Affordable electric cars seen many years away

[DainBramaged]

Source: Reuters

General Motors Corp's plug-in Chevy Volt and other electric vehicles have generated widespread consumer fervor for cleaner, less fuel-dependent cars, but the high battery cost means it will be years before those cars are affordable to most Americans.

Executives attending the Reuters Autos Summit this week agreed that low-emission electric cars are critical to the future of the U.S. auto market due to sky-high gasoline prices and increased concerns about global warming.

But at roughly $10,000 each, the light, long-lasting lithium-ion batteries key to powering electric cars will make those vehicles prohibitively expensive until production levels are ramped up to the hundreds of thousands.

"It will be more expensive than people expect," Mike Jackson, chief executive of AutoNation Inc, the largest public auto dealership group, said of the electric cars that will hit the market in the next five years. "It will be more expensive to make than the manufacturers can really afford, meaning initially they're going to have to limit the volumes."

GM's plug-in Chevrolet Volt, slated to hit showrooms in late 2010, is among of the biggest efforts to bring an electric car to the mass market. The Volt is expected to be able to go 40 miles on a single charge before dipping into its gas tank.

But GM said on Tuesday that it will only produce 10,000 Volts in its first year of production, eventually increasing that to about 60,000. GM has not said how much the Volt will cost, but plug-ins are expected to carry a premium of around $10,000, compared with a premium on hybrid electric cars of between $3,000 and $5,000.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/Autos08/idUSN1853705720080918

[lapfog_1]

1. Li-on is not the way to go... ultra capacitors hold out a lot more promise - n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

16. We should be able to buy these NOW not wait til 2010

[Tesha]

35. Right at the moment, ultracaps don't have nearly the energy density that batteries have.

And batteries don't have nearly the energy density that a tank fuel of
liquid fuel (gasoline or diesel) has.

Tesha

[gateley]

2. Gotta get working on technology. Look beyond what we have now.

I know Biden sponsored a bill to fund research and development of Lithium Ion Batteries (and it was passed). This was a while ago so hopefully the recipients are working on this feverishly :7.

[snappyturtle]

3. This mileage sounds paultry compared to the 64 miles per gallon

my friend's new Prius gets.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

4. Chevy prez on Colbert claimed the equivalent of $0.79 a gallon.

:shrug:

[DainBramaged]

5. You don't understand do you?

80% of the people who drive to and from work drive less than 40 miles total every day. Therefore, at a recharge cost of 80 cents a day, how much gasoline will you use? And if you get the optional photovoltaic roof panels, you don't even have to plug in to recharge (unless you are night driving) PLUS the actual expected range on a tank of fuel (to power the generator not for propulsion) is expected to be 640+ miles.

So go hug your friend's Peeus.

[snappyturtle]

10. You don't need to get snarky. YOU don' get it. If people travel

only 40 miles back and forth to work they ought to concentrate their efforts on public transportation. I don't know about where you live but our electric rates have climbed 30% this summer. Are the electric suppliers getting ready for the Volt? They'll screw us no matter what we do. AND, you can say whatever you want to about Prius but at least it is here NOW and not sometime down the road for only God knows what price after we bail out the automotives, again.

[dysfunctional press]

18. our infrastructure/lifestyles are based on personal vehicles.

just because 80% of the people travel less than 40 miles to/from work- it doesn't mean that mass transit is going to be an effective solution. people go that 40 miles in all different directions, and many of them make stops along the way for food/shopping or other errands. people are accustomed to the freedom of personal vehicles, and it is overwhelmingly the preferred choice of the vast majority. finding a way to make them work cleanly, efficiently, and be affordable isn't the best answer- it's the only answer.

[snappyturtle]

21. Yeah....when my husband commuted both from Crystal Lake, IL

and later on from Glen Ellyn, IL we found it very efficient. If he had to make a stop, he did it on his way to and from the train station. It was efficient because he had more time at home rather than stuck in traffic, could review work to and from his office, saved tons on gas and parked cheaper than at downtown Chicago rates. I loved the trains. I absolutely envy the trains around Washington,D.C......wonderful! Now I live in Texas. We frequently visit relatives in Houston and I can't believe the roads that are constantly under construction. Too bad they don't use some of the land for trains rather than all the big vehicles I see there. I guess it comes down to individual choices.

[dysfunctional press]

31. not everybody commutes into a central city.

how would public transportation help somebody who wanted to commute from crystal lake to glen ellyn...?
out of 75 families in our subdivision, only 3 people that i know of commute into chicago. the others travel to various areas around the suburbs. and for that type of commuting, there isn't any effective public transit...it would be too costly and unwieldy to provide servic from everywhere to everywhere. that's why personal vehicles are still the best answer for the vast majority.

[snappyturtle]

33. Of course it would be too expensive to have commuter trains

everywhere....I agree. Glen Ellyn to Crystal Lake...no there is no direct link. But along the train routes are many towns.....lots of choices of where to live. I guess as the population continues to grow we can play bumper car for longer distances and for longer time. I can't imagine what the traffic would be like going into Chicago without the commuter trains.

[DainBramaged]

23. Some people still believe herding people into mass transit is the only way to live

which would mean making the cities the ONLY place to live, crowded, dirty, dangerous. A future most of America chooses not to 'enjoy'.


I'll take my cheap ass little 30mpg 13 year old car any day over living in a city.

[snappyturtle]

29. When we lived in Crystal Lake,IL and commuting it was fifty miles

out from Chicago. The population was 12,000. It was living at the edge of farm fields then and the train went way beyond us. Mass transportation allows one to live 'out' if you're willing to adapt.

[DainBramaged]

30. That is the exception, not even close to the rule.

Virtually 75% of all rail in this country is freight only. THAT in itself is problematic to returning to the past.

[Terry in Austin]

24. Our lifestyle is not negotiable, you say

it doesn't mean that mass transit is going to be an effective solution... people are accustomed to the freedom of personal vehicles, and it is overwhelmingly the preferred choice of the vast majority. finding a way to make them work cleanly, efficiently, and be affordable isn't the best answer- it's the only answer.

How nice for them that they are accustomed to this choice. And wouldn't we all like to keep our preferences? Not very adaptive, however. Any time there are offers of "the only answer," it's good cause for skepticism.

It would be one thing if all we're looking at is a shift among consumer choices, but it's unwise to assume that such is the case here. Our whole energy base is shifting, and shifting downward by an order of magnitude. Effective responses need to be at the same magnitude -- some very large shifts in our living arrangements.

Looking for "solutions" is a misleading way to frame the issue. A "solution" is something that makes the "problem" go away. The energy situation is not really a problem in that sense, since all our adaptive responses are not going to make it go away. Not until the world is very different, anyway.

Rather, it's a predicament, and we cope with it as effectively and adaptively as we can. This includes mass transit, electric vehicles, bike- and pedestrian-friendly cities, better urban land-use policies, localized agriculture -- the list is a long and untidy one, but it leads the way to successful adaptation.

[DainBramaged]

25. This is America, not the state of mass lemmings

but of course, we must adapt to your way or we will all die.:eyes:

[Terry in Austin]

26. Your grasp of geography is commendable

Having established that this is America, how is that relevant?

What do you see a decade or so down the line? How much energy is it going to take to run it, and where is that energy going to come from? What will replace the amount of energy no longer available from oil?

Got anything besides dismissal?

[DainBramaged]

27. Yeah, how is public transportation in Texas?

I love the people who dismiss ANYTHING GM tries out of hand simply because they think (meaning you) that the only salvation for America is to go back to the age of trains. If that's the case, maybe you should go get Railroad Tycoon III and see how difficult it is to give your transportation solely to mass transit. Sid Meyers' Railroads and Tranz are two other good simulations that show how quickly mass transit is overwhelmed by demand.

And pictures of the way mass transit is the only way to travel in the third world is a good example of what we will become if your dream of ending motor vehicles comes true.

we're done, I got work to do.

[Terry in Austin]

28. Mm-hmm.. I didn't think so

Done, indeed.

[dysfunctional press]

32. everything's negoitable.

but people have to get to where their jobs are, and not all of them work/live in places where mass transit is feasible. developing personal electric powered-vehicles that can be recharged at home is probably a much beter answer for the most people than trying to force them to attempt to live and work along mass transit corridors.

[DainBramaged]

22. Is there decent public transportation in California? Utah? South Dakota? Oregon?

Enjoy your Toyota, since you will never be a customer for a GM product, go bother someone else.

[Gold Metal Flake]

15. How much wattage do you think you can get out of the area the size of a car roof?

Not more than 200 watts, unless those solar panels will be built out of triple junction space cells at 400 bucks a piece. Fat chance, that.

No, the roof panel will not recharge the batteries after 20 miles or 10 miles or 5. This car will have to be plugged in to recharge.

As for Lutz, he is a corporate conservative climate change denier. The Volt is designed to get good press while tamping expectations. Get people looking at Volts, sell them Aveos.

Have I said yet today FUCK GM? Well, I have corrected that oversight. Don't worry, my little Dain Brammage, it's not that I drive a Toyota. I'm a Ford man. Let the deleted sub-thread begin! :evilgrin:

[Tesha]

36. I think you need to check your math.

80¢ to recharge? Not in my area.

Solar cells actually recharging the car in less than a week? Doubtful.

Tesha

[WriteDown]

8. Ridiculous....

There is no "mpg" for the first 40 miles you drive the car. Its all electric up until then.

[pokerfan]

34. Running some numbers

Your friend's Prius (assuming say $3.84/gal) costs 6¢ per mile.

At $0.10 per kWh, GM figures that's 80 cents per day for 40mi of all-electric driving.

http://www.motorauthority.com/gm-reveals-production-version-of-chevrolet-volt-plug-in-hybrid.html

In other words, 2¢ per mile.

Three times more efficient than the Prius.

[Bigmack]

6. My Prius cost me $20,500...

after a tax break that Uncle Sam no longer gives.

I see lots of SUVs that cost a helluva lot more than that.

I'm waiting to see the new Prius next year... supposed to be a factory-built plug-in with the kind of performance GM is talking about.

[DainBramaged]

7. Of course, it's a Toyota, how dumb of me to think the world could build something better.

:eyes:

[DainBramaged]

9. Gee I guess even thought this IS Latest Breaking news, some people think this isn't important

(sigh) I guess Sarah Plain's hairdo is more important.

[shadowknows69]

11. Under orders in time of war this country produced

Literally tens of thousands of tanks, ships, planes, jeeps, etc. etc. in the space of a few years. Don't tell me we couldn't go "Manhattan Project" on these techs and get them out quickly.

[smiley_glad_hands]

12. That would take a government run by someone with half a brain. n/t

[R. P. McMurphy]

13. Half a brain? We've got that...

guy in office now. I guess we're ready to roll!
:rofl:

[ProfessorGAC]

14. Nope. 40% Tops!

The Professor

[Terry in Austin]

17. There's this problematic mind-set about what a "car" is

Most people's notion of "car" is dictated by what they are familiar with -- a two-ton beast with excessive power from cheap fossil fuel, routinely achieving ridiculously high speeds that not only kills 50,000 people a year, but also sets toxic expectations about where we can live, work and shop.

The usual discussion about "electric cars," then, makes the uncritical assumption that we're just looking for another source of power to move this same beast according to these same expectations.

Clearly, this needs to be questioned. Rather than try to fit the power-source to the vehicle, we need to fit the vehicle to the power source. Lead-acid technology is just fine for moving a light, affordable four-passenger vehicle at urban speeds over realistic distances. Life at sixty miles per hour is not three times better than life at twenty miles per hour. "Twenty is plenty."

Frame this issue as "electric vehicle" rather than "electric car," and we'll make much better progress!

[camio]

19. I don't know if plug-in cars are really the best way to go.

I mean... think about it. you're plugging in the car at the end of the day, right? Where do you think the electricity comes from...?

Coal-powered plants, most likely...

*Edit* - That being said, I do think hybrid/oil-less vehicles are ESSENTIAL! I own a hybrid Camry myself, so... I think it's a good idea for alternative sources of fuel.

[DainBramaged]

20. Of course you don't think a GM electric vehicle is a good idea, you own a Yota.

:eyes: