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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:25 PM
Original message
What's with all the 'economy isn't so bad' replies?
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 10:26 PM by Newsjock
DU is currently bursting at the seams with threads about the economic meltdown. Many analyses suggest that we haven't seen such financial problems since the Great Depression, and there are many indications that there's a lot more pain to come.

Yet in the middle of all this, there seems to be one emerging constant: Someone is bound to jump into the thread and proclaim that, no, the economy isn't really as bad as it's being made out to be. We're at the bottom of the market. The housing crisis is almost over. No more banks or brokerages are on the brink of collapse.

The first couple of times I saw this, I was mildly amused. Now that I'm seeing it more often, I'm more curious than amused. Do people really not believe that we are in dangerously uncharted financial waters? Or is there an organized effort from "somewhere" to defuse the meme that the economy is in the crapper?

Lest I paint this as a red vs. blue issue, I'll point out that capitalists of all political persuasions can stand to benefit from manipulating the markets (upward or downward), and the events of recent years have clearly shown us that the other side has no monopoly on a lack of business ethics.

No, I'm not calling anyone out, and if you reply to this thread, you shouldn't do so either. But I'm interested in seeing some dialogue on why we have such disagreement (or is it denial?) over the state of our economy.

P.S.: If you care, I currently own no stocks.

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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
1. SOme of this is denial
we saw it in the 1929-32 period as well

Some of it is the fact that some are ahem, centrist democrats, that believe in this free hand of the market place. The theory is twitching on the floor, if not dead, very near to it. So this is a collapse of what has been real core believes for some folks

Hope that helps
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trixie Donating Member (696 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. I haven't seen that her at DU
but I have seen it with my staff. I live in a solid blue area but work in a rural red area. You know the religious right. I have been grandfathered in with an old fashion government pension. The GOP has made sure we have actually done quite well in that regard. Anyway most of our staff now have been hired with the new fangled pension that is really a 401k. Why is it the people who will be wiped out tend to be GOP? Isn't it Reagan who said his political strategy was to go after the group that is trained to blindly follow - the religious right? Talk about followers.
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Worse than greath depression.
That's what I've heard people slip into conversation lately. It's weird how everyone's trying to feel their way through this thing. No one knows are we there yet.

I haven't noticed the number of cheery posts, but maybe I've missed it. I wonder if there isn't a natural desire to minimized problems?
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. could well be
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 11:08 PM by Two Americas
In contrast to the 30's, today we have lost our industrial base, our infrastructure is crumbling, our farming communities are under duress, human scale communities and neighborhoods are largely gone, and our public transportation system has been dismantled. In the 30's all of those existed to rebuild upon.

I am seeing a sea change in public opinion over the last few days, and am hearing "we need another New Deal" more and more often. The general public is moving ahead of and to the left of the activist community and the party now. If the Democrats can get ahead of that wave and move strongly to the left, the party can win office and govern. If on the other hand, the war on the leftists and the moving to the right and the wooing of the middle continues, chances are not so good. I am not advocating this, I am predicting it.
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EV_Ares Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, I haven't seen that yet on here but and this is my opinion. When you have
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 10:34 PM by EV_Ares
banks & insurance companies folding and another 1000 banks expected to fold, not good. When you have unemployment over 6%, not good. When you have 1000s losing their homes, not good. Now, you are going to have 1000s more losing their jobs and we are not at the end yet along with the stock market losing over a 1000 points in the last few weeks.

This is just the US, things are also bad in europe and Americans have over 50% more invested in international funds in their portfolios this year.

I guess if you have a good income, are OK with your mortgage right now, no money problems, the economy looks good. As McCain says the fundamentals are good for you. However, if your neighbor is losing his job, falling behind on his mortgage, can't afford to fill his tank up, the fundamentals are not so good for him.

Guess depends on your perspective. For me, I am doing OK but wouldn't say the economy is good by any means based on what I see, hear and know.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Ignore them.
They'll usually follow their cheerleading up with an account of what whizbangs they are about saving and investing. Oh yes, they were struggling grad students, but they saved their pennies and invested them (smartly, of course) in the Almighty Market. That they've never faced unemployment or a health care crisis does not faze their beautiful capitalism lovin' minds. Naturally, they are savvy consumers who shun the latest gizmos and McMansions. They have nothing but scorn for people who have any debt for any reason.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. I call it "sounds rationalization"
Some people gain social power by always appearing to remain calm and to 'sound rational.' This is actually a huge reactionary trait. In other words, someone extrapolates a worst case scenario from actual reports or data and the person will 'sounds rationalize' them with "you're hysterical, there is no scenario at all, there was no report, there is no data, you're delusional" and so forth.

It's a characteristic of controlling, arrogant people who hope to sound rational in order to gain power over a person. Abusive spouses do this (why are you crying, I just gave you a little tap on the cheek, there you go exaggerating again...)
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. very good
Great analysis there. Had never thought of it that way. Yes, the person who seems unfazed and in control projects an image of being more powerful. Dismissing others as "whiners" and "alarmists" and such implies weakness on their part and diminishes them.
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. Ah, the wisdom learned on a picket line...
How angry those that scab become when they don't want to do what's right.

Week one: I don't get the big deal, they don't want to make a 'contract'? So what? They already put it in writing! I have an email right here that says we get all our benefits. We'll could all take BigCorp to court if they cut our benefits, you think they wanna mess with ME???

Week two: Yeah, so what. I'm crossing the picket line. That's because there's nothing to fight for. These people are lunatics. I love BigCorp. I trust BigCorp. In fact, they just gave all of us who stayed $2000 bonuses for no reason at all.

Week three: I'm sick of those wimpy screaming socialists. I hope they freeze to death.

Week twelve: I'm sure glad they fired all those socialists. Now we have some peace and quiet.

Week thirteen: I f'in hate those goddamn socialists!1! BigCorp spend so much money fighting them that they have no choice but to cut our benefits! I hate unions! Everything is fine until they come along!
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. (TA smacks forehead)
Yes, of course. Have been there.

It is the same struggle in different guises. That is why the "wish list" approach of separate and isolated causes that modern liberalism has been taking has failed so miserably.

I think that the right wing free markets - personal responsibility - bootstraps - deregulation ideology is now toast. But so is our pathetically weak approach in response to it. This is going to be a big adjustment for many, and the more politically active and aware people are the harder the adjustment is going to be.
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lurky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:41 PM
Response to Original message
7. People have a lot riding on this.
Life savings invested in homes, the stock market. They may be hanging on dearly to a job or business that could go away if things get any worse. They may not be able to retire because their 401k just lost half its value.

They have so much at stake that they can't bear to see how bad things are and could become. This is painful stuff, and a lot of people's lives are hanging in the balance.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. Aren't you glad Social Security wasn't privatized?
In a way, this collapse doesn't affect the Middle Class (yet) becaue we were already hurting. Now, it's the Upper Class that have started (as Phil Gramm would say) "whining".

This horrible economy doesn't "seem" so bad because unlike previous crashes this one is in stages. It hurt you and me first, so the fat ct could sit back and say "it's all good!" and then it hit the fat cats, but they are deferring the "hit" back down to us later so they can say "the future looks good".

You and I are the ones who will get screwed, while the fat cats will only get fatter. All brought to you by the neo-con/Libertarian "voodoo" economists.

The rich continue to get richer, and the poor continue to get poorer. Unless we return to "bottom-up" economics that worked for FDR and so many others, like Obama wants to do.
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ben_meyers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:45 PM
Response to Original message
9. It may depend on your age
Some of us "seniors" have been through times like this in the past, as recently as 1987 in fact. In the absence of 24/7 cable and wide availability of the INTERNET though, many people were either unaware or had no place to rant and rave about it.

I wish I could go back and retrieve some of the postings to the BBS and Usenet groups I read and made on my old 8088 Compaq Portable (that must have weighed 50 lbs) w/300 baud dial up on my 9.95 an hour Compuserve account in those days.

The conversations haven't changed that much. Many thought that the world was coming to an end then too.

Maybe look up Black Monday, Oct. 19 1987, the collapse of the entire S&L system and the Resolution Trust Corporation for a little perspective.
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Two Americas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. world coming to an end?
Edited on Wed Sep-17-08 10:58 PM by Two Americas
I don't think people are saying the world is coming to an end, rather they are seeing hard times coming. They have been consistently right about that - times are hard, have been hard and are getting harder. If that is not true for you, you are fortunate. But your personal experience does not make the other people wrong. (Assuming you do not think that this has been good times over the last decade or so. It has not. 96% of Americans have seen a drop in real income over the last 8 years, for but one example.)
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 12:42 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. Of course the world is coming to an end
Transitions are end points. They are painful and difficult - for a few they may even prove fatal - but they are also necessary. Imbalances have arisen in this country, imbalances that are so extreme that they can't be sustained, and if something can't be sustained, it will eventually collapse. Economic inequity, corporate control, peak oil, global climate change, unchecked militarism, all of these are signs that we've entered a time of transition.

People generally do not voluntarily change when times are good. It's not in their immediate best interest, and in most cases taking that immediate best interest is the right thing to do. While I think this is more true of conservatives than progressives, who are usually more likely to be looking beyond the horizon, it's not something that either party has a monopoly on, unfortunately.

However, when times get tough, well, ... you know the song. A lot of people think that a Depression is going to look a lot like the 1930s - shanty towns, railroad bums, unions and union busting, prohibition, gangsters. It might, but I rather doubt it. There will be a lot of dislocation and homelessness - and I'm right there with JH Kunstler in predicting that the suburbs will end up becoming the next slums by the time this is all over with, but its also going to force a lot of people to think about what exactly it is that they want in their lives.

Some of the changes are already happening - Generation Y has such a radically different view of work from the Boomers that generational tensions are very high, and the Gen Y approach is, I suspect, their own adaptions to the changes that are already underway and will continue to do so (note: at 45, I'm at the tail end of the Boomer generation, so this isn't some cockcrowing about the superiority of Gen Y here). The Millenials (children born after 2000) will grow up into an even stranger world. Theirs is a generation that has never NOT been connected, has never not known computers and instant communications in their lives. They will find the idea of having to "go" to work downright bizarre - the work's right there, after all, quite literally at their fingertips - and even being tied to a laptop will seem quaint to them by the time they reach adulthood.

The world that we occupy right now can't handle them. Our notions of business were laid out in the 1930s, shaped in the 1960s, and were already crumbling by the 1990s. Money, as we think of it now, will be simply another abstraction to them, and our existing social structures - governmental, political, corporate - will seem arbitrary, capricious and ultimately hackable. I wrote back in 2001 that one of the most significant changes taking place is the redefinition of value in our society, and here it is 2008 and not surprisingly, it is ultimately the notion of value that is in dispute at the heart of the banking crisis.

I wrote a downer of an article a little further up this thread, but I'll put out the complement to that here - it is the end of the world as we know it. Yay! For all the devastation that its going to cause, its time and past time that it happens.

Kurt Cagle
Online Editor, O'Reilly Media
www.oreilly.com
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. Matters not what they say
The reality of the seriousness of the current financial situation will only become more apparent to more sectors of the economy as its effects ripple through.

Some see themselves as insulated from any trauma the downturn may present to them personally as they 'are doing okay' currently. Unfortunately, this has no actual bearing how things will be three, six, twelve months from now.

It took three years for the effect of October '29 to be fully realized.

Some analysts see further unwinding in the markets for another six to nine months.

We haven't heard from the unregulated hedge funds as to how sound they remain, as they report to no one except their investors. The SEC is moving to force them to report short sales as some of these funds are aggressively beating the markets down with massive short sales, further inducing panic.

And some just want to close their ears and eyes and pretend it just ain't happening.

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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. I could also ask "What's with all the doomsday talk?" We are..
in a completely new place in economic history and nobody has any idea what the next 6 months will look like, much less the next 6 years. Anything can happen.

There is a lot of very bad news-- wages are taking a serious downturn, basic research is down nationwide, federal debt and current accounts are spiralling completely out of control and just about all common indicators are going belly up. And there's a serious liquidity crisis already here.

But, the liquidity crisis is probably temporary-- everyone is holding on to their cash until they can see what it is buying, but plenty of cash is out there for investment when the smoke clears.

Fundamental areas, like agriculture, manufacturing, construction... are on hold for a while, but not in any worse shape than three weeks ago and are ready to bounce back.

Gee, there ARE financial firms in good enough shape that they can buy Merrill and Lehman at those bargain basement prices.

Yes, we culd be in for a worldwide depression, but we could also be in for a massive readjustment, after which the financial world will look different, but keeps on truckin'

What I am personally convinced of, though, is that no matter what happens, the US will eventually lose its "right" to the standard of living to which it has become accustomed-- that standard of living and resource usage is so far out of line globally that it demands adjustment.

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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
15. I'll tell you why: there are rethuglicans and freepers on this board calling themselves dems.
:puke:
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anitar1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-17-08 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
17. After hearing that the Feds are considering printing
more money,which will mean that everything will cost a mint, I think the "denial" will fade away.I remember many years ago when Argentina had a huge meltdown and people were carrying a fist full of cash to pay for a loaf of bread. It seemed horrible to me and yet we may be facing the same thing.
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kurt_cagle Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
19. There's another factor at work as well (long)
For the most part, while the economy isn't great - the middle class is beginning to struggle, beginning to find themselves moving paycheck to paycheck when they weren't before, people are beginning to lose jobs and so forth - for many people this recession is still somewhat hypothetical. Foreclosures are high and increasing, but for the vast majority of the middle class, foreclosures are someone else's problem ... so far. The talking heads and "reality shows" (what a name!) don't help much, and of course there's been a major effort on the part of the Republicans to make sure that people don't realize just how bad things are getting.

Most people are not terribly good at analysis. Gas prices are a prime example of that - many people go to the gas station and spend $60 to fill up a fairly small car (or a $100+ to fill up an SUV) and get angry with the clerk because the cost of gas is so high, or get angry with the filling station because they're obviously raking in obscene profits. Yet most gas station owners are just barely in business - they lose money on the gas and only make it up with service or food purchases - and the high cost of gas hurts them as much as it does the car owners. So its the oil refiners' fault - yet for the most part they are struggling with trying to keep antiquated distillation systems going in the face of too little money and increasingly severe weather. The owners of those gas refinery plants are struggling with high prices as well - for labor, for parts, and for oil, and are also nervous (perhaps justifiably) that oil production will also begin to drop precipitously, meaning that just as they gear up for new production their pipelines are essentially idled and they will end up eating into profits.

Eating into profits is bad, of course, because those profits first have to paying off dividends, and not paying off those dividends could result in stock prices dropping dramatically, and the largest shareholders would then scream and have the head of their hand-picked CEOs). Granted, the CEOs for the most part are getting WELL compensated for putting short-term profits over investment infrastructure, but even there, ultimately, it is the largest shareholders that are driving this. Most of those largest shareholders in turn are corporations themselves, banks, investment funds, municipalities, even foreign governments (and as often as not, the US government, not that they'd be obvious as such). These, in turn are made up of individual investors, quite possibly including the poor schlub that owns stock in the oil company and yet is complaining at the $5 a gallon gas he's putting into his SUV.

The banks are failing, it must be the corrupt bankers faults - well, yeah, partially. It must be the regulators faults (yeah, partially). It must be the mortgage brokers faults (partially true as well), it must be the assessors parts (again, partially true). Of course, someone had to buy the house in the first place, had to run up the credit card, had to get the second mortgage to pay for the vacation to Disneyland and the SUV to drive there. Someone had to vote in the government officials who appointed the regulators, had to pull the lever in the first place.

One of the reasons that I support Obama has been that he has recognized the crux of this paradox. People have to take responsibility for their actions. All of the people. When things are going well, its easy for standards to fall, for vigilance to become lax, for people to justify taking a little extra because, well, they deserve it, and if they don't look out for number one then who will. Sure we can (and should) blame Bush for this mess, and I think given previous history its possible that McCain will not be radically different than Bush (though I don't think he would be AS bad). But we should also be looking at ourselves.

Before the tsunami hit in Asia, the water receded out nearly a mile in some places. A few people saw this and said "Oh, s**t, head for the hills!". Many more thought that this receding tide was rather novel, and walked out into areas of coral that had never been above water before. It was only when the wave of water that appeared on the horizon got close enough for people to realize just what was coming for them that started to flee, and by then of course it was far too late.

The collapse of the banks the last couple of months is basically the tsunami appearing on the horizon. People have been amused or awed by the spectacle, but so far, the actual wave hasn't hit yet, and most people really don't understand the forces that are coming our way. My guesstimate is that when it does hit most people, we'll see the loss of 2000+ banks, perhaps 20,000 businesses forced out of business, several small and medium sized cities forced into discorporation, foreclosure rates closer to 5-7% rather than 0.5%, a collapse of the DOW to below 5,000 and trillions of dollars of personal wealth lost. It will see the end of the American automobile industry and the airline industry will collapse to perhaps two large carriers and maybe four smaller ones.

It will see the rise of squatter communities emerging in the shadows of all of those former bedroom communities that were too far away from urban centers to survive without inexpensive gas (and despite the recent fall in oil prices, gas is not going back to being cheap any time soon), and will see a massive rise in crime, poverty, starvation, depression, suicide and out of control crazies with guns. This won't happen at once, and it won't happen everywhere, but there are signs that its already beginning to happen now. What's even scarier is that when it does happen, it will make it easier for demagogues to take control, will see a significant rise in vigilantism and riots, coming from all sides of the political spectrum.

McCain doesn't see this, of course - he's seventy two years old, meaning that while he was born in the middle of the Depression, by the time that he really became aware of what was happening in the world, the world was well on the way to recovery. His world-view is shaped by decades of living a life of privilege, and while he was certainly tortured and mistreated during the Vietnam war, his life both before and after were very much at a financial plateau that few of us can even conceive of, and I honestly think he has no concept of how to even begin addressing the problems that he'd get ... assuming that he lived beyond his first year as president (which, both because of his cancer history and with Palin hovering nearby, I harbor a lot of doubts). Palin, in all likelihood, is a messianic Christian who likely privately believes that the end-times are near, and that the deprivation and hardships which are about to visit a large number of people are ultimately expressions of their sinful, apostate lives. Neither of them is prepared for dealing with the tsunami.

Is Obama? Not yet, but I have some faith that he will be. He will be forced into making a number of very hard decisions, some of which are likely not to be popular here at DU. I'd say there's even a 15% likelihood that he will be faced with a strong separatist movement or even a civil war if he manages to get past his first term, and it may turn out that his decision will end up being different from Abraham Lincoln's 140 years before him. There's a huge amount of rage in this country right now (especially between rural and urban America) and that rage is not going to dissipate in the face of a recession that will likely hit rural America far worse than it will hit the urban centers.

Sorry for being so down here, but I moved my family out of the US to Canada nearly four years ago precisely because I saw this coming, and while I have no doubt that there will be significant dislocations here as well, I think overall that Canada is culturally more capable of surviving what's coming. I still vote in the US, still pay taxes there, and yes, I have donated to Obama's campaign a couple of times now, but I also have a family that I'm worried about and wanted to make sure they were out of harms way - and I still have parents and siblings that are in the US that will keep me coming back to help however I can.

Obama has to win this. His winning is not going to solve all the problems magically - they're already baked in, so to speak - but I think of all of the candidates he's probably the only one who can manage to martial the talents of people who can both ameliorate the problems and move us into a new form of economy that will be possible to give our children a foundation for the future.

-- Kurt Cagle
-- Online Editor, O'Reilly Media
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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-18-08 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. A very astute analysis
Thanks for posting that.

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