Poverty IS NOT an adventure

[nadine_mn]

dammit

So I have been watching and reading the growing media coverage of "saving money"... how to cut food costs, fuel costs, etc. Websites, local news, etc all have cute little articles showing a spunky and thrifty caucasian "roughing it" :

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/CollegeAndFamily/RaiseKids/CanAFamilyEatOn100AWeek.aspx

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;jsessionid=5CEC57BCB47A84C58ED6BBEF586721EA?contentId=7241041&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

I think my favoite is the Gourmet Meal from the Dollar Store
http://www.myfoxny.com/myfox/pages/Business/Detail?contentId=6940009&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=VSTY&pageId=4.1.1

"I've never seen canned potatoes"


Seriously... $1 per item is frickin pricey.. and that is assuming you have everything else we take for granted (cooking oils, spices, etc).

Poverty isn't fun, it isn't an adventure, it isn't about being creative by going "retro" (as in sooo last season) at H&M, it isn't a passing thing.

Now I know these type of stories are aimed at those recently experiencing a budget crunch, but the effect .. at least to me... is trivializing what it is like to really struggle.

I am fortunate now.. even though I have been unemployed for the last 10 months.. my husband makes enough that we still have luxuries like internet, cell phone, but it is tight. But there was a time when I had to drink powdered milk because that was affordable (shudder seriously nasty), when knowing which grocery stores had the most accessible dumpsters - you would be surprsied at what good stuff gets tossed, knowing when Goodwill had 50% off stuff, and how to juggle bills so that you are never on-time but not getting shut off either. I have had power, phone, cable etc shut off more times than I can count... even when we have a storm and the power is out, I first call to make sure our bill is paid.

None of the 2nd hand stores shown are the kind most likely to be frequented by low income people... Goodwill, Savers, Disabled Vets -these are where the bargains are and only get highlighted in Oct when the same human interest reporters are doing "cheap Halloween costume ideas". Once my husband balked at buying pants at a thrift store and I asked him.. what do you think happens to the clothes we donate? Are you better than the person who is buying your shirts and jeans? That made him think and now he is a lover of 2nd hand shopping too.

I know what it is like to be at the food shelf and dreading more creamed corn and mac & cheese... NOTE to all well-meaning food donors... mac & cheese assumes you have milk and butter... that can be expensive. Canned chicken instead of tuna was a treat, and so was any type of snack food.. because everyone needs to snack.

I love when people criticize low income people for eating fast food... that dollar menu is cheap and fills the belly, and when you have been working a long day or double shift... no one wants to go home and be "creative" in the kitchen. You want to eat, watch tv, and then go to bed before doing it all again. Praying the car starts, or walking to the bus stop and spending nearly 2 hours between transfers and stops to make sure you keep your minimum wage job, hoping your kids don't get sick because you can't pick them up from school, and hoping you don't get sick because you can't take time off.

And if you can't afford a car, or no access to a bus... well then ride a bike! Really? Because its not just on nice sunny days you have to ride that stupid bike, its also rainy, humid or cold ass winter days. And what kind of bike do you have? Nothing Lance Armstrong would be caught dead on... nope some used, broke down 2nd hand bike. Arriving to work all sweaty in clothes you have to try to wear 2 or 3x before washing because its expensive at the laundromat (and have you biked to the laundromat with you and your kids clothes?). Low income people don't have the luxury of good health either... so that bike ride.. can be frickin murder. And nothing screams "call child protection" then picking your kids up from school on your ten-speed.

The people doing these "human interest" stories are always so relieved to be done with their "challenge" and go back to regular life.

When do the thousands of Americans living below the poverty level get to be done with their "challenge"?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

1. K and R. nt

[beam me up scottie]

2. Ditto

K&R

[knitter4democracy]

3. I've noticed those stories, too. More than a little annoying.

Those people just don't get it. You're right--a dollar for some of that stuff is expensive. They just don't understand how tight it is out there for too damn many people.

[tbyg52]

76. I find the things offensive

Instead of trying to fix the system, let's have some handy dandy coupon tips.

[undeterred]

4. How do you get to the food pantry or the grocery store

if you don't have a car or money to buy gas? Where do you store food that needs to be frozen or refrigerated? You get food where its closest.

If you don't have a lock for a bike or room to keep it inside, it gets stolen.

There are a million challenges.

[raccoon]

5. Off to Greatest! Great post. I couldn't agree more.

Poverty is NOT a g.d. adventure!

[The2ndWheel]

6. The price to be paid for forcing everyone into the same economic system

It leaves people with nowhere to go.

[Bluenorthwest]

7. Well said, well done...

And hell yes.

[Warpy]

8. "The Beans of Egypt, Maine"

The preface covers poverty and what it does to the people who find themselves trapped in it. Carolyn Chute's novel, which she admitted differed from real poverty because real poverty was a lot more boring, covers everything from being shut out of jobs and the health care system to being shut out of every program that might make one's life a little better because some bureaucrat has decided between the deserving and undeserving poor and the frayed clothing that you can't get clean in the kitchen sink has thrust you into the latter category.

No one chooses poverty. I didn't. All the chirpy people on the television who think it's an adventure are in no danger of experiencing it any time soon.

Poverty is simply something you survive day to day. Or don't.

[raccoon]

9. Yeah, and when you're poor, EVERYTHING is a major pain in the ass.

You need work done on the car. You need dental work. You need to go to the doctor. Doesn't matter what it is, you don't have the money for it.

[demilib]

87. What is really depressing about that

Is that it would happen almost at the same time.

[bobbolink]

146. And going for "help" is another major pain in the ass---being treated like scum just

doesn't help your day at all, you know?

Thanks for understanding.... it's a really harsh world....

:cry:

[rucognizant]

195. Yup!

The tank on my diesel rabbit is leaking, so I can't take advantage of the cheapest fuel in a year and fill it up................
Waiting for money from the kids to replace it.
My well water is polluted..............coliform, has to be dug up, clorined, & flushed...............FIRST I have to find it!
I am trying to get a person with a metal detector....at least the firehouse has a faucet outside, so I don't have to buy spring water, and with only 1/3 of a tank of fuel, anything more runs out, I can drive around town.
I am trying to beef up my art offerings, get a website, make cards to sell..........but can't afford to buy new printer ink........
and produce more artwork...........really hard to clear my head to be creative...........
The garden is a joke! I've always had a good garden vbut this year the tomatos & potatos have a mosaic virus, the squash have mildew which rots the squash, and they misplabeled the 6 packs so I have all these summer squash which don't freeze well,.. last year I had butternut all the way into March...............
No picnic!

[trof]

70. Terrific book. Read it many years ago. Still have a copy.

[CampDem]

10. K & R

[Coventina]

11. Sing it, sister!

I grew up on powdered milk. Never knew there was any other kind 'til I was in school & saw the little cartons in the cafeteria.

Oh, and the "adventure" of being homeless? That was the best!

Well, I suppose that we can look forward to these chirpy news stories become more serious as things get worse. (Which I predict they will).

[nadine_mn]

75. I still only drink skim milk... 2% is like cream

tried whole milk once... about choked...lol

One thing I do miss..government cheese... that solid block of orange goodness..

[cliffordu]

84. Yep - we got that the first of every month for a couple of years...

[Coventina]

85. Yes, in that sense I'm grateful to my poor upbringing

If I'm feeling indulgent, I drink 1%. 2%, like you said, is like rich cream.
I don't even know how people drink whole milk.

[AlbertCat]

258. Whole Milk

Lordy!

When I was in prep-school, they had a working dairy out back. Our milk in the cafeteria had cream floating on top. It practically had chunks of butter in it.
YUM!

Fat tastes good!

Wimps! (I'm teasing!)

I drink 2% now because skim milk is like chalky water. Whole milk is just too fatty to be good for you.

As for poverty.... Why shouldn't the Government help its citizens who need it? What the hell is it for? They certainly help Corporations who don't need it. Tax breaks for Exxon? For Corp's that ship jobs overseas?
If Corp's were made to pay their taxes, and the churches too, we could all have a big personal tax break AND help those on welfare as well. We could probably pay our debts.

[amyrose2712]

113. mmmmm

Yumm! Now that brings back memories.

[Joe Chi Minh]

114. After WWII, our welfare state in the Uk really was something to cherish.

All school-children were given a third of a pint of milk at "milk time", so that none of us were too deprived of nourishment. We were also given free cod-liver oil and orange juice for a while. (One of the first things Thatcher, Reagan's pal, did was stop the free milk for schoolchildren). My wife remembers being given a spoonful of orange-juice a day at school, but I remember them both at home - and how much we detested the cod-liver oil.

Whe you see the poor we mites today in their thin wee shell-suits, and see a photo reminding you of the fifties, in which in winter every child wore a proper overcoat, mostly pleated too, I think, it's sickening. The Government managed this, even though people still lived in relative poverty. VERY relative, in comparison to today when even the utilities are privatised, and accommodation isn't virtually automatic, i.e. for very low rent. It was a low cost, low pay society, but if not all-found, almost so. Since 1980, it's been becoming a "higher and higher cost and lower and lower pay" society - with a special "rip-off Britain" surcharge on everything. We pay literally thousands of pounds more for the same cars as our Euopean neighbours.

[mntleo2]

260. Powdered milk is now very expensive ...

$3.19 for a 3 qt box in my area! If you do the math, it is not that much less than fresh milk. That can be quite tough to come up with, especially with the bigger boxes. I still buy it and use it in a lot of cooking that requires milk. Did you know that it can be whipped into a creamy whipped topping too? You can disguise the taste with a little vanilla (expensive too now, but just a little) and sugar. I also "disguise" it by making a hot chocolate mix so my grandniece will drink it and it is her favorite drink. She doesn't know that I can make a batch of her "foffee" that can last up to a month and a half and stretches the milk (she calls it that because her Nana has coffee in the mornings and so she has her foffee).

I also find those articles on TV, or in a magazine about saving money with $400.00 jeans and such as insulting. Puleeeze.

I go to the food bank every week. You would not believe who goes there. A lot of elderly who used to live middle class and now have to choose between dog food for dinner or their medicine. Lots of young people who work jobs. Kids, little kids with their parents who barely get there in their old cars, that also get them to work. I am seeing a lot of middle aged people who cannot find work due to age discrimination. Lots of older women especially, who when I worked as a volunteer in transitional housing, are well educated often with master's degrees, lots of experience on the job, and no criminal or substance abuse issues. The ones who have no support base such as welfare, they look for work and nobody will hire them yet are not old enough to get social security, but young enough so that some tenured social workers with good state medical and dental, lots of perks such low cost housing loans, free bus passes and with a nice pension looks at these women and say, "Hey you should go down there to Labor Ready and dig ditches, even though you have a bad back from working your ass off at wages that paid $.70 on the dollar at crappy jobs for 35 years! Get up and go apply you lazy old woman, I cannot help you!"

Poverty is a bitch. It is almost inescapable. Often, when I hear those stories of the ones who escape poverty, well it makes me bitterly laugh. It is like the kid who thinks shooting hoops every day after school will someday make them a billionaire basket ball star like Kobe Bryant. He does not realize that for one Kobe there are millions of kids like him who will never even see the inside of an office except to pay a bill. People on the outside of poverty do not realize it takes connections and lots of help to "make it" even to get into college, much less land a decent job. They actually believe they achieved all they had "all by themselves".

I actually had a woman on this forum once who was outraged at the anger of the working poor. She had worked her way into a tenured college position and she told me she "worked hard" to get it. No shit! This is a good thing and I admire it but ...Does she think the mother working a McJob or two and raising 2 kids married or not, does not work as hard if not harder than she does? Why should this tenured woman's "hard work" be somehow "more" than the low income mom who "failed" (thanks to a low paying job because of sexism, racism, a dying economy, and expensive basic needs such as heat, food and transportation) while she succeeded? At least the low income mom is raising kids that are going to run this nation after her, pay the tenured woman's social security and take care of her when she gets old. Give me a break!

I just got information about MIT's free classes they offer. One was about policies and poverty. It was so full of crap I had to shut it down. The professor had *no* clue about what to do about poverty, but they have all those degrees and so they "know" so much more than someone who has LIVED poor all their lives. As an activist for low income people it is often stunning when low income people make sensible, insightful suggestions that are met with glazed eyes because the suggestions did not come from some doctorate who does not have a clue. These "expert's" solutions are often hair brained and stupid, but will they listen to someone who might know from the ground what could be done? Oh no! Lets enact Welfare Reform that thrusts low income women and their families into lifelong poverty and (brushing hands together) "There all solved! Aren't I SO smart??? Now gimme that 1/2 million dollar grant so I can pay myself a nice salary and suggest some more stupid ideas and then force them on my guinea pigs ~ errrrr ~ I mean my clients ..."

Poverty as an adventure indeed!

My (bitter) 2 cents as an activist and low income person for almost 40 years ...

Cat In Seattle

[Coventina]

269. The saddest part is that most middle & upper income people

don't realize that the system is rigged against "escape."

I'm finding it to be true more and more.

And yes, the age discrimination you mention is just downright frightening to me. "Education" is always held out to be a magic bullet to "solve" poverty. But by the time many poor people have a chance to get an education, they are middle-aged and no one wants to hire them!

And don't even get me started on the diploma mills that target the poor that promise good careers after you incur massive debt to them.

And that's not even mentioning the whole financial system that poor people are often forced into: "Payday Loans" "Rent-to-Own" (Or as I like to call it: Rent from us & we own you!)

Now it's becoming a question of having access to high-speed internet access. I am most DEFINITELY a second-class citizen since I have dial-up only. It takes me 10x longer to conduct business. And so many businesses are doing things only (or mostly) over the internet now. Either that, or wait on hold forever on the phone.

Okay, that's my rant for today. I'm sure there's more...

[mntleo2]

291. And Age Discrimination Is not "recognized"

...meaning that businesses sure as hell won't cop to age discrimination. The government refuses to recognize it either, just try to find out any statistics on age work discrimination as far as hiring practices are concerned. Not easy to find. I mean really, when you see some elder WalMart "associate" who was once an engineer, tell me, is he working that job because it is "fun" or to pay the health bills his "donut" refuses to pay because no industry would dream of hiring him at his age? Huh? But since it is not recognized, well see if you are middle aged, you didn't get hired because you are overqualified or whatever excuse they can legally use. Nobody looks or cares ...

And sometimes I wonder at the stupidity of government and corporations who might benefit greatly from that man's wisdom, experience and insight, but n-o-o-o. Here is a 'fer instance':

My aunt is 88 years old. In WWII she was a teletypist for the Air Force. When she got her first computer, she was able to learn it easily because she once worked with the original "computer" ~ a teletypewriter. She offers her expertises for free with her friends and all, but she is financially struggling thanks to a husband who dumped her for a younger woman and left her, his wife of 40 years who stayed home and took care of their children and him, as women in her generation did. She was left with no pension, no financial help, nothing from the government that would be of help, a mortgage to pay still (until he died of a heart attack at the younger woman's place and had forgotten to divorce her so the insurance paid that off, oh yea, karma is a bitch!). With her kids gone and living in completely different states trying to make ends meet themselves, who do try to help her long distance, and thanks to her church she has attended lifelong (Brethren, a gentle loving caring community who care for their own as well as the world), she has gotten through. But wouldn't she do even better if someone would hire her to teach or use what she knows as a real life JOB if she wanted to do that? I mean even if she was paid decently (or compensated say with something like more medical insurance) for a weekly class she gave to other elders, or if the government created an employment opportunity program that would subsidize pay for her to do secretary duties with enough to help her through? Hell there are things she could even do from home but n-o-o-o-o. She is still driving, also driving others of her generation around to appointments as well, still taking care of herself and her home, and she was willing to do that, but nobody will hire her at her age. What wisdom she has to offer! What common sense she has to teach! What history she remembers and knows first hand! I know because she teaches me and every time I see her, I learn something new from her!

Sheesh.

Cat In Seattle

[lumberjack_jeff]

283. Thanks for this.

FWIW, 2% milk in my area is a little over half the price of powdered milk.

I have some powdered on hand in case the power were to go out for a protracted period like it did last winter, but I use it mostly making bread.

Poverty IS a bitch. When people of my parents generation were growing up they usually say "we were poor growing up, but I didn't realize it at the time". These days, our consumer culture makes growing up poor patently obvious to those forced to do so.

[Hydra]

286. Similar experiences both IRL and here on DU

I think of poverty as a disease that only the people who have it want to find a cure for. The rest want to quarantine and/or eliminate us.

It's doubly ironic considering that poverty is not a natural condition- it's like what they said in the second Matrix movie:

Morpheus: "Everything begins with choice."
Merovingian: "No. Wrong. Choice is an illusion, created between those with power, and those without."

By limiting options, eliminating possibilities, those with power force those who are not willing or able to fight back to take a second or third class role in society- even as they do the work that is vital to keeping society afloat.

People's lives are cheapened by how much money they are allowed to make, and most of society gleefully does what it's told in that regard- they devalue others, and by extension, themselves.

It doesn't matter though- the order seems to have gone out that the US will be a third world country. You and I will have a great deal more involuntary company in the next few years, and as I have said before, if that's what it takes for people to lose their illusion of being protected and feeling superior to others, then let it happen as fast as possible! The sooner we all see eye to eye, the better.

[nadine_mn]

294. excellent points

And I don't find your remarks bitter at all... in this thread a few have said I am bitter but really I am not.

Yes you have to find humor in little things, and not every moment of my life has been one dark cloud (although it has moved over and stayed for about a year now). Being poor sucks, being raised in poverty sucks, having to raise kids in poverty sucks and growing old in poverty sucks.

When everything is a struggle, the good times are precious and wonderful. My family taught me to suck every stinking drop of happiness out of everything because that is free. And it works.

My husband who grow up middle class and never needed anything or really wanted - best clothes, always had food, shelter, stable parents and a good secure life everything, in a way, I lacked as a kid. But I feel sorry for him (he knows this) because he has no sense of joy. That squealing, giddy feeling that can come from something as wonderful as puppy breath or mundane as your favorite snack.

He laughs and is happy... but he never has joy... hard to explain.

No matter what happens, I always see the bright side...he sees the negative. When we were in an accident, he bemoaned the damage to the car.. I was grateful because our SUV (horrors) absorbed the worst of the impact. If our SUV had not been there, the car ahead of us, an elderly couple on their way to their wedding anniversary with their daughter and son-in-law, would have been smashed into the back of a semi.. and probably would have died. We walked away from the crash, had insurance, and were very lucky. That is the gift knowing how bad things could have been which makes you appreciate how good things are.

So our rental house has mice - free cat toys, crappy insulation - more cuddling, etc.

Would our life be easier if we had more money - oh hell yes.

There has to be truth about poverty - the ageism, racism, sexism, and class divisions that make it nearly impossible to get out of poverty. There has to be a willingness to take responsibility for the role we all play - by who we vote for, what we stand for, how we set our priorities rather than blaming "those" people.


Oh and btw...my grandma made the awesome hot cocoa mix with powedered milk, creamer and nesquik.. way better than anything else.

[mntleo2]

307. Poverty = seeing the sweet things in life

...I will say that having a sense of humor and looking on the good side of things helps when one is in need.

Recently I suggested to the non-profit that distributes food at our food bank that we should have a cooking show on Public Access using food bank food. As well as just showing how to use the food gotten, we could show people how to cook ethnically with what they get or how to prepare vegetables that are not familiar, etc. We have a large population of Hispanic and Russian folks who are new to the (especially) packaged foods and they can't read the cans they get because well, it is in English. Just set down a "typical" box of food bank food and let's see what can be done with it ...

Then, what the hell do you DO with the stuff? Well I am an expert on taking all that and making a delicious meal that even my kid's friends want a bite of because their moms do not have the time or knowledge as to how to cook even if they live upper income. One thing about being poor is, since you cannot afford to eat out or buy the ready-made stuff at the store, you learn to make the most delicious foods out of what you have and can afford.

I suggested we do it with someone with a French Chef personality, dressed to the hilt with chef's hat and coat. She could hold up a loaf of bread and say in her French Chef voice: "Now see this bread? It has a little bit of mooooold on the bottom of the loaf, but," reaching into a drawer with the other hand and bringing out a bread knife, "you can just cutt itt off like THIS," swiping the knife over the crust and cutting off the mold, "See?" Or an Emeril-type personality who takes some limp lettuce and while holding up and then throwing away the slimy and limp leaves, then chopping up what is left says, "See? Bam!"

Seriously however this would not only teach people how to cook with food bank food, it could raise the consciousness of people who were not poor as to what is needed and where to donate, etc.

And the truth is no poor person will EVER see a Public Access show, they cannot afford cable, that is the joke in some ways, lol!

I just thought if some idiot could make national fame being "Mike Hunt" (say it slow and you will get it) smoking a bong and having topless women on his show (he was eventually banned but not without a fight), why could we poor not use some humor and get the attention of people who have nothing better to do than sit in their Dania-decorated dens and turn on their plasmas to have a laugh all the while unaware we are sneaking in some education about poverty?

Everybody loves the idea! It is putting in some humor to poverty that would get the ideas across. Now if we can just get some energy going to do it ....

Cat In Seattle

[Marrah_G]

12. I agree with almost your entire thread

I'm a working class mom- single, barely making it.

Edit: this sounds way more pissy then I meant it to and after reading the links I realized I mistook your words. Just sort of a touchy and sensitive topic. Many times my children and i have gotten by on 20 cent packs of ramen noodles because I have 5.00 to last until payday. School clothes? there is nothing left for that luxury.

[Sal Minella]

23. I think the "spunky caucasian" is intended to imply, "Look, poverty happens to WHITE people, too!"

[tavalon]

237. Which, in fact, it does,

but not to spunky.

[MUAD_DIB]

242. EdZackery.

Did they need to bring in a few consultants to explain to overpaid spunky how poverty works?

You wouldn't want them to lose touch with real Amurka...

[cliffordu]

13. No Kidding......

So why would you want to take a shit on the way I live??

If your utilities are being cut off it's because you are trying to live too far above your means and have no basic budgetary skills. Maybe you should dump your house and live in a singlewide, That's what we had to do when I got sick.

I get my clothing at the Goodwill, and a couple other charity shops in town. I got a set of 3 pans and lids - Revere-ware there for $12.00 yesterday. I have all new wool sweaters for winter by shopping there regularly. 6 bucks for a NEW cashmere sweater is fine with me. I'm glad your husband really likes shopping there now -you sound like you think it's beneath you.

Prepackaged food like the garbage you listed is stupid and, basically poisonous, Why waste the GAS to go get fast food when you can get bulk foods and learn to fucking cook a meal for a lot less. I do cornbread for two meals for about a buck.

Get used to riding a bike or walking or taking the bus or working a second job just to put gas in your car because it ain't going to get any cheaper. I say five bucks a gallon next year.


My wife and I ride bikes everywhere; in the snow, sun rain, blah de blah de blah. There isn't a fucking thing stupid about it.

My wife is going to be 60 this year and I will be 57. We cannot afford a car but I really really don't care...Do without one for a while and see them for what they are: Financial slavery dressed up as the 'freedom of the open road'. There is a lot less convenient about them than you might think.

The time it takes to live your life on a bicycle means you have to live on purpose - you have to plan your route and bicycle load to be efficient and timely. It is a more human scale than sitting in traffic, and faster a lot of the time. Oh, yeah - I don't care what Lance rides - I have a cargo bike that can haul 200 lbs.

The problem with posts like the one you made is that you ASSUME people need an artificial set of things - cars - electronics - toys - clothing - to be happy and not live in "poverty".

It ain't true and for you to think you speak for me is insulting. Somehow I don't think you spent a lot of time in "poverty" because of your obvious disdain for living beneath what you consider to be your station in life.

I never hear anyone complain the way you do about what they have to do to get by if they are REALLY at a point of dumpster diving or eating Food Bank Mac and Cheeze. And I talk to them all the time.

The next time I want some spoiled yuppie denegrading the way some of us live I'll call you. Until then, why don't you go put something on a credit card at the mall???

[Coventina]

19. Wow. I think you really misunderstood the OP

You say: "If your utilities are being cut off it's because you are trying to live too far above your means and have no basic budgetary skills. Maybe you should dump your house and live in a singlewide, That's what we had to do when I got sick."

Really? Are you serious? If someone's utilities are being cut off it's because they are trying to live beyond their means? How would you know that? And that's a big assumption about budgetary skills. How do you know that the poster was living in a house? She might have been in a singlewide, or an apartment. Sometimes no matter how you budget, you don't have enough to cover the basics.

And where are poor people supposed to buy bulk food? At Costco? Can poor people afford Costco memberships? Or drive the distance to one? Or have large freezers & refridgerators to store all this bulk food?

The poster did not say that riding a bike was stupid. She said people assuming that it's an easy alternative for poor people is stupid. Please read carefully before flying off the handle and being so insulting.

I also didn't see anywhere in the OP where she said that electronics and toys were needed to be happy.

The OP was on your side. Why are you being abusive to her?

[Joe Fields]

28. I'll second what you said.

Reading comprehension skills needed.

[cliffordu]

30. Well....

I don't need the OP on my side.

I don't need her empathy, sympathy or solidarity. If she really wants to help, she should lobby for a raise in SSDI. Give all the money she can to a food bank. Help a shelter clean all their blankets so fewer homeless die of exposure this winter.

It's one thing to spout expertise on poverty on a message board and another to actually DO something to ease the problem. If one of ten people 'concerned' about poverty in America actually DID something about it, there wouldn't BE any poverty. I'm not talking about donating outdated creamed corn to the foodbank every Thanksgiving, either.....

She's right about one thing, though, and that is this is not an abstract exercise for a lot of people in this country. More all the time. Some of the people on this very board will experience "a downturn in financial solvency" before the end of the year.

Poverty is a reality for my wife and I. But that's just financial poverty, not spiritual or psychological poverty. Just because we're broke doesn't mean we feel sorry for ourselves or need the pity or 'concern' of anyone else.

And that is because pity is one thin notch away from contempt.


Here's my real beef: Just because I drove through South Central Los Angeles on the surface streets once doesn't make me an expert in what it's like to be African American in the USA, so I don't attempt to speak for the people living there by ranting about MY TAKE on their living conditions.

That's all. If the OP wants to help, great. If not? Thanks for your 'concern'.

[nadine_mn]

50. How much do you donate?

What the hell kind of comment is that?

You don't know what I donate or how I do my best to give everything I have to those who need it more than me. And why don't you know... because I don't advertise "hey look at me I donated to a charity" and you didn't ask.

Since I have been the one receiving food on Thanksgiving and been hungry the rest of the fucking year, I make sure to donate year around. I have worked in domestic violence shelters, and made sure clothing, cleaning goods, toys, etc got "donated" to a family who needed it and were moving out and had nothing.

Why should I mention it - so you can be proud of me? I have been so fucking poor it hurt... and I hated it. Hated being the only kid in school without a home to go to - sorry if that makes me artificial. And the whole "at least we had each other"... let me look at the scars from being burned by my dad ... aww fond memories.

I survived and it made me stonger and a better person, for that I am grateful... doesn't mean I have to like it

[Hannah Bell]

103. there's nothing to "do," because poverty is structural, not the result

of individual failings.

most people don't have income-producing property, so they have to work for someone else.

half the work pays less than &40K/yr, & there isn't enough work for everyone.

so the people who have to work compete with each other for the "good jobs," & someone has to lose.

losing is demoralizing, & separates people from their fellows, encourages hate, fear, envy & destructiveness on both sides.

the charity industry exists to disguise these basic facts.

i resent the cruelty of this structure, & the lies & hypocrisy it spawns.

[bobbolink]

"the charity industry exists to disguise these basic facts." If I were granted ONE WISH....

....It would be that EVERYONE would understand the reality of your sentence!

the charity industry exists to disguise these basic facts.

:applause:

[Naturyl]

157. I'll third that.

It also exists to shore up the big lie that economic failure is a result of individual qualities and should be addressed on an individual level.

[Sal Minella]

262. Yes. It isn't the corporations' fault if an individual lacks sufficient spunkiness to reach up

into the branches of the great benevolent capitalist Tree of Wealth and pluck the largesse from its branches, now, is it. Got it.

[Naturyl]

185. Here's what U.G. Krishnamurti had to say about the "charity industry."

"Charity is the filthiest invention of the human mind: first you steal what belongs to everyone; then you use the policeman and the atom bomb to protect it. You give charity to prevent the have-nots from rebelling against you. It also makes you feel less guilty. All do-gooders feel 'high' when they do good."

It's harsh and perhaps unfair to the truly well-intentioned, but you gotta admit, he has a point.

[Hydra]

288. It's not harsh

I decided after I read lots of moaning and groaning about how much effort things would require to be fixed in 2006 to look into the bedrock of our system to find out how really hard it would be.

I went problem to problem, and found the solutions to be rather easy. One of those fixes was the issue of "charity." Were I in charge, I would eliminate volunteering and donation entirely- societal support programs should be well paid positions and well staffed and equipped locations. There's no excuse for that being our dead last priority(along with education).

It should no longer be thought of as charity, any more than going to the doctor or a lawyer is. It shouldn't be a matter of "doing good" so much as "doing it right."

Our society begins and ends with people. How we try ourselves and others is telling on how we value society itself.

[Joe Chi Minh]

295. Remember the puzzled musing of Archbishop Oscar Romero - who, incidentally,

had been a conservative all his life: "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me Communist".

[bread_and_roses]

159. I'll fourth that - and bobolinks and Naturyl's comments too (n/t)

[bobbolink]

161. Hannah for President!

:)

:yourock:

[Naturyl]

175. Now THAT would be "Change we can count on."

Too bad what Americans really want is "the illusion of change we can count on."

Nothing against Obama, whom I fully support and will vote for. So don't start that, anyone. I'm making a deeper point and I'm sure it won't be missed by those it is directed toward.

It's certainly not missed by the guy in my avatar, for example. Nor was it missed by Wellstone and Bernie Sanders.

[bobbolink]

178. I wasn't kidding.

I'd vote for Hannah in a heartbeat... or less.

All you said and more.....

:cry: :patriot: for Wellstone, and now Tubbs-Jones....

[Two Americas]

225. excellent

I wish I could recommend your post.

"I resent the cruelty of this structure, & the lies & hypocrisy it spawns."

Yes. So do I.

[tavalon]

240. I really think we need to start thinking communally (btw, I'm just using your post as a jump point)

If people banded together in extended families of origin or choice, I think many of us would be so much better off. I'm not at all sure the nuclear family model was our best idea. Of course, I'm biased because I have chosen exactly that route. I live with a small group of chosen family members. We make very disparate incomes but have chosen to embrace household socialism. In an earlier post on this topic, I mentioned that I spend over a thousand dollars a month on my stepson, for special food, medications and therapy but actually, it's Flooby Nooby (our household name) that spends that money. Each of us gets a stipend that is the same amount each month and the rest of the money goes into a communal pile(From each according to his ability, to each according to his need). We all decide together what we will spend on. I wouldn't have joined had they limited my son's access to his needed help but that isn't an issue. Buying convenience foods IS an issue but luckily one of our family members is on disability and he likes to cook so he cooks from scratch many of the things I use to buy as convenience foods. Since I work 12 hour shifts, there is no chance that I would do that during my workweek, but I don't have to. Now, he brings in about 1/6th of the dollar bills that I do, but his ability to make the household work right in a million ways is just as valuable as all my dollar bills. That's what I love about our socialism, every one is valued similarly for our very different talents.

At one of our sister communities, one of the guys there used to live in the city and he used to shoot the breeze with one of the homeless guys who sold Real Change. He found out that he did handyman work but was homeless because every winter he would get seasonal affective depression and wouldn't be able to keep a roof over his head. So M. hired him to do a bit of work for him and when M. moved to the country he took this guy with him. We have all come to know and love J. He's been with that community now for about 3 years. Unfortunately, now it's looking like he might have cancer. He doesn't have insurance and neither of our communities can pay cash for his care but I am helping him to navigate the medical maze at Harborview and if he needs surgey/chemo/radiation, we will all help him to recover. And if, heaven forbid, he is destined to leave, he will leave with family gathered by him, chosen family.

I love being in community and while it's not a cure all, I do think it's something we should think about placing in our arsenal, both for our spirits and for the practicality of it. Especially those who will be on the losing end in this recession/depression fucked up debacle the ruling class has thrown us into.

http://www.thefec.org/ is a great place to go explore the possibility

[whathappened]

144. wait a minute here

i thought her beef was the way the news people are giving advice to the poor on how to get thru hard times , this is something that is easy for them to come up with when they don't even no what they are talking about , so jumping on this womens post is insane , i was raised in a poor family , my father worked hard but we did'nt no any diff , what we had was all we had , clam down and if u do no what it is like to be a bottom feeding like me and others , it is alful and alot of stress comes with it

[bobbolink]

176. Isn't it amazing the amount of just pure hate that is posted on poverty threads?

Best to you....

:pals:

[Naturyl]

188. It's learned hate...

From the beginning of life, almost all of us are taught to associate poverty with "failure," and this association is reinforced by every cultural institution and authority by defining "success" solely in economic terms. From the time we learn to speak, this message is constantly reinforced and almost never questioned. In addition, we also learn that nature itself rewards "the fittest" and that the way of things is for "the weak" to suffer and die. Without an understanding of what constitutes the naturalistic fallacy in ethics (which consists of erroneously deriving a moral "ought" from an empirical "is"), the resulting assumption is that nature's way is the right way, or at least "the only way." This establishes an insidious undercurrent of social Darwinism which colors our perspectives irrevocably. Combine these factors and you have a recipe for hate - blatant, undisguised hate in the right wing, and subconscious, repressed hate among many "progressives."

Psychology is a funny thing... and BTW, I apologize to certain contributors for momentarily forgetting that as a poor person, I'm too stupid to manage money or understand "basic life skills." I'll try to do better. Tell me about the rabbits again, George.

[bobbolink]

278. If we were to face actual facts, we would have the terror of confronting a cherished myth:

That anyone can "make it" in the U.S.

[Joe Chi Minh]

117. And it was SHE who asked her husband if he thought he was better than

than people who'd received the clothes he'd given to a thrift shop. You sound the kind of guy who'd bin-ride/dumpster-dive and ride a bike everywhere if you were a millionnnaire.

[SammyWinstonJack]

21. .

:yoiks:

[beam me up scottie]

26. What a nasty vile post.

It reads like something you'd find on freeperville.

The op is obviously struggling but yet she managed to speak up for those who are in worse shape than she is.

If you could see past your own snout you would have recognized that she was speaking up for you, too.

Pathetic.

[cliffordu]

31. Hmm.. I disagree with a feel good post and you call me a freeper?? Hmm...

[beam me up scottie]

32. Reading comprehension trouble again?

DUers attack their own often because they misunderstand intent, and it is tough to judge based on anonymous posts.

Perhaps if you'd have asked for clarification before going all Congo on her ass you could have spared yourself a rant or two.

That tantrum was mean and completely unnecessary.

[cliffordu]

33. Post #30

[beam me up scottie]

37. I read it.

You still never asked for clarification, you just went off on her. I'm not scolding you because I've done the same thing many times. But I usually regretted it later.

[cliffordu]

38. It's true. I could have phrased what I said better. I'll send her a pm.

[beam me up scottie]

42. You are a true gentleman.

You just hang on to that anger and I'll hang on to mine and hopefully it will carry us to victory in November.

I'm still learning how to channel my fury and use it to enlighten people who don't know what it's like to go hungry and remind those that have forgotten.

You just made my day, thank you. :)

[cliffordu]

44. You are welcome, my friend. And thank you.

[northernlights]

79. the chip on your shoulder

is falling over your eyes, cliffardu. Here's the cliff notes of her post:

The OP is poor. She grew up poor, without a home and physically abused by her father. She apparently did ok for a while, and now has fallen back into poor.

She sees the shit on the evening news programs about "how to save money" which basically is how well-off yuppies can cut down on their expenses and has no resemblance whatsoever to the daily reality that most Americans live.

She's not offering you sympathy or empathy. She's angry at how the msm portrays poverty as temporary fun and games, when for so many people it's not temporary and it's never fun. I fully understand her (out)rage, even though I'm not there yet, I've been there and think I'm heading back there, so I get it.

I can't even imagine riding a bike to work where I live. Snow? We're talking 25 below zero with high winds. Even the ocean freezes over most Januaries.

But we had a very poor man up here who spent many, many years riding and walking his bike daily on unimaginably dangerous rodes (they drive well over the limit, like "maineiacs" here) to pick up bottles and cans to supplement his disability.

Note the operative word, "had." Last spring a rural gang of teens in "wholesome Maine" beat him up so badly he was hospitalized and died.

Another harsh reality of poverty.

[cliffordu]

83. I was wrong. I sent a pm to her.

[AllHereTruth]

224. Posts like this are why i love the DU.

Hopefully you find the next 8 years more sustainable than the last 8. Hopefully you and your wife can get a better footing, maybe even a well placed helping hand.

You deserve it sir. For nothing else than you can look in the mirror and say "i was wrong." <---True class like that is dead in America today.

[nadine_mn]

47. I grew up poor and have been homeless

I have tried to make $10 stretch a week. When I was a kid, we didn't have a refrigerator and had to walk a mile to the convenience store to buy ice and single eggs.

This was in 1978, and I have had to struggle for everything I have through now. Oh and you are goddamn right I have no budgetary skills... when you have nothing, budgeting is easy. Its when you get a little extra... I honestly spend every single cent I have... because I have no clue how to save. I am not proud of it, but its like spend it before someone takes it away.

I have never said shopping at goodwill is beneath me... its what we could afford, and I was trying to explain to my husband its not beneath him.


If I am a yuppie.. well that's frickin hilarious...

I know that I have been poorer than dirt, I don't care what the fuck you think. And as I grew older, I have made some poor choices because I wanted to have to cable even though I couldn't afford it, wanted a cell phone, wanted to live like my peers instead of being constantly reminded what a struggle my life is. if that is what makes me such a yuppie.. well ok, then I am yuppie.

I went a long time without a car, and hauling groceries, trying to wash clothes, etc is a pain in the ass... I am glad you have the health to ride a bike and haul 200 lbs.

I have't had a credit card in about 10 yrs... because I started off responsible (charging necessities, paying off he balance) then went bucknuts during a major depressive episode. I never want that again.

I have never owned a house.. we rent and you would be surprised at the type of "houses" I have lived in - floors that slant, no heat in half the house, mice infestations, etc but it was all we could afford. After living in a car as a child, I do not take housing for granted.

Also glad you have the energy to cook homemade meals... I know that after walking a mile to work, standing on my feet for 10 hours, walking home, the last thing I wanted to do was cook.

I wasn't happy being poor... it sucked. Glad it works for you.

[sandnsea]

92. I hear ya

There are some damn judgmental people around here. I think they use their poverty as a badge of honor or something. I don't get it. I think poverty sucks too.

[Naturyl]

158. While poverty isn't a "badge of honor"...

It also isn't a badge of shame. The ugly implication that it should be is often just below the surface when people accuse others of "being too proud of your poverty."

Not saying that's true in your case, because there's really no way I could know. But it often is, sadly.

[sandnsea]

173. Excuse me

When someone gets on a soapbox and lectures about making a chicken stretch for a week, or eating beans and rice on a daily basis, they're either using their poverty, maybe as a guilt stick, maybe as a badge of honor, or, most likely, they aren't poor at all. Nobody who knows what it is to have no other choice would inflict it on anybody. It isn't a matter of shame, it's a matter of misery.

[Naturyl]

190. No, excuse me. What on Earth are you talking about?

Who here or anywhere else has offered the slightest suggestion that they would "inflict" poverty on anyone else? Good lord, maybe Bobbo is more right than I realized. Sometimes it seems like people are refusing to listen to entire posts and replacing them with imaginary ones. Is there a foreign object in your ears or what? People are on here talking about the misery of poverty and you have the nerve to suggest that they are full of baloney *because poverty is miserable.*

Boy howdy. Sorry for the tone, but sheesh. A guy gets worn out.

[sandnsea]

200. I wonder too

Because I've got no idea what you're talking about. I'm agreeing with someone who is responding to the OP about how happy he is to live in poverty. I think he's lying or living modestly by choice, not necessity. That's been my experience when I've gotten to know DUers better over the years. I can't tell you the number of "helpful" poverty posts I've read, only to find out the person isn't anywhere near poverty and never has been. Or, that the person is living in a low income situation, without kids, by choice to achieve some other goal, like a down payment or degree. The OP didn't say anything about shame, she said boatloads about misery.

[Naturyl]

202. OK, I agree that phonies exist.

I've run into them all my life. But beyond that, I guess we're having some kind of massive "wires crossed" moment because it would seem that both of us feel the other is not addressing what we are actually trying to say. If I have a part in causing that, I apologize. Beyond that I don't know what further response to give you.

[sandnsea]

217. We'll just chalk it up to wires crossed n/t

[DustyJoe]

82. Amen to the SingleWide

Been there done that, still doing it.

[Naturyl]

153. Same here.

14x72 is the way we roll in my household. Except we don't roll anymore, because the axles broke.

[tavalon]

245. I had a really interesting childhood that I think has served me well

It included living in a middle class neighborhood, living hand to mouth with my newly single mom, living in a mansion and I finished it up living in a single wide with my grandparents who were living on social security. The only thing that sucked about the singlewide was when a tornado took the end off. There was much more awfulness inside that mansion, I promise you.

I think it was my childhood that made my belief that it isn't the trappings that make one happy it's the attitude (that and blind luck).

[Sal Minella]

265. You've noticed how lucky people are the ones who insist there's no such thing as "luck."

People born with the silver spoon are the first to tell the rest of us that pluckiness and hard work and spunk and gogetteriness and more hard work is the cure for the poor person to aspire to.

And the lucky ones always get all peevish when anybody mentions "luck."
There's probably a country-western song in there somewhere.

[Coventina]

270. You're born on third & you think you hit a triple

is the way I heard it described once.

Seems spot-on to me.

[tavalon]

296. And I'm the exact opposite

I know I've been lucky just based on happenstance. That I choose to be grateful for my luck is in fact, my own angle.

[RaleighNCDUer]

212. Do you work at being an ass

or is it a natural talent?

[tavalon]

238. She wasn't speaking for you, she was speaking for herself

and her experience is different from yours and yes, attitude is part of it. But I see both of you wearing a chip and I don't really think it's good for either of you.

Here's a third yet point of view:

I'm lucky. Not smarter or better, just lucky. Eighteen years ago, I was a bank teller and wanted to do something more career like. I had no idea what I wanted to do so I decided to do what my mother had done. I went to nursing school. That was back in the day when one could go to a state college and tuition was manageable - not insane like it is now. I paid as I went and had no debt when I got out. It turned out to be my calling and nowadays, up in the northwest, they actually pay nurses a decent wage. So, while I'm not wealthy , neither am I poverty stricken. Nonetheless, I haven't seen the inside of a mall (except last month when I got a free haircut at a posh salon that was training their new stylists) in about 15 years. I feel mortified when I even get near one. I rarely go to movies because it just seems wasteful to me. I love to dumpster dive because I love the treasure hunt. You know what they say - one man's trash............ The only places I shop for clothes and kitchen supplies and towels and sheets are thrift stores because, again, I love the treasure hunt and the knowledge that I'm not financing the sweat shops quite as much. I live in a small intentional community because I like walking more lightly on the earth and I love the extra perspectives of my fellow conservationists. I garden because it feeds my soul and my tummy.

So, I must have tons of money saved, right? Nope. I have an autistic stepson and I spend at least a thousand dollars a month (probably more - I don't really watch it too closely) on his special foods and his medications and therapy. And I do it happily. He pays me back every time he smiles or laughs.

I'm just so very lucky.

[Silent3]

263. I'm in the process of selling one house and building another.

I'm not poor or out of work, but even then, it's a difficult, stressful and expensive process.

When you casually toss off a remark like, "If your utilities are being cut off it's because you are trying to live too far above your means and have no basic budgetary skills. Maybe you should dump your house and live in a singlewide, That's what we had to do when I got sick.", it sounds like you're totally oblivious to how difficult that might be for some people. Every situation has it own nuances and complications. However you managed your particular crisis is hardly the only metric the entire world should be judged by.

I'm not sure how you worked things out, but when a loss of employment or large medical bills hits suddenly, out of the blue, it's not necessarily a matter of "no basic budgetary skills" if you hit a rough patch for a few months before you can get financial matters in balance again.

What if a person doesn't know how long a period of unemployment will last, or is waiting out a fight with an insurance company over some very large medical bills? You think it's a no-brainer, casual decision to immediately sell your home, a home you're hoping you can still keep if and when the crisis you're in resolves itself? You think all homes sell so fast that selling a house to move into a singlewide is always going to save you from a few late bills that might cause you to get your power or phone cut off? You think every house is immediately ready to sell without either pouring a lot of time and money into making the property more attractive, or that people should casually accept selling their biggest asset at fire-sale prices in uncertain hope that such a painful choice will make the property move faster?

Are you aware that many people who keep good budgets, who at one time had equity in their homes and who certainly have not been "living beyond their means" are currently "upside down" on their mortgages, owing more money to the bank for their house than they could possibly sell their house for, simply because real estate values have collapsed around them in their neighborhoods? What do you expect these people to do in a crisis, other than be strapped paying a lot of their bills, maybe getting phone and power cut off, until they're forced to default on their mortgages?

You may have done well and very admirably dealing with your own financial problems, but that doesn't mean you're necessarily in a position to make blanket condemnations of anyone else who doesn't end up managing their own possibly very different financial crises as well as you did.

[dajoki]

271. why don't you go put something on a credit card at the mall???

Because after a series of unforseen circumstances like becoming disabled, wife losing job, serious illness of our child we were left with NOTHING, including credit. I was lucky to get my home out of foreclosure, but that didn't change anything, we still have to skip a bill in order to pay another. We have never even attempted to live beyond our means, but things happen, does that mean that we should give up everything we worked our entire lives for? You do not know the circumstances of the OP, so your accusations are baseless and cruel.

[krabigirl]

293. Maybe you should learn to read a post before spouting such hatred.

[QueenOfCalifornia]

14. K&R

I watched GMA last week - (good morning america) and they did several segments on how to save money - My favorite was:

"Look at these jeans! I bought them on sale! They are normally $475 a pair and I got them for "$195! Now that is a considerable savings!"

Uh.... Shit heads.... Most of us do not spend even $100 for a pair of jeans not to mention getting them on sale for $195.
Wow, now I can finally figure out how to keep from having my house foreclosed on - Just buy expensive jeans on sale!!!!!

[Odin2005]

53. Many so-called "upper-middle class" people live in a bubble out of touch with reality

The so-called "upper-middle" class tends to be filled with people who have the LUXURY to be so concerned with thier image that they wouldn't be caught dead in public wearing $20 jeans from Wal-Mart, nope, in their twisted reality $475 jeans are a "need." :eyes:

[sendero]

99. And many people who THINK they are upper middle class..

... are about to find out that they aren't.

[snappyturtle]

268. Hope this doesn't sound mean spirited but I think your supposition

needs to happen. Maybe some newborn economic humility is what it will take to get this country turned around and to address domestic issues.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Gormy Cuss]

24. Welcome to DU.

If the kids are eating just rice for dinner, perhaps there's no money and it's not related to the electronic geegaws.

The X-box may have been donated by a secret santa, the cells and DVDs may have been given to them or bought for cheap on the secondary market when the family had more money. Even at retail some DVD players are under $30 --maybe grandma gave it to them last Christmas. Maybe the cable isn't a legal hookup. More to the point with perhaps the exception of the X-box those items have zilch in resale value.

It's amazing to me that no matter the decade, there are always people ready to criticize low income people based on their possessions without having any idea how the person arrived where they are today.
It used to be criticizing us for having any TV or telephone. People used to criticize my family because my mother "owned" the house after the divorce. Well, none of the little busybodies knew that we had no insurance and every year needed to scramble to avoid being evicted for back taxes. When something broke, it didn't get fixed unless we couldn't do without. We flushed the toilet with buckets, lived without gas, had some windows that we couldn't open because the frames were so rotted that my mother was afraid the whole thing would fall out. It was far cheaper to live in the house than move our large family to a rental and because of the neighborhood, the value of the house at sale would have paid for rent for less than a year -- after that time if we were lucky we would have qualified for a public housing unit or substandard apartment.

[rynobales]

27. Welcome to reality

I'm not criticizing low income people as a whole, I'm saying there are two types. If you don't understand that because you haven't lived it then take a look around. Don't you think cell phones, cable tv, and the like are marketed to lower income people? It's the perfect sale for them, someone who can maybe only pay their bill for 3 months, so they only have to give them 3 months worth of service and then tack on a $150 early termination fee. Typical minimums for cable tv and cell phone service will run you about $60 per month total. Those are a constant monthly charge, not a one time charge or something they can resell. Decent food at the grocery store is not that expensive. If you have an 8-10 year old with their own cell phone with a plan that includes texting and you can't afford to eat decent meals, the problem is with you, not with anybody else.

[Gormy Cuss]

35. This post is so far removed from reality that I don't know how to respond.

Throwaway phones. Cable TV on an illegal connections. I have lived the reality. Many of my families do now. As for your two types, quantify how many low income persons fit into each category if you can. The example you provided is close to the classic welfare queen canard.

[rynobales]

36. No no no, I have lived the reality. No, I have! No, I have lived the reality...!

Since we have both lived the reality of lower income, this should be an equally fair discussion ;)

I would have to say that around 34,952,600 people are truly lower income and 37,800,001 are not truly lower income and have 8-10 year olds with cell phones with texting priveleges that probably don't need them.

No, seriously, do you understand your argument here? You're saying apparently that EVERY low income family out there is truly 100% struggling and has absolutely no hope to get through this on their own. I'm saying that it's true, there are many people like that who live every day honestly trying to get by on what they have and will only survive with help from all of us and there are also SOME people who have their priorities messed up and COULD probably do better for themselves and their families if they would keep better track of their finances and spending.

If you can't admit that SOME people out there take advantage of the system and you will just throw government money at everyone no matter the circumstances, then by trying to help everyone you will in fact end up helping no one.

[Gormy Cuss]

40. I understand that you're making stuff up.

I asked you to quantify the number of people in poverty who are like your anecdote, which you apparently think is more than half based on your made up statistic. That leads me to believe that you have no clue how frequently it occurs. By the way, if I were to make the foolish contention that no one in poverty has their priorities screwed up I wouldn't have asked you to quantify it.

Can you state that you know the family in your anecdote acquired their toys by using the food money?

Can you admit that you aren't knowledgeable about the national level rate of persons stuck in poverty because they won't take care of themselves, as opposed to can't? I could dig up some stats on it if I had the inclination but I worked in national-level assessments of low income programs for long enough to state that the rate is very low. Welfare queens aren't the norm. In fact, they're quite rare.

[rynobales2]

43. Sorry if I offended

Apparently, someone in the DU community was unhappy with me and banned me from conversation. Not sure if it was this topic or the other one I had posted on, but I'll stop giving my opinion now.

Good luck to you all who ban the posters trying to have conversations that encourage thought and strive for understanding on both sides.

[Snarkturian Clone]

52. never mind NT

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

122. You were banned because you're a right-wing poor-hating lying fuckwad. But I repeat myself.

I know you're still reading this, so go sodomize yourself with a pineapple. Sideways.

[bobbolink]

Actually, we get EXHAUSTED with people who post hate against those who are barely making it.

But maybe the suicides from Katrina gave you a thrill.

[bobbolink]

71. Thank you!

And the white horse you came riding in on. :hi:

Really, I so much appreciate seeing your great words here!

:applause:

[Naturyl]

135. Shut the fuck up.

Oh, you got a granite pizza?

Oops, I guess people DO get what they deserve, eh?

How does "nobody's fault but your own" suit you now? LOL.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

148. Best. Animated. Gif. EVAH.

Bookmarking.

[bobbolink]

151. Thank you. It needed to be said.

I wish these idiots who see so many "frauds" would have to go apply for "help" a few times, and experience first-hand just how much fun it is to be treated as scum..... and that's on their good days.

Yeah, it's our entertainment... we go apply for everything we can find, because it's SO FRIGGIN' MUCH FUN TO BE TALKED TO LIKE SHIT!!

Thank you.

[Naturyl]

162. I barely even believe in the concept of "welfare fraud"

It might occasionally happen in a few egregious cases, but most of the time the perceived "fraud" is somebody claiming a few hundred measly dollars a month in benefits which they are almost *always* rightfully entitled to both morally AND legally. Studies show that fewer than 1% of food stamp recipients, for example, are determined not to be entitled to the benefits they receive - in other words the fraud rate for this (and other) welfare programs is in reality astonishingly low.

The real trouble is that these types, looking for any excuse to demonize a group they already resent, see a poor person with an X-box or the like and conclude that fraud of some kind simply MUST be involved. They are able to cling to this conclusion because they have no awareness of the difference between *relative* and *absolute* poverty - nor the fact that relative poverty in industrialized nations is PROVEN to be every bit as psychologically debilitating as absolute poverty in developing nations.

Sorry for the lecture, but Jesus, when the colleges and the media aren't even *trying* to do their jobs in regard to this shit, somebody has to.

[bobbolink]

172. And, of course, we KNOW the goody-two-shoes MUDDLECLASS and RICH NEVER

cheat the government out of ANYTHING, right?

The sainted corporations are ALWAYS on the up and up, aren't they?????

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[Daemonaquila]

197. EXTREMELY rare, but when it happens the right-wingers love it.

Nothing makes them happier than being able to point to a horrible "welfare queen" for the media. Never mind that an actual "cheat" is probably one in several thousand - it's "proof" that everyone getting government help is dishonest, lazy, and should be suspect at best.

If I remember the circumstances correctly, there was a government employee strike in a mid-sized city some years ago, and they decided to deal with welfare, food stamps, etc. by approving all applications since there weren't enough management folks to do all the verification. They found out that they *saved* money by just helping all the people who asked for it rather than making them jump through hoop after hoop, month after month.

[Naturyl]

207. Heh, that's great.

That's going in my clip of ammo to use against the anti-welfare crowd. They saved money by approving everyone. It's perfect, and given the 3-ring circus that is the application process for most programs, it makes a lot of sense.

Any chance you can document this so I'll have a link to give them when they (inevitably) demand one? Remember, these people will accept the most outrageous ideas imaginable at face value from their preachers and their party, but if you say anything that supports welfare, you'd better have it written in stone. Suddenly they sprout critical thinking skills out of nowhere and become more skeptical than James Randi.

[cliffordu]

163. I get to go get reapproved next week - they lose BILLIONS in Iraq and they're going to

limit my foodstamps cause I made an extra 100 bucks last month...

[Naturyl]

166. That's called "priorities."

We know where theirs are, eh?

[bobbolink]

174. Just puke up on 'em and their office.

That'll prove you don't really need to eat.

Sorry.... I know that is gross.... I'm just so damned sick of all of this!!

Good luck to you..... I'll be sending you some soothing thoughts, because those kinds of appointments really DO make me puke!

[cliffordu]

196. Thanks for the good thoughts.

:hi:

[tavalon]

247. That is fucked up!

There's just nothing else to say about that.

[Joe Fields]

277. That is one of the problems that poor people face.

State governments, well, at least my state government has no bridge to allow a family to wean itself away from state aid. As soon as a mother or father finds work, then ALL aid gets cut off. There absolutely has to be support, until the family can support itself without the help of the state.

[bobbolink]

280. You're absolutely, completely right. And sane. NOW....

where do you want to go with that?

You see, the problem is, we poor folk have NO SUPPORT among "progressives" and the Dems.

We are depending on YOU, (plural...as in the southern Y'ALL) to start making noise, and come together to change this crap!

We NEED YOU!

:yourock:

[Joe Fields]

284. Thank you, bobbolink.

It has been my experience that only organized coalitions ever get any notice from legislators, and usually only well funded organized coalitions that will benefit said legislators. It seems that in this country consumers have trouble organizing, and when it comes to those of us who can barely survive, it is next to impossible to organize a strong coalition. Alas, because we can't grease the palms of politicians like so many trade groups can. So, your question was, what can I do? Not enough, is my short answer. A longer answer is that my family and I (of very modest means) donate clothing on a regular basis, as well as purchase and donate usable items to food banks. Items such as toilet paper, shampoo, washing detergent, toothpaste, dog food for pets, etc... None of these items can be purchased with food stamps and are badly needed.

So many people here in America are just one paycheck away from financial disaster and not much further removed from becoming homeless.

It wasn't very long ago that my family got kicked out of section 8 housing, because when my seventeen year old son found a part time job, we didn't report it. Family services found out and told us we either had to come up with over ten thousand dollars in back rent,(they went back to the very beginning of when we first moved in, even though my son's income had only gone unreported for four months, or we had to move out immediately.) We had to move out immediately and my family had to split up, with my son having to live with my older brother and my wife and I moving in with my younger brother. We were fortunate that family members could take us in, until we were able to get back on our feet. So many people aren't as lucky. It took awhile, but we turned things around.

What I have found that is both interesting and sad, is that those who have little means are more charitable than those who seemingly have it all. Often is the case where we are treated less than human by people who are in the upper tax brackets.

I am not aware of any coalitions to gain favorable legislation for the poor, but if you know of any please share them with me. It is only a matter of time before the ranks of the poor have swelled to the point of no longer being able to be ignored by those in power. The future does not look bright for this country.

[EstimatedProphet]

255. And in particular, it's because you get to live like a king!

:eyes:

My wife and I went through an unemployment period a couple years back, and her UI was denied. We tried to get welfare, and what did we find? In order to get welfare assistance at all, it would be limited to $330 per month, and both of us would have to make ourselves available for full-time day labor. In other words, welfare would mean both of us working full-time in order to receive a total of $330 per month, which is less than half of minimum wage! Wow! sign me up! I'll even quit my job to take advantage of that gravy train!

[bobbolink]

285. Oh, that's not even half of it... you will be guaranteed to be treated as shit, too!

Yes, we're all just clamoring to fraud the gov out of that much fun!

did you ever see the video, Equal Pay Equal Work? It's well worth viewing, and quite the education. It used to be shown on LinkTV...don't know if it still is...

I hope things are better for you now!

:hi:

[Regret My New Name]

51. My brother and sister in law are like that...

They keep making kids too. It's really sad to watch, actually.

Ehnn, freaking drugs are to blame though...

On the flip side, my mother was the opposite. She was single mother (for the most part) and she really tried her best to make due with what she had... Did the whole government assistant thing, but she went to school and got a degree... Anyways...

[loyalsister]

41. The cell phones serve a purpose

One beyond the reality most of us experience.
They are there because of environmental factors.
When leaving kids with babysitters who don't have credentials and are simply in desperate need of money, wouldn't you want your kid to have a cell phone?
It's not the best child care available, but it's the least expensive.

[tavalon]

246. There are far more than two types in any income bracket, actually.

[shrike]

281. I used to do my parish's Secret Santa thing

Which was distributed to disadvantaged kids in our area. We were always asked to give clothes; we were given the child's age and size, though no other identifying information. I bought the clothes, but I always threw in something fun; inexpensive, but still fun. a stuffed animal if the kid was small enough and it was a girl, candies I knew wouldn't spoil. Hell, it's Christmas, kids deserve to get a GIFT. I can remember how disappointed I was when the only thing for me under the tree was clothes. (We weren't poor, btw.)

The Shop-with-a-Cop program takes kids on a one-on-one shopping spree with a man in blue and the kids get to buy ANYTHING they want. Some of them choose to blow the whole wad on a bike. Good for them -- I'll bet some judgmental folk say, "Why are those people at a food pantry when that kid has a new bike?"

[Gormy Cuss]

290. Yes, I'm sure that some people do think that..

Bikes are relatively cheap these days but to a kid who can't afford one they may as well cost a million dollars.

The local newspaper here does school supply drives each August and they specify a pretty long list of items to be assembled in a new knapsack and every year they explain that they want everything to be new and in the original packaging because they want the kids to feel good about it. It's a nice idea but I'm betting that the sheer volume of stuff overwhelms some of the kids because they have so little.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Those with poor money management skills are hit harder by misfortune.

Our family is low income too, (significantly less than $40k/year for a family of five) but we do okay - partly because we have good financial sense, partly because we have useful tightwad skills (I can fix my own car and build my own house) and partly because we saved diligently when times were good. Looking in from outside, you would not guess that we have such a low income... unless the topic is what's on TV, shopping, eating out, new movies or or "going out". These are topics of which we're wholly ignorant. Our older kids have cellphones, which they finance through working for neighbors.

So we're lucky, to the degree that a family of five with the main breadwinner making $16/hour can be considered lucky.

The major problem with our budget is the fact that we live 10mi from the nearest town and 22mi from work. We spend more on gas than food.

My point is that it's not either-or. Poor folks don't necessarily have only themselves to blame, but poor life skills do contribute to the severity of adversity.

Poverty can't be solved without helping people acquire life skills.

[Odin2005]

56. Teens need to be taught basic buget-keeping in high school, they aren't now.

When I was in sr. high school (I graduated in 2004) Home Economics was an elective, it needs to be a requirement.

I'm lucky that I inherited my mom's prudence and stinginess when it comes to money. My family is not exactly poor but they are very much working class and living from paycheck to paycheck. Unlike many people my age a new video game or new computer game (for example) was a luxury I got for Christmas or my birthday, not something my parents just went out and bought if I begged hard enough. Computers themselves were something you used until they stopped working, not something you replace every other year. We didn't have cable until 1999.

[Naturyl]

164. Yours was a deeply paternalistic post.

I make 637.00 a month and have an IQ high enough that specifying it would make me look like a jackass. Would you like to do some charity work on my behalf and come teach me some "life skills?" You got any Tony Robbins tapes? I just love him, and that nice smiling Money lady that's always on the TV, too. Tell me about the rabbits, George. Maybe later we can discuss Quine's influence on the analytic/synthetic distinction in 20th century philosophy. After you teach me how to count money, that is.

And don't think I'm some anomaly, either. Yours was just a kindler, gentler version of the "stupidity and ignorance cause poverty" argument, and I wish people who feel that way could have a conversation with some of the poor people I know...

[lumberjack_jeff]

192. People of every socioeconomic background have poor money management skills.

The difference is that poor people can't afford it.

$637? Is the market for smug intellectual superiority not what it once was? Perhaps you could go into business selling snark.

You might as well share that IQ score, it won't change appearances to any appreciable degree.

$637 is about 30% more than the income for each member of my household. Perhaps you're premature in rejecting that advice.

[Naturyl]

198. Hehe, very predictable response.

For the lack of any more substantive counter, you chose to paint me as a boasting snob. And you know what? That would be a very tenable argument except for one thing:

I ONLY mention my IQ, qualifications, intellectual work, independent study, or any of that in ONE type of thread and one type ALONE. Yep, that would poverty-related threads. And guess what ALWAYS occurs before I do so? Yep, you guessed right again - somebody states or implies that poverty is caused by stupidity or ignorance.

Guess what? Chances are I find people who boast about their IQ or intellect at every opportunity just as obnoxious as you do. Good thing I don't do something as silly as that. I mention it in one specific circumstance ONLY - and this thread meets the criteria. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

For the record, I do thank you for clarifying your statement regarding money management.

As for selling snark, it certainly appears to be a buyer's market tonight.

And now, just so you can carry on thinking I'm smug and self-absorbed, I'll close with an appropriate snide remark - class dismissed. :)

[lumberjack_jeff]

214. I'm not the one doing the painting.

You'd think with those amazing IQ scores and impressive psychic skills with which you can intuit implications where none exist, you'd do better economically.

Here's your homework; it's open-book, use Kant, Aristotle, Carlin or even your navel if you wish. What could be my motivations (as a low income person) for holding the view that "poverty is caused by stupidity or ignorance"?

Hint: I don't suffer from cognitive dissonance to that degree.

Second hint: Many of my friends with much higher incomes envy "our stuff". They suffer from envy due to lack the ability to discriminate between needs, wants and wants that can be deferred.

I suggest that Vicki Robin might be a more relevant literary influence.

[Naturyl]

216. Hoo-boy, you don't know when to stop digging, do you?

Thanks for confirming that my initial impressions about your attitude toward poverty were correct:

You'd think with those amazing IQ scores and impressive psychic skills with which you can intuit implications where none exist, you'd do better economically.

Nicely done - a double-whammy, in fact. Belittle me based on my economic status while simultaneously affirming the belief that the size of one's bank account is determined by their intelligence (or lack thereof). Hats off to you.

Here's your homework; it's open-book, use Kant, Aristotle, Carlin or even your navel if you wish. What could be my motivations (as a low income person) for holding the view that "poverty is caused by stupidity or ignorance"?

Heh... could be any number of things. Did I claim to be a psychiatrist? Nope - but I do have the number of a good one if you're in the market. ;)

"Second hint: Many of my friends with much higher incomes envy "our stuff". They suffer from envy due to lack the ability to discriminate between needs, wants and wants that can be deferred."

Cool. Congratulations. Your point?

[lumberjack_jeff]

274. Economic conditions play no role in the impressions we give online.

No one cares where you live or what you wear.

They do care how you treat others. You have brought as much defensive righteous indignation as you can possibly summon to bear on someone whose standard of living is not significantly different from yours. You've chosen to do this based solely on the stereotype you've formed about anyone who dares suggest that people have some degree of control and influence over their economic experience.

People make economic choices. Those choices affect their quality of life and their standard of living. Poor choices when you have limited resources yield a poor quality of life. Throwing more resources at the problem without changing the often poor decision making, yields little benefit.

The stereotype you've formed about me based on that simple, and to my mind patently obvious observation is causing you to leap to a great many conclusions - all false. Sadly, you appear to place more faith in your ability to evaluate information to reach reasonable conclusions than is warranted.

Cool. Congratulations. Your point?

The point is that different economic choices yield different outcomes. Even you. I've seen your website and it's quite good. Since you've said that limited income inhibits your quality of life, you should consider a career in web development.

[Naturyl]

298. Won't argue most of your points, but I do have some rebuttals...

Surprised? There's not much to argue with. You accuse me as follows:

"You've chosen to do this based solely on the stereotype you've formed about anyone who dares suggest that people have some degree of control and influence over their economic experience."

And I basically plead guilty. I don't buy the basic premise that underlies the statement, so of course I'm going to draw conclusions based on that. What else do I have to go on? You're pushing the view that poverty is to some degree a person's own fault. I'm disagreeing with that using the tools available to me. Where's the problem? Would you rather I just concede? Okay, poverty is a person's own fault and blaming the system is just an excuse. If a person has too little, they should have been smarter, more ambitious, more dedicated, etc. Want me to call Neal Boortz and shout it from the rooftops? He loves that kind of stuff.

"The stereotype you've formed about me based on that simple, and to my mind patently obvious observation is causing you to leap to a great many conclusions - all false."

Really? Okay, if you say so - but the only conclusion that matters to me in the slightest is the conclusion that you buy into the idea people are at least partially responsible for their own poverty. And you do, so what else is there to establish? I don't care about your living conditions an income any more than you care about mine - except for the caveat that I don't blame you for yours. You, apparently, could not say the same. Instead you helpfully suggest a "web development career." Yep, never heard that suggestion before. Never been prodded to write a book or that sort of thing, either. Comes as a complete stunner and now that i know it's possible, I'll get right on it. To do otherwise would be to ask for poverty.

"The point is that different economic choices yield different outcomes. Even you. I've seen your website and it's quite good. Since you've said that limited income inhibits your quality of life, you should consider a career in web development."

Mmm-hmm. Well, I only make sure to mention the fact that I'm disabled about 2400 times in this and pretty much every other poverty-related thread. But hey, what's a disability, right? Sure sounds like victim-mentality buck-passing to me! I'll stop making excuses and cure that pesky sucker later this evening, and after that, it's straight to the good life.

Oh, and by the same token, I'd say you write pretty well. So how come you're not kicking back in a jacuzzi yourself? The technical, business, and entertainment writing fields are wide open, man! Grab that brass ring before it's too late!

[lumberjack_jeff]

308. I do make economic choices and they have resulted in my economic circumstance.

When we found that my youngest had autism, at about the same time that I was laid off a fairly high paying (and high stress) gig, I chose to not look for outside work in lieu of being a stay at home parent. We made a great many economic choices, from the drastic to the nearly insignificant to enable that. The best "job" I can do to contribute, consistent with being a stay at home, is active frugality.

I do acknowledge that if I were willing to make the trade-offs necessary to obtain more income, finding good work would not be a piece of cake, but not impossible and not outside my control.

Personal experience shows me that I can't buy into the idea that individuals are completely economically powerless. Frankly, I think the opposite view isn't good for a person's mental health.

I am not suggesting that all, most or even many people choose poverty. But I have chosen near-poverty as a trade off required by care for my son. A working spouse, medical coupons for the kids, reduced price school lunches and child tax credits help a great deal.

It strikes me as counterintuitive that a hypothetical person could not choose full-on poverty, in fact I think it'd be really simple. All one must do is avoid choices altogether.

FWIW, I am on the board of a local nonprofit dedicated to helping the developmentally disabled. Many of our constituents get SSI (or SSDI). One of the staff of our organization recently attended training about benefits management. In most cases, it is possible to have economically beneficial employment (or self employment) and retain your benefits.

[BreweryYardRat]

132. For what it's worth...

A high-speed internet hookup can give you all the other entertainment you need via BitTorrent, Azureus, and other services, if you know what to look for and how to look. Books, music, movies, TV shows, you name it, and it's available online, at a hell of a lot cheaper ($40-50 a month for the connection) than buying it. Hell, your average DVD costs $20, half the monthly cost of a high-speed hookup that can download a couple of dozen DVDs a month. (ESPECIALLY if there are any TV shows you like, since those can run $40-$100 for a season set.)

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. Right. DSL is the last luxury that I'll give up. n/t

[Zuiderelle]

143. Jeez... Where are these cockroaches coming from?

Glad the bug spray came out on this one.

[Obamanaut]

16. The best post on this topic I have ever read. Ever. K&R nt

[Solly Mack]

17. I'm clapping

Thank you!!
K&R

[wryter2000]

18. Thanks for your post

I'm kind of curious about canned chicken, though. The last time I tasted it, it was seriously nasty. I'd prefer tuna any day.

[Gormy Cuss]

20. "I've never seen canned potatoes"

That's a classic. I knew kids who had never seen a whole potato.
And that mac & cheese---I suspect much of it is served as plain boiled mac.

Thanks for this post, nadine_nm.

[PVnRT]

22. K&R

:kick:

[BlooInBloo]

25. It's better than *no* light being shone on poverty at all, imo.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. The Articles Are Perfectly Fine And None Were Trivializing A Thing.

In fact, it appears that you just used those stories as a springboard to go off on some unrelated poor me type rant, to be honest with ya.

The articles were written well and informative, and I don't see the slightest reason for you to have gotten bitter over them and to rant as you did in the OP.

So the articles didn't apply to you or your income level. Oh well. But to be so bitter towards them for that? Unwarranted.

[EOTE]

34. Did you see the dollar store segment?

You think that was informative in the least? It was just ridiculous posturing pretending that would be helpful for anyone who was trying to eat on a budget. She didn't even make anything from that jumbled list and just proved how ridiculously out of touch that she was. On top of that, who is supposed to be impressed that you could "feed your whole family for less than twenty bucks"? You can order chinese for the family for that much and not spend any money on gas. The whole thing was just ludicrous. Just an attempt to make it seem like those news organizations are looking out for the little guy. Worse than useless.

[nadine_mn]

48. Once again OMC you have misunderstood me

But then I am used to it


I do not feel sorry for myself... never have never will.

[Naturyl]

89. This dismissive response brought to you by somebody...

Who has been praised in certain "unmentionable" conservative communities as "one of the few sensible voices on DU."

I guess we just got a clue why they might think so, eh?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

119. Your Ad Hominem Attack Was Worthless. My Point Stands.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

126. His ad hominem attack (yeah it was one)

made a DAMN LOT of sense.

Can't fault you for lack of consistency, I'll give you that.

[Naturyl]

138. Yep, it sure was ad hom.

I note you didn't deny they praised you over at a place which cannot be mentioned. Gee, why would they do that?

"Ye shall know them by their fruits" is ad hom, too. Didn't stop a certain commie hippie from saying it.

[Vinca]

39. Good post. I was patting myself on the back for buying $1.89 pasta

for 89 cents cheaper at the dollar store, then I saw a guy walking out of the local food kitchen with a couple of packaged meals and a box of cereal for breakfast. If you can afford to enter a grocery store without food stamps, you're better off than a whole lot of people. You might be hurting and changing your habits, but there most likely isn't a night when there will be nothing to put on the table. The cutesy news items are insulting. (On the other hand, I caught Suze Orman on some show explaining how anyone can still invest and save money in this economy. Earth to Suze. Stop with the comedy.)

[beam me up scottie]

45. Good Samaritan requires either an electric or water bill in your name before they will help you.

So my neighbors, whose utilities are paid by their landlord, went hungry last month. They didn't tell us until it was too late to help them.
And they won't accept our help so I'm going to take the advice of another DUer and figure out a way to "unload" all of my fresh produce before it spoils.

[Daemonaquila]

201. Oh jeebus - don't get me started!

We have a couple of public and private agencies like this in town. I've got a guy dying of cancer right now, and they're hassling him for the charity care medical program because he provided a half dozen bills showing he really lives at that address (including the hospital's), but they were all the "wrong ones." Electrical? Nope, paid by the landlord. Gas? Nope, we're in the South and they don't have any gas appliances for heating/cooking/water etc. Water? Same as electrical. Phone? Not any time recently. Cable? Ha ha - nice wish! It has gotten to the point that when I take clients on I talk to them about "guerrilla tactics" for making sure they can show the "right kind" of bill, how to advocate for themselves at the charity clinics so they get something more than being shoved in a bloody corner and told to take their ineffective meds and stop bothering the nice PAs, etc. What makes these asshats think that someone who's back and forth between friends' couches, the park bench, and the homeless shelter would ever be able to prove residence with one of those few types of bills?

Oh never mind - that's the whole point, I guess. Silly me, for thinking that a charity care program was set up to help the people who really need it most.

[beam me up scottie]

241. That totally sucks. I had no idea that this was such a common problem.

This is why so many people are falling through the cracks. This is why a homeless couple was sleeping in our ratty old shed. This is why an old man sorts through our garbage every week (and why we now "accidentally" throw out canned goods).

We have no homeless shelters, no soup kitchens and no free clinics.

It's like a dirty little secret no one wants to talk about.

[bobbolink]

49. "trivializing what it is like to really struggle."

Exactly, and thank you.

It's what I keep saying about "progressives", too, but I've given up trying to raise the level of consciousness.

We're just supposed to suffer in silence.

:P

[Odin2005]

57. Hear Hear!!!

*Odin gives Bobbolink a hug* :hug:

I can sometimes get annoyed by self described "progressives" that are of the so called "upper-middle" class that seem to pity us low income folks more then anything. I am a leftist because I have experienced living in a low-income household and grew up among plenty of truly poor people in an economically depressed rural community.

[bobbolink]

154. Greatfully accepted!

Somehow, I almost didn't see that wonderful hug!

this is one of those days when said hugs are badly needed, so one backatcha! :hug:

Oh, and apropos of absolutely nothing.... a long time ago, I had a dog named Odin. :hi:

Thanks!! Your kind words are very appreciated!

[pengillian101]

179. nadine_mn

pingee

[bobbolink]

282. ?????????????????

[pengillian101]

300. No wonder you sent me ?????

I mis-posted. :hug:

[Snarkturian Clone]

54. I hear ya on this. That is why I hate the nutrition snob threads

around here where DUers who are obviously pretty wealthy (I consider any person who shops at Whole Foods either wealthy or a bad at spending money) rail on and on about buying all kinds of foods that are literally 3-6 times the price just because they MIGHT be "organic" or "whole" or "free-trade" or whatever buzz word was used to fool them into thinking that they are somehow better than others because of their diets.

[nadine_mn]

55. And "the how dare you work for Wal-Mart threads"

That people should chose not to work and eat rather than work for the evil-doer Wal-Mart.

I hate Wal-Mart and quit shopping there years ago, but for many people its a job which is better than nothing. Infact, sad to say, it's one of the few employers who hire seniors... seniors who have been scammed out of their money by greedy kids, fake investment scams, or just the rising cost of living. Seniors who expected to retire and are suddenly having to look for work and the only place that will hire them is Wal-Mart...

[Snarkturian Clone]

58. Remember this one?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3803117

No concern for the poor employees that would suffer for their stupid actions. Anyone who disagreed was considered "soooooooo blocked".

[nadine_mn]

62. That's the one I had in mind

And in our area many of the cashiers are refugees (we have a high Somali population), or have english as a second language so any self-righteous rant would not be understood (unless you spoke it in their native tongue).

[Hannah Bell]

95. it's quite possible to empathize with the employees...

while understanding that wal-mart is part of the problem, & needs to be held to a higher standard.


when i volunteered with the homeless shelter, people would come around offering day labor jobs. the requirement was that the folks with jobs pay at least minimum wage.

most people did, but there were always the jerks who wanted to pay, e.g., $2/hr for clearing brush.

[bobbolink]

67. THANK YOU!!!!

:applause:

[Odin2005]

59. I've never even HEARD of Whole Foods until I joined DU.

When I was growing up in the 90s driving into Fargo-Moorhead to shop at Wal-Mart and the "big box" grocery store every other weekend was part of life. Stretching that paycheck as far as possible was what counted.

[Snarkturian Clone]

61. Whole Foods should change their motto to:

"You don't have to look at poor people!"

[Odin2005]

63. And rename themselves "Whole Paycheck" n/t.

[bobbolink]

69. yeah, well, whaddya young whipper-snappers know....

:rofl:

:pals:

[bobbolink]

66. FINALLY... someone who's singing my song....

SHhhhh! don't you DARE mutter that dirty word....


The "E" word....

SHHHHHH!!!!!

[Snarkturian Clone]

72. oh I know.... I've been shouted down for implying

that Whole Foods shoppers only go there as a status symbol. In one thread, 10 Duers attacked me over it, claiming to be dirt poor but somehow able to shop there.

[bobbolink]

74. Betcha I can outsnark ya.... ^_^

Really, it's for just that reason that I've come to the conclusion that the ONLY thing that will save this country's soul is a HUGE crash... affecting ALL.

It'll take that for the elitists to come down off their high.

:cry:

:pals:

[Naturyl]

91. LOL, no poor person can shop there...

Anyone claiming to shop at such place despite financial hardship is either very talented or confused as to what actual financial hardship is.

[Odin2005]

120. I agree, it's a status thing.

It's all about so-called "upper-middle" class "progressives" trying to "out-progressive" the other. These types of "progressives" is the reason the Pukes' BS about "Elitist Liberal Democrats" works. Show these "progressives" a story on the anti-choice nuts they start shooting steam out of thier ears, show them a story on the poor you get little real outrage, just pity.

[Withywindle]

231. You know what's funny about Whole Foods...

...at least one of the ones in Chicago (the oldest, flagship one) is TOTALLY riddled with rats. Or so say people I know who shop there and some who work there. Trottin' up and down the aisles, bold as love.

Whole Foods: twice the price, now with even more rats!

or

Whole Foods: Fewer rats if you dumpster-dive.

[nadine_mn]

234. They are "free-range rats"

thank you very much... cruelty and pesticide free... since we can't afford to buy the free range beef... we can catch our own rats and still get our protein

[Withywindle]

235. Probly not chemical free

there is a poisoning program in Chi-town...but some of the rats are tough enough to survive. Definitely not "certified organic." Though I wouldn't put it past Whole Paycheck to try, if eating rats ever became trendy.

[Hannah Bell]

68. i agree. it's sad to see organic becoming just an expensive

status symbol for the upper-middle classes. & the folks obsessed with this kind of stuff can't see the forest for the trees.

[Snarkturian Clone]

73. My sister-in-law is like that.

She goes on and on about how she's saving the world by driving her two giant SUV's to Whole Foods every day. From her 4,000 sq ft house.

[Hannah Bell]

90. yes, i've noticed that too - forest for the trees - focus on the type of

consumption v. the amount of consumption.

like gore with his 25,000 sq ft house & his "carbon offsets" - lol.


& then the idiots like sheryl crow who tell the rabble to use one square of toilet paper.

[bobbolink]

110. Is she willing to smell their fingers afterwards?

ewwww, that was really bad.

I'll apologize for that one... but DAMN!!!

[Marrah_G]

249. OMG!

:spank:

bad bad bobbo!

[snappyturtle]

273. Your reply made me laugh out loud! Thanks. n/t

[bobbolink]

276. Yeah, my bad.

But ya gotta admit....

:rofl:

[Odin2005]

127. The whole carbon offsets thing is nothing but feel-good BS for those snob-type "progressives"

We need carbon taxes, regulation, and government investment in carbon-free energy, not feel-good BS designed to look good the the so-called "upper-middle" class "progressives."

[Naturyl]

149. They get rich and/or famous and they get a "god" complex.

They will beneficently instruct the little people on how to save the world while living in a manner appropriate to their own elevated station in life. How big of them, eh?

And whoever said it's shit like that which gives plausibility to RW talking points hit the nail on the head. We could very well do without the "efforts" of such "progressives."

[Hannah Bell]

208. yes, i think it's the reason some conservatives despise the democrats

en masse. they get that they're being condescended to by snobs & status freaks.

[Naturyl]

213. Yep. Sometimes celebrities and the "beautiful people"...

Need to know when to STFU and enjoy the champagne and swimming pools. For example, whenever they feel compelled to give "save the world" advice to average people, it might be a very good time to consider that course of action. Even when well-intentioned, the "help" rarely helps us. Instead, it fuels Limbaugh and Hannity tirades - and occasionally those blowhards aren't entirely wrong to point it out.

Did I go too far? Could mean-spirited, opportunistic hacks like Limbaugh and Hannity ever have a valid point? One wouldn't think so - but some of these upper-class granola-bar "progressives" are doing their best to make it so. Failing to recognize this won't help us - and in fact has already hurt us plenty.

[Odin2005]

124. Your sis-in-law is EXACTLY one of the kind of people I'm talking about. n/t.

[truedelphi]

181. And when she sees me drinking my one Latte of the month from a styrofoam cup

I bet she would sneer.

Never mind that she will be remodeling her entire house later this year - according to some "Green Designer's" notion of Green.

[tavalon]

250. Just as an aside, there is a third reason one might shop at Whole Foods

I use to believe that it was impossible to shop gluten free at a regular store. I've recently come to understand that if I cook everything from scratch, the regular store isn't as much of an impediment. But I can't get rice pasta anywhere but at one of those stores. There are a few other things that the same thing applies. So if you happen to see me coming out of Whole Foods (or Whole Paycheck as we wryly call it) please don't roll your eyes at me.

[annabanana]

60. Those stupid, chirpy stories always have the same "tips & hints" .

Buy store brands, buy larger quantities, clip coupons, invest in a big freezer (this is always one of my favorites, given utility bills)

infuriating

[nadine_mn]

64. Remember.. buy in bulk at Sam's club

forget you have to pay a membership, forget you have to find a place to put it, forget you have to lug your case of pickles home.

Forget that foodstamp allowances have not been matching the rising cost of inflation, everyone is getting rich off of welfare.

:sarcasm:

[annabanana]

65. Why is it so hard for some

to walk a little in other's mocassins? I am astoundingly fortunate. I have not always been and I remember.

[truedelphi]

180. Don't forget - it's fun and easy to clip those coupons while watching

The Olympics on a big screen TV!!

I really cannot abide those reports on their sanitized Disney version of poverty!

[Withywindle]

232. "larger quantities"

That's the one that gets me.

Excuse me - I live in an efficiency apartment. Exactly where am I supposed to put those 48 rolls of toilet paper and 98 pounds of chicken? And I live alone - exactly who is supposed to eat that whole bushel of apples before they go bad?

And I have no car - exactly how am I supposed to shlep those 10 gallons of milk on the bus and then six blocks home?

[Aviation Pro]

77. In the era of Survivor and other stupid reality TV shows....

...this is all about ratings. I've got an idea for the morons who brought us all these asinine reality programs, drop your models/contestants in the middle of any poverty-stricken area in the U.S. and see if they can cute their way out of there.

[nadine_mn]

78. Oh that would be awesome

I would seriously watch that...

I think if the human interest stories showed how people really live it would do more to wake others up. Right now the message is "aww look at that cute outfit she bought, poverty isn't so bad... you still can go shopping"

[Naturyl]

93. "Models/contestants"

I'm glad you used that terminology because I've thought that's what they are for a long time. We're supposed to believe that the contestants on these shows represent a "real" cross-section of "real" American society? Ha! Do these Hollywood producers have a bridge to sell me, too?

As I like to say, "reality shows are for people who enjoy fantasy."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

218. Judging from what I see at my church's dinners for the poor,

a lot of former middle class people are falling into poverty.

Unlike the long-term poor and street people who came to the dinners when I first started volunteering there, we're seeing more "nouveau poor,"people who have obviously seen better days.

Some former smug rich folks may be learning some very difficult lessons in the near future.

[NM Independent]

80. Get out of my head!!!

I, too, am sick and tired of being sick and tired of every damn thing including these exact "challenge" people you're talking about.

[Odin2005]

130. Ditto x 100. n/t.

[midnight]

81. Poverty is a sin caused by greeding people who want more,

and will do it at the expense of others. I would love to see the christians get more upset with poverty than they do with sex.

[Hannah Bell]

94. once we see that the framework we're conditioned to view the world through

is an illusion, that it's quite possible for everyone on the planet to have food, shelter, meaningful & tolerable work, & status as a valued part of their community -

things as they are & people's acceptance of slavery & scapegoating is hard to bear.

But people don't see it - until they see it.

[Two Americas]

102. nothing screams "call child protection" then picking your kids up from school on your ten-speed.

Poverty is caused by pressure to conform and being ostracized if you don't, as much as it works the other way around.

Conform to what? Bring your life into conformity - in thought, word, and deed - with the idea that winning is the most important thing, that this is determined by material success, and that winning is measured by how far above those who are suffering you are. One must see one's own relative level of material success as being the product of their own intelligence, hard work, and superior moral character. Then, all who are not successful can be blamed for their own misery.

That is the reason that the political Left - such as it is in this country - cannot present a united front to fight poverty. While we say we are "against" poverty, we most definitely cannot reach consensus about the true cause of poverty because we are too in love with our own success and refuse to challenge the ethic underlying success in modern America. Rather than saying that poor people are lazy and deserve what they get - although we do have some who say that - we might say "we are working on it" or pat ourselves on the back for charitable activities or we have "compassion" for the victims as expressed by various ideas and programs to force them to conform. We might see them as poor helpless victims of mental illness or substance abuse. That way we can reconcile a fundamentally cold-hearted attitude while maintaining an illusion about ourselves as good people.

If we had robbers operating in the neighborhood, would we try to teach the people whose houses were robbed how to be good crooks themselves? Would we blame them for being robbed? Would we tell them that thievery is "human nature," and nothing can be done? That is what we are doing with poor people.

[Odin2005]

134. I couldn't agree more.

In our sick, consumerist society refusing to play the BS game of "Keeping up with the Joneses" gets you ostracized.

Many stores ban you from diving into their dumpsters to find stuff they threw out you can use. Why? because thrift anti-consumerist and thus "bad-for-business." Our society is built on conspicuous consumption and waste.

[Two Americas]

155. incidental maybe

Conspicuous consumption and waste are features of modern American life, but I think they are incidental.

The notion that if the people were different, or better, or more like us, that things would improve is a dangerous one, I think. Improve the system and you will see people improve. Continue to blame the people, and say that if only they were better things would be better is leading to worse and worse conditions.

Leave the business of improving people to religion. In politics, we should seek to improve conditions. With better conditions, you will see people magically get better all on their own.

Most people do not choose to be self-serving, greedy and wasteful. They are forced to be that way, forced to be competitive, forced to look out for themselves, lest they fall off the edge. It is the system that is the problem (I hesitate to use the word system, because that makes it seem like some impossible task, or that I am promoting some ideology or trying to convert people to something) not people.

I also think these "addicted to oil" ideas are dangerous as well. Most people don't particularly want to drive - they have no choice.

What too many upscale liberals don't realize is that the reason that most people are not living the proper lifestyle is because most people don't have the resources the upscale liberals do in order to afford it.

[Hannah Bell]

209. definitely.

"Leave the business of improving people to religion. In politics, we should seek to improve conditions. With better conditions, you will see people magically get better all on their own."

but so often du'ers seemed obsessed with correcting people: fat people, smokers, poor people, religious people - they don't "act right".

hard to believe it's "democratic" underground sometimes.

[Daemonaquila]

205. And staff get fired for trying to do the right thing.

My friend's mom lost her job at a grocery store bakery because on Thanksgiving, they baked hideous gobloads more rolls than the customers could buy, and they were instructed to throw away probably 200 bags of fresh bread when the store closed in the afternoon. She couldn't stand it, and snuck most of it into her car to take to local shelters. So much for her job, when a cashier ratted her out the next morning. How dare she feed some people with food that should've been sold. If people with money won't buy it, nobody can have it!

Which brings me to defend Whole Foods. I've fed a LOT of people by asking for donated food from them. So far, I've never been turned down by their staff, and they've given generously - as in enough to feed 50-100 folks. Yes, they're a place where mostly rich people shop, but they've done the right thing when a lot of other places wouldn't give you the time of day.

[midnight]

112. Your to kind. They see it, and have huge parties that the call-balls.

They raise money for the poor so that they can feel pious. And then they hand it out drop by drop. They have there names written up and they get talked about, and blah, blah, blah...... Yep, it is a sin!

[Hannah Bell]

211. i'm not thinking of the "rich folks" so much as the middle class & lower,

who are brought into this situation & educated to accept its assumptions.

i know i did until i was in my 40's - i wanted to help the underprivileged, etc. i accepted that "those people" didn't quite get it, like "us" (the middle-class strivers), & was quite condesceneding & stupid (albeit unknowingly).

i also accepted (though i wouldn't have admitted it) that one's success in climbing the ladder was some kind of measure of worth & talent, that there was some justice & benefit to society in glorifying the "exceptional" & allowing the "non-exceptional" to lead lesser lives; that one must "work" & have a "job" or one was a bum, "leeching" off society, that tax money was "our money" so of course if people got "welfare" they should "follow the rules"...

oooh. i sicken myself, & repent in dust & ashes.

it's so sad & cruel how we treat each other. but i couldn't see it, because i could only see through the frame i'd been raised to see through. my frame is different now, & has different categories altogether.

[Naturyl]

227. Wow. You saw the light, and VERY few ever really do.

Congratulations, although you are now one of the few who knows that "congratulating" someone for knowing what you now know is deeply ironic, considering the psychological struggles required to be where you are.

Nobody ever promised understanding would be easy. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set ye free" - but it's gonna hurt like hell. Kudos for doing the hard inner work I know you must have done to reach the place you've reached. Very few will ever stand where you're standing now.

Here's to courage - the courage to face the potentially life-destroying possibility that almost everything you've been led to believe is a lie and Orwell is at the helm of this world, calling evil good and good, evil.

[Two Americas]

228. very honest and courageous

Your post here about the transition in your thinking is very inspiring. Thank you for that.

[Hannah Bell]

230. well,not really courageous; if you start to see it, you can't NOT see it.

but rather damaging to me, because i no longer function well in most environments.

[Naturyl]

243. Yep, could have guessed that.

And of course I mean no offense at all - quite the opposite. I'm confident you understand what I mean.

One can spot those who have outgrown this world. The usual toys and games don't have the appeal they once did because one has matured beyond their level. It isn't so much that such a person "cannot" function as it is they just can't bring themselves to bother. There are much more important things to do - such as nothing in particular.

Clinically, it would most likely be diagnosed as depression or something similar. And in some senses, it is just that. There's nothing wrong with getting oneself a diagnosis and maybe even a monthly check. But there is also an element that is different and present only in these cases. It's difficult (if not impossible) to describe precisely, but one knows it when they see it.

Just curious - have you ever read Taoism?

[MedleyMisty]

248. Thanks, I needed that.

Because I tend to assume that it's a frame that people willingly and knowingly choose.

I know that people don't choose their economic situation, but I do tend to think that they choose their mental attitudes and that therefore people with the frame that you used to have choose to think that way.

I guess it's sort of the mirror to social Darwinism - maybe I should call it psychological Darwinism, because I do tend to feel the same hatred and disgust toward morally weak and easily influenced people that they feel for poor people.

And I think for the same reasons - I was born into mental and emotional wealth, so I have a lot of work to do to understand and find compassion for those born into mental and emotional poverty. And maybe it's hard for people born into material wealth to understand material poverty.

But it's just....you look around and you see the results of their frames and their conditioning and it's just really really hard to find compassion for someone who's perfectly okay with people suffering and dying just because they were born into poverty.

[tavalon]

253. But really, I think most people have less choice than you might think

I'm really not sure what makes some question what they were brought up to believe when most don't. I wish I did know, though I know how much work is involved in deconstructing the frames.

[Odin2005]

131. Exactly. n/t.

[yellerpup]

105. That is an excellent point.

Morality is not ONLY about sex. Love your neighbor, feed the hungry, help the needy, tell the truth. (partial list only)

To the OP, K&R! Well said and very touching in an (good, inspiring) infuriating way.

[Odin2005]

137. Yep. Morality is about doing what is right for your fellow man. n/t.

[yellerpup]

171. We have to try.

Maybe together, YES WE CAN!

[Naturyl]

86. Amen... thanks for this post.

If these upper-class "sympathizers" want a little bit tougher challenge, they can take mine - try a LIFETIME of it. I wonder how they would have done on less than $8k a year for the last 8 years and not much more before that. Can we say "community mental health center?" I give them 6 months before their first appointment.

So, any takers?

<crickets>

Oh, and by the way, mac + cheese without milk isn't as bad as it might sound. Get the 79 cent tub of store-brand margarine and use a bit more than normal. Some black pepper and a little extra salt will make the resulting sticky mess relatively edible.

[Two Americas]

88. recommended

Excellent post - best here in a long time. Thank you.

[sendero]

96. Adventure or not..

.. here it comes.

[Dukkha]

97. I can't stand those stupid condescending reports

how they act all chirpy while making up insulting shit like "Staycation" you can stay and home and make a resort out of sofa cushions and bed sheets! while they have that vapid small talk between each other on how "quaint" their ideas are. I love being lectured by rich privileged folks on how it's my fault the economy is so bad.

oh, and NO ONE carries a "pocketbook" anymore, let alone cash, so take it out of your reporting lexicon already!

[musette_sf]

121. "pocketbook" means "purse"

in the Northeast and is in everyday usage. otherwise all agreed on your post.

[killbotfactory]

98. Good post.

I see a couple of the usual "they have a tv/microwave/xbox/cable/cell phone, how dare they!" responses. As if inexpensive entertainment or a cheap cell is some luxury only non-poor people have a right to enjoy. We all know, of course, that if you aren't living off beans rice and ramen, and getting all your entertainment from a library you deserve to be homeless. Nevermind living like that is no guarantee you won't get hit with a medical bill you can't afford, or have some other financial crisis.

Food, shelter, education, and healthcare should be rights that can't be taken from us no matter what kind of financial bind you find yourself in. Not privlidges that can be taken away on the whim of an employer or state. It's a crime that they aren't.

[maryf]

108. K&R

Fantastic thread, thanks! :applause:

[ladym55]

100. And it's insulting to portray it that way

I'm one of the lucky ones who has had to be careful with money, but I've never known poverty. However, I want to jump through the screen of the TV and dropkick the perky reporter who shares (wide-eyed) just how EASY it is to save money in these "tough times." The worst for me was the local news "health" reporter chirping on about using generic drugs when YOU DIDN'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE AND WHAT A BIG DIFFERENCE THAT WOULD MAKE.

It sends the horrible message that somehow if you were just a LITTLE smarter with your money, you'd be just FINE. This is AMERICA, you know. And putting forth these myths of self-reliance keeps the just above poverty people voting against their own best interests. "See, if I pay more taxes, I'll just support the life-style of a bunch of lazy bums."

I remember a blue-collar white male student taking me on in class that homelessness was a CHOICE. Nothing I could say would move him, and what was even more scary is that all his blue-collar classmates agreed with him.

[Odin2005]

140. It's all about protecting the "if you are poor it is your fault" BS.

That Corporatist lie the main thing propping up the capitalist system.

[Naturyl]

170. Yep, bingo, you win tonight's prize.

Nothing more needs to be said, but since I'm a windbag, I'd add that it's not only the main thing, it's pretty much the ONLY thing.

Take down that lie and the whole jig is up. That is why it is such a sacrosanct idea.

[tavalon]

254. You are so right!

I think a small part of the reason I like living communally is I love subverting the dominant paradigm. I have always doubted capitalism and have come to loath it. To walk into my home is to know the protection of the credo, "From each according to their capabilities, to each according to their needs".

[strategery blunder]

221. I hate condescending "health" reporters too.

Not too long ago, my doc prescribed me generic tussionex. (This for a cough that wouldn't go away for three weeks.) Cost without insurance? $56. Thankfully I had insurance, but hello? Clue train?

THAT IS AN ENTIRE FUCKING DAY'S WAGES TO A MINIMUM-WAGE WORKER.

For a fucking bottle of prescription cough medicine. Generic, mind you.

Never mind that an actual visit to a doctor costs at least two days of such wages, if not three.

And the fact that if you just happen to work in, say, food service, you are missing work too, unpaid, because you are sick. Let's just say four days of missed wages there.

Ooops. I guess that means that I'll have to starve for the next two and a half weeks so I can make the next month's rent. And this just for a cold, not a "catastrophic" health expense. Starving is really good for my health, ain't it?

Or a person in this situation could just forego medical treatment, go to work anyway and try to disguise his illness, and serve food while sick, sickening customers in the process.

:grr:

[Raksha]

101. It's obvious from your post that you've really been there.

So have I...and I still am. Any satisfaction you might get from your creativity at saving money is more than outweighed by the chronic insecurity of living from hand to mouth ALL the time. Minor household breakdowns that would merely inconvenience and annoy someone with real resources become catastrophic disasters when you don't have the funds to deal with them.

[sendero]

104. Around 1980, a great band...

.. that called themselves Gang of Four released an album called "Entertainment!"

One of the songs, entitled 5:45, is about how f*cked up television is. It goes...

How can I sit and eat my tea,
with all that blood flowing from the television.
At a quarter to six,
I watch the news,
Eating, eating all my food
As I sit watching the red spot
In the egg which looks like
All the blood you don't see on the television.

Still body now, no movement yet
Five men lie die flat on their backs
Were they born to lie in state
Defend the ever stagnate great?

Down on the street assassinate
All of them look so desperate
Declared blood war on the bourgeois state

Watch new blood on the 18 inch screen
The corpse is a new personality
Ionic charge gives immortality
The corpse is a new personality

Down on the street assassinate
All of them look so desperate
Declared blood war on the bourgeois state


Watch new blood on the 18 inch screen
The corpse is a new personality
Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment
Guerilla war struggle is a new entertainment
....


What the OP is talking about is pretty much the same thing. Poverty as entertainment. These simpering talking heads trying to act like they have the slightest idea what it is like to be poor, or the slightest bit of useful information to impart.

Television in the USA sucks to a degree that is completely beyond my ability to express.

[tabasco]

106. I LMAO at the money-savings tips that come out on a regular basis

that say "consider store brands."

Like, no shit Sherlock. As if people on low incomes have been buying more expensive shit for years and somebody gives them a bright idea to buy cheaper stuff.

[Hannah Bell]

111. yeah, they're mostly insulting. it's hard to believe these people get paid

the big bucks for this crap. my aunt has better money-saving tips.

[Joe Chi Minh]

107. Wow! What a post. You write so well, too, I can't imagine employers aren't beating

a path to your door, like the proverbial, superior mouse-trap. Like the Frenchie type name, Nadine, too.

You and your hubby should try to emigrate to Oz, NZ, France, Germany, Belgium Holland, or a Scandinavian country. Definitely not the UK, which has been in the hands of right-wing psychos for far too long.

Well that's a crazy thing to suggest in your current economic circumstances, unless you and your husband could get a job on the same ship and jump ship, together. Poms (Brist) used to do it regularly in Oz, particularly crew. They might even have a scheme to get you out there, if you have a particular job skill they need. Well perhaps, it's all pie-in-the-sky, now, but I don't like the sound of the way thing are going there with precious little in the way of a safety net. Bad as it sounds now. How about Canada? Is that remotely feasible? Well, they're maybe things to think about. Best wishes to you and yours anyway.

[trthnd4jstc]

109. Poverty is difficulty. I am struggling, and I am just barely making my bills.

I know with my working 60 to 80 hours a week with my own business, that I have it better than most and it is a struggle. I am very sorry life is so difficult for so many. This world that we are living in was designed by the ultra-rich to make us poorer. This economy was designed. The ones with the power meant to de-unionize, and off shore jobs. They are the traitors, and they laugh at our misery. They should be imprisoned for Treason, just like Bush and Cheney. Traitors.

[Willo]

115. Very good rant.

This morning, CNN, spoke about cancer prevention few use. Gupta was saying that by changing eating habits, people could curb or prevent some types of cancer. http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2008/08/20/am.gupta.cancer.weight.cnn

What people know:

83% know diet can lower risk
62% know exercise can lower risk
66% try a balanced diet
10% try exercise

Many don't act on this information because they say:

1) veggies to expensive 51%

2) health clubs to expensive 60%

3) veggies spoil to quickly 55%

4) no time to exercise 46%

Also, they were asked if they had an extra hour in a day many would not use it to exercise.

What I find interesting is that people are disconnecting abilities and mindsets. An earlier poster mentioned handyman and financial skills. I would also add patience, a strong sense of self-worth, creativity, physical strength, moral support and mental strength.

A man woke up one morning, sat up in bed, looked around, thought for a moment and said "Damn..still broke"
This was a skit in a movie or by a comedian. The longer you've lived it, the funnier that line will be because the sentiment is very common and familiar.

You are so right, poverty is no adventure. Nor is it a picnic. $20 for one meal...yeah okay. That's wallet tightening not poverty.

[bobbolink]

116. Since we agree it's not an "adventure"... here are some ideas to contemplate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3817932

Serious thinking, here.

:applause:

[McCamy Taylor]

118. Those articles are not really "feel good". They are supposed to scare people to death

and make them cling to their jobs and say "yessir, boss, whatever you say, boss" and kiss their employer's ass in gratitude that their job has not been outsourced to China yet.

As for canned potatoes, the potato is one of the few foods that they have not managed to price out of the reach of the world's truly needy. Not yet anyway. Give them time. They will figure out a way to use potatoes for energy or they will engineer a disease that wipes it out---and then food really will be too expensive for the third world.

My own theory about the summer tomato scare is that they knew all along that it was the peppers but they did it, because it was about time for tomatoes to take a seasonal dive in price, and they wanted to keep up the price of the hothouse kind. The makers of greenhouse tomatoes made out like bandits this summer, thanks to the "ineptness" of the Bush administration.

[musette_sf]

123. i think the summer tomato scare

was also about the bee die-offs. i've had great tomatoes from my yard for years. this year, not so great. others in my area report the same problem. better to make up some BS story, than to have to address the bee die-off problem.

[Lars39]

136. It's also easier to focus on tuna casserole recipes than to actually

educate people as to how we got in this mess to begin with. :(

[happygoluckytoyou]

125. CLASS WARFARE.... time to REDISTRIBUTE THE WEALTH back to the people!!!

tax the shit out of the wealthy and bring back the middle class

--------------so who the hell is voting for the RICH WHITE GUY WITH 10 HOUSES

[Naturyl]

150. That would be the wannabe rich with 1 or 2 houses

Who are hoping to someday join McCain's obscene class.

After all, it's the American Dream, right?

[leagel_leagel]

128. wonderfully stated

I'm a public defender, and the entirety of my professional life is spent working with and for our neighbors living in poverty. You are absolutely right; poverty is NOT an adventure.
Yesterday, I represented a 21 year old single mother. She has two young children. She also has a job, and on last Thursday, her employer (who shall remain nameless, but whose initials are BK-home of the whopper) told her that she had to come in for an additional shift or, she could just look for another job. It mattered not one iota to this employer that she was scheduled to work later that evening, and had made the only child care arrangements available to her (her also employed mother was going to sit with the kids after her shift). She was told "come in or you can look for another job. Already living at the brink of eviction because of increased rent in this area (due to Katrina and Rita), she had no choice but to leave her kids alone during the two hours it would take before her sister could change her schedule to get to them. She made it to work, but of course, was reported by a neighbor; the kids were then taken into custody of the state, and she was arrested for child endangerment and cruelty to a juvenile. Now, she's in jail because she can't afford the bond, she's lost her job and she's also been evicted. The only bright spot was that we were able to get her kids back out of state custody and into the custody of their grandparents.
Being poor isn't an adventure, it's hell.

[Name removed]

141. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[leagel_leagel]

156. Actually, I am...

...and while I've been a long-time visitor to the site, I've only now, in reading this thread, felt like signing up to give it my two cents worth.
And if you still don't buy it, well... I guess I'd have to wonder why you'd think I would make this up.

[blueatheart]

167. I am a female..

but my post count is low so do not believe I am a female as it must be a lie. :sarcasm:

[pengillian101]

169. A real lawyer is NOT posting details

...and while I've been a long-time visitor to the site, I've only now, in reading this thread, felt like signing up to give it my two cents worth.
And if you still don't buy it, well... I guess I'd have to wonder why you'd think I would make this up.

************
A real lawyer is NOT posting details on an internet website board about his cases. We heard enough about it from you in just two posts to know you are phony. Better luck next time.

[leagel_leagel]

191. well gosh, you've caught me....

...I should have known better than to try to fool you.

[readmoreoften]

203. A real DU member does NOT attack newbies. Oh noes! You must've bought your star on the black market.

Why would a lawyer waste time contemplating whether or not people on an internet board are real lawyers? No real lawyer would have that sort of free time! The jig is up. We've all got your number. :crazy:

[pengillian101]

299. "No real lawyer would have that sort of free time!"

Exactly!

[pengillian101]

301. I was a legal secretary for many years.

Professional and real attorneys don't post their clients' information on discussion boards!

Get real!

[pengillian101]

302. "A real DU member does NOT attack newbies."

Well, spread the word, readmoreoften. Folks only count if you post over 1,000 posts!

I sure got my share of positive and negative at DU. I have less than 200 posts, so I don't count, according to REAL DU members like you.

Fuck that!

"A real DU member does NOT attack newbies."

What a crock of shit. If you see crap, expose it as crap.

[truedelphi]

184. It sounded very real to me.

Taking the bus today into town, we pass through acres and acres of orchards and vineyards. pears are being picked, and the pear packing plant has hired a slew of people.

The bus goes through every day at around 12:20, not stopping. At that time (each of the four times I've made the trip) there is a woman breast feeding her baby (or cuddling?)

At first I was thinking she was someone who shows up to eat lunch with a working husband. But lately I have been haunted by the notion that that little one is in the car with the windows down while mom is inside working.

And it can be 110 degrees in these parts.

[beam me up scottie]

186. Welcome to DU, leagel_leagel.

We're not always this paranoid. :)

[tomg]

239. Welcome to DU. And

beam me up scottie is right. A lot of people around here seem a tad jumpy of late.

[Odin2005]

147. This is a good example of how the system is rigged to prevent people from...

...digging out of holes they get into or as pushed into. Capitalism cannot exist without an Underclass.

[Marrah_G]

251. Welcome to DU

Thank you for your post. Many people do not realize exactly how difficult it is for a single mother to raise her children alone. The young woman in your story was fortunate to have her mother nearby, but even that didn't help in the end.

I m one of the lucky few. I work directly for the owner of my company and he is very liberal and progressive. Anytime I need time off or a different schedule for my kids, it is never a problem. If I did not have this job, I would be seriously screwed.

[Sanctified]

129. I think it's information directed at people who want to conserve.

Not really people who are living in poverty.

[blueatheart]

168. thats my take on it also

though I can see how some may be insulted by it. Honestly, many people who live in poverty cannot afford the internet or cable tv so they probably are not watching/reading these helpful hints anyways.

[ThatsMyBarack]

133. Wump!

:kick:

[Zuiderelle]

139. Great post, nadine. And I'm so sorry for some of the awful responses here.

They need to be completely ignored. You said nothing wrong, you expressed yourself perfectly. Sometimes, there are just people who need to be contrary and/or defensive and/or better or more knowledgeable than others.

I truly am appalled by a few of the responses in this thread.

Recommended.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. I tell you, some people have a pathologic need to be part of the Herrenvolk.

It's a disease. It kills.

[Naturyl]

152. Fur volk, vaterlund, and Fuhrer!

But mostly for Deutschmark!

In God we trust, ALL OTHERS PAY CASH.

[pitohui]

145. life itself is an adventure

yeah, the articles you cite are pretty silly-ass but i noticed in my personal life that if i took the sport of frugality as a sport and a challenge -- dare i say it, an adventure! -- then i was much happier than when i took it as an opportunity to be bitter about the fact that i couldn't buy both food and medical care (a fact of life for me for 15 years)

you either have a sense of humor about the way the cards are stacked against you or you go around bitter and angry all the time, you do it the way you like, but for me, i don't see any advantage to the ruling class having stolen my access to medical care AND they can lord it over me by being happy while i am bitter and angry

if i manage to be happy anyway, i've won, they haven't stolen my mind and my inner self even if they've stolen my health and my chance of long life

i can never be here on this earth as long as the rich person w. health insurance and all the goodies -- but i can be happy while i am here and have an attitude of adventure and "let's see what happens next" and enjoy what i have while i do have it

that isn't nothing

if your life is shorter than average, if your health is less than average, you win NOTHING by being sour and angry all the time about what you've been cheated of

[The Backlash Cometh]

160. Nice wake up call.

Good for you.

[asdjrocky]

165. Wonderful piece. Really, really good work here.

K&R!

[JanMichael]

177. ha ha! Wish you could see this thread from our computer

people are trying to explain poverty to a poster named "ignored."

Thank God.

I watched one of those videos that you posted---jesus christ. "I have never seen canned potatoes." What a joke. She could within months, and doesn't have a clue, eh?

We are lucky. Right now we are "middle class."

One, ONE, medical problem (and I mean a broken bone--and yes, we have "great" insurance" and savings) and we are fucked.

People are fucking stupid, and I am sorry. Right now we are in a position to help, and you can bet your ass we are doing the best we can. That could end in the morning, and we both know it.

[Naturyl]

194. Good for you, and thanks.

I appreciate the reminder that people who are able to "do well" without shoving their heads where the sun don't shine DO exist. There are all too few of you and I salute you.

[Cleita]

182. I hate the budget stuff myself.

It means that you can spend less money so you can spend money on other things according to the budget wizards. It has nothing to do with having $10 or $15 left to eat with after you pay your rent and bills, no matter how thrifty you are.

[madmax]

183. Been there

Thanks for posting this.

[Daemonaquila]

187. Thank you for writing this.

I've been really fortunate for several years - a good job, a spouse with a good job, good choices in when to get in/out of the housing market, etc. But it hasn't been that long since I was balancing the last $60 of 4 roommates between bills and groceries for almost a month. Between my own lean years and my disabled clients, I can't stop seeing red when I see these stories. It's like it's a joke to them, or a "fun" thing like kids camping in a tent in the back yard.

Talking about class is disfavored these days. Thanks to that, this financial elitism is allowed to flourish. Nobody is *really* all that poor. Not anyone who isn't hopelessly lazy or something... Canned potatoes? Ha ha. Dumpster diving? Oh what a ripping sport! Buying and fixing secondhand goods? Oh, how creative!

When I deal with judges who think that it's impossible for a person to go off medication because they can't find some way to afford it, or who think that someone stops seeing a doctor because they're just fine rather than because they have no access, I want to throttle them. How out of touch can a person be? One judge denied a disability claim (and berated a diabetic claimant to her face) because she was eating tortillas and potatoes and beans rather than fresh fish and veggies. When she protested that she only gets a small amount of food stamps, he just scoffed at her. Some days I just want to bang my head on my desk and walk away.

[JNelson6563]

189. Excellent! Well done!

And some of the excellent subsequent posts in this thread too! All too often people who have never been poor are unaware of the less evident challenges the have-nots face.

Julie

[readmoreoften]

199. The antisocialists love their slumming. Poverty is just another "lifestyle choice" to them.

How about this article:

"Cool new ways to thrive as a high school junior while working full-time at McFastBurger to help your parents pay the rent and living without access to a home computer."

"Cool new ways to jump start your career as a twentysomething with 3 courses under your belt in community college because you didn't get to go to a four-year college because you worked full-time in highschool at McFastBurger to help your parents pay rent and didn't have time to 'commit to excellence'."

"Cool new ways to jump start your career as a thirtysomething with an associates degree Cool new way #1: your associates degree is outdated! Take out a loan and go back to school!!!! Invest in yourself!!!!"

And so on...

[Naturyl]

204. Couple of points/questions:

1. What you describe isn't poverty, so what are you actually pointing to? Kids who pretend to be poor for "authenticity" points and the like? Has it got anything to do with real poverty? I think not, but maybe you can explain.

2. Are you suggesting that any significant portion of American poverty consist of what you described? People "faking it," that is?

3. Does "antisocialists" mean people who oppose socialism? If so, and that is the specific group you are talking about, I might be much more inclined to view your post in a different (and more favorable) light.

[readmoreoften]

215. Huh?

1) Yes, "antisocialist" means "in-opposition-to-socialism."

2) Are you saying that having to work at Burger King full-time during high school to help your parents pay rent and not being able to afford the tools you need to make it to college is not indicative of poverty? Is your threshhold of poverty Tanzania-level starvation? If you attend highschool 7-3 and work from 4-midnight at Burger King, how exactly are you supposed to make it to college to get beyond a $5.15 an hour job? How are you supposed to do the homework necessary for the "merit scholarships" that the rich love to mention?

Most kids in my neighborhood have to work full-time in highschool. They know they will never go to college because they can't afford it. Because a highschool education is worth almost nothing, they tend to drop out so they can take on more hours at work to save up for a car, etc. They are no more or less intelligent than any other kids in any neighborhood. They're simply poor and stuck.

3) I'm not suggesting that any portion of American poverty consists of people faking it. You're poor or you're not. It's a fact. Rich people tend to consider poverty a lifestyle choice in order to ease their consciences: "I simply chose to be rich through my "hard work". Poor people wanted an "easy life" where they didn't have to "apply themselves." They also like to "slum" because rich people can't stand the idea that there's something off limits to them: hence, white kids in mansions listening to gangsta rap, 'trustifarians', and idiots writing articles about how you can make a gourmet meal from a dollar store. Poverty isn't "a new lifestyle to explore" when your stock drops. Poverty isn't "an inability to eat gourmet food." Poverty is being stuck.

[Naturyl]

223. Nevermind, I mis-read your post.

I read your post the wrong way. This has been a tough topic and unfortunately I overlooked a few key phrases in your post and therefore read it totally incorrectly. I apologize and I think it's time for me to let this thread be.

Because I am a member of the group being discussed (and in some cases attacked), there is a certain point in these discussions when I tend to become overly defensive and this sort of thing sometimes happens.

[readmoreoften]

305. No Problem...

I'm on the periphery of the group being discussed as well, and the majority of those I know and love and 95% of those I am related to are solidly in "the group being discussed."

Poverty is the big "forgotten" issue for liberal democrats these days (and the "centrist" is often "centrist" precisely because he or she is center right on economic issues.) One of the reasons why poverty is such a "forgotten" issue is because it has no capitalist solution. Poverty in the US isn't some mystical process. It's racism and cut-and-dry economic warfare.

[johnaries]

206. Powdered milk.... uuuuuughhhhh!

Both of my parents were children of the Depression. Yes, the Great One. Both of them had good jobs and we were doing pretty ok, but the lessons of the past for them were ingrained pretty deep. Which is probably a good thing, because after working for a private hospital corporation for more than 20 years she was canned less than a year before her retirement age so they wouldn't have to pay her a pension.

Anyway, they grew their own garden (and made me work the damn thing) and she would also mix half "reconstituted powdered milk" with half real milk saying "you can't taste the difference".

Even mixed with "real milk", it was HORRIBLE! Just thinking about it makes me shiver with disgust!

I am shamed to admit many of my co-workers are still of the opinion that "if you are poor, it's because you are too lazy to work and it's your own fault".

In other words: "I've got mine, and I'm delusional enough to think I might get rich someday, so don't tax the people who got rich by exploiting the rest of us."

FUCK THAT!

[RedLetterRev]

272. I was going to reply to the OP directly, but you've made a really good point

Having been through it and by grace of Serendipity am back just this side of it, I can honest-to-dog tell you that anyone who looks down their nose and says that poverty happens only to the lazy, or the unmotivated, or the careless have never once in their life known real hunger, they've never known the fear of having to sleep without a roof over their head or had to cry themselves to -- well, you can't say sleep, for there is no sleep in those situations -- wondering just how in creation you're supposed to take care of the ones you're supposed to take care of. I've heard those snide remarks and I want to slap the catshit out of each of those spoiled little rightwing rats who've never wanted for a thing in their lives every time they've popped off with it. Let them walk a few weeks in real hunger or real homelessness and I will 100% money-back guarantee that tune will change.

Life hands you the totally unexpected. How you deal with your own situation is one thing. It's almost impossible to keep your own dignity when people who've never had to deal with any of it, who somehow "know it f'ing all", oh-so-full of (useless) advice, ready to hand you a load of (equally useless) "you should"'s or "you should have"'s, who can so easily sneer, and are shredding at what little dignity you've got left. I'd love to see some of those soft, coddled, know-it-alls deal with some of the indignities the rest of us have had to, and then see just how much sneer they have left. That shoe, in boo$hmerikkka, can hit the other foot really fast. Like one or two missed paychecks. Hide'n'watch.

The other thing, the one that I think separates us from the right, is how one deals when that situation happens to someone else. When you realize that sometimes things just happen, conditions align in a perfect cataclysm of "awshit" that land people in poverty, even homelessness and despair, that's when your heart opens and you truly realize that this is a land of plenty and that there is zero excuse for anyone, any one of us doing without or with less. Then is you perfectly understand what Progressives are all about and just how truly hideous and impoverished-of-the-soul the right really are.

As for total poverty, been there, done that. I was raised in Appalachia, poorest of the poor. By lucky happenstance and serendipity, I made it out of the hills. Later in life, by doing a good deed for someone who should better had been left by a curbside, I and my family were put back into poverty and were homelessness. Nothing like a total wake-up call. Once again, good luck and serendipity came to our rescue. But we realize that not everyone -- hell, the very, very rare few are as fortunate as we are.

The OP is absolutely correct. The charity industry is unconcerned with solutions. It is hardly concerned with assistance. It cares not a whit for the dignity of the people it should be helping. Public assistance? Rotsa ruck. If you've got time, transportation, and advocacy to jump all the hoops and the millions of barriers they put in your way, you might get enough assistance to starve your ass to death.

It's not a whole lot of fun on the other side of the charity lines, either. My partner and I have volunteered for years at various places, because it was our friends and neighbors who depended on a lot of the small private places for subsistances. We were both raised with "if you can, you do... there for the grace of G'd go you". (And for a time there, we went.) A lot of the small places are unable to be much more than sweatshops, because, well, the richfolks sure as hell won't dirty their hands and they don't want to be seen "in that part of town" (what if their Hummer gets stolen? the horrors!) and there's always a shortage of food, hands, feet... little wonder volunteers burn out. There's no shortage of need, ever; that's a sad commentary on American society as a whole because, as I said above, in a land of plenty there is no excuse for it.

Even then, subsistance is not offering solutions. My partner and I have said this many times: the more opportunity increases, the more crime, poverty and despair will decrease. It follows every time. Every time the pugs gain control, opportunity decreases, crime/drugs/despair increase and the only solution the pugs can come up with is to build more prisons.

How f'ing insane is that. Since the pugs have stolen all the cash, land, and opportunity, IMHO they should be in those prisons they're trying to stick everyone else in. Just sayin', if there's a right at all in any of this.

So, yeah, Nadine and John, and everyone else who've added thoughtful posts, I have to agree. Poverty is not the fault of those in it, nor is it some cute little game-show adventure. It's scary, it's hell, it's a prison just as strong as any with walls -- and I firmly believe that it is one by design and not of the design of those having to live in it.

[shireen]

210. excellent OP

please consider submitting it to your local newspaper as a guest columnist. More people need to see this.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

219. Somebody in my building subscribes to Simple Living magazine

But paging through it, the suggestions and advertisements in it remind me of nothing more than Marie Antoinette pretending to be a peasant in her playhouse on the palace grounds.

[Hannah Bell]

220. heh. i hate that phony rag. just another "spend money on this" waste of paper.

i think it would be more interesting to have a mag that would go around & show creative ways ordinary people dress, feed & house themselves.

[nadine_mn]

229. There is some magazine called Budget Living or some crap like that

it costs $6 or $8 and issue... I about pissed myself in line at the grocery store...

Umm if you can pay that much for a magazine, you aren't really the type who needs to budget

[Lydia Leftcoast]

256. I suppose it's for hedge fund managers who have make tough decisions,

who are so impoverished that they realize that they have to sell either the ski lodge in Vail or the winter vacation condo in the Virgin Islands.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

275. A better choice is "the tightwad gazette" or "your money or your life"

Both are available at my local library.

http://www.yourmoneyoryourlife.org/gh-faq.asp
http://www.tightwad.com/

[Beausoir]

279. Precisely.

I got that mag for awhile. It was a freebie.
What a piece of crap.

[AllHereTruth]

222. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

You forgot about day after day eating ramen. You forgot working multiple jobs to make ends meat. You forgot going to the bank begging them to reverse multiple overdraft fees.

Wake up America. For the rest of us, wake the fuck up...please

[tomreedtoon]

226. When did you think TV journalists care about US?

They don't have to be on the payroll of Bush and Company, like Limbaugh and O'Reilly, to be suck-ups. One of the requirements of being a TV reporter is a complete lack of empathy for the people you meet, and the ability to manipulate and squeeze something interesting (true or not) out of them.

To them, poverty isn't even an adventure. It's a cheap hook for a story, between the car crashes, rapes and fires that are their bread and butter.

[Chisox08]

233. K & R

To those who think that poverty is a "life choice" or a "lifestyle", you need to spend a day in the conditions that the truly poor live in. Those people who claim to be roughing it because they have to tighten their belts would not be able to survive in the neighborhood I grew up in. I grew up down the street from the Rockwell Garden Projects on the west side of Chicago. As a kid I remember having to wait in line for over an hour for a box of cereal and a gallon of milk that was being handed out by a local charity agency. I remember not being able to go to my friend's house because he lived in those fore-mentioned projects and they were to dangerous to go into even during daylight hours. I was only allowed to go in there once and I will never go in there again, the stench of the urine soaked hall ways still lingers in my mind today. The drug dealers was the law in the projects because the police feared to enter Rockwell. At a young age I remember seeing brains splattered on the walls because of two drug dealers fighting over who is selling what where.
I am one of the poor but one of the lucky few that was able to make it to college, I'm still struggling through because I can't afford to go full time. I know what it is like to live paycheck to paycheck hoping and praying that nothing goes wrong because their is no way to get the extra money to fix it. I've sat up in Cook County Hospital for hours waiting on a doctor because my family couldn't afford health insurance.
I've had powdered milk and government cheese before.
Growing up we didn't have much but my mother and my grandparents did the best the could with what they had. They made sure that we always had something to eat even if was just a Spam sandwich. They always made sure we got a gift for our Birthdays, Christmases and the good report cards. It might not have always been what we had wanted but it was something.
So if you think that buy the $129 jeans instead of the $425 jeans that you are used to buying and not being able to shop at whole foods like you used to is living in "poverty" walk a mile in my shoes and you will see what poverty really is.

[tavalon]

236. I guess I'm lucky that I don't have cable

I will admit that lately I've been looking for more ways to cut costs and have found quite a few. Living in intentional community really helps out - many hands, you know?

Did these stories actually call poverty an adventure? Learning to be thrifty is an adventure with the right attitude but poverty sucks!

[El Pinko]

244. What an excellent post. Thank you. I've been there too.

Drowning in debt, outrageously high rent on a hovel, struggling to make minimum credit card payments, and 2 kids to feed all on a paltry income.

I'm just barely at a place where I can breathe a bit easier now, but the sad part is that even as badly as I was struggling to make ends meet, I was making well over double the minimum wage. I can't imagine what it must be like for people trying to raise kids on $5 or $6 anf hour or whatever it is now. What a joke!

Thanks for an excellent take on these stories, they annoy me too.

[GreenEyedLefty]

252. I found poverty to be terribly expensive.

It was rather ironic, IMO.

[chill_wind]

257. Powerful piece or writing on an increasingly tragic topic.

Too many of us right here-- or too many we may know and love quite close to us-- are living it.
Thank you for it.

[BEZERKO]

259. In the U.S., I'd guess most of the poor feel shame for being poor.

They're looked down upon, and the work they do is taken for granted. The jobs they tend to work, service type jobs, don't pay them as much as they deserve. The jobs they work don't pay them as much as they should be making, and make the lifestyles of a lot of us, especially the "producers" with second homes in Hawaii, third homes in Arizona, fourth homes in Key West, fifth homes in Montana, and so on, possible.

[bobbolink]

287. STIGMA tends to do that to people. :(

After all, we couldn't possibly let go of our most cherished myth.... that anyone who works hard can "succeed"!

Think what a catastrophy it would be if we were to actually realize that for the LIE (gasp!) it is!

[redqueen]

261. Thank you so much for this post.

Much-needed perspective... I fear the "whistling past the graveyard" phenomenon will keep most from paying too much attention though.

[OHDEM]

264. Bravo nadine!

The article speaks for so many of the "working poor". I have stuggled at times, but thankfully have not had it that tough. Although my best friend since high school lives this way. She's had a hard time finding steady work and in the past few years has dealt with a broken marriage & the illness & loss of her mom. What so many don't seem to understand is that once in this state, it's SO hard to get out! How do you find a good job if you don't have the time to look for it while working your minimum wage job? Or how do you work in an office if you can't afford the required attire? But most of all, how do you sell yourself to an employer when you feel so low?

Rich friends of ours told us recently that life is all about choices. It seems to me that folks who say that have never really had to make the tough choices. And they don't really know what it's like to work without a net!

Paying fair wages & giving a helping hand when people struggle isn't communism, socialism or welfare - it's just HUMAN DECENCY.

[bobbolink]

289. "Rich friends of ours told us recently that life is all about choices."

Yes, the Iraqi people had lots of choices about being invaded!

[Naturyl]

306. "Life is all about choices"

...is the sort of slogan most often spouted by those who have never had to make many that weren't between "good enough" and "even better."

The entire issue of "choice" in this philosophical (but nonetheless trite) sense becomes much more problematic when one finds themselves in a world of shit they know damn well is not of their own making.

As for me, I'm a determinist. "Free will" doesn't mean much in my philosophical framework. It's just a way to pretend that we are fundamentally separate from nature and that the laws of physics don't apply to us.

[OHDEM]

309. Nice to meet you, Naturyl!

I couldn't agree more!

I guess when you're always getting what you want so easily, it seems like you're in total control. It's just a bummer for those of us who, for instance, know exactly how many house we do or do not have!

[Raksha]

311. Yeah, like the choice between paying the electric bill or the water bill?

I could tell your rich friends a few things about "choices"!

Re Rich friends of ours told us recently that life is all about choices. It seems to me that folks who say that have never really had to make the tough choices.

[Blackhatjack]

266. Remember that poverty and distribution of wealth in this country are inextricably linked...

At a stoplight this past week I noticed an elderly woman struggling to walk beside a busy thoroughfare dressed in cold weather clothing carrying lots of bags which undoubtedly contained all her earthly belongings.

While waiting for the light to change she passed by a 2008 Dodge Viper (MSRP $85,545) a few feet away going in the opposite direction.


Just the insurance payments on this car for the next year would provide this woman with food and many more necessities during the same time period.

And yet the Republicans are dead set on making sure that wealthy families be allowed to 'pass down' their wealth to the next generation without paying any kind of estate taxes.

Poverty is the means by which the underclass is created which will serve the needs of the ultra-rich. Remember you don't have to be unemployed to live in poverty, which is the case with so many homeless families today.

IT is the same principle that has made 'outsourcing' of jobs so popular.

[philosophie_en_rose]

267. Gourmet meal from the Dollar Store?

I'm pretty lucky, so I'm not going to complain about me. However, $3 will buy a loaf of bread, peanut butter, and jelly at the Dollar Store. That segment is just ridiculous.

[ogneopasno]

292. I felt the exact same way when "Nickel and Dimed" came out.

nt

[Nevernose]

304. She didn't know that Wal-Mart sold pants

I liked the book, I'll say that up front, and overall I thought it was good and I hope that some of the people who needed to read it got around to reading it. Ms. Ehrlichman has been a tireless and outspoken advocate of economic justice issues for many years. I can see how the upper middle class/lower upper class -- chemical engineers, wealthy lawyers, many doctors, etc. -- who came from good homes could be insulated from that world. My new stepfather's one of those people. Mom just buys his shit at Wal-Mart anyway and TELLS him it was from the mall. He doesn't know the difference.

The most shocking thing to me was when the author needed a pair of tan slacks for her new job, so she went to the mall, and thought that she was slumming it by going to JC Penny's instead of Macy's and assumed that the reader would identify. It was later that she discovered she could have gotten three or four pants at Wal-Mart, which she apparently had never been to, and the quality was just as good. I can't afford to go to the mall, and I'm the middle-class! I make decent money, decent as in "I can afford TiVo service and can go on a small vacation once a year." But when you're a single parent living on a schoolteacher's salary in a city with a high cost of living, paying $50 for a pair of pants is just plain stupid.

[DailyGrind51]

297. It's a way of life for a growing number of Americans.

[laureloak]

303. No, but making the best of a bad situation is a good thing.

And I would love to see a trend towards less materialism.

[GreenPartyVoter]

310. When, indeed *hugs*