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If a man has a sex change, can he compete in the Olympics as a woman?

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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:09 AM
Original message
If a man has a sex change, can he compete in the Olympics as a woman?
Dear Cecil:

If a man has a sex change, can he compete in the Olympics as a woman? — Stephanie Ketchum


Cecil replies:

In our enlightened age, when science has made it possible to be the sex you feel like rather than the one nature stuck you with, some think it stuffy to insist on doing things the old-fashioned way. Why not let transsexuals compete as the sex they change to? Obvious rejoinder: Because it's no fair letting a hulking genetic male go up against smaller genetic females just because he now calls herself Kathy. But as always it's not that simple.

There's a history of men sneaking into women's sports, typically ordinary guys trying to take advantage. One was German high jumper Hermann Ratjen, who competed in the 1936 Olympics under the name Dora Ratjen, placing fourth. (In a confession two decades later he claimed the Nazis made him do it.) Soviet gold medal-winning sisters Tamara and Irina Press, sometimes called "the Press brothers," were widely suspected of being males in disguise, as were several other 1960s athletes.

The last straw was North Korea's Sin Kim Dan, who was riding high in 1964 after breaking the world records for the 400- and 800-meter runs — until her father came forward, recognizing his long-lost son. Determined not to be embarrassed again, the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) required women athletes to submit to a physical exam to prove their femaleness for the 1966 European track and field championships. The exam was a ludicrous procedure that involved parading en masse past three female gynecologists. Nonetheless, Time noted snarkily at the time, the Press sisters and several other female athletes decided to drop out of the competition.

The visual exam gave way to mandatory lab testing in time for the 1968 Olympics; DNA testing was introduced for the 1992 Winter Games. Blanket gender testing for the Olympics was abolished in 1999, although testing can still be done in questionable cases. As far as anyone knows, no men have snuck by recently.

But cheaters aren't our concern here. You were asking about genetically male athletes who believe they are, or ought to be, female.

Genetically anomalous athletes are rare but not unknown. Testing for the 1996 Olympics revealed that 8 of 3,387 female athletes had genetic makeups that by some definitions made them male. Some women athletes have an XY chromosome pair that makes them genetically male but suffer from androgen insensitivity syndrome, meaning their external sex characteristics are for the most part female. Example: champion Spanish hurdler Maria Martinez Patino, who was disqualified from a 1985 competition by genetic tests but eventually reinstated when she protested. One nominally female athletic star apparently was a hermaphrodite. Polish Olympic champion Stanislawa Walasiewicz (known as Stella Walsh in the U.S., where she spent most of her life) won the women's 100-meter run in the 1932 games and picked up the silver in that event in 1936. On autopsy following her death in 1980 — she was killed by stray gunfire during an attempted robbery — she was found to have sexually ambiguous genitalia resulting from a chromosomal abnormality known as mosaicism. (A few writers claim Hermann Ratjen was also a hermaphrodite, but I can find no contemporary sources confirming this account.)

That brings us to transsexual athletes. Most often they're normal genetic males who identify as female and want to compete as women. Tennis pro Renee Richards is perhaps the best-known case because of the fuss she made after being barred from the 1976 U.S. Open, eventually resulting in a court decision in her favor.

In 1990 the IAAF became the first major international sports body to recommend transsexuals to compete against their new peers. The International Olympic Committee followed this advice starting with the 2004 Athens games, with some restrictions. Most of these are common sense: Athletes who have sex reassignment surgery before puberty are automatically accepted as their new sex, while those who wait until after puberty must have all surgical changes completed, be legally recognized as their new sex in the country they represent, and have had hormone therapy for an extended period of time. For male-to-female transsexuals, this generally means a minimum of two years after their gonads are removed, presumably long enough to allow any androgen-driven physical advantage to abate.

We haven't heard the last of the argument. Some wonder how the IOC can crack down on performance-enhancing drugs while allowing "transathletes" to take hormones. The objection is specious, in my opinion; most banned drugs are intended to give you an unfair advantage, while female hormones are meant to make a possible unfair advantage go away. Still, medical advances have given sports officials some tough calls, and not just where gender is concerned. Who can forget South Africa's Oscar Pistorius, an outstanding runner and a double amputee? The IAAF banned him from competition in 2007 (the ruling was later overturned) because his artificial feet allegedly gave him too much spring.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/080822.html
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SteelPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
1. No
No is the succinct answer. A genetic male, even after undergoing a sex change, could still have an unfair advantage physically over women in certain sports (and a disadvantage in others).

I just wish the discussion over transgender, sex changes, etc, could advance to something more than a black or white discussion. There is genetic sex, which by itself is more complicated than man/woman; and there is gender, which is also more complicated than hetero male and female.

As far as sports competitions, I think gender has no place, and it really comes down to genetic sex. We're looking at fairness of competition here in physical sports. The interesting question I agree comes into play in the complex genetic cases as mentioned in that column, where an athlete falls outside the most common male/female genetic descriptions. Those questions who knows.
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Compete in the equestrian events and it won't matter. n/t
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. When a biological woman can claim to be a man and birth a child...
from "his" (intact) womb, what's left?

It's all good.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. At 5'6" and 47 years old
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 10:12 AM by maddiejoan
with virtually no upperbody strength, and a pack-a-day smoker I would say that THIS transexual (me) would be quite safe to allow entry into any female competitions in the Olympics and be absolutely zero threat to any of the other women. Hell, I don't even think I'd win a PTA sponsored sack race.

Seriously -- It's ridiculous to assume that a transgendered woman would have any advantage physically over a genetically born woman at all.

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dems_rightnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Nonsense
Edited on Fri Aug-22-08 12:23 PM by dems_rightnow
Men are, as a whole, taller, stronger, faster, and bigger than women are. They jump higher, and throw things further.


Becoming transgenderized doesn't change this.
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Runcible Spoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. OMG THOSE EVIL TRANSEXUALS MIGHT RUIN SPORTS RUN FOR THE HILLS
If you had actually read the article, which is fairly good on information, you would see that teh IOC takes this into account and has time restrictions on sex change operations. Hormone therapy for a genetic male to female hardly involves performance enhancing drugs.

God, it's as if some arbitrary measure of fairness in sports is more important than treating already misunderstood individuals like actual people.

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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. ....transgenderized???
SOunds like being sprinkled with Lawry's....or beaten will a spikey mallet.

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QueenOfCalifornia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. wrong
it does change this.

Because of the female hormone differences the transgendered body changes drastically. Loss of facial and body hair and muscle mass decreases drastically.

The transgendered female normally wishes to become feminized - to look and act less and less as a male.

Of course, every case is an different - some more successful in the classic sense - some male to female transgendered women do maintain broader shoulders and a larger bone structure.... BUT, that said, have you seen some of todays female athletes who quite naturally posses broader shoulders, taller and just plain bigger?

But to say that the body does not change after undergoing years of hormone treatment is incorrect.
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maddiejoan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. Nonsense yourself
Gender isn't a polarity with all men on one side and all women on the other.

Your post makes zero sense -- as does the notion that a transgendered female is by virtue of having been born male more powerful than a woman. You MIGHT make a case that they are more powerful as a woman than they themselves would have been had they been born so, but that's the best you can argue.
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cobalt1999 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. Nope.
Hormones are banned from Olympic athletes. Simple.


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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. Immediately brought this to mind:
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meegbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. ...
:spray:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
8. Of Course He Shouldn't Be Able To.
I'd think that to be obvious.
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. of course "she" could for some sports where more mental than physical
requirements...sailing (women can compete on par with men in many classes)
shooting sports, etc...

btw - A male that transitions is no longer a "he"

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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Pretty Obvious Even To The Not So Bright That The OP Was Alluding To Those Events In Which It WOULD
make a difference.

And the OP used he, so in response to the question and the terms within it, I used the term as well. Chalk it up to a case of 'who really gives a fuck'.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
14. Dimitri...I have some good news and some bad news....
First the bad news: You didn't qualify for the mens olympic team.....
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
17. For a minute there I thought this was going to be a Boojatta poll.
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dpbrown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. No.

The essence of the olympics should be competing with what you're born with, not with what you've tacked on or had hacked off.

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freestyle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-22-08 02:37 PM
Response to Original message
19. The IOC says yes, if she has transitioned.
And the logic (at the end of the article) is correct. A woman who has gotten there through surgery and hormones does not have any athletic advantages over a woman from birth. I'm glad the IOC eventually came to the right conclusion. FTM's are also eligible to compete.
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