Ban Pit bulls?

[LostinRed]

I'm curious what people think. I was in Las Vegas this week and I was reading the opinion section of the Las Vegas Review Journal a baby was killed by a pit bull last week. The letter writer believes pit bulls should be banned in the LV. I'm a huge dog lover I have three dogs (min pins). I don't know any pit bull owners but my gut feeling is that I don't think they should be banned. I believe in the old cliche "there are no bad dogs, just bad dog owners." I am I putting too much trust in people?

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

3. while the sentiment is "bad for bad dog owner", could you change the language?

homophobic language isn't needed. Thank you.

[MullenBank]

29. self delete

[uppityperson]

72. Thank you. In case you were wondering, it was the last bit

about the type of prison, the activity in the type of prison, that usually gets a post deleted on DU.

[uppityperson]

2. Several things here...

1) many people who deal with dogs on a regular basis, like vets, have a hard time positively IDing a "pit bull"
2) anyone who raises a dog to be nasty is a problem
3) any dog can be made to be nasty
4) media loves "pit bull attack" stories since they sell papers/air time/etc, so are not accurate on whether or not a pit bull was actually involved, and tend to report big headed short haired dog attacks more, since they are sexy/sell papers/air time/etc
5) no, you are not naive. While there are individual "bad dogs", as a body type there are no distinct body types that are "bad"
6) prepare for people to contradict all this. Emphatically.

[Wednesdays]

4. Of all the dogs I've ever owned, my pit bull is the most docile

She is very bashful, and least likely of any dog to bite someone. She has never even growled at anyone or anything!

Ban pit bulls? Ridiculous.

[cynatnite]

5. Pit bulls scare me...

but a lot of dogs scare me, too. Banning one breed...well, that's going a bit far, IMO.

[flvegan]

6. I run a dog rescue that specializes in pit bulls.

To be honest, pit bulls are MUCH easier to work with and retrain/rehab than other dogs. I've got, right now, ex-fighters, former bait dogs and otherwise just abused/starved/forgotten pitbulls.

Your letter writer has sadly bought in to the fear mongering our "media" likes to stir.

If one thinks that pits are so bad, check Cesar Millan's (yeah, he's that Dog Whisperer dude) input...

http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/features/factspitbulls.php

Oh, and not to mention the Michael Vick dogs rehabbing at Best Friends Dogtown right now.

Anyone that thinks that banning pit bulls is a good idea is too stupid to debate the matter with. They don't know shit, but react based upon ego and idiotic, unfounded "studies" that they can link to via the Google.

First one to link to Merritt Clifton gets a Moron Prize that I'll present later.

[obamaforme]

9. Pit Bulls are loyal, loving and goofy.

I never owned one, but Pit Bulls received such an undeserved reputation. It's a shame that owners take advantage of this dog's instict to please and train them to fight - to the dead if need be. Shameful.

[Vektor]

22. Thank God for a voice of reason...

And a firm one at that. I get so sick of the BS that I too, feel like anyone who buys into the hype about pit bulls is, in fact, way too stupid to debate with.

All the critics ever have to offer is shrill, shrieking, fear based hysteria, much like Republicans debating, well, anything.

[Marrah_G]

23. I don't think they should be banned

However- I do think that anyone who is going to own a large breed, especially those known to have caused deaths, should have to take a course in how to manage those animals. People need to be educated on the breed they are choosing and they need to be educated on how to properly train the animal.

[guitar man]

33. word

I've had "pits" for years and they have been the best dogs I've ever lived with. Bottom line is, they are oversized lap dogs. Love them and care for them and you have a best friend for life. Throw them on a chain in the yard and neglect them and you can potemtially make a killer out of them. They do thrive on love and attention.

[Rob H.]

81. I volunteered at a veterinary hospital when I was in high school

and the groomer there had a female pit bull that she brought to work with her every day. She was one of the most mellow, well-behaved dogs I met (aside from a bulldog that was boarded there once) while I worked there.


ETA: A friend of mine's apartment building super was given a pit bull pup by one of the former tenants and the pup grew up to be a great big goofball. It makes me smile to see this little old man walking his rat terrier and a pit bull that weighs nearly as much as he does(!).

[DangerousRhythm]

116. Agreed. A friend of mine had pit bulls

...and other friends have pit mixes who are registered as such, unfortunately. The thought that their beloved pets could be taken away absolutely horrifies me and of course is even worse for them! My thoughts on it are summed up by this:



Look at that sweet doggie face and tell me anyone could ban that! :cry:

[Dorian Gray]

119. You do good work

fivegan. Those dogs are lucky to have you.

[Runcible Spoon]

140. banning pit bulls will just make them even MORE sought after for underground fighting rings.

I agree 10000000% with everything you've said on this, now and in the past.

[uppityperson]

144. When you can't argue facts, attack emotions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4030637

[enlightenment]

7. I think this is the typical over-reaction.

A line in the article in the RJ reads,

"North Las Vegas has investigated 192 dog attacks since the beginning of last year, including 73 attacks from pit bulls, Smock said."

So, 73 pit bull attacks and another 119 that were NOT pit bull attacks.

Why ban pit bulls? Let's ban ALL dogs instead since they all have teeth . . .

Ridiculous.

I live in LV and frankly, I'd rather see them ban the morons who keep leaving their children to cook in their own juices in locked cars because "they forgot" or they were just "dropping something off" or "picking something up". I'd leave a kid with a room full of pit bulls before I left one with these jokers.

[Believing Is Art]

8. I was attacked by a pit bull last week

Its owner took it on a walk by my house, and it suffocated me with slobbery kisses.

I don't think they should be banned. Pit bulls and rotts have worse reputations than they deserve. But anyone looking to get a large, strong breed should really have to go through some education and in some cases have to meet with trainers or other behavioral specialist. There aren't bad breeds, but some breeds can kill. Someone who doesn't have the experience or time for a pit bull should be advised to look at other breeds, or a cat.

[bookman]

10. Dogtown

If you get a chance to see Dogtown on the National Geographic Channel don't miss it. Their first episode was on the Vick dogs (they call them the Victory Dogs).

Best Friends Animal Sanctuary does some remarkable work. They're proving that pit bulls are dogs gone bad due to their owners, not the breed.

Check out...

www.bestfriends.org for an update.

[obamaforme]

11. I watched that show and will watch future episodes

[ConsAreLiars]

12. Animal Planet had one episode of "Animal Witness" on the Vicks dogs.

One put down for health reasons. Another for temperament. Dogtown rehabbed the rest. Some went on as family pets and even therapy dogs. They said the dogs first presented themselves as the most pathetic of animals from the low-end breeders or victims of extreme abuse and neglect. Cowering, afraid, defensive, and all that. Brutalized. Yet they could become just healthy, ordinary dogs again.

On a personal note, after several dogs during my life, the one that was really most Buddha-like and deserving of Nirvana was ID'd by the vet as pit bull. More than that, a Brindle, and deserving of some distance by popular belief. A street rescue. But compassionate. A healer. Turned around the life of at least one person, from homeless dysfunctional to a person who so wanted a dog like that in her life that she went from a transitional housing situation (no pets) to living independently in her own space, and many others whose main experience of something like joy was slipping her a treat and taking delight in pleasing her or just getting a chance to pet her. And the extremely withdrawn never-said-a-word woman who began to communicate.

And so on.

Horses and deer kill more people than dogs. For those who delight in being afraid, there are even more dangerous beasts than dogs.

[a la izquierda]

53. Great show. And read Cesar Millan's books.

It's not the dogs. It's the human idiots that make dogs bad.

[seabeyond]

55. what does it matter when being mauled that the reason is because of an owner

a bad owner with other dogs may bite, but not kill. bad owner with pit, kills. do i, as i am being mauled, really care it is because it is a bad owner. at the moment i am busy trying to protect myself from a very aggressive, very strong dog chewing on me.

i dont get how we seem to dismiss all concern with the lite..... it is the bad owner comment

it is like issue with gun. dismiss dangers with..... guns dont kill people, people kill people

i really do not understnad using this as argument.

[a la izquierda]

67. I have seen your opinions this on this thread.

I'm not going to argue with you on it. I understand you have had bad experiences with pit bulls and that really sucks. My husband, as a matter of fact, has too. He worked in an animal shelter once. He was assisting in a euthanasia of a pit bull that was deemed too dangerous for society. The person administering the shot did it wrong-the pit bull attacked my husband and latched on to his arm, nearly severing the main veins in his wrist. He's also been attacked by cocker spaniels, a poodle and two chihuahuas. Those bites were far worse because the dogs kept biting, so he ended up with body parts that looked like chopped meat.

Please don't assume that I dismiss the danger of it. I don't. But banning the breed is not the answer, just as I don't think banning handguns is an answer to solving the crime problems. All things in moderation.
Read my post downthread.

[ColoradoMagician]

13. They are illegal in this city.

They passed a law banning pit bulls here.

[skooooo]

14. Risks outweigh the rewards, imo.

Of course, my opinion is worth what you pay for it probably! But why take a risk when there are so many bad "accidents" with these dogs?

[MadHound]

15. Banning is simply a knee jerk reaction of the scared and ignorant

Pit bulls are wonderful dogs, I've had a pit bull or pit mix all my adult life. Like any other dog, if you love them and treat them well, the will be devoted to you. They are an excellent dog around kids(this is not just a personal opinion, but also backed by the AKC who had recommended the pit bull as the best family dog for decades until the great pit bull scare set in). They are intelligent and loving, and about the only drawbacks they have is when they go through their chewing phase as a puppy, well, they really, really chew things up. Also, they do love to lick people and are a bit slobbery.

I wouldn't trade any of my pits for any other dog. I can't ask for a better companion and friend, one who not only loves me, but loves the cats, and other dogs I have. They also make excellent guard dogs, ones that will protect your house with their life in necessary. Plus, with the reputation that pits now have, most thieves won't mess with a house where they know a pit lives.

Sadly, this is simply one more product of the the public hysteria whipped up by the media.

[bluedonkey]

151. This made me laugh

"about the only drawbacks they have is when they go through their chewing phase as a puppy, well, they really, really chew things up."

I literally laughed out loud remembering my Jasper, when a puppy ,ate my couch! I came home to white fluff and bits of coloreful fabric all over my living room and Jasper in the middle of that mess. We crate trained after that.
Jasper is the best dog I have.I also have a German Shepard,very impulsive dog,he needs much more supervision that Jasper. On a side note: I would never leave a dog and a baby unattended in the same room. Even small dogs are know to bite babies as a friend of mine could tell you.

[RebelOne]

16. I have had two pit bulls and two Rottweilers.

Both breeds are fantastic, intelligent and easy to train. I lost my first Rottie when she was one month short of 12 years old. My current Rottie just turned 11 years old and I am hoping to keep her around for a while. But it is breaking my heart that she is nearing the end of her lifespan. But I do know that pit bulls are unpredictable. One of my pits could not be trusted around small children.

[earth mom]

17. I want them banned. Period. nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

77. Gee... I'm Shocked.

You subscribe to irrational and ignorant fear instead of well based logic grounded in reality. Who woulda thunk it?

:dunce:

[earth mom]

141. I call it common sense. Practically very time someone is maimed or killed by a dog it's a pit bull.

But hey, go ahead and have a party with your neighbors or friends pit bulls and see what happens when they decide to turn...ON YOU.

Pretending these dogs are just friendly furr balls is what I call ignorant and foolish. :eyes:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

146. ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

My my the ignorance is astounding!

[uppityperson]

147. Practically very time news reports someone maimed or killed by a dog, it's called a pit bull.

Too bad they turn out later to be retrievers or some other type of dog, or even a false report, the initial sexiness "omg pitbull!" has sold airtime and papers and besides, no one notices the small corrections back on page 4 if printed at all.

[PeaceNikki]

18. BSL is an ineffective knee-jerk reaction

http://www.thedogpress.com/SideEffects/side_effects_leg_01.asp

Dog Law and Breed Legislation

Why Breed Bans Don’t Work

by Katharine Dokken

Besides the enforcement side of this equation there is also the public health problem. Banning ownership of certain breeds would cause consequences to human safety. A breed ban would not eliminate these breeds. It would not stop individuals from desiring or acquiring the banned breeds. Rather, the owners of such breeds and the public would be placed at greater harm because the dogs would no longer be produced by reputable breeders who breed for good temperament and health but would instead be produced by underground breeders who deliberately breed aggressive dogs.Banned breeds would have no access to vaccinations and proper vet care - rabies vaccinations will not occur, making dog bites much more serious.

The biggest problem that BSL fails to address is that of personal responsibility. Any dog treated harshly, trained to attack, or not properly bred or socialized may bite a person. Any dog can be turned into a dangerous dog. The owner is most often responsible -- not the breed.

While Pit Bulls are at the forefront of breed banning discussions, it is not limited to Pit Bulls alone. Once you get a law on the books to ban a certain breed, it’s very easy to simply keep adding more breeds to the "outlawed" list. For example, In Cincinnati, Ohio, they banned American Staffordshire Terriers and Staffordshire Bull Terriers or their mixes as "pit bulls". In the discussion that followed during the hearings, city council members toyed with including other breeds on the list including: German Shepherds, Dobermans, Rottweilers, and Rhodesian Ridgebacks. Recently the Cincinnati law was overturned due to the huge expense of enforcement and several losses in court, one of which was when an owner of eight purebred American Bulldogs seized and declared to be "pitbull mixes" sued the city over his dogs seizure and won.

In order to cut down on vicious dogs in the community, authorities need to hold the owners responsible for their actions. Animal cruelty, vicious dog, running at large, and many other laws, already exist in most areas. Punish the deed, not the breed!

[Dogtown]

19. Enforcement?

How will you ID a "pit-bull"? *Who* will identify possible violations, and how will they be trained/qualified to do so?

What about mix-breeds, and when are they diluted to the point they aren't pit bulls?

Who pays for all of this?


It's a ridiculous concept, completely unenforcible.

[jakem]

20. just the ones with lipstick.

dogs, for the most part, have no be trained or neglected into hostility.

[Vektor]

21. Unfortunately, this breed has attracted a lot of thugs. Don't ban the dog.

But DO get the stupidity of some owners in check.

Having owned/trained/grown up with "Pit Bulls" all my life, I can tell you that that are incredibly loving, goofy, sweet, playful dogs by nature. They are also terriers, and are tenacious, boisterous, and very loyal. Never have I had an incident of aggression with the ones I have encountered.

Unfortunately, any breed of dog can, and sometimes will misbehave, but in the same way that the media crucifies a Democrat for the smallest infraction, while ignoring Republican evil-doing, the media makes it a circus whenever a pit-bull (or often any large dog that looks like a pit bull but might even be a mix of mastiff, boxer, bulldog, etc...and not a pit bull at all) is involved in an incident, the sensationalist bullshit begins. The words "pit-bull attack" still get ratings, even when the dog in question might be a mixed mutt who isn't even a pit bull. Attacks by any other breed of dog get a lot less attention, but actually happen quite often.

Pit-bulls' physical strength, extreme loyalty, intimidating appearance, and high trainability and intelligence unfortunately makes them very attractive to thugs and ne'er-do-wells who love to exploit these dogs and misuse what ought to be positive traits. Those people ought to be punished harshly, not the animal. A lot of public educations needs to get out there too, as there is a LOT of ignorance about this breed. Put it this way, if you did not grow up around these dogs, haven't raised them yourself, and what you think you know about them you gleaned from watching the news, then you really don't know anything.

Many breeds have been maligned throughout the ages, Shepherds, Mastiffs, Dobies, Rotts, etc...but none quite so bad as the "Pit Bull", or more accurately, the Staffordshire Terrier. Which is sad. These dogs used to be heroes; symbols of patriotism and heroism. And rightly so...


One of many WWI posters featuring pit bull mascot:


U.S. Navy poster:


Life Magazine cover featuring the Gentlemanly Pit:


The Little Rascals and their sweet buddy, Petey the Pit Bull:


The lovely Jessica Biel and her pit bull Tina, hardly thugs IMHO.


Helen Keller and one of her pit bulls, "Phiz"


Helen Keller and another one of her loyal pit bull companions:


Sgt. Stubby, Pit Bull, and decorated war hero:


Nothing truer was ever said:

[Amelie]

143. Have you seen the series "Dog Town"?

It's about a no kill shelter in (I think) Utah. They took in several of Michael Vick's dogs for rehabilitation. Although it didn't happen overnight, even the most aggressive case became companionable. One of the things mentioned during the show was that the pit bull was basically America's dog in the early 20th century, known for it's loyalty, strength and intelligence. Like you said, thugs became attracted to it, and ruined the poor dog's reputation.

[Vektor]

155. I wish more people knew that.

You'll notice that the vast majority of the replies on this thread which are strongly pro pit bull are from informed people who actually have lived with these dogs for years, grown up with them, and worked at shelters and rehabbed them, even from the very worst conditions. In other words, people who actually know.

The knee-jerk, anti pit bull, fearful ones are mostly from people with little to know no experience with the dog, who have avoided them like the plague, seen too many sensationalist news stories, or have had a small but scarring number of bad experiences with a pit bull (who may have been a mixed breed for all they know) who was mishandled, misused or under-trained by an irresponsible owner.

These folks will weigh in, and bash pit bulls, but how about all the other people who have had bad experiences with all other breeds of dog? It happens all the time unfortunately, but we won't hear much about that here.

I think on this one, I'll trust what I know from personal experience, and what the other posters who routinely live and work with these dogs have to say. Besides, pit bulls who bite are no more common that ANY dog that might bite. The " pit-bull attack" instances just get publicized more. And I cannot stress enough, any large boxy dog with a muscular build who bites someone will get called a pit bull when the news hits. That's really unfortunate and unfair, IMHO;

I just can't bring myself to have a prejudice against any living thing based on breed, color, religion, sexual orientation, undeserved bad press etc. I'm not into letting the media tell me who to fear, ya know?

[tpsbmam]

24. Absolutely not. Posting of a friend on Blue Mass Group

Pit bulls are WONDERFUL dogs. My friend rescued a pit bull that showed up starving and damn near frozen to death on her door -- absolutely over-the-top incredible dog -- great with all babies & kids, adults, other animals of various species, a gentle, loving soul......my little male rescue tried to start a fight with him one day. He was having none of it and didn't react at all. Believe me, I'm the most protective person in the world when it comes to kids and dogs. I've never left a young child alone with a dog because I know even the gentlest dog in the world can be provoked into defending itself. And I would NEVER let a dog I didn't trust around my two small dogs. I know that this is anecdotal but he's a great example of how media hype can lead to great dogs being targeted for no reason.

Now, that said, I'm careful around pit bulls only because I know that there are human idiots who breed and train them to be aggressive. But I'm careful about all dogs I don't know for the same reason. My little rescue (11 pounds) can be aggressive until he gets to know someone and then he's a gentle love, but he has some lingering fear aggression -- I'm careful as a result and restrain him accordingly for people's protection and his protection. There are responsible and irresponsible dog owners everywhere -- it ain't the dogs, it's the people.

Anyway, here's my friend's post (links aren't translating -- sorry):

http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9951

Paris Hilton Adopts PitBull Part I
by: lolorb
Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 16:30:58 PM EST

Title and references changed per responses.
Not really. It's my example of a headline that a large portion of the world might pay attention to. I wish it were true. Anybody know Paris Hilton?

I've spent days reading web sites and searching for answers to the questions I had in response to the mythological post on pit bulls: where do the myths come from, why and who benefits? I had no idea how pervasive and illusive these myths were. I found only a few journalistic efforts that expose the myths outside of the webosphere. Author Karen Delise has written two books on the subject, "The Pit Bull Placebo, the Media, Myths and Politics of Canine Aggression" and "Fatal Dog Attacks, The Stories Behind the Statistics". There are a few others listed on various sites.

One of the most thorough and well sourced documents dispelling the myths comes from Dr. Stephen Collier School of Human and Environmental Studies, University of New England, Armidale, NSW, Australia which states:


Of about 14 human fatalities in Australia over the last two decades, none has involved a dog verified to be a pit bull terrier. The evidence does not sustain the view that this is a uniquely or particularly aggressive and dangerous breed, and there is no support in its attack record for breed specific laws aimed to control it.

In America in the 1980s, the decade of the "pit bull panic", with an estimated pit bull population of 500,000 - I million,49 accepting the most damning figures, in any given year one pit bull in 62,500 to 125,000 killed a person. The average American person was at least five times more likely to murder somebody.
lolorb :: Paris Hilton Adopts PitBull Part I
Another book of note is Dogs Bite But Balloons and Slippers are More Dangerous that helps to dispel some of the hysteria and fear over our impending doom.
The statistics on dog bite numbers in America from the National Canine Research Council shows there not much basis to support media and political claims about an epidemic of dog related fatalities:



U.S. Population / Fatal Dog Attacks
Year Humans Dogs Attacks
1950 151 million 20-22 million 10
1970 203 million 31 million 12
1980 226 million 40 million 15
2000 281 million 60+ million 19

Here's an interesting take on people who use the EDBA of Australia's web site (as was done here on BMG) for perpetuating the myths:


The station manager sent me 'proof' of the 'locking jaw' statement made by the air-head radio host.
Guess what it was?
Yes, that half-baked article run in 1996, typos and all, which had been posted on the Endangered Dog Breeds Association of Australia's website so they could mock it. The EDBA actually took it down quite awhile ago because knobtards in the media were treating it as factual, so he must have had a cached version.

The banning of specific dog breeds has been increasing all over the world in Canada, US, Australia, England, Germany, etc. The myths are everywhere, pernicious and consistent. They are unbelievably used to support radical legislation. How can that happen if there is no logic and no research to support the myths? Is it racial profiling with a new twist? Pit bulls are being systematically targeted for destruction, maybe because of mediaportrayals of their owners? Vilified, demonized and despised, but why? Who is the responsible party in this tragedy? All of these breeds have been around for a very long time, owned by Presidents, used in film, used as service dogs. They haven't changed. Myths abound about what fighting dogs were all about, but there is little or no historical accuracy or perspective given like at: www.workingpitbull.com/dogfighting.htm

There are no facts to substantiate the inaccuracies. None. Anywhere. Zero. Nada. Even the CDC and the AVMA have acknowledged the flaws in statistical reporting and are opposed to breed specific language. The media still uses this data to support the hysteria (including posters on BMG who wouldn't take the time to read the caveats). Since when is data based on media reports an acceptable source for a scientific study? Talk about bridges for sale!

In Paris part deux, I will identify the "who" responsible and why every single person on this blog site, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or independent should be concerned about this. I've got to run for now for my daily dose of reading through more case law and legislative proposals while listening to the excellent web broadcast on this issue. The site also contains a detailed list of where legislation is impacting all of us (including right here in MA).

Since there is no accuracy or fact behind data being used to legislate this isssue, there is subsequently no accurate data or facts to show that such legislation has done anything to remedy the perceived problems. If there's no science to identify the problem, there's no validity to the proposed solution.

One last note, because this is primary season. Did anybody post about the Huckabee son dog killing incidentdiscovered by Digby?

[seabeyond]

25. no bad dogs, just bad dog owners.... guns dont kill people do. ya ya ya

i love people that say this.... but when you are being mauled by the dog, the dog owner at that point is pretty damn insignificant

i dont believe in banning dogs

i am pissed that people get these dogs to live in neighborhood with children and others. it is kinda like people say, well it was the little four yr olds fault. IF they hadnt acted like a little four yr old, then the dog wouldnt have acted like a dog and mauled.... wtf.... tell a little kid to "stand" like a tree as a dog is aggressively attacking

i had a neighbor (died last year) that had two pits. he had every right to have them. for a decade the neighborhood was terrorized. this is the first summer i have been able to go out in front yard without constant wariness and eye towards neighbors yard IF the dogs got out. i feel free. i appreciate not having that fear ingrained and constant. i can also let kids go into front yard without having to stand watch. that too feels good. and neighbors can walk past house without fear of attack

no, i dont believe in banning.

[cboy4]

26. California City Hopes to Curb Pit Bull Attacks with New Law

The city of Manteca, California, has passed a new law saying that if you own a pit bull breed you either have to get it fixed, qualify as a legitimate breeder of pit bulls or risk being charged with a crime or having the dog destroyed. According to a news article in the Manteca Bulletin, the law, which takes effect in October, was a reaction to a series of seven vicious dog attacks in Manteca. A majority of those dog attacks involved pit bull breeds.

California law prohibits local municipal ordinances from banning breeds of dogs. But it does allow breeds to be regulated including requiring them to be spayed and neutered. According to the newly passed law in Manteca, the first violation would result in the city impounding the pit bull and disposing of it in accordance with the municipal ordinance. The second offense is a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in county jail for a period not to exceed six months and a fine of up to $1,000.

According to a report released by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control (CDC), pit bulls and rottweilers accounted for more than 70 percent of dog attack fatalities in the United States between the years 1979 and 1996. This report clearly shows that when it comes to dangerous dog breeds, pit bulls and rottweilers really do lead the pack. Breed bans are illegal in California and an extremely sensitive issue in this country.

But what the city of Manteca has done helps strike the middle ground in helping those who want to own pit bulls own the animals while taking responsibility for their ownership. Many cities and counties in California and elsewhere in the nation have also recently passed vicious dog laws, which impose a lot of limitations of dogs that have prior history of attacking other animals or human beings.

These laws are necessary not only to prevent dog attacks, but also to keep our neighborhoods safe and injury-free. But that said, remember that 4 million people in this country are injured by dog bites in the United States. Be wary of all dogs – not just pit bulls and rottweilers. If you know of a vicious or dangerous dog in your neighborhood report it to your local animal control agency.

[PeaceNikki]

27. The CDC report you cite is garbage

In the first bullet point they admit to using, "media accounts". That alone tells us this report is nothing more than a waste of paper. The media is certainly NOT a place to gather information for a statistical study. There are many incidents that are reported as X then turn out to be Y. Many cases of mistaken breed identity or out right lies.

Here are the facts about that 12 year-old study that everyone likes to cite:
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/BSL/CDCReport/CDCReport.htm

[SmokingJacket]

28. The owners are the problem, not the dog.

A lot of people get pitbulls to look tough. They're assholes and bad owners and mistreat their dogs.

That said, I wouldn't be averse to a little more dog regulation. I went to our local pound to look at dogs, and all but one was a pitbull or lookalike pit-mix. :(

[Pithlet]

35. The problem with that argument

is that doesn't make the maulings any less painful or deadly. If it's my face or my kids' faces, I'm not going to care of it's the dog or the owner at fault. There is a problem and it needs to be addressed. I'm not saying banning is the answer, but I'm not ready to discount it, either. And I will tell you that it makes me mighty nervous to see all these posts of "but they're such sweeeeeet dogs!" I'm not disputing that. It's just that even the sweetest dog can snap when nervous. It's just that when a pit does it, the result is far likelier to be deadly. I wonder just how careful people are with their pit bulls if they truly think they wouldn't hurt a fly. No one should think that about their dog. It's not just thug owners who's pits maul and kill, and anyone who thinks that is a fool. I see plenty of non-thug owners who are irresponsible with their pit-bulls, and I think they are accidents waiting to happen. There are cases of pit bulls who killed and showed no previous aggression. I've heard pit bull owners interviewed after their dogs killed and they said their dog was sweet and had never hurt anyone previously. Pit bull owners who refuse to acknowledge that they are a dangerous breed are the dangerous owners, IMO. If more of them would acknowledge they're a dangerous breed, I would feel better about it, and might be less inclined to listen to those who argue for a ban. I'm sure I'll be attacked for this opinion, and I'll tell you it won't do much to get me to see their side of it. It's not that I ever wanted to see bannings. It might not have ever gotten to this point if owners as a group had not been in denial for so long. A lot of tragedy might have been avoided.

All dog breeds are not equal, and never have been. Different breeds have different aspects to them. And pit bulls have aspects to them that make them more dangerous than most. They're stronger, so when they do bite the damage is much deadlier. All dog owners have a responsibility to ensure their dogs don't bite and hurt others of course, and all breeds bite, but pit bull owners have to take extra precautions. It scares me that so many want to think breeds are all the same, and their pits are no different. That's scary. I don't buy the argument that the media hype is behind their reputation. In fact, I don't think the media goes far enough to portray the real danger. There's a reason more local governments are considering these bans, and it's not because of some media hype. People are suffering and dying. It's a real problem. Pit owners would do well to face reality. I think in addition to fighting the bans, education about the breed is in order, making people safer, rather than hiding their heads in the sand and pretending their breed is safe and no different than any other, which does nothing to reduce incidents.

In short, I feel pit bulls should only be in the hands of a very small few very experienced and responsible dog owners. That's why at the very least they should be a very restricted breed.

[seabeyond]

37. i sit in the same position as you. a poster above owns pits and is honest

the honesty i can respect and appreciated and is absolutely needed when looking at this problem. cannot find a solution if an illusion is created around these animals.

[Pithlet]

69. Yep. It is a difficult subject. And there's no easy solution.

The bottom line is, it's a public safety issue. Sure, it's bad owners, at least some of the time. Personally, I think sometimes it's good owners who just made a mistake, but it's more comforting for some to think it's only bad owners. But, whatever, that doesn't solve the problem. Punishing the owners after the fact clearly isn't working. Something has to be done. We can't just keep letting people get mauled. Whether it's more education or legislation, further steps need to get taken. My first inclination would be to work with owners to educate people further about the breed. But it seems to me that more owners want to be hyper defensive, so I'm not sure that's the road to take. So, legislation? That seems harsh, too. What to do? I'm sorry, but I just can't fault local governments for taking action. They can't just let things keep going on the way they are.

[uppityperson]

88. I see you are for restricting every big dog, or every strong dog.

What would you have for the defining bigness or strongness?

Edited because you did not call for banning but for restricting. I was wrong so changed it.

[Pithlet]

90. I am? Really? I didn't know that.

In fact, I didn't realize I was for banning any dogs at all. But thanks for enlightening me.

[uppityperson]

94. still posted wrong. Please see the info in this post... You said not ban but "restrict"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4029773

It seems like you and seabeyond are talking about big dog issues. "pit bulls have aspects to them that make them more dangerous than most. They're stronger, so when they do bite the damage is much deadlier. All dog owners have a responsibility to ensure their dogs don't bite and hurt others of course, and all breeds bite, but pit bull owners have to take extra precautions"

[seabeyond]

95. hm, since i have said, 7, 8, 9, times that i disagree with banning

further, that i would be the first to stand up for the owners right to this breed

i see your point. :crazy:

[uppityperson]

96. I was wrong, and edited. "restricting" was what the other called for.

My apologies, I edited both.

[Pithlet]

98. I'm talking about pit bull issues.

Because this is a pit bull thread. I'm not flat out opposed to restrictions, no. I'm not solidly in the camp for banning because I think it's an extremely harsh and draconian measure, but I will say that I'm not solidly against either, solely because of the things I see posted in this thread. The denial about how dangerous the breed is scares the hell out of me. Yes, there are other big dogs, and any dog is capable of potentially inflicting deadly wounds. But not nearly on the scale that pit bulls are. Many people are in deep denial over this. They claim that those who say pits are dangerous are just reacting to media hype (and that's the kindest thing said. Asshole, illogical, and stupid have been thrown around as well. Par for the course). They point at myriad evidence of the dangers as being debunked. Any links, and any studies pointed at are brushed off as bullshit. But nothing more than anecdotal evidence over how their own pits are just so sweet are really ever offered as counter evidence.

And you know, it's not that I don't understand why. It's very emotional. I love dogs, and there are breeds that I'm partial to. I can only imagine what it would be like if one of them were disproportionately the cause of most fatalities and disfiguring injuries. And I know I say that I don't think it helps the cause for them to claim that pit bulls are no different than any other breed, but I understand why you guys aren't champing at the bit to claim otherwise, because the fear is there that the opposition would then say "See! I told you so! They are dangerous! Ban them!" You're kind of in a rock and a hard place, there. But, people's lives are at stake. No. I don't want to see any dogs banned. Or even restricted. I'd much rather see people just be responsible. I'd rather see the breed just disappear over time, to tell you the truth. I don't want to see people get their dogs taken away. But, that baby in Las Vegas? She didn't deserve to die. People are more important. If I thought a ban would save lives, I'd support in in a heartbeat. And if I think that pit bull owners won't get it in gear and realize that pits are more dangerous, and need more supervision than the average dog, I will jump ship and go to the other side, and support a ban. That baby in Las Vegas deserved better.

[uppityperson]

99. Of course mauled baby didn't deserve it.

There is no breed that is "disproportionately the cause of most fatalities and disfiguring injuries". Yes, the media loves to report "pit bull omg" since that sells papers and/or air time. Many of the numbers that have come up to try to figure out IF there is a breed that is worse relies on getting numbers from media reports. See the problem? Media loves to write "pit bull" (even when it isn't), so that gets counted as "pit bull" when it may not be, often isn't, and since the media doesn't sell as much with "dalmation attack", they don't report it. You complain about anecdotal evidence showing pit bulls as sweet dogs, MOST of the studies, the stats reporting the # of attacks by what type dog are ALSO anecdotal and based on news reports. Yes, there is an issue with that.


For facts on breeds, please check my reply below (link here) giving info on pit bulls.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4029773

Finally, of course anyone who is bit by a dog deserves better, no child or baby deserves to be mauled. None of us are saying that. A ban on big dogs would help, or restricting big dogs since yes, sometimes size matters. A big dog is more capable of causing serious damage faster than a small dog. But, most times people, including vets who work with dogs, can't pick out a pit bull, and simply focusing on whatever is called a pit bull really ignores the bigger issue of dog bites, dog attacks, that.

[Pithlet]

101. Yes, there is.

Pit bulls cause a disproportionate amount of fatal bites. More than one study from more than one source has shown it. People love to yell "Debunked" and "BS" at them every time they're brought up, but I can see nothing that points to invalid. I'm a hardened skeptic, and science buff, and they seem on the up and up to me. And I'm not buying the media loves to report pit bull bias. Why pit bulls? Why not another breed? Who decided this and why has it stuck? Why would it be pit bulls for every local market across the board for years? Why isn't it, say, German Sheperds in Cleveland? Chows in Baltimore? No one can ever answer these questions for me. Who had it in for pit bulls, exactly?

You wouldn't exactly get an argument with me for big dogs, if I were the banning type. I'm not really a big dog person. I prefer smaller dogs. But, I don't think that's the issue, really. I don't think it's the size that makes them dangerous. I'll address your post about breeds further down directly.

[uppityperson]

102. Perhaps you didn't read my whole post. "Pit bull" sells papers/ad time.

Statistics, studies, have been based on news accounts. Or show me one that hasn't. Seriously. I have said I was wrong, show me I am.

"Pit bull attack" sells papers.

[Pithlet]

105. Lots of things sell papers

It doesn't mean the things reported in them aren't true. I don't see any evidence that there's this conspiracy to make it look like pit bulls commit a disproportionate amount of fatal attacks when it really isn't true. Especially when there are actually reports that point to that fact, not to mention all sorts of other evidence that points to that fact.

Look, I think it would be a good idea to do some good, hard science on this. But, until we do, I think it's a good idea to look at the good, hard evidence we already have, and come to the conclusion that yes, maybe pit bulls should be handled with a bit more caution than the average dog. If that doesn't happen, the maulings and the death will continue. If that happens, more municipalities will consider bannings. Whether or not you or I, or anyone else on here thinks it's a good idea won't matter one whit. That's why I think it's a bad idea to pretend nothing is wrong. That's the crux of my point, right there.

Even if you're right. It's all a media scam. It doesn't matter. If people perceive there is a problem, the bannings will happen. Perhaps it's a good idea to just *assume* that just maybe pit bulls might be a bit touchy. Perhaps we should all handle them with a bit more care. Then maybe the maulings and death will go down. No bannings. Everyone happy. That's my point in a nutshell. Part of my postings here are a bit devils advocate, because I'm saying that all the fuzzy wuzzy "but they're harmless" won't convince anyone but those who are already on your side. People will see the stories about the dead babies, and it won't jive. That's my point. I am being honest when I say it scares me, too. I don't like thinking pit bull owners think their little babies are harmless.

[uppityperson]

107. More links. Show me 1 that proves what you say. "no evidence" beyond all this?

Now we are getting to it. No one thinks a baby should be mauled to death. No dog owners should think their little babies are harmless. Good. These are the emotions behind why someone would think as you write. Now, to the facts. Here are more links, including one to all the stuff I posted below. Pretending that the problem is "omg! pit bull" very much ignores inaccurate reporting, and the bigger issue of WHY dogs bite and WHAT to do about that issue.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4029773

http://www.pitbullregistry.com/unwaranted%20negative%20stigma.htm

According to research done by Glen Bui VP of American Canine Federation his research shows the following stats, which is a more accurate representation of true bite stats since it actually includes the number of fatal attacks divided by the population, which is required to determine fatal attacks based on breed.

Apx. 240,000 - 12 Fatal Attacks Chow Chow .705%
Apx 800.000 - 67 Fatal Attacks German Shepherds .008375%
Apx. 960,000 - 70 Fatal Attacks Rottweiler .00729%
Apx. 128.000 - 18 Fatal Attacks Great Dane .01416%
Apx. 114,000 - 14 Fatal Attacks Doberman .012288%
Apx. 72,000 - 10 Fatal Attacks St Bernard .0139%
Apx 5,000,000- 60 Fatal Attacks American Pit Bull Terrier .0012% ...(much more)

http://www.fumento.com/mediacritic.html

The Pit-Bull Scare

Often news outlets hype a story by playing up an old problem. For example, every year dogs kill a handful of people. As a rule, serious dog attacks only make the local papers. But what happens when a reporter at a national paper or television station ties together a couple of local notices? In 1986, the result was the pit-bull scare.

Probably as a result of a widely shown film clip of a pit-bull attacking an animal control officer in California, the media began running stories about attacks by these medium-sized dogs of extremely tenacious character. More fatal pit-bull attacks did occur around this time than there had been previously, but dog-bite fatalities in general are extremely rare (about a dozen a year for all breeds according to the Humane Society, or as many as 18 to 20 according to the CDC), as are pit-bull bites. No matter; suddenly pit bulls had their incisors firmly clamped into the news.

Nexis searches in both 1983 and 1984 found 31 reports in each year of pit-bulls attacking or biting someone. That number crept up to 70 the next year and 115 the next, then exploded to 530 in 1987. Television cameras were on the scene quickly after each pit-bull attack anywhere in the country. Dog attacks committed by any breed were now called pit-bull attacks. Pit bulls became the featured attraction of television news shows like Nightline. Dan Rather on The CBS Evening News quoted "one expert" who called them "canine crocodiles." I was working at a newspaper at the time, and rarely did a day go by without a blurb on the wire describing the latest clash of man and dog. City councils rushed to ban the ostensibly vicious canines. Neighbors who owned the animals were threatened – albeit from a careful distance.

So intense was the competition to show the public the horrible nature of pit bulls that Wendy Bergen, an award-winning anchorwoman at Denver's KCNC, staged a pit-bull fight, then mailed a video of the fight to herself and showed it on the air as if it had come from an anonymous source. She was convicted of three felonies, including staging a dog fight, and fined $20,000. But as the Kingston Trio might ask, "Where have all the pit bulls gone?" They're still there and have yet to take a vow of non-violence. News consumers simply don't hear of their rare attacks because the press has finally tired of the story and moved on.

http://www.thetruthaboutpitbulls.com/

THE PIT BULL PAPARAZZI

A study by the National Canine Research Council reveals biased reporting by the media, its devastating consequences for dogs and the toll it takes on public safety.

Consider how the media reported four incidents that happened between August 18th and August 21st:

August 18, 2007 - A Labrador mix attacked a 70-year-old man sending him to the hospital in critical condition. Police officers arrived at the scene and the dog was shot after charging the officers. This incident was reported in one article and only in the local paper.

August 19, 2007 - A 16-month old child received fatal head and neck injuries after being attacked by a mixed breed dog. This attack was reported two times by the local paper only.

August 20, 2007 - A 6-year-old boy was hospitalized after having his ear torn off and receiving severe bites to the head by a medium-sized mixed breed dog. This attack was reported in one article and only in the local paper.

August 21, 2007 - A 59-year-old woman was attacked in her home by two Pit bulls and was hospitalized with severe injuries.

This attack was reported in over two hundred and thirty articles in national and international newspapers, as well as major television news networks, including CNN, MSNBC and FOX.

"Clearly a fatal dog attack by an unremarkable breed is not as newsworthy as a non-fatal attack by a Pit bull" says Karen Delise, researcher for the National Canine Research Council.

People routinely cite media coverage as “proof” that pit bulls are more dangerous than other dogs. Costly and ineffective public policy decisions are being made on the basis of such "proof". While this biased reporting is not only lethal to an entire population of dogs; sensationalized media coverage endangers the public by misleading them about the real factors in canine aggression. http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/

http://www.gripdog.com/pages/myths.htm

False reports (edited to add do a google search on "pit bull" "false report"):
http://www.readthehook.com/blog/index.php/2008/08/22/dog-bite-victim-filed-false-report/
http://www.nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/media1.asp
http://catousa.messageforums.net/non-pit-bull-attacks-and-our-media_t432.html

[Pithlet]

115. Okay. Fine. It's the media. Pit bulls are no different than any other dogs.

And the media will continue with their evil bias and hatred toward the fluffy little fluffykins, and scare the shit out of everyone. Journalists who tried to get the stories out about those dangerous schnauzers will keep mum. And pit bulls may very well get banned in more cities. What a damn shame.

[uppityperson]

117. You can show me no proof so resort to sarcasm. Huh.

No proof, no comment on any of that except sarcasm. Well, I do hope you read through that stuff.

[Pithlet]

118. Oh, I've read through all that stuff.

And I've also read through all the links that I would have provided to you had they not already been provided a million times on DU, by me and others in these threads. See, I know what will happen if I provide them again. You'll tell me they're biased. You'll tell me the stats were provided by the media. Which is biased, according to you. So, yes. I resorted to sarcasm. Because I don't know what else I'm supposed to say. How else do you argue with the media is biased? This is like arguing with my father. He claims the media is biased every time I try go argue with him why McCain is a bad idea. When I tell him he's voting against his interests, he just tells me I listen to the Liberal biased media too much. I can't win with him either. Every time I provide him with a link or a stat, he tells me it's from the biased media. I can't win. I can't win here, either. So, I'm sorry. I give up. Because yes. I would have provided numbers from the CDC. And yes, that guy Merritt Cliffton. I happen to think his report is very good, one of the best and most thorough out there. But it's Buuuuuuulshiiiiiiitttt!!!!!!! I'll be told, by someone. Never mind he's a major animal rights activist who knows his shit. I'm sorry. I've been through it all before. So, I'm sorry for the sarcasm. But, it's tiresome.

[uppityperson]

120. You won't give me any links, any proof because you can read my mind and someone else did elsewhere?

Wow. Good luck with that. I'd be glad to look through your info. If it is the stats that have provided by researching media stories, yes, I'll point that out. I've seen a CDC report and stats that says "beware, these numbers may not be accurate because they are based in a large part on media reports." That is from the CDC. Is that the one you mean?

This is like arguing with your father? Give you info, give you facts, and you say "I know what will happen if I give you mine so I won't". Huh.

[Pithlet]

123. The thing is, you started off with the very studies that debunk the legitimate stuff

that I would have posted. So, it didn't seem to bode well. Have you seen the Clifton report? Are you genuinely interested with an open mind? Because I'm willing to risk the open ridicule and flame that I will get to post it for you. And, yes, that's probablhy the CDC I mean. Yes, I'm aware they make that caviet, but I still think the fact that pit bulls are represented so heavily is significant. I don't get why people are willing to dismiss it. I'm not saying it's reason to ban them. But I think it's evidence that they aren't exactly like other breeds, and that maybe people should be a bit more cautious with them. The Clifton report is sifnificant because he went much further than the CDC. It's very thorough, and he addresses concerns that many critics of other studies had. You may be swayed against it, because the pro-bit bull crowd is adamant that it's bullhocky, and it appears you're very heavily invested in that side of the argument, but I hope you'll go in with an open mind. I've seen nothing concrete that says it's bunk. First, the org he's with http://www.animalpeoplenews.org/apHomeTeam.html And his report http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf Yes, I'm aware I got the pdf from the enemy site of all enemy sites, but it was the only place I could find it.

I'm sorry, but you did keep coming right back at me with "media bias" with every point I made. It was getting frustrating, so I didn't see the point in continuing. I apologize.

[uppityperson]

125. I can see you getting frustrated, and yes those are the reports I mean

I don't know what this "enemy site" is, and I can see you getting frustrated because, yes, I am coming back with media bias. When stats are based on biased info (what gets into media, which can and has been proven later to be inaccurate sometimes), then it isn't accurate, as the CDC report said. Don't forget I am also saying it is difficult to accurately id a dog as a particular breed, even for those who work with animals (link posted in my other 2 posts with lots of links).

I am glad that report gets into the "whys" of dog attacks as this is the thing that should be looked at. Every dog is capable of biting, bigger dogs are capable of doing more damage faster. And anyone who treats a dog to be aggressive or vicious should not be allowed to keep it, except in rare conditions.

I lived with a wolf hybrid for a bit. It started trying to play dominance games with me and when we figured out what we had, how bad it was getting, and he went away. I have rarely been truly scared by a dog, that one I was. I also lived (another time) with a couple undisciplined fox terriers (owner didn't want to discipline the "babies" so sib had to pay $500 to get cat's leg fixed, my kid got bit several times (and owner was very upset when I reported the dogs for biting). I spent a couple wks traveling with a mixed retriever dog and a mixed short haired big headed dog and the second was much better behaved though I tired of macho young men coming up to we middle aged women saying "nice pit bull". I must admit though when the dogs chased a squirrel, the stouter of the 2 pulled much harder.

[Critters2]

148. All dog breeds were created to do a job, and have the traits to do their respective jobs.

Pitbulls were bred to fight one another to the death. The aggression needed for this task is a part of the dog, as much as my beagle's annoyingly strong nose and food drive are. If I pretend the beagle is not food driven or able to smell things I can't, I could easily end up with a very sick dog. I know these traits and run my life--and hers--accordingly.

The consequences are much more serious when you don't take seriously the implicit traits in a fighting breed.

I can't be objective about this though. My beag was attacked in a park one day, from behind with no provocation. I don't favor rounding up the pitbulls still out there--but I'd be perfectly happy if they were all spayed/neutered, and the breed were to simply die out. But even that gets me attacked by the pitbull people.

[MullenBank]

30. 3

ive owned 3. buddy (1995-2002), lucy 1997-2008 and archie 1997- current.they are strong willed but playful. on occasion when you get an aggressive pit youve got a real problem on your hand s because they are very very strong. as a general rule pits are not ppl aggressive. they do have as tendency to be territorial and dog aggressive tho. still, banning is not an effective solution because any ban will fall more heavily on the law abiding pit owner than on the problem owner of a ppl aggressive pit. problem owners wont obey existing laws. new/more regs wont make a difference to them anyway.

[seabeyond]

32. i thank you for being honest. i am not into banning but they are not

all innocent of aggressiveness and not solely cause of owner, though it is certainly part.

but here lately people are "pretending" with these dogs and creating them not as they are but a story to be told

you love your pits i am sure

and you oppose ban
distinguish the difference
and you are still honest too


i can respect that

i wish we had more people with you ability

[AtomicKitten]

31. .

[guitar man]

34. yes

they are terribly vicious animals, my daughter barely survived this encounter! :rofl:

[seabeyond]

38. make lite. my babies were terrorized by neighbors two for a decade

but wtf, as long as your babies are safe

it is these posts that cause the outcry with pits. but if you look at my posts, i am not suggesting banning.

i also resent people who pretend others are not threatened by these dogs and are carefree with the issue.

[PeaceNikki]

40. The problem is that the same caution and "fear" of strange dogs should apply to all breeds

Acting as if a pit is the only dog capable of attack, injury and death is reactionary and unreasonable fear.

[seabeyond]

41. BUT being honest int he discussion of the pit and differences in breed

one know that a pit is more territorial than a lot of other breeds. that they are stronger than most and are an aggressive breed. that is a reality and fact. knowing the two dogs, the female not as aggressive and the male will stand and face down is knowledge that allows one to be cautious of the threat, not an unreasonable fear.

you have no idea about the situation. not a clue. i have shared little yet her you sit suggesting it is an unreasonable fear, to protect you position instead of addressing the issue

a perfect example of what a few on the board are suggesting to those that make lite of the issue

you just did, exactly that

[PeaceNikki]

44. Hmm. Well, you're obviously not interested in honest or respectful discussion.

Good day.

[seabeyond]

46. screw the people effected, ignore their experience, your pit and want and right

over rules. this is the exact attitude people are tired of and why the pit community has this issue now

bury your head

[readmoreoften]

111. I'd bet money that you couldn't pick a pit bull out of a line up.

I'd also bet money that you'd claim you could.

[seabeyond]

132. that is the pit bull advocate talking point. could be true, maybe not i do not know

but

you wouldnt be correct applying this to me.

i am not anti pit bull. i am not anti any animal. that isnt my argument.

[lukasahero]

78. Yes, let's be honest in the discussion - and educated

Your assertions about the pit bull "breed" are incorrect. "one know that a pit is more territorial than a lot of other breeds. that they are stronger than most and are an aggressive breed. that is a reality and fact."

Sorry, but this is not true. Please see post #74 here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4029003

I'm not dismissing your situation or concerns but the fact is banning the breed will not stop the problem of unscrupulous or uneducated owners. Your problem won't go away, it'll just be with a different breed of dog. If we're going to address the problem, let's address the cause.

[seabeyond]

80. i read that post....

i will also say, over a decade ago when i moved in this home and had to address the problem, the first thing i did was go onto the net to learn about this breed. i will also say that what i read then has shifted from what i read today since the pit bull has been attacked and advocate groups for pit bull has become so active and strident. i havent raised this issue because i cannot prove it.

ok, i googled, just first site. not reassured

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/americanpitbullterriers.html

Legal liabilities (public perception, future breed bans, insurance problems, increased chance of lawsuits)
An extremely careful search to avoid all the nasty, neurotic Pit Bulls
Providing extra amounts of socialization and training to make sure your dog turns out well and counteracts the bad press
Aggression toward other animals
Rowdiness and exuberant jumping, especially when young
Destructiveness when bored
Strong-willed mind of his own, requiring a confident owner who can take charge
Shedding
An American Pit Bull Terrier may not be right for you.



If I were considering an American Pit Bull Terrier...


My major concerns would be:


Unstable temperaments. American Pit Bull Terriers are a dime a dozen today, and most of them are bred and offered for sale by people who don't have the slightest idea of how to breed good-tempered dogs who can function in our society. Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants see LOTS of Pit Bulls with flat-out dangerous temperaments. It is difficult to find a responsible breeder when one has to sort through all the hype from macho breeders who boast about their dogs' "power" and "invincibility."

Extreme animal aggression. Most Pit Bull Terriers are aggressive toward other dogs. Many have strong instincts to chase and seize cats and other fleeing creatures, including deer and livestock. If anything goes wrong in the breeding, socializing, training, handling, or management of this breed, it is capable of seriously injuring or killing other animals.

To keep your Pit Bull in, and to keep other animals out, fences should be high, with wire sunk into the ground along the fence line to thwart digging. Gates should have the highest quality locks.


Providing enough socialization. Most American Pit Bull Terriers are friendly, but some have protective instincts toward strangers. They need extensive exposure to friendly people so they learn to recognize the normal behaviors of "good guys." Then they can recognize the difference when someone acts abnormally. Without careful socialization, they could become suspicious of everyone, which could lead to aggression toward people.

Providing enough exercise and mental stimulation. American Pit Bull Terriers are powerful dogs who MUST have regular opportunities to vent their energy and do interesting things. Otherwise they will become rambunctious and bored -- which they usually express by barking and destructive chewing. Bored Pit Bulls are famous for chewing through drywall, ripping the stuffing out of sofas, and turning your yard into a moonscape of giant craters.

If you simply want a pet for your family, and don't have the time or inclination to take your dog running or hiking or biking or swimming, or to get involved in weight-pulling, or agility (obstacle course), or advanced obedience, or schutzhund (protection), or a similar canine activity, I do not recommend this breed.


The strong temperament. American Pit Bull Terriers are not Golden Retrievers. The best Pit Bulls are versatile working dogs, capable of learning a great deal, but they have an independent mind of their own and are not pushovers to raise and train. They can be manipulative, and many are willful, obstinate, and dominant (they want to be the boss) and will make you prove that you can make them do things. You must show them, through absolute consistency, that you mean what you say.

[lukasahero]

124. Interesting what you chose to leave out of that review:

"Not all Pit Bulls are alike!

There are energetic Pit Bulls, and placid Pit Bulls.
Hard-headed Pit Bulls, and sweet-natured Pit Bulls.
Serious Pit Bulls, and good-natured goofballs.
Introverted Pit Bulls, and Pit Bulls who love everyone.

There are plenty of adult American Pit Bull Terriers who have already proven themselves NOT to have negative characteristics. If you find such an adult, don't let "typical breed negatives" worry you."

Additionally, I found almost the exact same language you post above in the review for Rhodesian Ridgebacks* but hear no calls from people to ban them - yet (wait until we have actually banned Pit Bulls and the "tough guy" owners need to find a new breed to exploit.)

*"The strong temperament. Rhodesian Ridgebacks are not Golden Retrievers. They have an independent mind of their own and are not pushovers to raise and train. Some Rhodesian Ridgebacks are willful, obstinate, and dominant (they want to be the boss) and will make you prove that you can make them do things. You must show them, through absolute consistency, that you mean what you say."

[uppityperson]

126. A lot of it is basic terrier info. I posted info on other terriers here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4030626

[lukasahero]

129. Of course - it's typical terrier temperament

I've been reading your posts and appreciate your efforts here. I'm painfully familiar with the terrier temperament having had a few myself. ;)

I just wanted to use the Ridgie as an apples to apples comparison since people dismiss terriers as being too small to do any real damage (and use that as part of the argument to ban Bullies).

FTR, I have nothing against the RR but it's a fairer comparison than a Pit to a Yorkie even though the temperaments may be the same (in fact, Yorkies are FAR more obstinate!)

[uppityperson]

136. Emotions often rule over facts. Keep finding facts and dumping them on.

Size can definitely matter. Next dog I get will weigh under 50#, am tired of having big ones though my big boy is a good doorbell for a country dweller. I'd like a sweet friendly non-agressive little dog, will be particular about temperament but probably a shelter or rescue dog.

[seabeyond]

133. i think it was pretty clear they were syaing not all pit bulls any one way

and i believe if you will read what i just dragged cursor to copy without "evil intent" that even in those paragraphs it says things with condition.

no where am i stating, even with this article that the pit bull have "negative characteristics". it is just who they are, in character. being stubborn, strong, strong willed are not negative if they are loved and understood.

it isnt my point to make the pit bull "bad". i do not see animals that way, i dont even see people that way. you have an argument with me that has nothing to do with me.

[MadHound]

82. Bullshit, show me one valid piece of evidence, preferably peer reviewed,

That shows that a pit is more territorial than a lot of other breeds. Again, show me valid proof that they are stronger than other breeds(like, oh, say a Great Dane or even a German Shepard) Show me valid proof that they are more aggressive than other dogs, specifically other dogs that have been raised like thugs raise pits. You can take any dog and make it into an aggressive dog by applying the methods that are used with pits. However if you don't raise a pit to be a vicious animal, they are actually less aggressive than other breeds. This is why the AKC, for years and decades, recommended pits as the best family dog because they were great with kids, intelligent and gentle.

You claims to want an honest conversation on this issue, yet here you are, spewing lies and bullshit that you got from the sensationalized media. Didn't somebody ever teach you not to believe everything that your read, see or hear? As far as extrapolating your experience to cover an entire breed, well that's BS too.

[seabeyond]

83. post #30 if you want personal experience. and post above you on

the first site i got to on google asking pit bull characteristics.... once i got past advocacy groups

[MadHound]

84. Please note, I asked for valid, preferably peer reviewed evidence

Not anecdotal evidence, nor what comes up on google, though I love how you so casually dismiss the advocacy groups. Funny, because such advocacy groups generally have much more valid evidence that the baseless bullshit you're spewing.

Here's some anecdotal evidence for you, there have been two deaths of babies at the jaws of pomeranians in the past few years, therefore poms must be vicious aggressive dogs using your logic. There, see how stupid that sounds?

[seabeyond]

86. thank you for taking seriously the threat others have to face and experience

and dismissing them so readily....

i would be the first to stand up for someones right to own a pit bull, even though i can see a threat with the animal, seeing that they are merely an animal and will act as such.

i am truly unreasonable. my bad.

[MadHound]

100. Well as they say, the first step is admitting your mistake

Now, please, inform yourself as to what the real state of affairs concerning pit bulls are before you continue to spread sensationalized BS. Thanks.

[Pithlet]

85. Not exactly a fair thing to ask, since there isn't exactly a whole lot

of peer reviewed science out there on breed behavior. No one is going to be able to provide that. Her claims aren't going to be any more based in peer review science than yours are. So, how are your claims any more or less spewed lies?

The thing is, there is a reason thugs specifically chose pits, isn't there? There is a reason pits show up disproportionately in the media, isn't there? Can anyone provide a shred of evidence of media bias, or the reason behind it? Why would the media be biased against pit bulls, exactly. Is it because thugs prefer them? Again, why would that be so? A lot of publications (not scientific, of course, but there you go) on breeds do say that pit bulls tend to be more aggressive. They state they are stronger. They were bred for specific reasons, just like a lot of breeds were, and those reasons made them attractive to thugs. The thing is, I've gone and done a lot of research myself. The fact that thugs like them has definitely made the situation a lot worse. ETA that it's not even about temperament. I have no doubt that pits can be very sweet. I've heard it enough from enough owners to doubt it's true. But even the sweetest dogs are capable of biting and mauling a person. The difference is when a pit does it, it's deadly.

There's lots of information out there, from organizations both pit bulls are just like any other dog and pit bulls are dangerous. I have to say, the dangerous makes a heck of a lot more convincing argument. If there's evidence that other breeds are just as likely to be deadly, it should be easy to find, but it isn't. If there's evidence that the media is biased against pit bulls and just covers up stories of other breeds being equally as deadly, it shouldn't be that hard to prove. If all the numbers that point to pits being disproportionately responsible for deaths are BS pseudoscience, then how come no one can come up with convincing numbers that say otherwise? You'd think thugs would be just as likely to pick poodles and schnauzers if there were no difference. But they don't. I think there's got to be a reason for that, and I don't think people making the argument that pits are indeed different from other breeds are just pulling it out of their ass. But, I suppose you'll now attack me as well. I don't know what I can do about that.

[MadHound]

103. Why isn't it fair?

Your contention that there isn't valid, peer reviewed material on this topic is simply wrong. Go to your local university or academic library. Go to your local vet school, hell, go talk to your local vet, you will find a wealth of information on this topic, and it isn't the sensationalized, media driven hysterical hype that commonly passes for sage wisdom on this topic.

Thugs have chosen lots of dogs over the years to be the bad boy dog du jour, from pit bulls to German Shepards to Dobies to Rotties. The one thing these dogs have in common isn't their aggression or their behavior, it is how they are raised, how they are treated. You can take the mildest of dog breeds and turn it into a killer simply through behavior modification, putting through a program to make it aggressive. Likewise, you can take a pit bull, or other such notorious breed, and have it be gentle as a kitten simply by raising it with love and kindness. It isn't the breed, it is how that dog is raised, get it. As I said before, before the great media pit bull hype, no less an authority than the AKC ranked pits as the top dog breed for families, for years and decades, due to their gentle temperment.

A suggestion for you, go read the peer reviewed literature, and yes it is out there. Then get back to me after you've educated yourself. And please, don't believe everything you read or hear or see in the common media. That goes not just for pit bulls but for any subject.

[Pithlet]

108. I'm sorry

But I'm just having a hard time swallowing the media bias story. Am I really to believe that the media is spinning this whole pit bull thing. What are they doing, getting all these stories of other breeds mauling people? And the stories come in, and then the jounralist types it up and gets it ready to go, and the editor says "Sorry, Joe, that's a no go." "Why, Sue?" "It's not a pit bull". And this is happening in newsrooms across America? I'm sorry. I just can't buy that. It doesn't make sense. I happen to know for a fact that my local If it Bleeds It Leads would splash a German Sheperd Baby Mauling! 24/7. But, every time a child is mauled in this city? It's a pit bull. Almost every time. Stats in every major city point to pit bulls. But for some reason, you point those stats out, and you get shouted down. They're wrong! Because they're backed by the media. And the media is biased. Well, isn't that convenient. Of course the media is biased.

If those studies are out there, they'd be available on the internet. If those studies were out there, they'd be trumpeted every single time these threads came up, and there'd links to them right this second. But, sure. I'll be happy to go to the library and look them up. But I have a feeling I'm not going to find too much.

Of course in the past it was other breeds. The pit bull is a more recent phenomenon. They are exploding in population. Shelters are crammed full of them. It really is a sad, awful situation. I really wish people weren't in such deep, awful denial over this. People, as well as dogs, are suffering awfully.

[uppityperson]

89. delete, others already covered it.

[uppityperson]

114. You are wrong. "they are stronger than most and are an aggressive breed.that is a reality and fact"

Here is information on "pit bulls" and about news coverage, including not just sensationalistic but false stories:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4029773
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4030228

[seabeyond]

121. no, i am not wrong

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/americanpitbullterriers.html

[uppityperson]

122. Sounds like warnings for all terriers. Don't see stronger and aggressive beyond terrier stuff.

Sorry but thanks for the link. I'll give that to people who want to find out info about dogs.

Here are links to other terriers from that site. They are very similar. Edited to add, I lived with a couple undisciplined fox terriers and they were nasty animals.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/australianterriers.html
Most terrier breeds are remarkably similar. The same words are used over and over -- quick to bark, quick to chase, lively, bossy, feisty, scrappy, clever, independent, stubborn, persistent, impulsive, intense.

Animal aggression. Australian Terriers are less scrappy toward strange dogs than many other terrier breeds, but they are still a determined force to reckon with if they decide to initiate or accept a challenge to fight. Most terriers have strong instincts to chase and seize small fleeing creatures. This can make for conflict if you own a cat. It may be much worse than that if you own a pet rabbit or hamster!

Terriers cannot be trusted off-leash. They will take off -- oblivious to your frantic shouts -- after anything that runs.


http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/foxterriers.html
#
Terriers were never intended to be simply household pets. I strongly recommend that you get your Fox Terrier involved in obedience classes at the intermediate or advanced level, in agility (an obstacle course for dogs), or in an earth dog club (terriers dig and tunnel after small critters who are secured in a sturdy cage so they can't be harmed).

# Animal aggression. Fox Terriers are a determined force to reckon with if they decide to initiate or accept a challenge to fight. Most terriers have strong instincts to chase and seize small fleeing creatures. This can make for conflict if you own a cat. It may be much worse than that if you own a pet rabbit or hamster!

Terriers cannot be trusted off-leash. They will take off -- oblivious to your frantic shouts -- after anything that runs.

Defensive reactions. If you need to physically chastise a terrier, and you go beyond what THEY believe is a fair correction, terriers (as a group) are more likely than other breeds to growl or snap. It may be because they were bred to become more fierce when their prey fought back, i.e. terriers are apt to "return pain" if they "receive pain." As an obedience instructor, I'm always extra careful when putting my hands on any terrier for a correction.

I do NOT recommend terriers for small children. Many terriers will not tolerate any nonsense from little life forms whom they consider to be below themselves in importance. Many terriers are quick to react to teasing, and even to the normal clumsiness that comes with small children (accidental squeezing of their ears or pulling of whiskers or stepping on their paw). Many terriers are possessive of their food and toys and will defend these from all comers, including children.


http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/dandiedinmontterriers.html
Terriers are not Golden Retrievers. They must be taught at an early age that they are not the rulers of the world. The toughness that makes them suited to killing vermin can frustrate you when you try to teach them anything. Terriers are stubborn and dominant (they want to be the boss) and will make you prove that you can make them do things. You must show them, through absolute consistency, that you mean what you say.

http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/cairnterriers.html
http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/ratterriers.html

[Pithlet]

134. My aunt used to raise and breed terriers.

Fox terriers and Jack russel terriers. Just about the cutest breeds out there. They really aren't for beginners. See, this is why I don't understand why it's so difficult for people who are so knowledgeable about dogs to believe that pit bulls are dangerous. Because, obviously, there are differences among the breeds. I don't claim to be an expert about dogs, but I do love them. I used to spend summers on my aunt's farm. She's raised and bred several breeds, and taught me a lot about dog breeds and raising them. That's part of the reason why I understand so much about pits and why they aren't for everyone. They are friggin dangerous. The fewer who have them, the better. As you say, terriers in the wrong hands are a disaster. That's true for pits, only with pits it's a tragedy.

I really hate seeing threads like this, full of people who think they're no different than any other breed, and the people who are propagating this myth. I see it as very dangerous. I'm not saying they aren't sweet. That they can't make wonderful pets for the right kind of owner. Just that the fact that the breed has exploded, and that there are so many of them out there in the wrong hands, and the fact they do (and they DO!) make up a huge percentage of fatal bite incidents, and that they've exploded in popularity has made for a very bad situation, and that it's leading to cities banning them. It's very bad. I don't think it's good that people think they're sweet and innocent and that anyone can just have one and they're no different than any other dog is good. It's not. And I guess that should be my last post on the matter, because I won't change any minds, but I hope I at least got some people to think on it some more. People should see them for the very difficult and dangerous breed they are, because if they don't, it's a tragedy waiting to happen, and it's a tragedy that scares people into banning them.

[lukasahero]

128. I'll see your http://www..../americanpitbul

and raise you a http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/rhodesianridgebacks.html

Strong-willed and bred to hunt lions, the reviewer uses many of the same words for this dog as for the American Pit Bull.

Oh, and just for giggles, be sure to check out the reviewers comments on the holy Golden Retriever:

"My major concerns would be:

Unstable temperaments. Golden Retrievers used to be about the safest breed you could buy in terms of a good-natured temperament, but sadly, this is no longer the case. Obedience instructors and behavioral consultants are seeing more and more Golden Retrievers who are painfully shy -- or dominant and aggressive. It's the unfortunate result of popularity that the typically glorious Golden Retriever temperament can no longer be taken for granted."

[Pithlet]

130. See, I'd never have that breed, personally, for that reason

Now, if their bites started resulting in more deaths and serious disfigurement way out of proportion to other breeds, I'd bet we'd start seeing them featured in the news more, and cities would probably start contemplating their ban as well.

[lukasahero]

135. But that's the problem

banning the breed will only send the unscrupulous breeders/owners on to the next breed. What we have to address is who is allowed to breed dogs and what is expected of dog owners. The stories used to be about German Shepherds, then it was Dobies, then the Rottweiler became the tough guy breed of choice.

It won't end until we address the root cause and I'm not sure what that is (what the hell motivates a person to want to use dogs aggressively) and I don't have the all the answers but I know that banning the breed is not it.

It's just like everything else, the people who want an aggressive animal will find a way to make one. Short of banning all dogs bigger than a Shih Tzu there will always be a big dog that, if raised to be mean, will be able to inflict real harm... Is there a way we can ban idiots who mistreat their dogs? That would work a lot better.

PS - I'm not going to argue the statistics of "proportion" as it's already been done here. I'd rather get past the finger pointing in order to address the real problems.

[Pithlet]

139. See, I'm not exactly proposing banning breeds, either

I just don't think the problem is all "bad owners" I think that gives people a false sense of security. Of course that's a componant, but it's not the whole story. That's my main problem with threads like this. I think that's why a lot of kids end up dying. People think "I'm not a bad owner". They leave their kids alone with the family pet, who was bred with specific tendencies. Tragedy happens. Enough of these tragedies happen, and voila. Bans. I come into these threads with that very point point, and I end up in these flame wars. Some of us argue that it's in the breed, and we're told it's not. It's clear that different breeds have different tendencies. It's foolish to ignore that. But, I get told it's media bias. Or, that it's no different than other breeds. Whatever. It's the never ending cycle around here. I think ignoring it will lead to the bans that no one wants. But, some don't want to listen. I don't know what else to say.

[lukasahero]

153. But I don't agree that it is just the one breed

And I don't think you do either. That also creates a false sense of security. People think 'ban the pit bulls and there won't be any more problems'! But the pit bulls aren't the only problem. No one should ever leave a dog alone with an infant and if they do, they're too stupid to have a child never mind a dog. Even a small dog can kill an infant. A large dog can kill a child - not because they're mean but because even the best dog will defend itself if necessary.

I think suggesting the problem is specifically with pits misses the mark. The problem is with big dogs that were bred for specific purposes being bred by unscrupulous breeders and raised by either unscrupulous or stupid people. A German Shepherd IS just as capable of killing a small child as a pit bull and given that both can easily be raised to attack, telling people it's just the pit bull that's the problem will set them up for a world of hurt.

Did you see that info about the instable temperament of Goldens I posted upthread? Goldens aren't bad dogs - they're being overbred and people who care nothing for the breed and the temperament are the ones responsible for the next child that gets attacked by a Golden Retriever. It's coming, don't think it isn't. The gentlest dog on the planet, the Newfie, is notorious for being good with children but it is still big enough and DOG enough that if it's raised wrong, it can easily kill a child.

I would be in favor of requiring classes and licensing for dog owners. I'm in favor of even more restrictions on breeders. Let's talk about how we solve the problem, come up with ideas and actually DO something to save our kids and our dogs instead of just talking past each other all the time.

[Pithlet]

50. Misrepresenting the argument isn't helping

No one argues that pits are the only dog capable of attack and injury. They are arguing that pit attacks are more likely to be deadly. And that is a fact. If you want to down play or deny that fact, you do so at the peril of the breed. Every time someone makes that argument, it only reinforces in my mind that restrictions are necessary. Because I do think that pit owners have to be extra vigilant. Of course all dog owners have a responsibility. Any owner of any breed that thinks their dog is harmless and will never attack or harm someone is a fool. But an owner of a pit that thinks that is extra dangerous. Because if their dog bites someone, it's far more likely to kill. I don't understand why some pit bull supporters deny that. It's frustrating to me, because while I'm sure you and others won't believe it, I love dogs. I don't want to see anyone hurt by bannings or restrictions. But, if too many pits are in the hands of irresponsible owners, something has to be done. Public safety is more important. I'm not sure if I support outright banning, because I don't know how effective that would be, but I do think something has to be done before more lives are lost, and more people are disabled and disfigured. I don't have a problem with pit bulls in the hands of experienced dog owners who understand the breed and take proper precautions.

[guitar man]

42. harboring a viscious animal

is illegal in a lot of places, I don't know if it was illegal where you were or not, but I certainly would not have allowed any animal to terrorize me or my family for a decade. I guarantee I would have put a stop to it one way or another. I'm sorry you went through that, no one should have to live in fear of someone else's vicious animal, no matter what kind of animal it might be.

[seabeyond]

45. and what? they pick up the animal a couple times when they are able to catch

it out and about. the owner retrieves and the whole cycle starts again? he has a right. what would you suggest, we kill the animal to protect our children. we were aware the possibility was there, that is for sure. when i saw a gate open and possibility and i HAD to mow front lawn, by their property, i did with hubby around and his gun handy.... that is how we got to live. my other neighbor with his rot has pit attack it. now that one is telling the other, ..... you may be a crazy son of a bitch with guns, but i am crazier. pit gets out, i start shooting. now we have a couple macho males, my children, guns and pits. oh joy

but they have their fuckin rights.

no, it is not a way a family should have to live. just an honest acknowledgement from the advocates of pit bulls and what it does in a community when an "owner is a bad owner" goes a long way.

[supernova]

47. Agree with you 100% seabeyond

on this issue.

The problem is many times, for those if us who don't have dogs and who don't really understand them, we don't know what kind of dog owner we live next to, until sadly it's too late.

You shouldn't AT ALL have to find out your neighbor is an asshole owner only after the dog sinks its teeth into you or even acts aggressively toward you in your own yard. That plain shouldn't happen. Period.

[seabeyond]

49. look at peacenikki post. i am talking about threat to my family, he/she is saying i am unreasonable

this.... is what it is dealing with pit owners and threat to me.... threat to children.... threat to a walker trying to enjoy the outdoors, exercise or whatever. this is what we get dealing with these animals.

[guitar man]

54. I had the same problem

with an owner of a couple crazy German Shepards, it didn't go on fo 10 years though, I had a serious face to face conversation with him and the problem went away. A bad dog is a bad dog, regardless of breed. It is a serious issue when you're confronted with it, no doubt, but it is a case by case issue, getting rid of a "breed" of dog doesn't solve anything. Trust me, the assholes that think it's cool to have a mean dog will find another to exploit soon enough.

[supernova]

56. That worked but

what do you do when talking to the owner doesn't do any good? The same thing keeps happening.

[seabeyond]

58. exactly.... long story. and we did talk to them. i always went to the child....

he was open to communication. father was not. father brought pit to me one day when i told him i was afraid of the dog. he is telling me to pet and i dont want to. he tells me likes white people, just not n*ggers...... i am thinking hubby and kids have black blood even though they look white.... does that mean pit is going after them

when dealing with that

it is a whole other story

not all are reasonable.

and we still have to live together.

[guitar man]

60. I told him

if he didn't keep his dogs off my property and they came back over there menacing my animals that I was going to shoot the dogs and then I was going to kick his fucking ass. I lived in a rural area at the time and our local law enforcement was a couple of fat, spineless doughnut eaters. By then, I had had enough. I know most here probably don't approve of my methodology, but it got the problem solved.

[seabeyond]

62. that is how we resolved it with the three men in neighborhood. so they all had their guns ready

i felt like i was living in a war zone, or the old west. was abusrd. and children sat in the middle.

[seabeyond]

57. again, i am not advocating getting rid of breed. never have. never will

if it were a rot, german shepard, i agree. there are characteristics of the pit that makes a mauling a little more dangerous than MOST all other breeds. that is a reality.

[Critters2]

149. I'm sure the family whose baby was mauled to death would find this amusing nt.

[cwydro]

36. I wish we could ban

the people who mistreat them and fight them.

[Barack_America]

39. Ban America's Sweetheart breed?

In America, the Pit Bull flourished. It was one of the most popular breeds, highly prized by a wide variety of people. The Pit Bull was used to represent the US in WW1 artwork; popular companies like RCA and the Buster Brown Shoe Company used the breed as their mascots. A Pit Bull named Petie starred in the popular children's television series, Our Gang; a Pit Bull mix named Stubby became a decorated WWI hero. Pit Bulls accompanied pioneer familes on their explorations. Laura Ingalls Wilder of the popular Little House books owned a working Pit Bulldog named Jack. Famous individuals like Theodore Roosevelt and Helen Keller owned the breed. It was during this time that the Pit Bull truly became America's sweetheart breed, admired, respected and loved.

http://www.bulldogbreeds.com/americanpitbullterrier.html

It's not the breed, it's the breeders. Also, the irresponsible owners. I know AmStaffs from responsible breeders and belonging to responsible owners. These dogs are the gentlest, most well behaved animals I have ever met.

[seabeyond]

43. guns dont kill people, people kill people. so worthless as a person/kid is being mauled. n/t

[Barack_America]

48. I'm sorry, but I don't follow. nt

[seabeyond]

52. we say it isnt the dogs, it is the owners. but when being mauled by a strong

agressive dog, it really doesnt matter at that point why the dog is chewing on you.

[Barack_America]

59. True. But also remember that banning guns doesn't actually cut down on the number of guns...

People simply obtain them illegally.

The problem with those pit bull bans is that they also extend to mixes and any dog that looks like it *might* be a pit. Well, I've got a pit mix sitting on my couch beside me. She is the most loyal, sweetest and gentle dog you'll ever meet. If my city enacts a pit bull ban that gives them the right to come and take her off of my couch to kill her, you can bet your ass that I will be buying guns (even if I have to do so illegally). And I will be protecting her with those guns until I can move elsewhere.

[seabeyond]

61. i am not and never have advocated banning any breed. my issue is "honesty" in arguing

or discussing the pit. there is some serious issues with pits. if people breezily say, oh they are so sweet and dismiss the issues of pits in our neighborhoods then they will eventually be banned.

[Barack_America]

66. I was trying to make the distinction between breeders of "old stock"...

And the current common variety pit.

I was arguing that the better solution is to go after the breeders rather than the owners and the dogs themselves (unless, of course, they are demonstrated to be problem dogs). All dog breeds would benefit from better regulation of all breeders and all breeding conditions. Furthermore, everyone and every dog would also benefit from a government-funded low-cost spay and neutering program (and added incentives to have dogs spayed/neutered). Just think of how much money such a program would eventually save us in animal control alone.

[Pithlet]

68. I agree. This would help.

The way our country deals with pet overpopulation and animal cruelty is a travesty. Cracking down on unscrupulous breeders and making it easier for people to spay and neuter, and better education about responsible ownership would certainly go a long way.

[Crabby Appleton]

51. Ban bad owners. nt

[bobd0]

64. I have three and I won't stand for any ban

Breed specific legislation is unlawful in NJ. From time to time I have to remind my state legislators of that fact.

Other breeds bite more often and many times people blame Pits in attacks that are actually done by other breeds. People have been conditioned to blame Pits for everything even when the dog is actually a Rottweiler, Bulldog, Boxer, or any of several other muscular breeds. Pure Pit Bulls are rare and the problem with attacks is negligent or abusive owners, not the dogs.

You could argue that Pits are, on average, more aggressive toward other dogs than some other breeds but I've worked with them over the years and I can say based on my experience that Pits really love people.

Don't blame the dog. Blame the owner. Ban bad dog owners. NO ONE IS GOING TO GET AWAY WITH "BANNING" MY DOGS.

[a la izquierda]

63. Part of the problem is that pit bulls and other "bully"

breeds are different types of dogs than your average Lab or Golden Retriever. They can be stubborn, willful and of course, they're incredibly strong. Mix them with any other type of dog and you have to consider the mentalities of the different types of dog you've got in one body, plus the genetics of the dog itself. And people frequently want a pit bull, but do not want to learn how to deal with its quirks and breed characteristics. They're NOT a lab or a chihuahua and shouldn't be expected to behave like one; you have to work differently with these types of dogs and people are often far too lazy to do so. If the dog is not trained right from day one, or rehabilitated properly by reputable individuals, you're looking for disaster. With any dog, neglect will lead to problems.


Case in point: my husband and I found a dog that looked to us like it could be a pitbull. I was mildly concerned and my husband, who has worked for years with dogs, was too. The dog was not permitted in the house for the first few days when I was home alone because he would growl at me when I walked by him. With everyone else, he was fine. After a few days, trips to the vet and a session with a trainer, we determined if he did not begin behaving with me, it was time for a no-kill shelter. Well, on 4th of July 2002, fireworks scared the bejeezus out of that dog, and he lept into bed with me and hasn't left my side since. Rigorous private training, regular vet trips and constant correction at home have turned this once skittish guy into quite possibly the world's best dog (IMHO). He's not a pitbull, as it turns out, but a boxer/English bulldog--still a powerful breed nonetheless, but one who will let kids pull on his ears and tail and couldn't care less who comes in our yard. We've had him for 6 years now and he's old now...

[lukasahero]

74. "They can be stubborn, willful and of course, they're incredibly strong."

I get the point of your post, however, your assertion that Bullies are "not your average Lab or Golden Retriever" warranted some investigation on my part. FTR, I had a Lab (best dog of my life) and I know they can be stubborn, willful and strong. As ARE most of the (improperly trained) Golden Retrievers I know. (I've met a few well-trained Goldens but most people think they "just turn out that way" and don't put the time and effort required into training them.) All that said, the following quotes about Bullies and other dog personalities come courtesy of http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds.html

"The American Pit Bull Terrier is a companion and family dog. Originally bred to "bait" bulls, the breed evolved into all-around farm dogs, and later moved into the house to become "nanny dogs" because they were so gentle around children."

"These dogs love people and have no idea that their size is something of a deterrent to being a lap dog."

"The Bull Terrier was originally developed in the 19th century as a fighting dog and, later, a fashionable companion for gentlemen, but these days he's a family companion and show dog."

"Never one to take a backseat to anyone or anything, the Bull Terrier is a friendly, feisty extrovert who's always ready for a good time, and always happy to see you."

-- Akita (up to 130 lbs): "The Akita is a large and powerful dog with a noble and intimidating presence...The Akita does not back down from challenges and does not frighten easily...The Akita is a bold and willful dog, naturally wary of strangers but extremely loyal to his family...He tends to be aggressive toward other dogs...The naturally protective Akita has a propensity to become aggressive if allowed, or if he isn't raised properly..."

Rhodesian Ridgebacks (up to 85 lbs): "Because of their size, intelligence, and power, Rhodesian Ridgebacks aren't recommended for first-time or timid owners...he can still be aggressive toward strange animals outside the family, even if he's well socialized and trained...can be stubborn and strong willed

Coonhound (up to 100 lbs): "He can be headstrong and likes to have his own way..."

Weimaraner (up to 85 lbs): "The typical Weimaraner is...assertive, smart, restless, and willful...Aggression and shyness are temperament flaws that are seen in this breed."

Mastiff (up to 220 lbs): "...the Mastiff...can become shy, fearful, or aggressive if mishandled."

Chow Chow (up to 70 lbs): "This is, however, a highly territorial and protective breed...A Chow Chow must be extensively socialized--introduced to new people, dogs, and situations--as a puppy if he's going to be safe and relaxed as an adult."

Shar-Pei (up to 55 lbs): "...the Shar-Pei is also independent and strong willed... He is protective of his family...and will respond to threats. Because he once was used as a pit-fighting dog, he can be aggressive toward other canines."

Plott(hound) (up to 75 lbs): "...he's not only strong but fierce in the hunt...That can translate to dominant and aggressive behavior if he's not properly socialized..."

Please, owners of the above mentioned dogs, don't freak out. My point is, there are a lot of dogs that "CAN BE stubborn, willful and incredibly strong". EVERY dog, and especially large breeds, needs to be trained and socialized early. And all large breed dog can cause as much damage as any other.

Seriously, the people suggesting the "no bad dogs, only bad owners" rule is a false premise need to educate themselves. Banning pit bulls will not stop the problem as the "bad owners" just move on to exploit and abuse the protective/aggressive traits of the next breed du jour. There are other, better ways to resolve the problem that creates an aggressive dog but it's not as simple as banning the breed so people don't want to talk about it. America - land of "I want the easy way out".

[PeaceNikki]

75. Perfect and thank you.

:applause:

[a la izquierda]

91. Okay, it was meant for a comparison with...

a typical "family dog".
I don't advocate banning any dog breed.:eyes:

Edit: We're on the same team here...

[YvonneCa]

65. Probably. Here's the link to the recent Nevada story...

... http://www.lvrj.com/news/28441889.html

A horrible thing happened. IMO, it's not as simple as choosing which side to blame. I LOVE dogs, and have always had them in my family.

I'm also now a grandma...and this story makes me cry.

[IndianaJones]

70. hell yeah they should be banned.nt.

[undeterred]

71. Maybe you haven't been around here long enough

to know what a contentious topic this is.

I am a dog lover but I am frankly afraid of pit bulls. My dog died recently and I wanted to adopt a rescue- there were tons of pits available but I chose a lab. When I've been around agressive dogs at the dog park, it can be any kind of dog, but there seems to be more problems with pit bulls than other breeds.

And maybe the problem is with pit bull owners. About 2 years ago someone in our area was arrested who had 50 + pits on his property for fighting. This seems to crop up everywhere. Some were destroyed and others rehomed. I just can't lose my fear of them.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

73. How about we ban assholes who want to ban pit bulls?

That'd make the world a better place.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. Of Course Not. Doing So Would Be Irrational, Ignorant, Extreme And Just Plain Dumb.

The letter writer was nothing more than an irrational ignoramus.

[tblue37]

79. I know many sweet, loving, loyal pit bulls.

The problem is the owners, not the dogs.

My neighbor just adopted a 1 1/2-year-old pit bull mix, and he is darned near the sweetest dog I have ever met. (He is also the size of a great Dane!) Every time I see him I have to run over and kiss his massive skull. He is such a sweet baby. Another pit bull, 1-year-old Lucy, comes over to play with him sometimes. She is a sweetie, too. Another (now moved) neighbor had a pit bull named Mindy who used to come over to play with me--and I used to go to her back yard to play with her. She bounded and leapt like a little deer. God, those animals can be so darned adorable!

[Skittles]

127. I'm taking care of a neighbor's pit bull next week while he is on vacation

I've had several encounters with this dog and he is very sweet - I hear you on that massive scull, and I must add they have extremely expressive eyes too

[Critters2]

150. And a famly in Nevada knows one that mauled a baby to death.

Whose experience should we give more weight?

[tblue37]

156. But *any* dog can do that. Even the gentle, loyal family collie

or dachshund should never be left alone with a baby or small child. I had an Afghan Hound when my two kids were babies and toddlers. I never had them in the same room with him unless I was there, and never let them approach him unless I was within arm's reach.

When I was divorced, my ex kept the dog, because I was moving into a tiny poor person apartment. When my kids were at their dad's house for his time with them, each child was bitten by the dog (on separate occasions). In both cases, the toddler/preschooler tripped over the dog while he was asleep. He was old and arthritic, so it hurt him. He didn't bite them badly, but he did snap and nip them as they startled (and hurt) him awake. Also, a family dog can feel jealous of a new child.

Even more dangerous is if a small child is allowed to wrestle with a large family dog and starts running and squealing. Dogs are, after all, wolves at heart. When something small runs from them and squeals, it sounds and looks like prey. No matter how good a dog is, its predatory instincts can be triggered. I adore dogs, but even with my own dogs (when I have had them) and with friendly neighborhood dogs, I have always been aware of the possibility that one could snap for some reason and become dangerous. Even a medium sized dog can kill a human, so I have a great deal of respect for their power.

The main thing with pit bulls is that they are unusually powerful. The woman who just adopted that pit bull mix used to have a sweetheart of an English bulldog (named Georgia). I adored Georgia, and we often wrestled together, but I never reached over her fence to pet her or came into her house until her owner had her in hand, because a dog's territorial and protective instincts can overwhelm its familiarity and friendliness. I learned that with my Afghan Hound, who snapped at a friend of mine whom he normally loved when she reached over our backyard fence to him while passing by the house one day. So I never took chances with Georgia, because if she had snapped at my hand with those massive, viselike jaws, I would have lost it.

Bulldogs have many health problems and unusually short life spans (4 or 5 years). Georgia's health deteriorated rapidly at age 4, and she became erratic--at one point even going for her owner's face! Fortunately the owner had great reflexes and got out of her way in time. Georgia was suffering from something that affected her brain and caused her, it appeared, to experience something like hallucinations. She had to be put to sleep because of her rapid decline.

Parents need to be aware that any dog, no matter how good, can harm or even kill a baby or small child, and should never allow small kids to mess around with, or even be around, the dog without supervision. A small dog might not kill, but it can certainly harm. A friend’s longhaired dachshund bit my leg about a month ago. He normally likes me and plays charmingly with me, but he is not particularly bright and not well trained, and for some reason (maybe because I had a cane and was carrying a large bag) didn’t recognize me that day. It was a severe bite that took over two weeks to completely heal, and I will bear the scar to my grave.

Pit bulls and other such dogs can do more damage because they are larger and more powerful. Therefore, an encounter with such a dog is more likely to kill if it goes bad. But a pit bull is no more likely to go bad than any other dog. Actually, in my 58 years I remember reading stories of Great Danesgetting loose and chasing down and killing--sometimes even partially eating--kids as old as 10 or 12. Yet no one has suggested banning Great Danes (dogs I also love, BTW, and would not like to see banned).

[Lucian]

87. Woah...

:popcorn:

[flvegan]

92. Welcome to DU!

We have the pit bull flamewars at least once a month.

[Lucian]

97. Hey flvegan...

:hi:

[uppityperson]

93. Can you pick out a pitbull? Pit Bull Search and Rescue Team, stats for big dogs(ATTS)

Can you find the Pit Bull games:
http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html
http://members.aol.com/radogz/find.html

Pitbull game, with facts like "Pit bull is not a breed, it is a term used to describe 3 different breeds with similar characteristics. American Pit Bull Terrier, American Staffordshire Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier"
"In 2002 the American Temperamant Testing Society (ATTS) statistics listed that APBTs, AMSTAFFs and Rottweilers were all in the 82nd %,meaning 80%+ of the dogs passed the temperament test. That is a very high percentage, esp when compared to breeds which are common family dogs , such as Golden Retrievers and Bichon Frise, which tested at 77%, Chihuahuas 71%, Greyhounds 81%, Lhasa Apsos 71%" :
http://www.understand-a-bull.com/Findthebull/findpitbull_v3.html

Pit Bull Search and Rescue Team (Lots of good info)
http://www.forpitssake.org/frame.html
http://www.forpitssake.org/gallery.html

ATTS http://www.atts.org/
2007 stats for some big dog since big dogs can cause more damage.
Tested, passed, fail, % passed
AMERICAN PIT BULL TERRIER 586, 494, 92, 84.3%
AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIE 548,457,91, 83.4%
STAFFORDSHIRE BULL TERRIER 80,71,9, 88.8%
GERMAN SHORTHAIRED POINTER 122, 93, 29, 76.2%
GOLDEN RETRIEVER 703,592,111,84.2%
GREAT DANE 264, 209, 55, 79.2%
LABRADOR RETRIEVER 705, 647,58, 91.8%

[Puregonzo1188]

104. How does one ban a breed of dogs?

[Crazy4sea]

106. Bad owners....

There are all differnt types of dogs just as there are different types of owners, I have taken in abused/rescue animals all my life (my parents did as well) EVERY pet I ever had no matter had badly they were abused/tortured/mistreated became the BEST companions and all it took was love and gentleness with them. They want to please us and do things that please us if you reward negative behavior and never give any rewards for good behavior they learn that you "like" them when they perform bad deeds.

I'm against Breed Specific Legislation... this is happening with all differnt breeds, including Rottweilers, American Staffordshire Bull Terriers ("Pit Bulls"), Chow Chows, German Shepherd Dogs, and Doberman Pinschers, and the list is growing. Certain insurance companies (states vary) will not issue home owners insurance if you have certain breeds of dog.

Here are a few links....
http://www.sorryagain.com/
http://www.pbrc.net/breedspecific.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL1trl1FMUw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWyz9WAIakQ
The last video has a few potentially disturbing images until 1:37 into to.

The breed of the animal should not be in question the character of the owner should be.

[uppityperson]

109. Thanks for posting that.

I tire of people saying all there is to recommend any type dog is anecdotal stories, when all they have to diss a type is the same. Thanks for your post

[Crazy4sea]

131. You are quite welcome n/t

[readmoreoften]

110. Yeah, the vets wanted to kill a 6 week old puppy I found because he "had pitbull in him"

and he was undisciplined and aggressive.

But we didn't let them give him 'the pink juice' and we nurtured him until we found him a good home. He's got a great owner and is a loving dog.

And it turned out that he wasn't even a pit. He's part blackmouth, part mutt.

Moral of the story? Every dog that scares you and doesn't look like a doberman isn't a goddamn pit.

[uppityperson]

112. Indeed. I've been posting stories, info about that also.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4026431&mesg_id=4030228

[jxnmsdemguy65]

113. yes, ban 'em

Yes, I think they should be banned. A few weeks, I was walking in my gym's low income neighborhood and this little girl and her mom were walking with their little dog. All of a sudden they went by this house were folks were coming home, and out of the door bolts this pit bull and basically chomps the little dog's head off in front of the little girl and their mom. Poor girl was screaming and crying her eyes out. Everyone was scared shitless. I filed a report with the police and learned that the owner of the pit bull had been charged with the leash law.

[nomaco-10]

137. I JUST HAD A FEMALE PITBULL.....

come to my door step this afternoon! It was a female with very low hanging teets that were hanging down so low that it was apparent she had given birth in recent weeks. Although her teets weren't wet, it was clear that whoever owned her, could not haven given a shit what happened to her after she gave birth. SHE WAS EMACIATED AND DEHYDRATED. It was one of the worst animal neglect cases I have ever seen in my sleepy little suburban neighborhood in the ten years that I've lived here..

Is it the economy, or more to my thinking, we have just become a nation of self absorbed fucktards since bush stole the election and set the tone of the current mood of the country.

I fed her four cans of mighty dog and a good portion of a 5 lb. bag of paul newman dry dog food I bought on close out at my local krogers. I also filled a bowl of cool water which she drank like she was completely dehydrated. She looked like a dog an episode of animal planet rescue.

I called the local humane society, WHICH IS A JOKE by the way. You may sit on their menu line for ten minutes before you are met with another 10 minutes of recorded messages which will also end you up into being sent to another number that doesn't even let you leave a recorded message.

The bush* years, what a horrendous nightmare on EVERY level it's been for eight long fucking years. I hate them and every fucking voter that votes for mcsame/palin this go around for so many vast and various reasons.

[progressivebydesign]

138. A 72 y.o. woman near Seattle was nearly killed by someone's family pet pit bulls last week.

She was walking from a bus stop and was attacked and nearly killed by two cute little pit bulls who got out of their house. The dogs had never posed a problem before. They attacked her so badly that it broker her jaw, and her arm, and had at least 90 stitches to her face, I don't know if she'll survive. She did nothing.. was walking back from a bus stop past their house.

The problem is not the owners in this case, the dogs were obviously well cared for and the pics made them look like happy little pets. The problem is in the breed. Sorry.

Dogs have innate traits that come with each breed. Labradors.. usually swim, retrieve, and are good family dogs. Herding dogs? They herd, chase, love to play and are intense. Terriers? Chase, dig, and can be bad with small animals. Etc. etc. etc.

It's NOT the pit bulls fault, in that they have the trait and the physique to kill rather than bite. Yeah.. poodles bite more than Pit bulls, but when is the last time you heard about a poodle killing an elderly woman walking out to get her paper, or kill a child in a nearby yard?

Unfortunately, the gangsta chic thing has spread into mainstream, and people think it's cool to own them... but it's impossible to know if yours has that timebomb ticking in its genetics.. or traits.

I don't know that answer.. but something has to be done.

[RidinMyDonkey]

142. Don't punish the responsilble dog owners by banning breeds

Just try telling my kids, or any kid who loves their Pit bull doggy that they can't have them anymore. I'm pretty sure if I took their puppy away they'd kill me in my sleep. Pits are less dangerous.

In all seriousness though, in the time I've had with my dog I can't be in favor of banning them. The dog I have now is the sweetest, most tolerant dog I've ever had. When the kids were younger they would try and make her give them rides. They'd sit on her back and pull on her ears and tail. No matter how many times I told them to stop they kept on doing it. So, yes, I secretly hoped the dog would say enough is enough and finally throw them off her back and they'd learn not to hurt her. But she never so much as growled at them. Not once.

Thank god I live someplace sane where banning isn't a question. But if it was, I think I'd move before I gave up my dog. She's a part of my family. I feel awful for those poor people in LV who may be forced to give up theirs.

[seabeyond]

154. i actually thought you would be the first pro pit to say you felt awful for the family whose baby

was mauled and that they had to experience such a traumatic event. but no.....

it is the family of pit owners that you feel empathy for

this is what really bothers me on these threads. the life of others truly seems and appears to take a backseat of a dog.

[DailyGrind51]

145. Only those wearing lipstick!

[old mark]

152. Look, I have a Great Dane/Doberman mix who weighs 115 lbs,

and was left at a shelter because people were terrified of him when he was growing up. He is the sweetest dog I have ever owned. He sleeps in bed with us, sits next to me on the sofa watching TV (he is taller)and is sometimes afraid of the cat.
He is a big, cuddley goof who barks very loud at everyone who comes near our house, but has never bitten anyone.

It is asshole humans who make bad dogs.

Besides, look at efforts to ban alcohol, various drugs, various guns, etc. How well did that work?
Might as well try to ban human stupidity.

mark