Why can't we airlift people out of New Orleans?

[Hugabear]

Have we learned nothing from Katrina? I turn on the news this morning and see an endless line of cars heading out of New Orleans at a snail's pace. Anyone who's ever been part of a mass evacuation like this knows just how slow it can be. Why not use our military resources to transport these people out of harm's way? If need be, why not issue an executive order to temporarily seize control of enough private airliners to evacuate these people?

THERE IS NO FUCKING EXCUSE THIS TIME (not that there was last time)

[valerief]

1. They're not important enough, I guess. nt

[gristy]

2. airlift?

You gotta get the folks to the airport first of all. Then you gotta get the folks to where they're staying from whatever airport the plane goes to. Sounds more problematic and slower than buses to me.

[PufPuf23]

86. Helicopter; Chinook nt

[my2sense]

3. Excellent point!

[pinto]

4. AMTRAK's been running trains north. Last one probably just pulling out (tracks get closed

once the flood gates are closed.)

[hedgehog]

27. Just imagine what we could do if we had a decent national

passenger rail service so we'd have some more passenger cars to use!

[shadowknows69]

5. We seemed to manage it in Saigon

[TahitiNut]

9. The millions of boat people might disagree.

:eyes:

[shadowknows69]

16. Treu, I was refrerring to "our official" people I guess

[Speck Tater]

6. Too expensive. Not enough airplanes available to do the job.

Instead of spread out over the highways, ALL that traffic would be concentrated at the airport. Not enough parking for all those cars. Not enough departure capacity to handle enough flights even IF there were enough planes, which there aren't.

[Virginia Dare]

7. Why couldn't they bus them to the nearest air base?

seems like it would be quicker.

[Speck Tater]

12. Fueling and loading the planes, IF there where enough of them,

then getting them off the ground would be slower than to just keep the buses rolling once they were on the road.

And the air traffic congestion would be ridiculous trying to get that many empty planes in and loaded and back out again. And those planes would have to LAND somewhere. And then transportation would have to be supplied at the destination airport. MORE buses. More delays.

Airlifting an entire city is just ridiculous. It's a simplistic answer that sounds good in the land of make-believe, but wouldn't work at all in the real world.

[ddeclue]

8. There is SOME airlift going on but not enough to airlift out everybody.

The airlines already have an obligation under national emergency to do so and the gov't subsidizes a portion of the cost of airliners owned by American carriers just for this purpose. If I were an airline CEO of any American carrier, I would do this at least to the point of sending a dozen extra free flights in to New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

Doug D.

[carguy67]

10. Expensive maybe?

Feds should blow millions to move people who want to live below sea level? It is a known risk of living there one that if you take you should be prepared to deal with.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh or abrasive but I get tired to people always looking for the Gov to take care of them. It is your responsibility to take care of your family.

[200overcast]

13. Come on, didn't you get the memo? The government must give you everything for free

from birth to death. Personal responsibility for anything is so passe' - every conceivable bad thing is someone else's fault and we have to be protected from them all.

:eyes:

[Wednesdays]

15. Yeah, God forbid anyone ask you for your money

to help out anyone in need.

Oh, and let's hope the shoe is never on the other foot for you, Mr. GOP. Scrooge at his worst had a bigger heart than you.

[200overcast]

18. Huh? What does that have to do with the question?

Actually people ask me for money all the time. Sometimes I give them some and sometimes I don't. Isn't that how most people operate?
:shrug:

[carguy67]

28. I'll answer too

So I should give my money to everyone in need? I should bust my ass off after starting my own business and give it all away?

People need to learn a sense of responsibility. Yes there are people in low income situations that are out of their control. There are others who milk the system because money is there and it is easier than working.

So no, I do not want the government giving my money away. If I see someone in real need that I think giving money to will help them, will no be spent on drugs or booze I do. Using it to fly people out of an area they choose to live in below sea level is not a good use of my money. Feeding Leon the war Vet who is disabled, that is money better spent.

I find it funny how many people here are eager to give other peoples money away. If you want to help send a check, drive then and help people move out, or show up after the Cain and clean up the mess.

[bobbolink]

32. "My name is John McCain, and I approved this message."

:crazy:

[carguy67]

35. Cute

So because that I believe that my main concern in live is taking care of myself and my family first I am a jackass? I work hard for my money and do not like to see it wasted.

If you do not agree with my then lets debate, i'm fine with that. Using smileys and names... please grow up.

[Wednesdays]

40. Please...please don't work too hard

You must stay healthy so you can "earn" more of YOUR money.

[carguy67]

44. So

Since you are so generious lets hear what you do to support others? Or do you just let the government decide where to spend it for you?

[npk]

66. Airlifting wouldn't work on this large of a scale

This aint Hollywood.

on edit this reply was meant for OP.

[bobbolink]

49. You're welcome.

[carguy67]

52. As I suspected

[bobbolink]

54. awww........

Poh ting... couldn't get me upset.

Dang....

[carguy67]

57. Who

Attacked who? You jumped on me and will not even discuss the disagreement. Just calling you on your BS.

Poor thing? Hardly

[Catherine Vincent]

58. "I work hard for my money "

You probably don't even work. Posting from mommy's basement?

[Chovexani]

85. More likely posting from under a bridge

:P

[carguy67]

88. Girl

Obviously your mother failed at manners and social skills. When will you realize that attacking someone you do not agree with accomplishes nothing? Does making fun of someone make you feel like the bad ass you wish you could be? If you have a problem with me come out with it. I could go into details about myself but what difference does it make with people like you?

[TahitiNut]

33. Well, you just be sure to stay off MY roads!

:eyes:

[carguy67]

36. When

Did I ever say anything about that? Same goes for you as the other poster, if you disagree with me fine lets talk about it or keep the goofly one liners & smileys from wasting forum bandwith.

[Wednesdays]

41. Notice how a disaster brings out the worst people out of the woodwork

Saw that after Katrina, too. The 'pukes are frustrated at what's happening to them, and they can't contain themselves now.

[carguy67]

45. Nice to see

How you attack someone and do not answer any questions. Excuse me Wednesday your cowardice is showing.

[bobbolink]

50. .

:applause:

Roads... what a damned socialist plot!!!!

[Wednesdays]

39. Yeah, please don't "bust your ass" for anyone

And hold on to every penny of YOUR money. Don't want to be short on your next DVD player purchase at Wally World, or your next latte, or whatever. God knows, you really need those things.

[carguy67]

42. See

Here we go again with the stupid assuming shit...

Let me tell you a bit about myself:

My mother is a leukemia survivor.
Her hospital bills from Shands were 1.45 million
Insurance paid roughly 400,000
The family covered the rest, we did not beg borrow or steal. Those who had money saved up chipped in.

One of my sisters died 20 months ago of Colon cancer.
She was a nurse and the hospital's insurance company dropped her coverage after 2 months.
Her bills were over half a million dollars, all of which was covered by family members. People who took substantial amounts from their retirement funds, business startup funds to help.

I do not make car payments, I buy what I can pay for. I choose not to live beyond my means.

I do not shop at Wal mart I support local business.

I do not drink soda or coffee.

I am an active donor to local charities, those which I know how the money is being spent.

[bobbolink]

56. I hope you wouldn't begrudge people WHO HAVE NO FAMILY.

oh wait... that's EXACTLY who you begrudge.

Toss 'em all in the drink....

[carguy67]

76. guess

You missed the part about me helping locals. There are Billions of people living around the world in poverty. I help those in my local and that is wrong? Ok this christmas I'll send 2,500 worth of toys to a hospital where you live and you do the same to mine. Would that make you happy?

[Virginia Dare]

62. What would Jesus do?...n/t

[carguy67]

89. Jesus

I am not Jesus nor do I compare myself to him. I contribute time & money to LOCAL charities, I can not help everyone person around the world and know it. It much more efficent for me to help those in my community. Again I do not have a problem with helping people.

[krispos42]

65. Yeah, you should

Because one day YOU could be that person in need. Or your parents or children or any number of relatives.

So you bust your ass to start your own business. Great. You've managed to be destroyed by competative franchises, your competition hasn't pulled any dirty tricks to drive you out of business, and you're haven't been squeezed out by a big-box store or outsourced to China. At least, not yet, but rest assured, a lot of very well-paid corporate people are trying to figure out how exactly to do that.

Then, OOPS, seems that the city privatized the water department to save money and the private foreign corporation that owns it decides to cut back on maintenence so they can reward their executives with a nice bonus for getting the contract. And a water main breaks and your building gets flooded. Gee, now it's a health hazard because it's full of toxic mold in the walls and has to be condemned.

Shit, well, thank god you have insurance, right? Only they drop you like hot potato. "You policy doesn't cover flooding," they say, or "Sue the foreign private corporation that owns the pipes".

"But it's in my contract!" you scream. "Sue us," they reply calmly.

So you sue both, which takes years of litigation and costs tens of thousands of dollars, until, maybe, you can a jury to side with you. Maybe the jury isn't full of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" types that tell you to quit whining. Maybe they actually think "hey, we all benefit by getting you back on your feet" and procede to punish the companies for their failings.


But win or lose, you lose. You've spend 5 years paying off business loans and getting assets seized for a defunct business with no income. You've sold your house (in a soft market, taking a loss) and rented a shitty apartment in the poor side of town and used the money to keep creditors off your back and food in your family's bellies. You can't declare bankruptcy because some moralist Republicans got themselves (for a suitible campaign contribution from a transnational bank) into a froth about people getting credit they can't afford then running out on the debt and got the bankruptcy laws changed.

Oh, and thanks to more moralist Republicans working themselves into another froth (again, for a suitable campaign contribution from transnational corporations) about "tort reform", so your damages are severely limited. By the time you pay off your lawyer and the bills, late fees, loans, and interest from your business loans, you still don't have anything near enough to restart the business. Oh, and because you were five years late on your bills, your credit is slashed and bank lenders just laugh at you when you go see them for a loan.




And that's assuming you win in court.




Of course, if the city or county had some kind of community reserve fund from a modest tax levy, you could have applied for, and gotten, the money to get yourself back on your feet immediately in a new building before having to wait for the courts. A low-interest, long-term loan or maybe even a grant, because the community recognizes that the best welfare program is a good-paying job and thriving local businesses and that when disaster strikes, it's best to get things back the way they were immediately so the economy does not falter.

But such a fund would not exist if the community was run by Republicans. That's evil, evil, socialism. Collective action. Communism. That's not the spirit of America, dammit! And all those extra tax dollars wasting away in the city coffers instead of back in people's wallets! Oh, the humanity!!!





Christ, there are about 2 states in the country that aren't in an earthquake, tornado, hurricane, flood, wildfire, drought, or blizzard zone. Maybe less. So there's a 96% chance you are being hypocritical.

[Catherine Vincent]

68. Great post.

I doubt the idiot reads it. :thumbsup:

[carguy67]

80. again

With the childish name calling. If you don't like what I say follow the lead of the previous poster and bring in some actual substance.

[carguy67]

78. Some good points

I do not have loans as I waited until I could afford to. I don't buy things that I need to borrow money to get. I make sure to have a savings account and add to it before thinking about spending money on myself. Know why? I know that my business could go under and I do not want to be asking for help the next day. It is my responsibility to take care of myself and my family not yours.

Some people will say must be nice to pay cash. I know some people can't be in that situation, I do. but much of the middle class that is in a crunch right now did it to themselves by getting loans over loans and running up credit cards to by things they WANTED instead of saving up for them. Gotta get it now mentality.

I guess you did not see my post about my mother or sister? Been there with out the government or outside help. I am not saying it is bad people I am saying that to many people abuse it. They know that if they don't buy food before a storm or prepare for a possible storm that the government will be there giving it to them. Those are the things I have a problem with.

If you live somewhere where there is flooding a by a home on the river you are asking for trouble. If you know about the floods and do what you can to prepare for them, hats off to you. You can't prevent bad things from happening but you can spend some money to prepare instead of waiting for someone to bail you out.

[SammyWinstonJack]

17. Went a little overboard with your broad brush, did you not?

:eyes:

[200overcast]

20. No, I don't believe so.

:-)

[SammyWinstonJack]

87. You did.

[AllieB]

21. Ahhh. The 'personal responsibility' talking point.

Your comment shows the typical sociopathic lack of empathy that is symptomatic of right-wing indoctrination.

Enjoy your stay. :eyes:

[TahitiNut]

26. Yup.

Shows the hypocrisy of that "my brother's keeper" stuff, huh? Gotta love those fundy attitudes.

[AllieB]

29. Yes, it's so Christian, isn't it?

:eyes:

Obama hit the nail on the head in his acceptance speech where he mentions 'the ownership society' i.e. 'you're on your own'.

[bobbolink]

47. The story Jim Wallis tells about the man drowing in the Potomac

100 feet from shore.

The Republicans throw him a 50 ft rope, and say, "The rest is up to you."

It would be a lot funnier if it wasn't so sad.

:(

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bobbolink]

51. .

:applause:

[Virginia Dare]

63. No, I didn't get the memo..

I thought one of the reasons we had a federal government was to help people when a major disaster struck. Silly me.

Oh, and I'll add a fuck you.

[carguy67]

71. Did

Did I say it shouldn't help? I think not. I said that people should be responsible enough to take care of themselves. That means knowing about the disasters in your area and bing prepared for them. That means saving money for things that matter instead of "treating" yourself because you think you deserve to.

To many people expect that the government should do everything for them. You know what those types of governments are call? Communist.

Learn how to read everything. If you want to twist things to make me look bad, whatever. It is your right as an american after all.

[Virginia Dare]

74. I don't need to twist your words.

nobody has to "make" you look bad.

[carguy67]

75. Gotcha

As you wish Virginia.

[AllieB]

24. What if someone doesn't have the resources to move?

New Orleans has 3rd-world poverty rates. I'm sure you have no problem bailing out the banks who caused the foreclosure crisis, or large corporations who ship jobs overseas.

Again, see my comment to your friend 200overcast below. Visitors like you are obvious by your pathological lack of empathy and 'blame the poor' right-wing talking points.

[carguy67]

30. Poverty and banks

I'll work from the bottom up on this.

I am not for bailing out banks or failing businesses. I own my own and if I screw up no one will help me, I know that for a fact. Tax dollars are better spent.

As for the poor who can not drive or fly out. There are cheaper ways to move people than air lifting them out. If the use of transportation out was restricted only to the poor I'd be fine with it. If they want to fly in a few hundred C17's and make runs getting everyone out then hell no.

[bobbolink]

31. Welcome to Libertarian Underground.

:crazy:

[carguy67]

38. Lets

Talk when you grow up. Again I say if you have a problem with me confront it head on. None of this cowardly jabs, do you feel like you are proving a point or changing my views by doing it? Driving me off maybe? Is that the goal?

[bobbolink]

46. Bwahahahahaha!!!

It's clear that you're so into yourself that you wouldn't be able to even RECOGNIZE compassion, let alone "change" to it.

[carguy67]

48. So

The child remains a child. If you knew anything about me or actually would read into any of my posts you might open your mind a bit.

The problem I have is not with charity. It is with people who live in areas of natural disasters and do not prepare. I live in such an area so I know what it is like. Funny thing is here in Fl when they were handing out MRE's over 1/2 of the people in line were people who could afford food, who could have prepared but didn't because they knew the government would give it to them. That is my problem.

[LostinVA]

72. Yeah -- because poor people have the money to move

[DJ13]

11. The baggage fees those poor people would face would be awful!

:hide:

[librechik]

14. George Bush Doesn't Care About Black People--Still. n/t

[cobalt1999]

19. Ever evacuate for a hurricane before?

If you have a car, you load everything you can into it and go. It doesn't matter how slowly as long as you are going.

Give me or those people the choice of a couple of carry-on bags and an airlift or escaping with your car and a load of personal belongings, and see how many show up for the airlift. Little or none.

Evacuations should be ordered well in advance. Nagan waited 24 hrs too long in my opinion before ordering a mandatory evacuation and going on the news.

[seasat]

22. They had a report on CNN the other night where they are airlifting out.

They're airlifting some of the low income residents out to as far away as Arkansas. I was up late last night and they showed a segment where they had converted a post office terminal at the air port to a security check station and were air lifting out 1000's of residents.

[Igel]

61. Then they have to get them back.

Most evacuees stay as close as possible. Makes returning easier.

[Uben]

23. Half of them are on no fly list

Ha ha! Wouldn't doubt it!

People drive so they will have a way to return and they can take more stuff with them. FEMA has told those towing FEMA trailers to leave them behind. Why? They will have a place to stay and all their belongings with them.

[bbinacan]

25. People are being flown out. n/t

[dysfunctional press]

34. it doesn't seem like it would be a very efficient way of doing it...

especially since the weather can get dangerous to fly in well before the storm 'arrives'.

[Dreamer Tatum]

59. Plus the air traffic system doesn't exactly have a lot of slack in the first place

The skies are a pretty crowded space. You can drive a bus loaded with 125 people farther and faster than you can
on a 737, once everything is factored in. I don't want to ride on any plane that hasn't gone through all the necessary
pre-flight tests...would you?

Chartered air travel just takes too damn long for the number of people that can be carried at once.

[AZ Criminal JD]

43. What is the big problem?

Everyone is out who wanted out.

[SoCalDem]

53. and drop them where?

There have to be places at the other end for them to BE..

What's going to have to happen is this.. State officials are going to have to make some hard (and unpopular) decisions about where people can build permanent structures and live & work, and where they can no longer do that..

There is no guarantee that this will not be a recurring thing for years to come, and the state budgets of poor states (and the US treasury) cannot afford to "furlough" hundreds of thousands of people every year..possibly multiple times..

[Sanctified]

55. Not sure what the population of New Orleans currently is but I think

it would be completely impossibly to airlift that many people out, the planning and coordination that would be required would make what the Chinese did for the opening of the Olympics look amateur.

[slackmaster]

60. Airlift them to where?

:shrug:

[Virginia Dare]

64. Where are they bussing them to?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

67. I think it's a lot cheaper to bus people than to airlift them

n/t

[Virginia Dare]

69. Could be, but where are they going?...n/t

[npk]

82. Mlost of the people being bussed out are poor people

People that don't have any transportation out of the city. They are being bussed to emergency shelters provided by cities and counties in Northern Lousiana and Mississippi. That was last I heard.

[TheWraith]

70. Numbers, numbers, numbers.

New Orleans has a population of 275,000 people. Figuring that an average airliner can accomodate 250, that's 1,100 flights out of NOLA's airport, assuming you started 48 hours before you had to shut down operations due to the hurricane. Figuring that each of those flights has to be brought in, too, that's a plane taking off or landing every 80 seconds for two days straight. That's more than three times the flight volume that NOLA's airport currently handles. Not to mention the logistics of getting all those people to the airport, then getting them from the airport on the other end to wherever they need to be.

It's true that we should be mixing and matching transport methods, but an airlift isn't a total solution, particularly since conditions will become impossible to fly through a long while before it becomes impossible to drive.

Now, if we had some decent high-speed railways linking NOLA to inland areas, then we could do this a lot easier.

[BalancedGoat]

73. It is my understanding that they are airlifting people.

According to a press conference that a saw earlier today, they currently have extra capacity for airlifts. Others have in the thread have mentioned to logistical problems involved in airlifting an entire city with a population of a quarter million people (a little over a million in the entire metropolitan area) so I won't go into that.

[Stinky The Clown]

77. Check out this thread. Our resident naysayers and experts will setcha straight.

:eyes:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3887093

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

79. Because our transport planes are busy airlifting troops and bombs to "protect" our people.

Kinda like CEO's layoff people to "protect" jobs.

[Codeine]

81. Everybody is getting out just fine without airlifts.

That would add a layer of logistical horror on top of an already difficult situation.

There aren't tons of people unable to escape this time. The state handled it fairly well. Why the hysteria?

[Synicus Maximus]

83. It would be possible but a nightmare

There are 29 gates at NO International. Assuming 250 people per flight and 2 flights left each gate per hour you could get 14500 people out per hour. If the evacuation run 48 hours you could get 160000 people out. But then you would have to think of how to get people to the airport. The NO is not exactly easy to get to from downtown. Then you would have to get 7250 people through the airport and to the proper gate. (A real trick when people are scared). You would have to do that 96 times in 48 hours.
This of course does not that into consideration getting 2404 planes into and out of the airport in bad weather.
As an aside the airport is approximately 4.5 feet above sea level.

[Xenotime]

84. PUgs have all of our planes fighting an illegal war in Iraq.

That's why we can't That's more important than the safety and survival of the citizens of their own country.