:shrug:

[JetCityLiberal]

34. Bullshit

:puke:

stupid bullshit at that.

[Hannah Bell]

105. I've been followed by security at various stores, who knows why.

But if I were rich & powerful - whatever my color - I could get the assholes fired.

Go into high society in another country - then talk to me about my white skin privilege.

This is bullshit for the middle classes.

[fishwax]

43. no, the privileges of class are another issue entirely

[EFerrari]

42. #10.

[happydreams]

45. Not all whites are privileged. Just to clarify that point.

[rebel with a cause]

53. But they are in a way.

Just because of the color of their skin they are in the position of being a member of the majority. You want poor whites to get in a lather, just say that one of the minorities are going to be the majority in the near future. There is no outrage like that seen when this happens.

Trust me I have lived as a poor white for some time now, but due to whom I married I had the privilege to live for a while as a member of an ethnic group. It is a totally different ballgame. The color of your skin being white does give you a privilege that you do not understand unless you don't have it. The privilege is the way you are looked at by the police, service people, store personnel, and so on. And I have been in stores where I was treated less than polite because of my class, but the racism thing is a totally different.

[happydreams]

56. I am,by definition, a poor white and I don't "get in a lather...". You just made a

sweeping generalization that stereotypes an entire group of people. Pardon me if I question your powers of observation.

[rebel with a cause]

59. Perhaps you don't and I don't either.

But there are many that do, and my generalization was not meant to mean that every single poor white person in the world. For you to take it as such is a bit presumptuous since I am a poor white person, I would also be among those mentioned.

My observations came from living among the population and seeing the reaction to the news that Latinos will soon be the top minority and will then be the majority. I have also seen the reaction of some people who worry that Barack being elected president will give the AA population a way to be over the them. This is a fear of losing the white privilege, perhaps.

Does every poor white person react in this way, of course not. And some of the people reacting this way are not poor by a long shot. So rest easy. Every time I see a fellow white person I don't think: "Oh there goes another racist." I am a misanthrope and I distrust humanity on the whole, but I judge people individually. Sorry I offended you.

[happydreams]

64. I never said that you thought all whites are racist. You need to cool

out and think before you write. nuff said

[rebel with a cause]

65. I'm cool. How about you?

Well, actually I am more than cool. I am sick of being tired and tired of being sick. In fact, I am sick as a dog, and one of my dogs is not feeling too well either. Enough said. Okay. :hi:

[Greyhound]

46. Get a fucking clue. It is about class, first, last, and always. n/t

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

47. This Same Ridiculous Theory Was Posted Yesterday. It's No Less Silly Today.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4025665&mesg_id=4033256

[Manchurian]

49. He posted this in response to all the hate and ignorance

Explaining White Privilege (Or, Your Defense Mechanism is Showing)

by Tim Wise

Sigh.

I guess I should have expected it, seeing as how it's nothing new. I write a piece on racism and white privilege (namely, the recently viral This is Your Nation on White Privilege), lots of folks read it, many of them like it, and others e-mail me in fits of apoplexy, or post scathing critiques on message boards in which they invite me to die, to perform various sexual acts upon myself that I feel confident are impossible, or, best of all, to "go live in the ghetto," whereupon I will come to "truly appreciate the animals" for whom I have so much affection (the phrase they use for me and that affection, of course, sounds a bit different, and I'll leave it to your imagination to conjure the quip yourself).

*snip*

Of course, the original piece only mentioned examples of white privilege that were directly implicated in the current presidential campaign. It made no claims beyond that. Yet many who wrote to me took issue with the notion that there was such a thing, arguing, for instance that there are lots of poor white people who have no privilege, and many folks of color who are wealthy, who do. But what this argument misses is that race and class privilege are not the same thing.

*snip*

In other words, despite the notion that somehow we have attained an equal opportunity, or color-blind society, the fact is, we are far from an equitable nation. People of color continue to face obstacles based solely on color, and whites continue to reap benefits from the same. None of this makes whites bad people, and none of it means we should feel guilty or beat ourselves up. But it does mean we need to figure out how we're going to be accountable for our unearned advantages. One way is by fighting for a society in which those privileges will no longer exist, and in which we will be able to stand on our own two feet, without the artificial crutch of racial advantage to prop us up. We need to commit to fighting for racial equity and challenging injustice at every turn, not only because it harms others, but because it diminishes us as well (even as it pays dividends), and because it squanders the promise of fairness and equity to which we claim to adhere as Americans.


*snip*

As for poor whites, though they certainly are suffering economically, this doesn't mean they lack racial privilege. I grew up in a very modest apartment, and economically was far from privileged. Yet I received better treatment in school (placement in advanced track classes even when I wasn't a good student), better treatment by law enforcement officers, and indeed more job opportunities because of connections I was able to take advantage of, that were pretty much unavailable to the folks of color I knew growing up. Likewise, low income whites everywhere are able to clean up, go to a job interview and be seen as just another white person, whereas a person of color, even who isn't low-income, has to wonder whether or not they might trip some negative stereotype about their group when they go for an interview or sit in the classroom answering questions from the teacher. Oh, and not to put too fine a point on it, but even low-income whites are more likely to own their own home than middle income black families, thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families.

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can't take for granted.
Let me share an analogy to make the point.

Taking things out of the racial context for a minute: imagine persons who are able bodied, as opposed to those with disabilities. If I were to say that able-bodied persons have certain advantages, certain privileges if you will, which disabled persons do not, who would argue the point? I imagine that no one would. It's too obvious, right? To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles. And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied.
That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

*snip*

In other words, despite the notion that somehow we have attained an equal opportunity, or color-blind society, the fact is, we are far from an equitable nation. People of color continue to face obstacles based solely on color, and whites continue to reap benefits from the same. None of this makes whites bad people, and none of it means we should feel guilty or beat ourselves up. But it does mean we need to figure out how we're going to be accountable for our unearned advantages. One way is by fighting for a society in which those privileges will no longer exist, and in which we will be able to stand on our own two feet, without the artificial crutch of racial advantage to prop us up. We need to commit to fighting for racial equity and challenging injustice at every turn, not only because it harms others, but because it diminishes us as well (even as it pays dividends), and because it squanders the promise of fairness and equity to which we claim to adhere as Americans.

It's about responsibility, not guilt. And if one can't see the difference between those two things, there is little that this or any other article can probably do. Perhaps starting with a dictionary would be better.

[Number23]

85. Fantastic post

Thanks for the link

[spoony]

87. Crying "racist defence mechanism" when called on a stupid argument

is most unbecoming. As to the bolded part:

"thanks to past advantages in housing and asset accumulation, which has allowed those whites to receive a small piece of property from their families."

This is...pathetic. It's just bad. He's acting like people still have property that they pass down for hundreds of years or something. Like we're all living in our great great grandparents cottage. It's stupid. Poor white people DON'T OWN LAND any more than poor black people. We RENT shitty apartments or MORTGAGE houses, etc.

[Karenina]

89. You might want to check some stats

before making such assertions. Mr. Wise has STUDIED THEM extensively.

[spoony]

90. Mr. Wise has PROFITED FROM THEM extensively, I'll buy that

But as I look around, I see no Tara of the O'haras. I see people who don't own their houses, cars, or much else, and especially did not inherit them from their privileged white ancestors.

[Karenina]

92. Attacking the messenger?

:shrug:

The point is, privilege is as much a psychological matter as a material one. Whites have the luxury of not having to worry that our race is going to mark us negatively when looking for work, going to school, shopping, looking for a place to live, or driving for that matter: things that folks of color can't take for granted
.
Let me share an analogy to make the point.

Taking things out of the racial context for a minute: imagine persons who are able bodied, as opposed to those with disabilities. If I were to say that able-bodied persons have certain advantages, certain privileges if you will, which disabled persons do not, who would argue the point? I imagine that no one would. It's too obvious, right? To be disabled is to face numerous obstacles. And although many persons with disabilities overcome those obstacles, this fact doesn't take away from the fact that they exist. Likewise, that persons with disabilities can and do overcome obstacles every day, doesn't deny that those of us who are able-bodied have an edge. We have one less thing to think and worry about as we enter a building, go to a workplace, or just try and navigate the contours of daily life. The fact that there are lots of able-bodied people who are poor, and some disabled folks who are rich, doesn't alter the general rule: on balance, it pays to be able-bodied.

That's all I'm saying about white privilege: on balance, it pays to be a member of the dominant racial group. It doesn't mean that a white person will get everything they want in life, or win every competition, but it does mean that there are general advantages that we receive.

snip

In other words, despite the notion that somehow we have attained an equal opportunity, or color-blind society, the fact is, we are far from an equitable nation. People of color continue to face obstacles based solely on color, and whites continue to reap benefits from the same. None of this makes whites bad people, and none of it means we should feel guilty or beat ourselves up. But it does mean we need to figure out how we're going to be accountable for our unearned advantages. One way is by fighting for a society in which those privileges will no longer exist, and in which we will be able to stand on our own two feet, without the artificial crutch of racial advantage to prop us up. We need to commit to fighting for racial equity and challenging injustice at every turn, not only because it harms others, but because it diminishes us as well (even as it pays dividends), and because it squanders the promise of fairness and equity to which we claim to adhere as Americans.

http://www.redroom.com/blog/tim-wise/explaining-white-privilege-deniers-and-haters

[Bill McBlueState]

50. I wonder if anyone can provide some references

Some posters respond to any mention of white privilege as though it's a new concept cooked up last week by some left-wing blogger. But my understanding is that it's a mainstream sociological concept. What are some books people could read if they want to learn more about white privilege?

[rebel with a cause]

54. Yes, it is a sociological concept that has been studied in depth.

Right now I cannot think of any books on it, but I have studied it and read articles on it, but that has been years ago. I have to get off now, but when I have time, and if no one else supplies them, I will try to find some and will post them. I have already posted several things up thread about this, using my personal experience rather than what you have suggested. Will be back later, I am sooooooo late now. Stayed here too long.

[rebel with a cause]

60. Here is a list of sites I pulled up by using a search engine.

There are also books mentioned on these sites for those who are interested.

http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html

http://www.worthpublishers.com/newcatalog.aspx?search=White+Privilege&isbn=1429206608

http://www.csudh.edu/dearhabermas/whitepriv01.htm

http://www.assumption.edu/news/newshp/profiles/farough.html

http://mscyprah.newsvine.com/_news/2008/09/15/1868706-is-america-still-in-denial-of-white-privilege

http://www.assumption.edu/news/newshp/profiles/farough.html

[Indigo Blue]

68. Recommended Reading

http://www.timwise.org/ (Click on 'Reading list')

[Moochy]

103. those posters are willfully ignorant

Same ones who deny class exists and spew bullshit about American exceptionalism.

[happydreams]

57. Identity politics......

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics

Identity politics is political action to advance the interests of members of a group whose members are oppressed by virtue of a shared and marginalized identity (such as race, ethnicity, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or neurological wiring). The term has been used principally in United States politics since the 1970s.



The early history of identity politics has yet to be formally addressed as a subject in its own right in full-length scholarly literature. It was first described briefly in an article by L. A. Kauffman<1> who traced its origins to the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee (SNCC), an organization of the civil-rights movement in the early and mid-1960s.

The origin of the term itself, however, is obscure; although SNCC invented many of the fundamental practices, and various Black-Power groups extended them, they apparently found no need to apply a term. Rather, the term emerged when others outside the black freedom movements—particularly, the race- and ethnic-specific women's liberation movements, such as Black feminism— began to adopt the practice in the late 1960s. Perhaps the oldest written example of it can be found in the Combahee River Collective Statement of April 1977, subsequently reprinted in a number of anthologies,<2> and Barbara Smith and the Combahee River Collective have been credited with coining the term; which they defined as "a politics that grew out of our objective material experiences as Black women.<3>

The best-known aim of identity politics in the United States has been to empower the oppressed to articulate their oppression in terms of their own experience—a process of consciousness-raising that distinguishes identity politics from the liberal conception of politics as driven by individual self-interest. Identity politics may thus focus on diverse forms of identity: race, ethnicity, sex, religion, caste, sexual orientation, physical disability or some other assigned or perceived trait (see below for a more complete, but still non-exhaustive, list). Some groups have combined identity politics and Marxian social class analysis and class consciousness—the most notable example being the Black Panther Party—but this is not necessarily characteristic of the form.

The practice of identity politics naturally entails some degree of separatism. Theorists of identity politics have argued passionately that oppression shapes the consciousness of the oppressed such that oppressed people usually internalize their oppression. Only in the atmosphere which obtains when members of the oppressor group are not present to enforce unjust definitions of equality, justice, and right, and the norms that derive from such definitions, can the oppressed begin the difficult work of consciousness-raising, the first step toward the organization of the oppressed to struggle for a liberation defined in their own terms. For the majority of groups embracing this perspective, separatism is only a means to an end. A minority of practitioners, however, define separation, both organizational and even territorial, as both means and end. This can lead to confusion, since advocates for a single, majoritarian national identity are also referred to as "nationalists." Bear in mind that while some practitioners of identity politics envision a separate nation-state to defend the human rights of those bearing their identity, this is not the only logical conclusion that can be reached from the perspective of identity politics.


Debates and criticism

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Indigo Blue]

63. Why don't you say that to the author:

Tim Wise, author of 'This is Your Nation on White Privilege'


http://www.timwise.org/

[Kind of Blue]

80. Thanks for the link.

[rebel with a cause]

66. White privilege has nothing to do with racial tension or

Blacks wanting special privileges. It is about the way we look at each other in this country and about the fact that those of the majority (ruling party) has a privilege not alloted to other groups simply because of their status in the majority (color of their skin). The same can be said in other countries. In India, in th Caste system gives those with lighter skin privileges because of it. In some Latin American countries you can be "whitened" by wealth and power/buy certain features and racial identity is very different than it is here. In Haiti's history at one time whites were evil, mulattoes were traitors and those with pure African heritage were proud and looked down on the others.

White privilege is just a matter of what our society has created. It is something that to understand is a way of walking in the other person's shoes in order to understand them. It is a way to understand the world around us, and what part we play in it.

[rebel with a cause]

72. coming back and reading this, I would edit if I could

but I typed it too quickly, went back and edited one part causing other words to be misspelled. Oh me, sometimes it just does not pay to do three things at once. Hopefully you get the gest of what I was trying to say. corrections: In India the Caste system gives those with lighter skin privileges. In some Latin American countries you can be whitened by certain features, you cannot buy those features although your money and prestige can whiten you as far as their society is concerned.

[Indigo Blue]

67. FYI - About Tim Wise:

Tim Jacob Wise

Tim Wise is among the most prominent anti-racist writers and activists in the U.S., and has been called, "One of the most brilliant, articulate and courageous critics of white privilege in the nation," by best-selling author and professor Michael Eric Dyson, of Georgetown University. Wise has spoken in 48 states, and on over 400 college campuses, including Harvard, Stanford, and the Law Schools at Yale and Columbia, and has spoken to community groups around the nation. Wise has provided anti-racism training to teachers nationwide, and has trained physicians and medical industry professionals on how to combat racial inequities in health care. He has also trained corporate, government, entertainment, military and law enforcement officials on methods for dismantling racism in their institutions, and has served as a consultant for plaintiff's attorneys in federal discrimination cases in New York and Washington State.

Wise is the 2008 Oliver L. Brown Distinguished Visiting Scholar for Diversity Issues at Washburn University, in Topeka, Kansas: an honor named for the lead plaintiff in the landmark Brown v. Board of Education decision. In 2005, Wise served as an adjunct faculty member at the Smith College School for Social Work, in Northampton, Massachusetts, where he co-taught a Master's level class on Racism in the U.S. In 2001, Wise trained journalists to eliminate racial bias in reporting, as a visiting faculty-in-residence at the Poynter Institute in St. Petersburg, Florida. In 2005 and 2006, Wise provided training on issues of racial privilege and institutional bias at the Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute (DEOMI), at Patrick Air Force Base. From 1999-2003, Wise was an advisor to the Fisk University Race Relations Institute, in Nashville, and in the early '90s was Associate Director of the Louisiana Coalition Against Racism and Nazism: the largest of the many groups organized for the purpose of defeating neo-Nazi political candidate, David Duke.

Wise is the author of White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son, and Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White. A collection of his essays, Speaking Treason Fluently: Anti-Racist Reflections From an Angry White Male, will be published in the Fall of 2008, and his fourth book, Between Barack and a Hard Place: Race and Whiteness in the Age of Obama, will be released in Spring, 2009. He has contributed chapters or essays to 20 books, and is one of several persons featured in White Men Challenging Racism: Thirty-Five Personal Stories, from Duke University Press. He received the 2001 British Diversity Award for best essay on race issues, and his writings have appeared in dozens of popular, professional and scholarly journals. Wise has been a guest on hundreds of radio and television programs, worldwide.

Wise has a B.A. in Political Science from Tulane University, where his anti-apartheid work received global attention and the thanks of Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu. He received training in methods for dismantling racism from the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond, in New Orleans. He and his wife Kristy are the proud parents of two daughters.


http://www.timwise.org/ (Full Bio)

[spoony]

88. So, basically, his entire career is this. Explains a lot.

[Karenina]

91. Attacking the messenger is a tactic

we've grown quite weary of these past few years. Run along now.

[spoony]

93. ...that you have employed regularly

to discredit other posters. Run along indeed. I don't take propaganda at face value from people who profit from it.

[Karenina]

94. Another unsubstantiated charge. Are you done, yet?

:shrug:

[KG]

62. i have no doubt that my experience in america has been enhanced by the color of my skin.

[MellowDem]

69. I disagree with the whole premise...

Sure, being white in America CAN be part of a privilege, depending on a whole host of things, or it can not. America is FAR too complicated of a place to make the idiotic generalizations that many make when it comes to race. It's not that black and white, no pun intended. Not all whites receive benefits from being white. You might as well say that all black's lives are enhanced by their privilege of affirmative action. After all, ALL African Americans are chosen for such reasons as their race... Obviously bullshit, just like the central premise of this book.

Furthermore, books like this do nothing, that's right NOTHING, when it comes to ending inequalities that exist today. They DO succeed in baiting people on race and serve as a way to steer away from any real discussion of race. They also help to reinforce identity politics. If you're white, you have these privileges, if you're black, you have these obstacles. This kind of a discussion always ends in the same place; as far away from a solution as possible. It does not delve into what race even is, what its context and history is, how it has transformed into what it is today, or how to finally eliminate race (and with it racism) from society.

Instead, it embraces race, sensationalizes it, uses it as though it were a real and significant classification of human beings, because it is in the author's eyes. And it also treats its audience like they are children. Is using Palin a great way to point out white privilege? No, it's a really shitty one. Palin is a fucking governor of a state, with that comes a lot of privileges. Palin is fairly wealthy, with that comes another whole set of privileges. Hell, even the fact that Palin is a woman comes with SOME privileges. So to attribute the way Palin is treated just to her race is juvenile, false, and intentionally misleading if they author is at all intelligent. The world has more gray areas than that. Not to mention, many many people look at those things about Palin and find her to be a terrible person and utterly incompetent. If Palin was accepted 100%, then his argument would have a semblance of traction. Palin is accepted in the some circles, the same circles that often hate that other white woman, Hillary Clinton, which shows that race is only a part of the equation, and not necessarily even that great of one.

My real problem with such arguments about race is the right or wrong, black or white nature of the argument that reminds me so much of the conservative thought process. The dumbing down, "simplification" that is this book is worthy of Ann Coulter's stamp of approval. It only serves to cause disunity and increase perceived differences among "races" than anything else, which is exactly what the right would want.

What really scares me is that the leaders of America's discussion on race are virulent assholes (aka Jesse Jackson) who have an archaic view of race and want to increase racial identity rather than reveal the lie that is race. So far, they have succeeded unchallenged. People are encouraged to act a certain way because of the color of their skin. Hell, it is now complimentary to embrace your own "race", as if race and culture were the same thing! For many people, they think it is! The one drop rule, racial identity, all promoted and encouraged by today's leaders of race discussions. And discussing race is an utterly useless exercise, considering that when you discuss race, your race is looked at to deem how valid your opinion is or if your opinion should even be warranted.

Oh, and I would love to see a book written about Asian Privilege, or Jewish Privilege, they would have just as much weight as this piece of shit book on the discussion of race. I am so glad Obama is running the campaign the way he is. He is doing wonders for race relations. Just look at the counterexample of Clinton, who ran ON her gender. She did shit for women's rights, and those who most virulently were accusing others of sexism and pointing out some over-generalized male privilege, like how the author of this book points out white privilege, ended up being the most divisive, sexist, narrow-minded group who are now trying to get McCain elected due to the fact that he put someone with a vagina on the ticket.

In short, this list sucks and is for the non-critical thinker.

[Kind of Blue]

86. I disagree with your premise...

"Furthermore, books like this do nothing, that's right NOTHING, when it comes to ending inequalities that exist today. "
-Yeah, but it's a start. I don't think books like this are written for the lofty aim to end inequalities right now, today, but to further the understanding of inequalities that you so rightly say are complex. I don't think the abolitionist movement or the suffrage movement sprang out of nowhere with no discussions or literature. Hey, how about that piece of literature Martin Luther nailed on the church door? To me, movements come from a hodgepodge of ideas from people with the same goal in mind.

"This kind of a discussion always ends in the same place; as far away from a solution as possible."
-It may not be your way to a solution but it surely is considered a first step in many countries such as South Africa, Liberia, Chile, Canada, Germany, and even right here in the United States, in creating Truth and Reconciliation Commissions.

"It only serves to cause disunity and increase perceived differences among "races" than anything else, which is exactly what the right would want."
-Cause it? Disunity has always been part of our social landscape. Please let me know where discussion has led to Increase in perceived differences because I've found just the opposite. I think the right wants us not to discuss it so that they can continue their manipulation of it. Remember how Obama's "race" speech, concerning such perceived differences, basically quelled the uproar after the Rev. Wright fiasco?

"What really scares me is that the leaders of America's discussion on race are virulent assholes (aka Jesse Jackson) who have an archaic view of race and want to increase racial identity rather than reveal the lie that is race."
-I agree that the word "race" is used incorrectly. I don't like some of the things Jesse Jackson has said about Jews in the past, or Obama most recently, but he owns up and apologizes for being a ignorant dunderhead at times. I don't understand your take on him as a "virulent asshole." On balance, to me, he's also done a lot of good things.

"Hell, it is now complimentary to embrace your own "race", as if race and culture were the same thing! For many people, they think it is!"
-Agree with you there, race & culture are not the same thing. But can we agree that people mean culture when they say race? If so, don't you think it's okay to embrace one's culture? I came here as an immigrant child from Africa with my parents back in the late 60s. I was so dismayed and humiliated when the only reference to blacks in school was always about slavery. Thank God my parents were knowledgeable enough about the achievements of people of color, pre and post slavery. It's cool to embrace culture, yours and mine.

"The one drop rule, racial identity, all promoted and encouraged by today's leaders of race discussions."
-Well, I'm not exactly sure what this means or what leaders you're talking about. Maybe Wise? As far as the one drop rule, there's a host of bi-racial, multi-racial people who I know, who embrace all sides of their ethnic makeup. It's people who don't like it that make a big deal of it. I don't think there's anything wrong with racial identity but racial superiority/supremacy is a whole other topic.

"And discussing race is an utterly useless exercise, considering that when you discuss race, your race is looked at to deem how valid your opinion is or if your opinion should even be warranted."
-That's not true. I mean, I wouldn't take the time to read your post and respond if I wasn't interested in what you thought. Just because I don't agree with a lot of it doesn't mean your opinions are useless.

"I am so glad Obama is running the campaign the way he is. He is doing wonders for race relations."
-Agreed and he definitely doesn't run away from the topic, as you continuously suggest that we do.

"Just look at the counterexample of Clinton, who ran ON her gender."
-No way. Palin runs on her gender.
"She did shit for women's rights, and those who most virulently were accusing others of sexism and pointing out some over-generalized male privilege, like how the author of this book points out white privilege, ended up being the most divisive, sexist, narrow-minded group who are now trying to get McCain elected due to the fact that he put someone with a vagina on the ticket."
-Yeah, it became divisive but look how nicely Dems made up. I think right now it's the Repubs who are divided and obviously running scared because it's getting harder to use "race" to divide the country any more. We got to keep talking about it, among other things. I can just imagine what the world would be like today if people who believed in freedom shutdown discussions because differing opinions and contrary ideas came up.

[MellowDem]

95. I can see all your points

And I was most definitely a little angrier when I wrote this. It probably isn't as bad as I think it is. I am glad that you have a measured and critical way of looking at race, it's just that there are many who do not.

[Kind of Blue]

99. I hear what you're saying and

know what you mean :)

[Better Believe It]

96. "White Privilege" Is Not The Problem

It's yet another diversion from the real problem we face in American. The fundamental problem and conflict in this society is about class and who actually runs this economy and government.

It's sure not working class folks .... and notice the politicians in this election rarely use the term "working class". You see, all of us are really members of the "middle class". It seems we have a "classless" society in America! We are either rich, the middle class or poor .... but the working class does not exist.

That's what they would like us to think.

But we'll figure out what class we are really in as this economic crisis of capitalism unfolds.

[rebel with a cause]

98. National Classism is the problem of these times and is a big problem.

which is growing worse. But white privilege has been with us for a long time. Discussing white privilege does not take away from the class problem, if anything discussions of it could in fact bring us more together. If those of us who benefit from the white privilege took note of it, agreed that it existed and then stood up to it and demanded its end, then race relations would truly move forward and the masses of the working class would perhaps come together as it never had before.

Think about it, how do those in power keep that power, they keep us divided. What better way to keep us divided than to set up divisions that show us how different we are. Discussions of what is does not divide, the divisions are there already and need to be exposed for what they are.

A slight example of this follows: When my daughter and I go in a store, the clerks almost always look at me for direction in our purchases although my daughter is clearly the one in charge. I am in one of those electric scooters and dependent on her. She also has more money than I do, because she works and I am on a small disability pension. She is not a child, she is an adult woman. But I am white and she is not, and the differences made are very noticeable. Now imagine if she was not my daughter, and this happened. You don't think there would be resentment toward me as well as toward the clerk. There would and should be.

My daughter is made invisible/unimportant/ignorable in this instance because of her ethnicity and that is wrong and she is not alone. But when it comes to being followed in a store and looked at suspiciously because of her ethnicity, then the rules change because she becomes very visible. When we start understanding how this is happening and make it a practice that we don't allow it to continue then this will change and then classism will be the problem for all of us. But as it stands, classism is seen as a white problem because the other groups cannot be a part of it as long as they are subject to the racism that still exists to keep many of them members of the underclass.

If you think classism is the most important thing there is going, that means that although you are probably right it also means that you are probably also white. Because as long as we place the 'others' in our society in this place where they are not equal and they are not a part of our world, then we cannot expect them to fight for our rights that are still mostly denied them. JMHO

[Karenina]

101. WOOHOO!!!!

:yourock::woohoo:

[Hannah Bell]

104. The US is being globalized: take a look at corporate boards. The whole idea of "white privilege"

only makes sense in a context where the power structure is almost exclusively white.

But it's not anymore. The global power structure is Chinese, it's Japanese, it's Indian, it's Latin american, & yes, it's African. and having a white face, increasingly, doesn't mean shit, & sometimes less than shit.

Meanwhile, twits like wise (his job = "anti-racist activist," does that pay well?) continue the business of instilling white guilt & black resentment.

Look at who the US ruling classes are marrying: money is the international language.

Fifty years of this nattering about "racism" & "racial privilege". Wake up & smell the globalist coffee.

[Porschenut1066]

106. Bank Scam came from Wall Street?

Wa-Mu Credit Card Scam (Predatory lending) 09/23/08
Wa-Mu as the ailing Washington Mutual Banking group is known has started a new method to make more money on their credit card business. Yes, it involves raising interest rates on those least likely to be able to afford to repay them to levels up to 37% but even worse is their manipulation of the persons credit limit in a way that allows the bank to charge extra fees and costs.
Let me give you an example. I was sent a Wa-Mu credit card application with a $1500 dollar limit on it and thought that since I had recently been through a company failure that caused me to declare personal bankruptcy I could use a new credit card with a small limit to re-establish my credit rating.
Well they issued the card and I started to use it. It had a high interest rate of 18% but I thought that I just had to live with that until things returned to normal. I had put about $1200 on the card and was paying more than the minimum each month, thinking that this would show what a super customer I was and that my personal bankruptcy had to do with me personally guaranteeing several company loans that the company in the end could not pay rather than me not paying my bills on time.
Before the bankruptcy I had a credit rating of 780 which for all intents and purposes is perfect.
Here comes the scam.
Without notice Wa-Mu reduced the credit limit and immediately began charging over limit fees, account fees, and late payment fees on the account. I called Wa-Mu who informed me that this was standard practice and that the bank was within its rights to cut the credit limit on an account and then charge the customer for being over limit even though the customer was not notified and did not exceed the original credit limit amount. Further I was send a bill by the bank that stated the drop in credit limit, the increase in the interest rate being charged had jumped to 37% and the added fees and costs. I noticed that the amount of payment the bank wanted was so small that Wa-Mu would be able to charge an over limit fee forever since the fee was greater than the payment. This means that for people who pay the minimum payment each month they would progressively get deeper and deeper in debt. In fact they would never be able to pay off the credit card.
As it happens, I paid the account balance in full and canceled the account. But I can imagine the problems that this sort of bait and switch can cause to ordinary people who are not able to pay off the amount in full and can only pay the minimum payment. Basically this scam is a method by which certain groups are trying to take us back to the past and establish a form of indentured servitude or as they called it in the south slavery.
I am outraged that this is happening here in the USA. I am sure the banks that are doing this will have their lawyers deflect any action taken by the ACLU or anyone else. Just be warned that our freedom is not certain and that there are people in this country who are attempting to destroy our rights under the constitution. This is just one scheme that is going on, I wonder how many other banks are doing the same? Wall Street perhaps?