Look folks, I know many of you (and I) are annoyed at the bailing out of the

[nadinbrzezinski]

Wall Street folks

But here are some points you may want to consider on this

Further failures will lead to even more unemployment... that means less people to consume and a contracting economy

Oh and for you personally... the system collapses, you will not be able to cash a check... or take money out of an ATM not your own

It comes down to the way banks lend money to each other, and if they don't trust each other, they will not continue to do this. As is, we are very close to this point.

Getting credit will be almost impossible for the average joe

So yes, I am not happy that this is going on... but do you get it? WHY this needs to be stabilized?

[lame54]

1. But, what if this is just Bush's last handing out of money to his friends...

and he's going real big - and we are sitting there witnessing the huge theft

it will be all over for us

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. This is not that. The markets are on the edge of failing because

of derregulation ... why all those regulations were put in place after the last time they did that

This is not something the republicans wanted or needed... at least not UNTIL AFTER the election

It is going to stick to the like Hoover did to the Great Depression... and no way to pass the ball on this one

They have been trying HARD to stop this from happening...

So far they have tried to do what the Japanese did after their collapse... that didn't work. They KNOW doing nothing led to 1929... so they are trying the next thing... create a fund and hope it works. If it doesn't... trust me things will get so bad it is not even funny

And right now any clear thinking American is blaming the republicans, even if folks truly do not understand the nuts and bolts of this

[kath]

92. "any clear thinking American" --- ah, that's the rub. Clear-thinking Americans are

in the minority, I fear.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. I hope you are wrong

but some of the talks I have over heard are not nice for the home team

Then again I laid into a young investment specialist in training yesterday... boy that was fun.

[CountAllVotes]

6. exactly

the final great thievery before he leaves office. This time he's going for the whole sh*tload, lock stock and barrel.

It will be too late in January. The election will be long over by this time and Obama will be stuck holding the bag of tricks, well what is left in the bag that is and you should know it will be mighty slim pickins. :mad:

[DJ13]

3. Its economic blackmail

First were told the wealthy & the corporations need to pay less taxes or else there wont be any jobs.

Now were told that all those corporations that paid less taxes must be bailed out by the taxes paid by everyone else, or there wont be any jobs.

Im tired of this bullcrap.

Let them ALL fail.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. I hope you like cardboard

[DJ13]

11. I refuse to be a tool of corporate america

Were going to be damaged no matter what.

At least take them down with us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. How about NOT taking you or them down

and punishing those responsible in due time?

If this crashes it is going to hurt you far more than you can imagine

So once again, hope you like cardboard

[DJ13]

17. Its too far gone

Look at the recent panic, and the stock market is STILL above 10,000.

What do you think will happen when it breaks below that?

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. No it is not too far gone

it is not doing well... but it is not too far gone YET

Now if you enjoy cardoard, do cheer... if you'd like your paycheck to be impossible to cash, do cheer

And I am one NOT to defend the blue dog policies... I despise them as much or more as many here.. but I understand that a collapse is not in anybody's interest... and cheering is STUPID

[readmoreoften]

74. What? Are they going to be reasoned with? Are they suddenly going to see the light?

As far as I'm concerned this can go two ways: fast or slow. Fast is always better. Reality is always better.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. You regulate, you don't reason.... why we need to win this election

and get the margins necessary.

I know this process thing is difficult to get

[readmoreoften]

111. You might want to rethink talking down to people.

Yes I know what a process is. I also know what election fraud and media management is. If Obama is permitted to be elected, I'm not sure he's going to be permitted to do anything much. Don't you get it: who is going to enforce regulation? They are above the law. Banking is far too complicated to be sexy to the average person. If they've gone so far as to destroy posse comitatus and install infantry on US soil under executive guidance--this month--why on earth are they going to let Obama regulate? I am all for regulation. I just don't see how that is going to happen.

All this "we should do this" and "we can't let them do that" is a waste of electronic type. We're doing all we can to get Obama elected and the only question is "how can we stop them?" not "we must stop them." Procedure. HOW.

Clealy if Obama wins and is permitted to make changes this great problem is solved. The question is what if he is not and why would they allow such a thing.

[PsN2Wind]

30. "punishing those responsible in due time

We've all seen that "due time" comes very slowly, if at all for those that rip off the great unwashed.
Now the admin is talking about buying worthless loans from these grifters. I doubt they'll come around a buy from me that phony Rolex a bought at the flea market.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. It took ten years after the crash

but some folks did face the music

Too bad the wheels of justice move that slowly

:sarcasm:

Street justice would be so more faster and efficient and chiefly civilized

[CountAllVotes]

16. Let them all fail is right.

They have dug their own graves so let them lie in them IMO.

Lost money? Well too damn bad. The stops have got to come eventually, better now that in January when the new President comes in to office! :think:

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And you will be lying right by them

this is why this thinking is quite stupid

Sure, let me shoot my foot... won't hurt a bit

[CountAllVotes]

54. look, this is all about YOU

I don't give a damn about a bunch of crooked Wall Street banks. Failing would do them and many others I can think of good!

The greed must stop.

Best to nip it right in the bud where it hurts. :dunce:

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[readmoreoften]

75. A lot of people are so close to bottom that bottom doesn't look that much different.

People are desperate for something to change. There is no rule of law. There is no way to "rein the greedy in". Of course, a collapse WILL benefit someone: the same people it always benefits. The IMF are waiting with open arms and they don't seem too ruffled by all this.

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. Trust me, we haven't hit close to bottom yet

find some photos of the great depression, or any ciudad perdida in Mexico, or a favela in Brazil... that is what bottom looks like

As to IMF absolutely, why we need to fight tooth and nail to avoid an IMF austerity plan

[readmoreoften]

110. The question is: how do we fight the IMF? Especially with the new badass Northcom infantry.

Favela is horrific. The 1 billion people who live under $1 a day will not be affected by this. I will be hurt. No doubt. I'm not so sure that subsistance farmers in Mexico having their land stolen from US corporations would be hurt if a collapse were real. But if the IMF comes in, it's not really anything other than a coup in disguise.

[LeftishBrit]

102. It's all about EVERYONE

The Wall Street failure of 1929 led to the Great Depression, with severe poverty and suffering for huge numbers of people, not just in America but through much of the world. Massive numbers of people were jobless, hungry, homeless. In Europe, it contributed to the rise of the dictators, and thus ultimately to WW2.

[fascisthunter]

9. yup... and that needs to change....

it also means, we need to go after those who created and benefited from this mess. On edit... I don't want a collapse....

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Right now we need to deal with this, punishment has to come

but to punish they also need to build cases, that does not happen overnight

[fascisthunter]

19. of course not...it will take time

... but what bothers me right now, is the fact that I do believe this is what some really want in order to privatize everything. This country is getting to a point where our commons are being parceled off to pay off the debt we are in...

Grover Norquist: "I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

[nadinbrzezinski]

21. Remember in 1929 many committed suicide, (we may still see that)

but others were prosecuted even a decade later

[fascisthunter]

26. Remember what Grover Norquist said.....?

"I don't want to abolish government. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."

I think this is part of that plan....

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. It is not part of the plan...

though it may become part of it if they decide to go for an IMF style austerity plan

This is a consequence of deregulation...

[fascisthunter]

33. I hope you are right....

because we tax payers are running out of assets to pay off this country's debt, and this country just doesn't export product like it did before.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Well you know part of the solution is to dust off Keynes, fully

that also means some more deficit spending, but on the bright side, in the medium to long term that means better revenues for the feds and a fixed infrastructure

[fascisthunter]

35. and a rebirth of socialism for all for average Americans

we will all need each other to pull through this mess...

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Just be careful when going from one utopia to the next,

though I agree with you, we need a mixed economy

THings like health care, energy, basic services, education... have to be in the hands of the state.. not in for profit

There are some things that the private sector does better (build cars)

But we also need to get away from this so-called free trade... and reindustrialize the country, and get away from that right to work shit

Aka the labor movement has to be given full rights to organize...

I could go on... on the structural changes that I think this little crisis gives us a change to push for... but we need to push for them... my fear is an IMF austerity plan, which I might add, most DU'ers have no clue what that means. Lived through them... not fun... they make the last eight years look like fun times

Oh and as to utopia, both capitalism and socialism are truly utopias... and neither has actually ever been implemented 100%... and both Marx and Smith are doing summersaults.

[fascisthunter]

51. Sorry... I Never Explain myself fully

I believe too in a mixed economy... but hopefully this will bring back the need for social programs (socialism with a small "s"). Hopefully this includes socialized healthcare.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Here you go, an extensive response to Mercurio

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4031877&mesg_id=4032417

[fascisthunter]

56. oh man.... very well done

he's... well, nevermind. He's on my ignore list.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. There are days I wonder why I even do this

need to go pick copy of disaster capitalism and send to campaign and tell them THIS IS WHY YOU DON'T go IMF on us

[fascisthunter]

60. you do it because you care...

and you do it, to find others who care... and hopefully then the country can heal/change.... and you do a fine job.

[DJ13]

15. On edit... I don't want a collapse....

I dont want one either, but one will happen with or without more bailouts.

All the bailouts are doing is saving a select few GOP friendly executives before it falls apart.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. It is not saving anybody

the Fredie and Fannie execs are NOT getting their golden parachutes.

That is for starters

And it is ALREADY falling apart

[DJ13]

23. Merrill Lynch boss to get $11m payoff after nine months' work

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/sep/18/merrilllynch.executivesalaries

Oh some are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. And you are missing the FULL PICTURE

This is not a payout to GOP loyalists. THose who HAVE A CLUE and understand how this works realize this is not a good thing... the collapse, worst case scenario, is the collapse of the US Economic system... which in plain english means you cannot use your check. cash becomes worthless, and you'd better learn how to eat cardboard

Hey, on the bright side the debt will be wiped out... MAYBE

[a la izquierda]

97. Which pisses me off, because my dad works...

for ML and may lose his job.

[MercutioATC]

41. Not yet...just wait 'till they sue for them.

They'll get them.

(not a "fact", just my opinion....and we'll never hear a word about it)

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. You'd hear about it

oh never mind'

You are right, let the WHOLE BANKING SYSTEM collapse, that is what we need

:banghead:

:sarcasm:

[MercutioATC]

46. Gimme a better long-term solution. (and I never advocated a collapse of the WHOLE BANKING SYSTEM)

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. That is what it reads

and here is what I'd do

Give them the loans.. no, I cannot let AIG fail

WITH STRINGS ATTACHED... as in 5% APR. I make some money on it

Remove all their heads... and part of the strings, we get to look at books and prosecute folks for malfeseance and fraud

RE-REGULATE the whole market

Raise tarrifs to make producing goods in the US as expensive or cheap as China... and punish companies that move abroad

RAISE corporate taxes to at LEAST 60%

Raise top 1% taxes to 70%,,, what they were under JFK

GIve tax breaks to companies that bring factories back... with a limit

GIve an absolute right to unions to organize

LIVING WAGE, not minimum wage, living wage

Nationalize Heath Care, single payer system

WPA program (I need investment banks for that partly)

Free public education up to college, PhDs

Oh and here is one nobody mentions, by law if you are the CEO you cannot make more than 40 times the salary of your least paid worker.

Repeal corporate personhood

Get out of NAFTA et al... as free trade, ain't

And that is for starters

[MercutioATC]

57. OK...point by point....

1) We're getting 11.4% on the AIG loan...plus 79.9% ownership. (that's part of the existing deal)

2) We get to make board member changes if we wish. (that's part of the existing deal)

3) We agree on tariffs.

4) I don't have the expertise to know the appropriate level for corporate taxes. I'd start at a given percentage and offer incentives for things like domestic employment and research/production is certain fields...and geographic incentives for economically depressed areas.

5) I think 70% is a little steep. I think there's a number closer to 50% thatl'll work.

6) Agreed on tax incentives for jobs.

7) AGREED on rights for organized labor.

8) Agreed on living wage.

9) I prefer expanding current programs like the Federal Employees' Health Benefit Program (FEHBP) to a single-payer system, but that's a different discussion...agreed on access to health care/health insurance for all.

10) Agreed on the WPA program...undecided at to exactly what's absolutely needed to do that.

11) Free education K-12, federally subsidized (both needs-based and merit-based) above that.

12) I still support corporations as legal entities.

13) Agreed on our current trade agreements. They need to be based on a lot more factors (I'm 90%+ in agreement with Howard Dean's views on what makes a good trade agreement)

Whew!

Hope that clarifies my views a bit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Yes, they are far more conservative than mine

and good, we are getting a better deal with AIG...

[MercutioATC]

66. We're getting a better deal IF it turnd around. If not, we've bought a pig.

AIG market cap is $7.23B.

Current breakup value is roughly $40B.

We "paid" $85B for 80% of that.

If AIG returns to what it was 2 years ago, we'll make money. Based on current values...even from a risk/benefit standpoint...we overpaid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. From analysts, they need this money short term

that said, it is their internal practices that led to this... why I am all for prosecuting people for malfesance

[MercutioATC]

69. Prosecution is great, but we'll recover virtually nothing.

They "need" this money because if they don't get it they'll owe lump sum payments when they get downgraded...payments they don't have the cash to back. AIG will still be no more solvent than it is now...other than the fact that it has $85B of our money to burn.

[Common Sense Party]

103. You want to raise corporate taxes to 60%+???

Say goodbye to all jobs, then. Who will stay in business at that tax rate?

Think through the consequences.

[wanpete]

4. we are just taking on more bad debt and rewarding those that caused the problem. The system

will correct itself sooner or later. This appears to be a way to stave off the now and add a little time to later.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. The system needs massive re-regulation

we need to get away from NAFTA< CAFTA , et al

And this little crisis will force us to do that

[readmoreoften]

76. This will force nothing. They're fascists.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. And your point? They were fascists in 1932 too

or did you miss the attempted coup against FDR? Oh wait, most people don't know about it

Some of the same actors involved by the way... or to be fair the grandfather one of one of our current actors (prescott bush)

[readmoreoften]

107. Please, since you care about history and credentials so much...

I have two Masters degrees: one of which is in 20th century US/Latin American relations which is about as sordid as it gets. I also have a Ph.D. with one of my areas being the communications technology of covert operations.

Technology has made all the difference. Same fascists, with some new faces added to the mix. In '32 there wasn't satellite wiretapping, microwave crowd control, blackbox voting and so forth.

There are always assassinations. This means little other than that these people have been fucking with elections for a long time. They've been perfecting their techniques. We've been relying on the power of moral outrage.

The question remains: how. are. we. going. to. stop. them.? Especially with any sort of revolt off the table.

[MercutioATC]

5. Actions have consequences. This has to play out to correct itself.

The Fed "rescue" is an artificial resolution, and it won't work. It's a temporary fix, at best and it sets a horrible example (I'd say "precedent", but we did this (on a much more limited basis) for the S&Ls).

There is NO painless solution. It's gonna hurt.

Do we want to amputate the leg and move on or do we want to spend decades dealing with gangrene...and eventually lose the leg anyway?

[nadinbrzezinski]

10. If this does not work. it will make 1929 look like a walk in the park

and the consequences to you and me will be incredibly harsh

[MercutioATC]

25. All empires fall.

It's kinda ironic that "The land of the free and the home of the brave" will end with a whimper.

We've voluntarily accepting a cancer...and we have been for quite a while. As a young country, we think like adolescents...it's all about immediate gratification and avoiding pain. I don't think we're going to beat this train, though...

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Ok give me solutions, and let it all fall does not work

how would YOU fix this mess?

I know how I would, but how WOULD YOU

And letting it all fall is not the right answer

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. Thought so

thank you for your silence

[MercutioATC]

39. Geez, gimme me a minute. Look below.

[MercutioATC]

38. Like I said, it's gonna hurt.

I'd let it run its course without any government intervention for the corporations. I'd use the bailout money for a second "New Deal" infrastructure/research/social service program to employ people and strengthen our real fundamentals. Corporations may be legal entities, but they're not people. Help the actual people and let the mismanaged "legal entities" die.

It'd be absolute chaos. It'd hurt a LOT. It'd essentially be an amputation.

Legislation to provide "New Deal"-type employment...including replacing services that would be lost when the companies that currently provide these services fail. Legislation to freeze foreclosures for, probably, 2-3 years. A serious reduction in foreign economic and military aid. Emergency expansion of services for the needy. Substantial regulation of financial markets...and those are just some of the immediate requirements.

I'm teetering on the edge of this becoming a dissertation. I'll keep it simple for now and just throw this chunk of idea out for consideration.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. You need BANKS to run the money for a new deal kind of a program

GEEZ even FDR got that

Why they regulated the living daylights out of it, and didn't let it go completely

[MercutioATC]

42. We have plenty of banks/credit unions that will be left solvent.

What level of banking are you concerned about?

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. The same level of banking needed by the federal reserve to fund

silly things like a WPA kind of a program...

:banghead:

Never mind... you are right, let the full fucking thing collapse... I truly like cardboard... and not being able to cash a check

[MercutioATC]

49. I'm wasn't an economics major, but...

...what, specifically, are you concerned about? If we have the federal government cutting the checks and local banks/credit unions for the average person to cash their checks/borrow money, what's the issue (in the immediate term)?

(on edit)

Hey, look...I can see you're getting frustrated with this. I'm fine with suspending this dialog for a while and if you and I get the chance to exchange ideas via PM that's be great. I'm no expert on the economy, but I don't think you and I are as far apart as you seem to think right now. Gimme a PM sometime if you feel like it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. How banks do business, you need to cash that check

overnight banks give money to each other or rather loan it, making their balance sheet balance

All banks do this, from the credit union to Morgan Chase

If banks don't trust each other, and don't loan the money, then you don't have the money to give to you... unless it is just your bank.. and that is a PITA... and can drive liquidity away

And I wasn't an econ major either... I was a history major.. why I have been screaming for years now that the fundamentals of the economy are those of 1929 and why this is not surprising.

[MercutioATC]

61. If it was al federally-backed (at least as an interim plan) where's the "trust" issue?

I'm not talking about federalizing the banking system, just providing a federal guarantee of individual funds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. The bank to bank system is not guaranteed

and if lets say CiTI does not trust oh I don't know BOA to pay up the 480 you took out of their ATM yesterday... well they will not allow you to take money out of BOA ATMs any more

I know, I used a bank that is in good shape (we think) and one that we know might not... but the example works regardless

Yes YOUR funds are guaranteed up to 100K, until after WAMU goes, that is the fear... no money mostly... but if you can ONLY do business at your bank that alone will slow things down, especially if you go visit the family and there is no branch for your bank in their town

[MercutioATC]

68. Under the current system, you're absolutely right.

I don't think we're talking about anything resembling the current system.

If the deposits were federally guaranteed upon deposit (and we DO have the technology to do that) there would be no practical issue. If necessary, we could codify it.


Problem gone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. I am talking about the here and now

and the funds are federally insured

[MercutioATC]

72. The funds are FDIC insured...I was speaking of assurance of individual

funds for the purpose of converting them to cash (or transfer).

Everybody's accounts, up to $100k, are FDIC insured. However, many people have to wait 2-5 business days to access the money they deposit via check. I'm just suggesting that we have the technology to verify authenticity of funds and can have them federally guaranteed (up to a certain limit, if necessary) for immediate dispensing.

Unless I misunderstand your proposed complication, this would seem to solve it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. That could in theory be done... and at that point why bother with cash

cred sticks come to mind from all kinds of sci fi novels...

Problem with them... the black economy becomes really hard to use

[MercutioATC]

88. You bring up the one reason why I support the continued use of cash.

The science fiction "credit sticks" are a better idea in almost every way, but I believe in preserving a way to conduct business that's not traceable. Sure, one can barter, but I think actual hard currency is an important part of any free society.

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. I write sci fi, been trying to wrap my head around how to keep the black

economy going for years... when I find a way... will write it.

[MercutioATC]

98. Let me know. SciFi has always been the genesis of progress.

Any time I want to know what to expect in 10 years, I reread Heinlein :)

[CountAllVotes]

27. what about everyone else besides "you and me"

don't you care about anyone but yourself and your "parents portfolio". Must have taken quite the hit eh?

Well boo hoo.

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. I have also said in other threads how to meidum to long term

fix this... in case you have missed it

By the way... in case you are missing it... if the economy fails... you and I will not be posting on DU... we will be too busy trying to scratch a living

But hey personal attacks are fine

So tell me bright one... HOW EXACTLY WILL YOU FIX THIS IF YOU WERE GIVEN A CHANCE?

[readmoreoften]

78. There is no fix. Only exacerabations.

It's like when you start waking up from a dream you don't want to wake up from. You try to stay asleep a little longer, but it doesn't work. Reality breaks through.

Unless we can FORCE compliance with the rule of law, we've got squat. And we don't own the police or the military and our voting system is largely a sham. I'm not so sure why they wouldn't steal this election if they've stolen all the others.

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. Conflating will not work here

that said, they will TRY to steal the election... that is a given.. it's republicans after all

But you've got to realize that they have not violated much... the rules that were in place after 1929 have been removed... why I am having such a sense of deja vu

[readmoreoften]

89. Yes but they were the ones who removed those rules.

This just seems like disaster capitalism at work to me and those trying to 'stop the collapse' are also the disaster capitalists. It seems to me like we're being delivered to the IMF. Seems to me that the oligarchs are trying to reclaim some power from the burgher class. Laborers and peasants die regardless.

I'd love a sort of uber-Keynesian world where good business people abided the law and citizens were smart and informed and involved like some kind of post-war infomercial. But those days are over, not to mention built on continuing racism (i.e. the flow of cheap brown bodies.) Mass communications in the 20th century transformed everything. Research and development in neuroscience and defense sealed the deal. Those who aren't manipulated through neurolinguistic programming and the repetition of images--those who are painfully aware aka 'informed'--are powerless to do a damn thing.

The questions is: if socialism "doesn't work", and Keynesianism is bound to be slowly subverted into Friedmanism because the greedy don't stop at 'comfortable', then what we are left with is a Friedmanite system with the DREAM of the potential of a mixed economy (if only the majority of the wealthy could be a LITTLE good.) And those seem to be our options: Friedman or Friedman in Keynesian drag or a little bit of Keynes if you're good then back to Friedman.

The real problem is not only is there no system that is *utopian* but there is no system that isn't *brutal.* Perhaps something called Revolutionary Social Democracy will be invented where the proletariat and petit bourgeois rise up to crush the fascists and allowing democracy, freedom of assembly, and rational business development again while retaining the military apparatus to keep the media and other freedoms for the people.

But I don't see how substantial change can come otherwise.

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. I'd rather something be done now and not wait for the glorious revolution

seen real civil wars in person... they are nice and romantic, until you have to deal with the crap... as in real life...

And even some of those communist revolutions were not.... (USSR comes to mind)

But then again, I don't want to wait for another utopia to happen, but work in the here and now with what I have

That said, Friedman IS a reaction to the 30s, what you will see now is a reaction to friedman

It may very well be the kind of mixed economy we know works

Oh never mind... perhaps I should just throw my hands up, hope all collapses and that the glorious revolution will save us all... and lets include some street justice to the mix while we are at it...

:banghead:

[readmoreoften]

106. No one is talking about the glorious revolution. There are no "glorious" revolutions anymore.

You're not listening to what I'm saying. I'm saying that there is no solution emerging on the horizon. You cannot institute laws for people who operate above the law. This is not a problem that has yet been resolved by history and it must be addressed.

You can talk until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't mean that what we "should make them do" will make them do it. Who is going to twist these people's arms? It seems to me that they're a hell of a lot bigger than the Democratic party.

[LeftishBrit]

109. How do you think 'everyone else' is going to cope if the banks are just allowed to fall?

And it wouldn't be just in America either.

I think regulation needs to be much tighter. And some individuals should be punished. But I don't think that punishing the bad guys is worth letting everything collapse; millions living in the street and starving; government programmes collapsing along with everything else; possibly the rise of more Hitlers - with nukes.

I don't think the above is likely to happen, because fortunately there *will* be intervention - but some of the near-apocalyptic suggestions here for essentially pulling down everything and starting again from scratch are scary. Millions would not survive. Ultimately the planet might not.

[wanpete]

12. AMEN. Unfortunately, this is something we are just going to have to go through.

this is a shallow attempt to put lipstick on this pig. I actually believe that this will lead to a more worse situation than we have now. This will not be pretty, and it will not be easy. But I am tired of saddling my kids, grandkids, and great grandkids with the stupidity of todays moneygrubbers.

[Orsino]

116. All government regulation is artificial.

But government still has the responsibility to promote the general welfare, etc.

Yes, some sort of bail-out is absolutely required, though I would agree that the resulting company need not look much like the one being rescued. Let's admit that this is a highly artificial solution, and take the opportunity to regulate the hell out of the industry.

It's hospital life support: not a way we would want to go on living, but necessary for now. Meanwhile, we prescribe medicine and lifestyle changes for the future, so that heroic measures aren't needed again for a long time.

[pokerfan]

44. profits are private; losses are public

Heads they win, tails we lose.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. THAT IS WHY YOU NEED TO REGULATE THE WHIOLE MESS

and extract a pound of flesh from all these loans

I forgot

:banghead:

[pokerfan]

48. shouting is not necessary

[SmileyRose]

65. Well, not at YOU anyways.

But if we all took to the streets and shouted...........

won't happen until Vinings (rich people part of town) begins to look more like Lowery Blvd (bars on all the windows and trash everywhere)

[readmoreoften]

80. Who is going to do this regulating? This is the problem.

We can scream "reform" and "regulation" all we want, but it's as naive as asking them to stop being greedy. Us and what army?

[nadinbrzezinski]

83. Read a book on the great depression.

FDR did NOT run on any of this new deal, regulation thing either

That said, BE READY to take to the streets... or do you feel that powerless? In that case, game's over

[readmoreoften]

91. Did you see the article about Northern Command getting an infantry?

Judging from the escalation of violence against peaceful protestors at this RNC compared to the violence at the RNC in 2004 (I was in NYC at that time) I'd say it's looking like, well, not game over, but rather maybe "game on". Some indications:

1) Northern Command getting an infantry. If this is correct, it is extremely bad.
2) RNC protest organizers charged as terrorists. This would've been unthinkable in 2004.
3) RNC protesors charged with felonies now, not misdemeanors.
4) Expansion of spying this week per Young Turks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. Point by point

1) Northern Command getting an infantry. If this is correct, it is extremely bad.

Been part of the operational plan for years, not that I will defend it, it is bad, but it has been in the Operational Plan for years.. and it became effective when Posse was suspended in 2006 as a last gift from the Neocon congress. Our boys and girls could nix this in the bud by just reestablishing posse, oh never mind

2) RNC protest organizers charged as terrorists. This would've been unthinkable in 2004.

Really? Have you heard pf the Chicago Seven? It wasn't unthinkable or surprising to those who KNOW history.

3) RNC protesors charged with felonies now, not misdemeanors.

See above... the Chicago Seven were also charged with pretty serious felonies

4) Expansion of spying this week per Young Turks.

They expanded it even more? Oh my, I am not surprised... so they have the tech to spy on one of five, instead of one of ten that the Stazi could. We have been warning about this for how long?

Again if you think that a civil war is a nice place, fine by me. I know one is coming, not because of the economy mind you... but I am not looking forwards to it.. again, been there, done that, and there is no glory in that.

[readmoreoften]

108. Point by point rebutted.

1) Northcom infantry. They will not 'reestablish posse'. Democrats as well as Republicans voted posse away. I do not see Congress telling the military that they don't want "intervention" at home. It's not gonna happen.

3rd Infantry’s 1st BCT trains for a new dwell-time mission. Helping ‘people at home’ may become a permanent part of the active Army
By Gina Cavallaro - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Sep 8, 2008 6:15:06 EDT

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/army_homeland_090... /

2) The Chicago Seven were not charged with TERRORISM under the PATRIOT ACT. They were fined and charged with felonies, most of which were dropped. Those in custody now charged (not slandered as terrorists but charged) face a legal near black hole that leaves them open to losing US citizenship (one portion of the PATRIOT ACT) which in turn leaves them open to losing the right to habeus (according to a talk I saw with Bill Goodman from the Center for Constitutional Rights.)

3) The Chicago 7 were LEADERS. The leaders are now being charged as terrorists. The people I'm talking about have been charged with felonies for just walking and chanting and so forth. They were not organizers. This would not have happened in 2004. Maybe "unthinkable" is too strong, but it would not have been as acceptable. The RNC folks were imprisoned for days in 2004. Now it's become weeks. If this downward spiral continues it will most certainly be months soon enough.

4) Expansion of spying has little to do with technology. Bush extended by executive order the rights of individual agents. Not only do they no longer not need a permit, they don't need any approval at all to question your friends, neighbors, and social network or do a physical surveillance if they think you may be involved in drugs or terrorism or an opposition group. They also can infiltrate any group they please--an expanded cointelpro with no oversite.

So let's add it up: (1) infantry on American soil to intervene in times of crisis (2) protest organizers charged with terrorism with possible loss of citizenship and hence no right to habeus corpus (3) protest attendees charged with felony for peaceful assembly (4) federal agents can on their own reconnaissance and with no oversight question the associates, employers, and friends of any citizen they believe to be involved in dissent; they can do physical surveillance of homes and belongings on a whim with no justification to anyone; they can infilitrate opposition groups with no oversight or accountability--this of course is always done, but now it's on the books.

Add to this mix: a national disaster used for the purposes of expanding power behind the backs of the people, the systematic dehumanization of fellow citizens "stupid people who refuse this or that" irrelevant bodies that don't need to be accounted for , contempt for those in a position of weakness (i.e., it's not FEMAs responsibility to provide ice to those without electricity in rural areas or blankets or pillows to evacuees on gym floors, i.e. reports from Bolivar Island of soldiers looting what's left of possessions or commandering private property, i.e. reports from Ike homeless in rural Texas that the FEMA guards who came in and asked devastated residents who had nothing but MREs "Do you know where the restaurant where they're making the free food for us in town?"

Now add this to the mix: Stock market teeters, IMF comes in and "advises" the Bush Administration, and now the fallout for irresponsible corporations is on the shoulders of the dehumanized everyman/woman for the forseeable future. This is not economic solution.

In WWII there were the Allied Powers fighting the Nazis. If the Nazis were successful, who would be left to fight them? That's wouldn't be a glorious revolution that would be surviving fascism. And of course anyone who is forced to fight to survive has to imagine what it might be like to 'win.' But that doesn't make it a glorious revolution. Sure I'd love for Obama to win and direct the country back to sanity. I see no evidence that this will be permitted to happen. Why would fascists permit their own departure from power?

Nihilism is not an option, and reform is not likely to be allowed given the present conditions. It seems that what people normally do in these conditions is flee and make a new home in another nation.

[KoKo]

62. Yeah...what

It's cool they are doing this. After all...there wasn't anything else they could do given the dire consequences....was there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. It is a good question what they could do... but letting it completely go is not

exactly a good choice... and that is the point

[Dark]

71. I think they're trying to buy time.

They know these are bandaids, as more mortgages could go in the toilet. They're hoping America elects someone who can get the economy on track (i.e. Obama)

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I agree with you parrtially... they were trying to hold it off, the disaster that is

until after the election.

What scares me, is that outside observers have actually said that it looks like they don't know what to do.

In reality the plan should include re-regulation.

And also helping the homeowners and rebuilding the economy... but that would be something republicans would never consider... oh wait, a week ago they'd not consider this either

[readmoreoften]

82. I seriously doubt Paulson is waiting for Obama unless its to dump a problem on his lap.

[bamacrat]

77. My thing is...

Companies and right wingers have forever railed against government involvement in business, free market, and call any type of oversight or involvement socialism. Yet any time these things are about to go under (the way of the free market) they run to the government for help, which is very hypocritical and contradictory oh and socialist. Following the philosophy of capitalism, shouldnt AIG etc be allowed to go under and a better company take their place. If I owned a restaurant and had been doing well then started to lose my ass would the government bail me out, no people can eat elsewhere. If a person is about to go bankrupt, can they go to the government for a bailout, no you just lose your house and your credit. It should be one way or another, government involvement and oversight or leave it up to the CEOs and shitty economists?

[nadinbrzezinski]

84. Two things... and people need to understand this

AIG is not a capitalist company... nor are we capitalist... if we were AIG would have never ever gotten that large... something about monopolies

We need to re-regulate them, at the very least bring back all the regulations that worked so well for sixty years after the New Deal... we can start with Glass Steegal...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

93. I hear ya. Only a nihilistic dumbass really believes we shouldn't bail them out.

The important thing is to reinstate regulation and get the Republicans the fuck out of power because every time they get into power they fuck shit up.

[Union Thug]

99. Let it collapse. It's the only way that real, long lasting change will come. n/t

[Common Sense Party]

104. Yeah, it'll be long-lasting change, all right.

But it won't be the good kind.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

100. I get your point,

however, isn't it also financially just as dangerous in the long term for the Feds to keep infusing cash that they don't have into the economy? I don't know a lot about economics but it seems like one giant fucked up situation. I hope Obama can help stabilize Wall Street (tighter regulation) and bring down the national debt at the same time.

[JCMach1]

101. We should have bailed the 'OWNERS' out if possible, not the money masters

in this crisis. That should have happened 12months ago...

I almost have to agree with you now, because it is (basically) too late to do anything else.

Disaster capitalism indeed!

[lligrd]

105. Bend Over And Keep Letting Them Rip Us Off

until they bankrupt us completely or we all go down now seems to be the choice we are being given. To hell with them, I say the patriotic thing to do is go down now, all together. Personal responsibility applies to corporations too.

[marions ghost]

112. Need help analyzing this article from yesterday....

I'm trying to follow this crisis, although I'm not good at economics and live simply on wages only.

I read this article "Scrambling to Clean Up After A Category 4 Financial Storm" in the paper yesterday Thursday Sept 18--by Steven Pearlstein, The Washington Post. READ ARTICLE AT THIS LINK:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/17/AR2008091703834.html

In my local paper it was titled:
"Crisis Signals End To Cheap Credit-- With foreigners no longer willing to back lavish US lifestyles, American households may finally have to stop spending. That would mean recession."

In the article he writes:

"In fact, for most of the past decade, foreigners seemed only too willing to provide U.S. households, corporations and governments all the cheap money they wanted -- and Americans were only too happy to take them up on their offer.

The cheap money was used by households to buy houses, cars and college educations, along with more health care, extra vacations and all manner of consumer goods. Governments used the cheap money to pay for services and benefits that citizens were not willing to pay for with higher taxes. And corporations and investment vehicles -- hedge funds, private-equity funds and real estate investment trusts -- used the cheap financing to buy real estate and other companies."

--snip--

"In the end, however, there is only so much the government can borrow and so much the government can do. The only other choice is for Americans to finally put their spending in line with their incomes and their need for long-term savings. For any one household, that sounds like a good idea. But if everyone cuts back at roughly the same time, a recession is almost inevitable. That's a bitter pill in and of itself, involving lost jobs, lower incomes and a big hit to government tax revenues. But it could be serious trouble for regional and local banks that have balance sheets loaded with loans to local developers and builders who will be hard hit by an economic downturn. Think of that, says Dugger, as the inevitable second round of this financial crisis that, alas, still lies ahead."
-----------------

SO DOESN'T this predict even more suffering for the consumer? So now houses, cars, college education, vacations and health care are examples of consumer OVER-spending?
???????????????????????????????????????

[trotsky]

113. Well said.

At least you tried. :)

[Marrah_G]

114. I don't like it, but I get it.

[natrat]

115. they bail them out, the banks convert to euros(just legalized i think) and we crash anyway

but the junta and cronies survive ok

[Naturalist]

117. You got to be kidding me!

Look, the reason we are in this mess is NOT because they gave loans to people that had bad credit. They are in this mess because they were too GREEDY and convinced people they could afford their HIGH INTEREST LOANS. This is OUR GOVERNMENT, not the COPORATIONS. If anyone needs bailed out, it's the AMEICAN PEOPLE ONLY! Take all this money they are spending on bailing out CORPORATIONS and WAR then pay off the 2nd mortgages and partialy the 1st mortage of AMERICAN CITIZENS who need it, instead of giving the money to CORPORATIONS. You get the same thing! The stupidity of people still amazes me. You always think that CORPORATE WELFARE IS OK BUT CITIZEN WELFARE IS A NO NO. They have you so BRAINWASHED that you can't even see the light of day. I wonder how you got that way hmmmm. Well I bet you have money in the stock market, what ya think. They suckered you real good! Wake up FELLOW CITIZENS who aren't part of this corruption. The people you hear say this is a good thing "we need to do this etc." are your enemies because they are in bed with the rest of these TRAITORS. This is not AMERICA INC! CORPORATIONS can't fight a WAR they can only, if they are so equiped, build weapons, but you are the one needed to man those weapons. CORPORATIONS didn't fight the BRITISH for INDEPENDENCE. When we acheived INDEPENDENCE it was the so called MOM and POP businesses that started this country. They have destroyed most of those with your willing acceptance because you wanted cheaper stuff from CHINA. It's all our fault, it's been our choice because we have either gotten in bed with these crooks because we are greedy, or we have been too complacent about it. Let me ask you one really important question. Do you even think about what your leaving behind for your children or grandchildren? Do you want them to not have any other options but to be part of a society that cares only about MONEY and CORPORATIONS? Do you not want them to have the FREEDOM to run their country? Do you not want them to have the opportunity to own a farm, start a business and be able to compete? Oh and one more thing, just how does this all fit in with your teachings from Jesus? Have you been brainwashed there also. Do you really believe that Jesus went around asking for Money? Have you read the part where Jesus got really angry at the TAX COLLECTORS? You think he would approve of giving your money to CORPORATIONS instead of helping your FELLOW NEIGHBORS? I am disgusted with you all!

[Dorian Gray]

118. Yes

It's horrible that our government had to resort to this, but in order to protect us, it's necessary. I'm happy that we are taking this action, and I hope that it is more than a temporary band-aid.

[mainegreen]

119. Fine. But raise income taxes on the wealthy, eliminate hiding assets off the books,

and simplify the tax code so that companies may not create puppet companies to eliminate or reduce tax liabilities and other such shenanigans. If I can't do it, neither should a company be able to do it.

[Joanne98]

120. Plus we will make money on interest. We made money on the Mexico bailout.

The Fed is charging AIG 11% interest on the 85 billion. Plus AIG has a fleet of airplanes worth 50 billion so most of it's covered. I think it's cool. Let's nationalize everything! lol