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where is everyone getting the idea that Russia is out to invade half of Europe???

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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 10:20 AM
Original message
where is everyone getting the idea that Russia is out to invade half of Europe???
The responded to an attack on a semi-independent state whose status has been iffy for several years. They are announcing that they will be leaving Georgia by the weekend.

Why the hell is half of Eastern Europe all the sudden scared of a Russian invasion???

The world has gone mad!!!

:wtf:
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Condi!!! Stupid idiot.
She's swinging some heavy rhetoric around today; trying her damndest to start Cold War II.
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Sequoia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I wish she'd cut it out. I like Russia.
And China.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Our wonderful Media is perpetuating another myth.
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LSK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. yes but Poland believes it now
:shrug:
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scrinmaster Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well, they do stand a bit more to lose than from a Russian invasion than we do.
Edited on Wed Aug-20-08 11:11 AM by scrinmaster
And they have been invaded by the Soviets/Russians before.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Ok lessee
During WW I Russian (and German) armies had a lot of fun going all over the Polish Country side

Then came WW II where again Russian and German forces went all over the country side, and those were not necessarily Sunday drives

Those are the two major examples from history...

There are days... but picking a book on EITHER of these two major campaigns has MAJOR clues

And I am not even going into the other four hundred years of history between these two.
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dkofos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
4. From the idiots inside their TV.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
5. Look at this map


No, Russia now is not the Soviet Union. However, Russia thinks it is entitled to a sphere of influence outside of her borders just like the US. It is even called the Monroeski Doctrine (or thereabouts - I can't speak Russian).

That map represents what russia thinks her borders should be, with a phere of influence outside of that.

They get to be regional hegemon in the sphere of influence - and get to rig the rules so they get rich. Obviously Ukraine and Poland et al. don't like it.
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Marrah_G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
7. The threat to nuke Poland might be part of it..........
Hopefully some cooler heads can get the entire situation calmed down.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
8. bu$hco is taunting them hoping for a response....
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. Estonia is terrified of Russia
My parents came from Estonia, and I have an aunt, cousins and other relatives there. I speak the language fluently.

Even though Estonia declared independence from the Soviet Union in 1990, there is a constant worry that Russia will decide to annex them again. Putin has made it clear that he wants control over Estonia and other former Soviet states. Estonia has a strategically important port to the Baltic Sea.

A year or two ago the Russians staged heavy cyber attacks on Estonia, shutting down its government, just because the Estonians decided to move a statue of a Russian soldier from the middle of a busy downtown street to a Russian military cemetery. Russians living in Estonia rioted, vandalized and looted parts of the capital city, with encouragement from Putin.

The Estonians are a distinct nationality with a separate language and culture unrelated to Russia or its Slavic neighbors. Estonians are closely related to the Finns, and more distantly to Hungarians. Estonia was an independent pagan nation until some pope decided to order a crusade against it and its Baltic neighbors, Latvia and Lithuania back around the 12th or 13th Century. The country was forcibly conquered and people were converted to Catholicism at swordpoint. Ever since then, Estonia has been run by the Russians, Swedes, Danes and Germans in turn, except for 20 brief years of independence from 1918-1938.

Russia has no more right to take over Estonia than the US has to annex Cuba.
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MarjorieG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Because the GOP need another scary issue now. Rove was in the Crimea, why?
And couldn't appear before Congress? Regardless of the growing instability, made worse by NATO push, etc, for a while, why did Georgia start this, now?

Guess people are too resigned about Iraq and want it over.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
12. Try this.
Russia's not just defending Ossetia out of the goodness of its heart. It's saying something important, and not just to NATO.

Russia's claimed protectorship over Russians. Many Russians live in the Baltics. The Baltics and Russia have had fallings out over a lack of respect.

When Ukraine made loud noises over having the Baltic Fleet deposit 9k Russians who just happened to be ready to go to Abkhazia, Russia said they weren't honoring their agreements, and weren't showing respect.

Putin's said that Georgia must learn respect.

Did I mention that Russia meddled far more than the US in the "Orange Revolution" and there are millions of Russians who would prefer to be under Russia? They don't like the lesser khokhly--"Ukrainians", just as "wops" are "Italians"--in charge. It's wrong. And the only reason there's a majority of Ukrainians is, well, because the USSR grabbed ethnically Ukrainian lands to "liberate" them--and then loot and oppress them, making them an untrusted backwater.

Russia's also said they don't want hostile or problematic countries on their borders. "Problematic" often means "not doing as we want and being respectful."

Poland has a border with Russia, as a result of a Russian landgrab after WWII. One that nobody could undo post-1991, because the local population was cleansed.

Russia's ally, Lukashenka, has made "nice" by Poles living in Belorus'--part of Belorus' that used to be Poland, until Stalin demanded rewriting the borders and displacing a few million Germans and Poles as punishment for them and a reward for himself--by beating them up, closing their newspapers, and generally making their lives shitty. Russia's response? Eh. Poles. Georgians in Moscow got the same treatment in the '90s.

Some is ceremonial. In 2004 for VE day celebrations the German partisans fighting Hitler were praised. The Polish partisans didn't exist. Poland was merely passive and entirely owed their prosperity and liberty to Russia. Of course, the partition of Poland by Stalin wasn't at issue, either--often denied. The loss of monuments expressing undying gratitude to Soviet/Russian soldiers in war memorials--down to having "unknown soldiers" in most countries be Russians, "consecrating" Estonian, Czech, etc., territory with "Russian blood"--was humiliating to the Russians. Recently Medvedev spoke to a Russian veteran's group praising them for their service and demanding respect for them. "Respect." Ah.

Film was just released by a man in the Czech Republic showing strafing runs in Prague, tanks, and Russian troops generally treating Czechs as they're treating Georgians. With the same kind of disrespectful vocabulary: "We're in charge, you have to learn our place, we want stability, we're defending our legitimate interests, we're defending a faithful ally, we're just responding to attacks and unrest." Respect goes one way for chauvinists.

Trans-Dnistria is a replica of S. Ossetia. Right down to this year's being "S. Ossetian Year of Trans-Dniestria", according to banners still flying in and around Tskhinvali. Banners that I could only read in the photos because they were entirely in Russian. Trans-Dniestra is isolated, wedged between Moldova and Ukraine. Ukrainian or Moldovan action to regularize Trans-Dniestra's status would be interesting. Without it, most of the Moldovan/Ukrainian border is disrupted or potentially disrupted. As with Ossetia, there's a 3-part security force. As with Ossetia, should Russia decide to ignore the agreement, not much would happen--people don't care. There are about 30% ethnic Russians there for Russia to defend. As with S. Ossetia and Abkhazia, people have trouble entering and leaving; but there's a very active smuggling enterprise, largely in the hands of Russians. It's listed as "not free". Really only recognized by Russia, at a moment's notice 10k Russian troops could be flown in to "stabilize" Moldova, even if Ukraine were to be passive. Fortunately, there's no tunnel connecting Russia to Trans-Dnistria. Otherwise who knows if TD would have been the test case or not?

Russia's used its economic might against the Baltics, the Czech Republic, Ukraine, and W. Europe. Trains, for example. Oil and gas pipelines are also important. And it's used its proximity and some fear to get Central Asia in line. By cowing Georgia and exerting some control over the pipeline there, it makes both Europe and Central Asia more Russia-dependent.

Russian oil companies aren't private. They're not public. They're as many companies were in Central Europe in the 1930s: They're officially private, but with a Big Man relaying government orders to the nominal owners, with the threat of new ownership if the nominal owners balk. Many of the Big Men came from the security forces; are all Putin's allies. Most are nationalists--that can be ethnic, Soviet, economic, or merely military nationalists (or any combination of the above). They agree that the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century (for some, that's a minimum: Many see it as the greatest tragedy in many centuries).

Enough?

Well, then there are the centuries of Russian oppression and domination. You know how there's anti-Americanism because of coups and occasional odd invasions in Central/South America? Consider Cuba's constant "we're about to be invaded" mantra as an example.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. European History since at least 1801 and the rise of the Napoleonic system
and for poland, five hundred years of less than friendly relations.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-20-08 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
15. "Half" is an exaggeration; only a few Eastern European nations have reason to be afraid at present.
Edited on Wed Aug-20-08 04:33 PM by Donald Ian Rankin
And the reason for that is that Russia would dearly like to control them, and has just demonstrated it's willingness to invade and occupy its neighbours if given anything it can use as an excuse.
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