I don't care what your religion is or isn't, just keep it the hell out of our secular government!

[sinkingfeeling]

[Venceremos]

1. Amen

[frogmarch]

2. Absofrickinlutely! nt

[Az]

3. RAmen!!!

[MiniMe]

4. Amen here too

Um, are we allowed to say that in response to your post? Should I say Shalom instead? Is that even the right word?

[ixion]

5. big secular kick

for that...

[gratuitous]

6. Yeah, why should murder be illegal anyway?

Oooops.

[sinkingfeeling]

8. Murder is a religious belief? Morals, right and wrong, all can exist just fine without religion.

[gratuitous]

12. Why is murder "wrong"? Who decided that?

Or theft, or anything else? Just because some book of fairy tales from a zillion years ago said it, why do we have to slavishly follow the dead hand of the previous generations?

And how are you going to distinguish between someone who thinks murder (or any other action designated a "crime") should be against the law because of religious belief or because of a personal "moral" standard that has nothing to do with religion?

I obviously crave your enlightenment, because it doesn't appear to me, at first blush, that you've thought this through very well.

[Adsos Letter]

17. Who WAS the first to decide that murder was wrong?

It is wrong, of course...but I don't need religion to understand that.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Murder is 'wrong' because based on our forefathers (DOI) we have certain

inalienable rights; life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Yes, it was stolen from John Locke. Murder is wrong because it unfairly deprives another of his/her right to life. When we, as a people, agree to government, we consent to the passage of laws and the definition of criminal activity. Most of our laws stem from the Magna Carta and ancient Fundamental laws of England, and of course, Locke.

These are the bases of secular government. No reference to religious texts.

[Adsos Letter]

21. Indeed.

..."self-evident" rights.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Romulox]

15. Don't disagree. But it is difficult to identify the basis of modern, secular "morality"...

I am not arguing that religion is (or should be!) the only basis of morality. But in the modern, secularized world, it seems to me that corporate morals rule the day.

E.g.: stab a man to death = evil and immoral. deny a man life saving medicine = good business sense.

[Adsos Letter]

19. Interesting.

...so, what version of religion shall we base our morality on?

[Romulox]

24. I'm not religious at all. I am merely trying to identify the basis of modern "morality"

I therefore won't recommend a religion on which to base our collective morality. But the question remains: what is the philosophical basis of our modern, secular morality?

My argument is that modern morality = corporatism, essentially. For another example, it is wrong to steal, but usury (see, e.g. "pay day loans") is considered a-ok. This is not a view based in religion. Quite the contrary.

[RainDog]

23. War for god = good. kill women as witches = good according to christianity

that's some absolutely fucking stupid reasoning... kill a female if she doesn't drown b/c she's a witch.

This is the reason, I suppose, that our democracy is failing. People cannot understand the idea that humans can work out their own governance. That was the basis for this nation.

Religion in america, it seems, has become the enemy of democracy.

[SoCalDem]

7. Um... we "lost" our secular government back when Carter let it be known that he was born again

Reagan let the religious freaks have their way with government..

GHWB kept it going, and by the time Clinton ran, it was a given that a president had to be 'religious"..even if they really weren;t.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

9. Ummmmmmm, This Is In Relation To What Now?

Any backstory?

[snappyturtle]

10. 5th K&R ! Succinctly put! n/t

[SIMPLYB1980]

11. Amen to that!

[no limit]

13. and do me a favor and stop preaching it to me, I'm sick of it.

[mike_c]

14. well said-- and it's a secular SOCIETY, not just a secular government....

Religion has no place in society at all. The religious can live their lives according to their scriptures, but they have no right to impose their beliefs on the rest of us, even in nongovernmental ways. Keep your crosses, commandments, billboards, blue laws, pamphlets, homilies, and whatever out of public life! I am SO tired of having to "respect" superstitious nonsense!

[unblock]

16. wait, i thought this was a christian nation?

founded by deists and atheists and various religious groups who FLED CHRISTIAN NATIONS to try something DIFFERENT.

:grr:

[SammyWinstonJack]

18. Right On!

:applause: