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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 07:59 AM
Original message
How your cashing a check is related to the current credit catastrophe
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 08:11 AM by HamdenRice
It has been very depressing following the unfolding financial catastrophe. But almost as depressing has been the lack of basic economic and financial knowledge most of the media, and hence most of the public, seems to have about what's going on. That's because the entire industry is remarkably non-transparent.

But if we don't know what's happening to us, we can't become the informed public that helps shape how the next administration cleans up this mess and creates a new regulatory structure going forward.

So I've decided to do my little part in providing some background information about how the system works, and why this crisis is so much worse than the media is able to explain. Last year, as the sub-prime mortgage crisis began, I wrote the first of this series, here, explaining the crisis through the movie, "It's a Wonderful Life." The point was to relate the big picture to the way we, as mere consumers, interact with the banking system.

In this post, I'd like to explain just how serious a "freeze up" of credit between banks can be, by showing how it's directly related to everyday transactions you engage in like cashing a check or using an ATM machine.

Let's say that you have an account at Citibank and want to withdraw $20 to buy dinner. There's no Citibank ATM around, but there is a Chase ATM, so you use Chase's machine. While it is true on a superficial level that you got "your money" from "your account" and it was deducted from your account, but on another level, Citibank did not give you anything; Chase did.

The result: Citibank owes Chase $20.

Similarly suppose another person deposits a $300 paycheck from his employer. This employee has an account at Citibank and the employer's account is with Chase. On one level the employee's Citibank account goes up $500, and the employer's Chase goes down $500, but in fact, so far, Chase has not given any money to Citibank.

The result: Chase owes Citibank $300.

If these were the only two transactions in the world that day, then we could have Citibank give Chase $20 and then have Chase turn around and give Citibank $300.

Or, we could balance the two debts against each other. Why do two transactions when one will do the same thing?

The result: Chase owes Citibank only $280.

This process is called "settlement." That's why banks historically closed early in the day. Before there were computers, when checks had to be counted up by hand and totals against all the other banks figured out, it took them from 3:00 pm until late at night to tally up who in the banking system owed whom what.

But it gets a bit more complicated. In the old days, Chase could send $280 in cash by messenger over to Citibank at the end of settlement that night, but tomorrow, by settlement time, the situation might be the reverse, and Citibank might owe Chase $280 which would cancel out the loan. It seemed like a waste of time to have messenger boys running cash all across Wall Street at midnight (or more accurately, guards moving gold bars at JP Morgan's bank or the federal reserve, from the Chase pile to the Citibank pile) so it made much more sense for Chase to lend Citibank $280 overnight.

This system of "overnight" loans between banks is what gave rise to the interest rate index used in the U.K. called "LIBOR." That actually was originally an acronym, for "London Interbank Offered Rate" -- the rate offered between banks for overnight loans.

Now multiply this two-transaction world by the hundreds of millions of transactions and billions of dollars that flow through the system of thousands of banks and financial institutions each day these days. Oddly, the millions and millions of transactions cancel each other out, but at the end of settlement, some banks owe other banks money.

Because these loans are short term, they historically have been unsecured -- that is, the banks don't offer each other collateral. After all, the reasoning went, these are banks! (In the late 1800s and early 1900s, they might add, "and it's owned by solid gentleman of honor!") Of course they're not going to fail by tomorrow morning, and if they don't pay up, they won't be allowed to play in the settlement game. So these overnight loans were considered very safe -- the bread and butter stuff of everyday banking.

Now add the current financial and mortgage backed securities crisis. These securities are the basic building blocks of banking. That's where banks park their money. But right now no one knows whether they are performing and whic ones, how much they're worth, and which banks have how much good stuff and bad stuff. Moreover, with the sudden failure of gigantic financial institutions like Lehman and Bear Stearns, suddenly, it's possible that a bank really could disappear overnight.

So, one of the things that is happening in this crisis is that banks may not lend each other money to take care of these and other settlements. The result would be that all banks owe each other money every night without any bank being brave (or foolish) enough to take the other's word on payment in the morning or when debts cancel each other out. Even if one bank offers another collateral, that collateral is likely to be a mortgage backed security, which no one will accept right now.

To put it bluntly, a bank that can't meet its settlement obligations at the end of the day, even if it is because of a generalized credit freeze, is for all intents and purposes, "insolvent."

That is the picture of a generalized credit crisis. If banks can't trust each other on settlements, then they can't cash your checks or give you money from ATMs other than their own.

That's why this crisis is unprecedented. It's not even like 1929. This crisis actually looks much more like the financial panics of the late 1800s.

It's hard to even imagine the financial system way back then, but the crazy part of it was that most money was privately created by banks and wealthy individuals. Basically, personal and business checks and "notes" circulated like cash, which there wasn't enough of because of the gold standard. During a panic, however, these "checks" or "notes" became suspect. (Would the check writer eventually pay? Which checks are good? Who is holding good checks and who is holding bad checks? Sound familiar?) Hence, no one was willing to accept payment from any other person, leading to depressions that were much more severe than we can imagine. That's why the Federal Reserve was set up -- to create universally accepted money. (Take note goldbugs -- do you want to return to panics on the coat-tails of Ron Paul's lunacy?)

So the only short term solution is that the Fed and central banks have had to play a stronger role as the "bankers' banks" extending credit to banks for the most basic transactions like settlements.

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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. I'm cashing out and investing my money in tulip bulbs
right now, that seems the safest bet.
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. pork bellies........there are lots of pigs w/o lipstick out there.
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. aaaiiiII GIIIIHHHHJ Ththtpt!!!!!!1111!!11!
I swore that if I heard another lipstick joke I'd just barf. Instead I went insane.

:crazy:
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
45. Sheesh.....people got to have their bacon...
:shrug:
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. It's okay.
Since this morning I decided to think of the pig w/ lipstick as the Palin/McCain mascot... seems so much more appropriate than the elephant don't you think?

Thanks for the inspiration, in fact. Maybe I'll try something Swamp-Rat-esque while he recovers from the storms...

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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. good rate of return on those...
Make sure the ground you plant in is solid though, don't want anything to get washed away.


:)


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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Seeds: open-pollinated, heirloom seeds
Add to fertile soil = real value.
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Raksha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #12
63. I agree.
Re Seeds: open-pollinated, heirloom seeds

Add to fertile soil = real value.



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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #1
18. South Sea, For Me!
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lolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. I've got it made
Got a box full of beanie babies under my bed.
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #21
33. A buck a piece at the local flea markets, :)
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Tallison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
43. Consider poppies
the second oldest industry in history.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. ROFL!
:rofl:



Nobody got the tulip bulb joke, though.


Oh well....
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Tallison Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Having extended family in Rotterdam,
I did, and its obscurity was refreshing! Amazing the role a flower good for nothing but its beauty could play in a country's economy.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. Excellent!
It's funny (maybe not) but I had a heated discussion with colleagues less than a month ago on the illusory nature of money.

My premise was that our economy is sitting on the largest Ponzi scheme ever created; the monetary credit system.

And here we are...

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OffWithTheirHeads Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. I got it.
Not funny!
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #54
62. Tulip hater



:yoiks:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
55. I got the tulip bulb joke
and I appreciated it FULLY. :)
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Gormy Cuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
61. Damn you! Here I was ready to get on the ground floor with tulips
and you blabbed the investment strategy to everyone.
:+
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
65. Wheelbarrows. nt
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Ninga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Thank you for your work to present a creative narrative. I hope that people listen up and learn.
I am trying my best to figure out the role the 1999 repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act, signed into law by Clinton, has played in this mess.

Any light anyone can shed on this, would be appreciated.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
10. I think Glass Steagall had little to do with the current crisis
See posts 14, 15 & 16 here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=114&topic_id=42908#42960

On reflection though, and after reading a bit about the current crisis, I would say the repeal of G-S was a very indirect cause of the crisis in one way. As my posts in that thread argue, the main purpose of the repeal of G-S was inside baseball to bankers, and was to drive down the cost of underwriting by investment banks.

Once investment banks lost their most lucrative niche -- underwriting fees -- they searched for other businesses to make those staggering sums, and turned to hedge fund-like activities, extreme leveraging, including extreme leveraging of derivatives and trading on their own account in debt, especially mortgage backed securities.

So the desperate search for profit by investment banks as a result of the repeal of G-S is one cause of the crisis.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Isn't it true that the "desperate search for profit"...
by all actors, in a game where profit is perpetually becoming scarcer in any given sector over time, necessitates the constant creation and destruction of tools and lines and sectors, and underlies the historic cycles and inevitable busts of capitalism, with its private ownership and competition and profit imperative? This is what Marx was talking about, the long-term tendency in the rate of profit to decline as the driver of perpetual crisis. Glass-Steagal is just one act in this game.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. But in a just capitalist world (if we can imagine that) new fields of profit ...
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 02:57 PM by HamdenRice
wouldn't come from manipulating the regulatory regime by eliminating G-S or writing interest default swaps. Even at this late date in the capitalist era, there are new fields of investment where returns are high and investment could improve life. The question to banks is, why try to game Wall Street when you could be earning similarly high returns by building the railroads from Lagos to Johannesburg, and Dakar to Nairobi?

The answer isn't that there is some world wide lack of returns; it's that American financial capitalists are lazy, greedy, timid, stupid, corrupt, ethnocentric, afraid to travel where there are no luxury hotels, and nearly devoid of scientific and engineering knowledge; those factors and the fact that the US military industrial complex has destabilized so much of the developing world such that it appears to be war torn wasteland rather than potential new fields for investment.

Fortunately, the Chinese are not stupid, lazy, timid, nor devoid of engineering expertise, and they are starting an era of capitalist type investment in infrastructure in Africa that rivals what the British did in India in the mid 1800s.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. well said!
I have too easy an answer, but you make me think on it. The short form would be to say that unfortunately, the until-now dominant money powers have a religion in which the worst sin is to fail to pursue the highest immediate margin. In their shortsightedness (and racism) they see a higher margin (and the elimination of potential competition) in plundering (and in the proces destroying) Africa, rather than in building its railways. That leaves the lower margin (but potentially the greatest long-term return) to the Chinese, who must come bearing gifts, since they lack an expeditionary peace force. (Peace in quotes, natch.)

A crazy world.

But is this true? Is China building cross-Africa railways?
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Beausoleil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. But wouldn't you say that the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000
did have a more direct role in the current (and other recent) crises?

Gramm, Leach and Bliley were in on both.

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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Yes definitely -- exactly.
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 02:38 PM by HamdenRice
It's important to realize how different that was from G-S. The statute you refer to exempted interest default swaps from any regulation whatsoever.

In other words, most securities or security like investments are regulated either as securities (stocks and bonds, regulated by the SEC) or as commodities (pork bellies, corn, sugar, coffee). Weirdly, commodities have come to include certain derivatives, which are much more like securities (stocks, bonds) than they are like commodities (corn, pork bellies). That's because derivatives first were developed as commodity derivatives, like corn futures, and the commodities markets wanted to protect and expand their market by including those financial derivatives in their markets, not the stock market.

The law you cite did, indeed, recklessly, stupidly and corruptly put interest rate swaps under neither form of regulation -- neither security or commodity regulation. That lack of regulation is what has led to the current crisis.

But my understanding of G-S was that it was inside baseball between the commercial banks and investment banks.

Also, in Europe and Asia, there was no wall between investment and commercial banks. In financially conservative Germany, commercial banks commonly buy stocks and run operating companies. The argument at the time, which had some persuasive power, was that there was no way American commericial or investment banks could compete with Asian and European combined commercial/investment banks without the ability to merge.
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Beausoleil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
59. Thanks! n/t
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shireen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
44. agreed, a very useful post. Thanks, HamdenRice. nt
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. Thanks for an excellent explanation. Now I'm off to my bank...
I've got some empty coffee cans to fill.

:hi:
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Jack Bone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It's a good thing they started putting coffee in plastic cans 'eh?
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
7. Thanks for this cogent explanation. I'll be able to use it with young 'uns in the barter economy....
...of the future, when explaining what "cash" was, back when I was their age! ;-)
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lynnertic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. great post! thanks!
:applause:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
11. Now you can understand this dire headling: Interbank lending has ground to a halt
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 09:06 AM by HamdenRice
From the Financial Times:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7b24ca0e-84ec-11dd-b148-0000779fd18c.html

Interbank lending grinds to near-standstill
By Michael Mackenzie in New York and David Oakley in London

Published: September 17 2008 20:39 | Last updated: September 17 2008 20:39

Interbank lending markets were in crisis on Wednesday as demand for cash sent yields on the three-month US Treasury bill, a beacon of safety, to its lowest level since 1941.

Funding in the short-term lending markets in both the US and Europe was close to a standstill, said traders.

Giuseppe Maraffino, fixed income strategist at Uni­Credit, said: “Banks are hoarding their cash because of this and this is putting a lot of strain on the financial system.”

RBS Greenwich in London said: “To say that conditions are dysfunctional and volatile does not do the state of play justice. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the markets have not been this anarchic and unstable as far back as most traders remember, especially in the US.”

All barometers of financial stress were at extreme levels as lending among banks in effect halted in the Libor market.

<end quote>

End of LIBOR and interbank market = full finanancial catastrophe
= end of banking as we know it
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. So that is why
Edited on Thu Sep-18-08 01:44 PM by Buttercup McToots
some banks this week have lowered the amount of cash
you can withdraw from the ATM, yes?
I read on another site, some fellow said
he wanted to W/D $500, but the bank lowered the limit to
$300.00...it was all he could withdraw.
:eyes:
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. I don't know for sure, but sounds like it
It also could be that that particular bank is facing a run. If the bank is saying you can't take more than a certain amount from an ATM from a different bank, that would be more likely caused by the freeze up of the LIBOR market.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
22. AHA!. .
( and "Ohhh NOOOO" !!)

I guess it's "thanks" and "thanks a heap!" on this thread...
lol
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. So what happens if I want to buy a house?
and all the closing checks have to go back and forth?
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. Good thread.
Explains the crisis of confidence brought on by the neo-conmen's efforts to deregulate money transactions. Now, trust has eroded to the point where no one in the financial industry can be trusted to be solvent anymore, which means paralysis in the midst of total chaos.

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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 11:46 AM
Response to Original message
14. In the WAAAAY back olden days.. officials from banks would actually file checks
in long skinny cardboard boxes, labeled with the other banks names in town, and they MET late at night in the Planter's state Bank parking lot.. traded back each other's "paper", then met at the A & G Cafe for coffee. they sat at the long table in the back, and tallied up their balance sheets..and traded local gossip :)
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. That's such a great story and image
and I can definitely picture it happening in Rice, Virginia in 1965.
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
15. Thank you, HR. Clarity!
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SweetieD Donating Member (517 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
17. Interesting read
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. Additionally throughout the day wire transfers move money between banks.
I used to manage a major bank's wire transfer operation, I can guarantee that there has been a lot of tension throughout the day. Domestic wire tranfer payments are settled real time through the Federal Reserve System. Banks in turn have to monitor customers' balances real time before releasing a wire transfer payment on the customer's behalf.


I have vivid memories of Black Monday in October 1987. I am so glad I will not be on the front lines of this fiasco.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Yes, wire transfers are a specific exception designed to immediately transfer funds
they are often used in closings of deals of all sizes.
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
41. The bank I worked for handled settlement transactions for many of the
biggest investment banks. Most of these banks were allowed to run intra-day or "daylight" overdrafts, a very risky procedure at times and one that as the operational manager had me frequently at war with the account managers. I think I turned prematurely gray over Drexel Burnham Lambert.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 03:12 PM
Response to Original message
29. Another good essay, HR!
Very frightening, though. :scared:
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
31. HamdenRice
The RTC fund that is being proposed right now (caused the 400+ spike) is like the fund created during the S&L Crisis in the late 1980's? All these S&L banks were going under so the gubberment created this fund to buy up all the toxic paper and dispose of it (ie tax payer takes it dumped on them). Correct yes?
Not quite understanding it...
Could you explain more?
Thank you
Buttercup
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Buttercup McToots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. HamdenRice
I followed the yellow brick road to George Baily...
It verry much helped me to understand more...
I will watch for more of your postings as this
monster unravels before our eyes.
I thank you for posting this.
Please feel free to pop over to
SMW thread in LBN...
It's a verry friendly place and very interesting
as well...
:hi:
Buttercup
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TooRaLoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
32. Thanks for all your work on this
to help people like me understand. Kinda makes me want to keep all my cash under my mattress.
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Lil Missy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
48. Me too!
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eshfemme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
34. Thank you for breaking it down for us.
:kick: because it's a really good basic financial primer.
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sicksicksick_N_tired Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
36. BUT,...the same greedy-types (w/ no moral interest in nation) are benefitting!!!
Not ONE of those fuckers who benefitted off their absurd, practically treasonous greed, are going to feel ANY pain from this game!!!! Sure, I understand the arguments about avoiding panic. However, those who most benefit off schemes basically RIPPING OFF AN ENTIRE NATION suffer little to no consequence and still own at least a hundred times more assets than the common, HARD-WORKING American citizen!

FUCK! THAT!!!!!

I am damned tired of greedy oppressors HIDING BEHIND THE SHIELD OF A CORPORATION!!!

Let us change that shield and turn it into jello by CRIMINALIZING ECONOMIC OPPRESSION!

Damn IT!!! :grr:
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. They are... just that people don't get it
20K + people have lost their jobs overnight.. and folks are not doing well

Even CEOs are starting to feel the pinch

They are late to the game, but they are getting quite a bit of pain...

What this reflects is how much we need to change the system so corps cannot get so large we cannot let them fail... (which is NOT capitalism, since they're not competing with anybody), and why we need to bring back the regulation that existed in 1998... wait, 1970 would be nice

But to think that these people are not suffering is back assed backwards
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
37. Puzzel me this then ... and I know its just a small quirk in the system you so nicely described
The daily settlement seems to contradict my average-guy experience in that it takes days for my checks to clear. If they pay up every night why doesn't a check deposited from a distant bank clear the same night as deposited?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Especially if they are in different regions of the country
they have problems getting to the settlement, even with modern tech and no crisis

Yes, this is the cliff notes
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PA Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. They are using your money.
At one time, banks actually physically exchanged checks. Now it's all electronic. So when you deposit a check, the bank actually clears the check electronically in about 24 hours, but they still delay giving you the customer full use of the funds.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
56. PA Democrat is right -- it's a systematic rip off built into the system
The three day clearance had historical origins -- it could take that long or longer to clear an out of town check. (See post 14 for a sense of how the system used to work.)

Now, with most checks clearing overnight, electronically, the bank has access to your funds for two days, and inasmuch as they put every cent to work earning interest, they make money off your money for 2 days before they give you access to it.

It's their "float."
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qwlauren35 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
50. OUCH!
That was information I probably didn't want to know. Need to know... but don't enjoy thinking about.
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
52. Metaphorically speaking, this explains todays financial collapse.
If I were a betting person I'd bet that Carlyle Private Equities is behind this collapse. IF I was a betting person. Head Hurts.
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bluesbassman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
53. As the LIBOR index is used for many ARM loans,
this condition is going to have a secondary impact on mortgage rates. The market will most likely move away from the LIBOR index in new originations, but those that are currently in place and coming up on their adjustment period will likely see an increased LIBOR index to contend with.

Historically this would not have been too big a concern as the borrowers could refinance into another product. However, due to the incredibly tightened guidelines we are now seeing, many of these borrowers are simply not going to be able to refinance, and will have to take the adjustment. Look for this to be another wave of potential foreclosures.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 05:56 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Yes, LIBOR is reaching historically high spreads over treasuries
and that's a measure of bank distrust of other banks. People with loans keyed off LIBOR will suffer as an unintended result. LIBOR was supposed to be one of the lowest index rates, and now it is unexpectedly high.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
58. .
:kick:
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kirby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-19-08 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
60. Actually...
The bigger issue in the past few days has to do with the bad debt (securitized home loans worth way less than face value) causing ratings agencies (which are a scam themselves) to lower ratings of the financial inst holding them. Once that happened, IOU's triggered due to the lowering of the credit rating. Institutions wanted their loans repaid in full (per the terms of their loans) and they did not have the money. And Insurance companies like AIG had written guarantees/insurance policies on those repayments which could not be paid.

Most Money Market Funds invest in short term (7-90 days) stuff. Part of that stuff were the loans to these other companies.

The whole thing seems like a big Ponzi scheme to me.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-21-08 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
64. kick because the stakes are so high
and people need to understand that.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-23-08 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
66. kick
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