ACLU offering free Bumper stickers "I am a Constitution Voter"

[AllentownJake]

https://secure.aclu.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=bumper_sticker&s_s=email1

No better to sum up the way I vote.

[virginia mountainman]

1. Well, they ALMOST get it right..

They still do not protect ALL, our rights..

"In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue."

Hmm, Shall NOT, be infringed....


http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/gen/35904res20020304.html

[AllentownJake]

2. I may be mistaken

but there might be a lobbying group that watches out for people with guns. Don't know for sure.

[HillbillyBob]

23. Yes the NRA

nt

[lonestarnot]

7. Lifetime member of the NRA much? Do you hunt moose? How bout polar bears?

[Tesha]

10. You know, there's a whole 'nuther organization entirely dedicated to that right.

But the NRA/ILA, by their choice of political candidates each election
season, doesn't seem *EVEN A TENTH* as worried about the other
rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights or the rest of the Constitution.

Tesha

[aikoaiko]

3. Unlike the ACLU, I support all the civil rights, including the 2nd Amendment.

[lonestarnot]

5. What are you talking about?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. What was hard to understand?

[arthritisR_US]

32. he's talking about the right to bear arms, I think. n/t

[aikoaiko]

4. Unlike the ACLU, I support all the civil rights, including the 2nd Amendment.

I am a consitution voter. I don't pick and choose like the ACLU.

[lonestarnot]

8. When you have to make a choicewith funds available for the greater good, the Constitution is broken.

And who did that? 8 years, want more of the same?

[aikoaiko]

36. I don't not want more of the same, but I'm not selling out the 2nd either.

The ACLU getting correct on the 2nd would only help Democrats, liberals, and progressive agendas.

[uppityperson]

9. How does the ACLU pick and chose?

[Tesha]

11. He doesn't think the ACLU defends his gun rights enough.

Username: aikoaiko

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Comment Hey y'all

[aikoaiko]

14. Tesha is correct, the ACLU doesn't defend the Second Amendment well.

[lonestarnot]

12. If bushitler hadn't fucked the Constitution, they wouldn't have to now would they?

[aikoaiko]

13. They still don't have to pick and choose

And sadly, the ACLU was wrong on the 2nd Amendment even before Bushco came to power.

[lonestarnot]

15. You know damn good and well, nothing is going to stop merikans from having their fire arms, nothing.

[aikoaiko]

34. Sadly, we just reaffirmed our parties benighted dedication to a ban on many popular guns.

There are already a lot of guns I am not permitted to own because of bans on their importation or new manufacture. The ability to own certain guns has been dwindling for years. Americans and legal residents have had some of their guns taken away.

Some of them I'd like to own in the future. If we are successful in following out party's platform to reauthorize the ban, I would expect to lose the House and Senate soon thereafter.

[madmom]

43. My So is a member of a gun board, he just read a thread about people in NOLA having to provide a

receipt to prove they own a fire arm. If you are stopped for a traffic check/violation or whatever if they ask if you have a firearm in the vehicle and you say yes the want a for proof of purchase they want a receipt proving gun ownership.First they are saying it is NOT legal and is it just certain cop?, second a receipt does not tell who owns the purchased object.Is this more renegade police like in Minn.? They get their "bravado" from the repug administration!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

16. By your logic, you should support the NRA even less.

What's worse, worrying about 1 right to the detriment of the N-1 others, or worrying about N-1 rights to the detriment of one?

[AllentownJake]

17. Well the other 26 amendments have the ACLU

the 2nd has the NRA. I think they are funded well enough to cover your concerns. You don't like the ACLU don't get the sticker.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. Thanks for encouraging people to join the NRA.

[AllentownJake]

22. If your bitching that the ACLU is against gun owners

Your probably in the NRA already :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

25. So the ACLU is supporting the 2nd Amendment?

I'm not in the NRA, although I do appreciate their legislative work.

[Tesha]

42. The ACLU supports the entire constitution; they just think that...

the 2nd Amendment means something different than what the
NRA thinks it means.

Tesha

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. You mean something different the the Supreme Court has decided.

Big difference.

David

[AllentownJake]

The supreme court once decided seperate but equal was great

Supreme Court makes mistakes from time to time. :shrug:

[AllentownJake]

49. The supreme court once decided seperate but equal was great

Supreme Court makes mistakes from time to time. :shrug:

[Tesha]

50. Supreme Court decisions vary over time.

Consider Dred Scott.

Or maybe, in the near future, Roe v Wade.

There's no guarantee that a future Supreme Court won't
decide gun rights differently as well.

Tesha

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. My point was that you said the NRA not the Supreme Court.

[Tesha]

60. Which was, in fact, what I meant.

Right now, the Supreme Court appears to agree with the NRA.
This may not always be so.

Tesha

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

63. You are right.

In 20 or 30 years conditions might become favorable to reverse the Heller decision. I just wish the anti-gun folks would be honest and try and repeal the 2nd Amendment if they disagree with it so much, that constitutionally would be the right thing to do.

David

[Tesha]

70. There's no need to repeal; there's merely need to understand it in its *FULL* meaning.

As it is, gun people accept a very limited definition of it. Your choice
of "arms" is very, very limited even in the absence of the AWB, and the
NRA seems to tolerate *THAT* just fine.

Tesha

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

73. The NRA hasn't argued for unrestricted access to guns.

No rational person has.

David

[Tesha]

74. That's great; then we just disagree about which guns should be restricted. (NT)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. Which ones do you think should be banned?

[mmonk]

55. The Supreme Court doesn't always interpret the Constitution

without bias. In fact, if McCain wins, everyone will see as the court goes further right. To ignore the regulated militia part and say anyone can carry a gun anywhere and that right will not be infringed and can not be regulated on a state level is to ignore the reason of the second amendment and history.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. You clearly haven't read the ruling.

"anyone can carry a gun anywhere" Where do you all get this crap? Do you actually think about it before you post it?

David

[mmonk]

57. Did I say that was a ruling?

Many gun supporters put it as an individual right not to be infringed upon or regulated. They seem to think it means something they can't be restricted from under any circumstance (by the way, I'm a gun owner). That's not exactly the wording. The framers were worried about a strong federal army infringing on the states. Hence, the right of the states to have a well armed militia whereby the guns could not be taken away by the federal government. This was to protect against any tyranny from Washington. They were consumed with checks and balances on concentrated power.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. Who?

The NRA doesn't support unrestricted gun ownership. I've never seen anyone on the forum calling for it. Who are these many gun supporters? Obama thinks it's an individual right and he taught constitutional law. I guess I'll trust him and at least 8 members of the Supreme Court on that subject.

David

[mmonk]

59. Then nothing I say has any validity to it.

Here it is:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Read it and think of it in context with history. Then think of it in context to gun regulation in DC and or other recent cases similar in nature. Am I crazy in my opinion or just outnumbered?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

62. What other recent cases?

You are outnumbered by 8 out of 9 Supreme Court Justices. That doesn't make you crazy.

David

[mmonk]

69. I'm not passionate either way on the issue.

However, it's the only amendment with a qualifier (which was intended to be noticed or wouldn't exist). I see nothing that would negate any gun control measure in any state or municipality from a constitutional standpoint given the historical context and the founders fear of an all powerful standing federal army. But we're so far removed from that era, it doesn't matter and that ship has sailed. I just think it amusing people give it an absolute right and claim it unambiguous yet don't don't seem alarmed at all the violations of the fourth amendment or incarceration without trial, torture (cruel and inhumane punishment) or abuse in regards to 1st amendment protections. It's definitely a study in human nature.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. Who doesn't seem alarmed by those things?

[aikoaiko]

35. I respect/admire the ACLU for its dedication to Civil Rights, and I need them to carry out that work

That is why I applaud them for what they do correctly and criticize them for their failings on the 2nd.

[lonestarnot]

6. Mine are on their way!

[AllentownJake]

18. I never thought I'd see ACLU bashing on here

:shrug:

[lonestarnot]

19. LOL, ready for anything for next 2 months.

[lonestarnot]

21. Kennedy bashing next!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Wow, now it's bashing to disagree with an organization on one subject.

A disagreement over a factual issue that lots of democrats care about.

David

[lonestarnot]

29. Yeah and one issuers have created the fucking mess we are in about now.

Have fun.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. Easy enough to fix.

The democrats and the ACLU should just adopt Obama's position on the 2nd Amendment and we'd probably be just fine.

David

[lonestarnot]

31. So then we agree. Obama will fix it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. He disagrees with the ACLU and the dems platform.

Besides it's not broke. Heller fixed it.

David

[lonestarnot]

37. Heller?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

64. Heller vs. The District of Columbia

[lonestarnot]

38. Obama does not disagree with Kennedys for change, so what are you getting at?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. Obama thinks the 2nd Amendment is an individual right.

The ACLU disagrees.

David

[lonestarnot]

45. And that is not what the Bill of Rights is all about?

Individual rights? Still don't know what you are getting at. :shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

46. What is the Bill of Rights about?

[LiveLiberally]

24. ACLU's stance on the Second Amendment (as of 7/08)

I happen to agree with their interpretation. (See below) But the point is that the Constitution is not scripture, but a living political text, subject to modification and interpretation. I agree with the bumper sticker in that I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT and SUPPORT the Constitution, even if others -- be they the NRA, the ACLU or the Supreme Court -- may interpret some clauses differently than I do.

______

The Second Amendment provides: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

ACLU POSITION
Given the reference to "a well regulated Militia" and "the security of a free State," the ACLU has long taken the position that the Second Amendment protects a collective right rather than an individual right. For seven decades, the Supreme Court's 1939 decision in United States v. Miller was widely understood to have endorsed that view.

The Supreme Court has now ruled otherwise. In striking down Washington D.C.'s handgun ban by a 5-4 vote, the Supreme Court's 2008 decision in D.C. v. Heller held for the first time that the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to keep and bear arms, whether or not associated with a state militia.

The ACLU disagrees with the Supreme Court's conclusion about the nature of the right protected by the Second Amendment. We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.

http://www.aclu.org/crimjustice/gen/35904res20020304.html

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. Ok now I'll do some bashing.

We do not, however, take a position on gun control itself. In our view, neither the possession of guns nor the regulation of guns raises a civil liberties issue.


Whoever wrote the above sentence is an absolute moron.


David

[EstimatedProphet]

61. It's a shame

IMO, I'd like to see the ACLU take a more positive stand on this one issue. I think they ACLU is is a great organization, and I hate the NRA because it has been taken over by fanatics, but I am put in the distateful position of having to disagree with the ACLU position and agree with the NRA position.

However, I still support the ACLU. Period.

[Paladin]

40. You Gun Nuts' Opinions Are About As Valuable As Sarah Palin's (n/t)

[aikoaiko]

41. You anti-gun nuts do your damage just as well as any Republican, albeit more selectively.

edited as bit for clarity

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. You gun grabbers irrational fear of inanimate objects is indicative of mental illness.

[varelse]

48. It's a shame this thread got hijacked

:kick:

The ACLU isn't perfect, but they've done much to defend our civil rights over the years.

[Tesha]

51. "Gun people" can be rather single-minded about their one right. (NT)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Quit bashing the ACLU.

[ogneopasno]

53. Is there a union bug on it?

nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

67. Please enlighten me. That flew right over my head. -nt

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

65. DAMNIT!!! I missed the 24-hr rule to recommend!!!

:grr:

I AM A CONSTITUTION VOTER!!!!

[ElkHunter]

66. I support an individual's right to own a firearm...

...but the NRA is nothing more than an appendage of the most reactionary elements of the Republican party. Indeed, the NRA board of directors and its' leadership reads like a Who's Who of American conservatism. Not only that, but NRA support of so-called pro-Second Amendment candidates comes at the expense of conservation and our public lands. Every time a hunter sends a contribution to the NRA they are in effect helping the very political elements who would take from us the very land where Americans hunt and fish. Perhaps that's why a group of hunters broke away to from the American Hunters & Shooters Association:

http://www.realhuntersrealconservation.com/index.php

[friendly_iconoclast]

68. That's cool...Now where do the 80% of gun owners who *don't* hunt go?

Are they gonna get a rebate for the taxes they pay on ammo that goes to conservation?

You *are* aware that the NRA endorses pro-Second Amendment Democrats, no?

I have many issues with the NRA and refuse to join them.

The AH&SA is an astroturf project of the Joyce Foundation designed to attract Fudds

[ElkHunter]

71. The NRA's support for pro-gun Democrats...

...is very few and far in between the solid support they give to Republicans. In fact it's primarily for show in order to promote the facade that they are non-partisan. For instance, Howard Dean had a very good pro-gun record as governor of Vermont - in fact much better than George Bush's as governor of Texas. Where was the NRA's support for Dean in 2004? It didn't exist. The right wing leadership of the NRA found a way not to endorse Dean and to lump him in with those that advocate gun control. Giving money to the NRA is the same as giving money to the Republican party.

By the way, the organization is the American Hunters & SHOOTERS Association. That means that it's not an organization exclusively for hunters.