As far as illegal immigration goes:

[SHRED]

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My thought is that those who hire illegal immigrants create the draw and therefore are the CAUSE of illegal immigration.

I keep this argument simple for my simple-minded "friends" who argue for fences while bashing the Mexican people.

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[Andy823]

1. Yes, I agree, but

whenever there is a bust on illegal workers, the employer hardly ever seems to get any kind of "real" punishment for hiring them in he first place, and that's the problem. We need some tough laws that go after the employer who hires the illegals in the first place. Fine them $10,000 per each illegal they hire, put them in jail for at least 6 months for a second offense, on top of the fines, and we can put a stop to what they are doing. Many of those how employ the illegals abuse their rights on top of breaking the law. They pay less money to the illegals, they avoid any kind of benefits, and many also don't hold out taxes on them. The illegals come here to work, and big corporations exploit them for lager profits. I want to see crack down on the "employers", they are the real problem.

[SHRED]

2. problem is...

...many employers are large contributors to political campaigns I suspect.


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[pampango]

4. It is my understanding that the usual excuse the employers give is that they checked

the workers' documents and they looked genuine.

Is the validating of any worker's authorization to work the responsibility of the government or should it be left in the hands of individual employers? The latter, in their own self-interest, can claim that they are not experts in document verification, but to make a certain product or provide a certain service.

On the other hand, if it is the government's responsibility, do I want my eligibility to take a new job to possibly get tied up in an employment authorization agency? Do I need to carry an official "I'm an American" ID?

Until someone comes up with a foolproof system for identification of potential employees and we leave authorization decisions in the hands of employers, employers are likely going to be able to get away from prosecution by claiming "How was I supposed to know? You look at those documents, Judge or jury, and tell me you could tell they are fake."

[SHRED]

5. Social Secuity has a system in place

http://www.ssa.gov/employer/ssnv.htm

[Igel]

7. With caveats.

And the caveats are crucial, making it unworkable.

First, the SSA just says there's a mismatch between the employer's and SSA's records. That can be because I'm employed as Roberta M. Igil, but the SSA says I'm R. Mehitabel Igil. Or my social security number with the SSA is 111-222-3333, but my employer has it down as 111-222-333 or 111-223-3333. I might actually have been employed as Roberta M. Farsnorggler, to use my maiden name, but gotten married and updated the SSA information but kept my maiden name for most other uses. Or the SSA still thinks that's me, even though I legally changed my name and just forgot about the SSA. Or perhaps Hakim Aleksandrov Ming has decided to use 111-222-3333 as his SSN when he got the job at the Hassidic corn-shucking factory in Iowa in July. And that's not an exhaustive list. Absence of a match doesn't mean absence of eligibility for employment.

You see the problem?

Then there's the legal hurdle. You find that the SSA says there's a problem, you, the employer, might just do nothing. It's advisory. It's FYI only. It has no legal force. Your clerk's asst. clerk might file it away or pitch it in the trash, unnoticed. And that's ok, the SSA would have to grumble.

But there's a move afoot to make sure that there's a database to verify employability. Why, Congress itself mandated it back in the mid-1980s. It's never actually funded it, or approved it, or done squat about it. But, dammit, it's mandated. Yawn. Many, both on left and right, think this is a dandy idea. Many don't, because any such database would be rife with errors; how do you assemble and verify all the information? But my impression was that more wanted the database when it was viewed as impossible than were against it.

Then * decided that it was a dandy idea, and said to use the SSA database on a trial basis. Well, it's rife with errors. So a bunch of people who don't want such a database--they're pro-illegal immigrant rights, I'd have to say--along with people who want a yet future, unfunded database that'll be equally rife with errors, filed suit to stop it. It was stopped; the final disposition is awaiting trial in the 9th Circuit Court. Some of the people in favor of stopping had been in favor of such a database, until one actually became possible. Their support was theoretical, contingent on its non-existence.

The argument they used is simple: It'll be a disaster: Those of dubious employability will merely be fired; those not English-literate, brave, or educated enough won't navigate the morass, and it will be an onerous burden; employers will find it easier to fire and hire new people than fix records. Now, this might be true. But the second point--people won't be able to fix their records--is silly; before they collect SS benefits, they'll have to fix their records, and the longer they go before fixing them, the nastier the problem. The first and 3rd points ignore the numerous class action suits that would be waiting.

[Kansas Wyatt]

6. "How was I suppose to know?"

'Okay Mr. Illegal Employer, please tell the court how you could not have known, when you asked where the grade school was they attended as a child, since they could not even speak english, and they could not tell you. You did at least do an internet search on the information the applicant gave you, didn't you?'

Sorry, but if these employers were that stupid, then how in the hell can they possibly operate a business in the first place?

Are minorities excused from filling out job applications, and if so, then how can they be considered, since their HONESTY on the application is a legitimate consideration for employment?

[Igel]

8. Talk to your I-9 compliance officer.

You'll learn what 'employment eligibility' is defined as, what documents are legally sufficient to show it, and that if they show those documents and you can't show with a fair degree of certainty that they're fake, they've proven, legally, that they're eligible.

You'll learn that fakes are often good. Damned good. Or maybe not, but you've never seen a driver's license from Alaska or a state non-motorist ID from Maine. And did a SS card issued in 1983 really look that different from one issued in 1971 or 2003?

You'll learn that if you decide to investigate one person's identity further than most others because s/he has a different surname, skin color, or native language, you're discriminating on the basis of race or national origin. If you deny them employment because you think they're here illegally, even though they've met their burden of legal proof, you're discriminating. Now, in most cases you'll get off scott-free. In most cases. But that Maine non-motorist ID might just be valid, and you decided that Mr. Lopez had to be an illegal alien because he spoke funny. You decide that since you do I-9 work maybe three hours or three days a year, it's not worth the hassle. "Fine." Copy, copy, staple, file, archive.

You'll learn that since you have deniability--you don't know that they're ineligible--you're almost certainly *not* going to be charged, even if they are here illegally. And if you are charged, the defense is easy: Here's the copies of the ID, prove that I knew they were fake.

It's a stupid law, with few teeth and poor enforcement mechanisms. Barely better than no law.

[pampango]

11. You can't discriminate based on national origin or the inability to speak English

(unless speaking English is a job requirement). Refugees and many legal immigrants don't speak English very well, if at all, when they first come here and they are authorized to work. They may well have attended a grade school in their native country. That doesn't mean they are here illegally.

[KharmaTrain]

3. Another Race Card In Play

I fully agree with you...this is another "wedge" issue the GOOPers have created to stir up hate and rile up the "base".

I've long contended that if you want to nip this "problem" in the bud, you fine the employer $1,000 a day for every undocumented worker they've hired. Wanna bet this issue vanishes in a hurry.

Just the term "illegal alien" is more GOOP framing...trying to demonize not just these people, but Hispanics in general. How much ya wanna bet VicoCindy has "illegals" taking care of her houses. Personally, I'd love for the Hispanics in the Southwest to go on a 24-hour general strike...it would bring the economies of these states and many more to a complete halt.

[Greyhound]

9. You got it.

It is true that there are myriad excuses that let the parasites off the hook, but the first time a large operation is shut down and it's executives are hauled off to court, the others will miraculously find a way to verify a potential employees legal status.

I'm talking about the most egregious offenders, companies that are actually recruiting and transporting these people in here. A huge fine and criminal charges tend to push the prominent fear button that all business executives have.

[UTUSN]

10. Yes, AND the draw of U.S. economic superiority, higher pay for hands-on jobs

Mexicans have said for generations two things regarding suppy-and-demand:


1) What the o.p. said, but adding onto it the VAST disparity of the economic conditions between the U.S. and Mexico, creating a sucking vacuum INTO the U.S. for Mexicans to do low end jobs.


2) That drugs would not be sent into the U.S. if there were NO DEMAND for them. But the bone-headed Rethugs have persisted in the so-called "War" on drugs, criminalization, and canceling REHAB social services and EDUCATION to diminish the DESIRE for drugs.

Also, that the U.S. has "two enterprises---manufacturing and selling ARMS. And then they get all upset when their customers start USING them!1"

[EFerrari]

12. The multinationals score coming and going.

They suck the life out of Latin America and when those people are forced north, they get their labor for next to nothing. What a sweet deal, no?