Georgians doing forced labor in S. Ossetia

[rockymountaindem]

TSKHINVALI, Georgia: Teams of ethnic Georgians, some under armed guard, were being forced to clean the streets of South Ossetia's capital on Saturday. It was the first apparent evidence of humiliation or abuse of Georgians in the Russian-controlled breakaway republic.

Three teams of ethnic Georgians, men in their 40s and 50s, were seen cleaning the streets of Tskhinvali, which was badly damaged in the fighting. When approached, one worker confirmed that he was being forced to work.

One group of about two dozen men was escorted through the streets by armed Ossetians and a Russian officer.

"Labor even turns monkeys into humans," the Russian officer said. He threatened to arrest an AP photographer if he took pictures.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/08/16/europe/EU-Georgia-South-Ossetia.php

[dkf]

1. Both sides are being run by monsters.

I feel sorry for the people who have such awful leaders.

If George Bush was involved in stirring this pot, he is responsible for more death and destruction.

The man is a curse.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

5. Pretty much.

One wonders what the Georgians would be doing with the Russians and Russian-supporting South Ossetians if they'd actually won.

[elehhhhna]

2. It was the first apparent evidence of humiliation or abuse of Georgians ...

cleaning up the mess they made when THEY invaded is humiliation & abuse? OH THE HUMANITY! Bet the Gitmo "detainees" WISH they were picking up trash on the streets.

[rockymountaindem]

3. Uh huh...

non-military aged men doing forced labor under armed guard by troops of another country is fine by you? It makes me think of this:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

4. I wasn't aware that ethnic Georgians in South Ossetia had hurt anyone.

Ya, fuck them cause their of the wrong ethnic group! Very forward thinking. This can only lead to better things.

I'd really like an explanation for how Georgians in South Ossetia (the ones who weren't already forced out ten years ago) are responsible for this conflict. Judging by your stance, you'd be happy to be conscripted to clean up Baghdad.

[CatWoman]

6. um

did not the Georgians create the mess they are being forced to clean up?

did they not invade S. O in the first place? I'm not talking about 10 years ago, either.

[dkf]

7. This isn't the Georgian military...its ethnic Georgians living in S. Ossetia.

Its like if the Iraqis forced you or I to do forced labor because George Bush is an idiot.

[CatWoman]

10. unfortunate for them, obviously

but I don't think the Russians are into making those distinctions.

[elehhhhna]

11. thank you for a resoned response. I find it hypocritical for our media tp

cry about prisoner abuse, given all we've done & continue to do.

[rockymountaindem]

8. The thing that puzzles me the most about the whole debate on this site

is that the people defending Russia and Russian actions in this scenario seem to completely forget/ignore the fact that S. Ossetia is legally Georgian territory and does *not* have any legal ties to Russia. The Russians are the only ones who think that either S. Ossetia or Abkhazia are in any way independent. The Georgians and the rest of the world recognize the independence movements in those states simply as rebel movements. That means that legally speaking the Georgians were undertaking operations within their own borders against an illegitimate rebel movement. I have not seen anybody challenge the Georgians in the legal context with actual evidence that S. Ossetia is an independent country, an autonomous region or part of Russia. If it is none of those things, then it can be nothing else than a piece of Georgia where the Georgian military has the monopoly of legitimate force.

Furthermore, even if the S. Ossetians were an autonomous zone, or an independent country etc. with ties to Russia, Georgia's actions there would still not justify the presence of Russian troops in various places in Georgia proper, or the Russians' airstrikes on Poti, Tblisi or other places within the Republic of Georgia.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. The Russians do not consider them independent.

No country, including Russia, recognizes South Ossetia or Abkhazia as sovereign. That is not to say that the Georgian attacks are justified. These territories are in dispute. Resolving the dispute should be the issue. Resolving it by force is, as we have seen, not a very good idea.

[northernlights]

32. S. Ossettia

has been self-governing since declaring independence 2 years after the breakup of the Soviet Union. They've been overseen, legally, by peacekeeping troops from Russia, Ossettia and Georgia.

Just because the UN and Georgia doesn't recognize them as sovereign states, doesn't mean that they aren't independent.

Georgia tried to take them over by force. Georgia miscalculated badly and lost. Tough break for Georgia.

As with all conflicts, the winner gets to make the new rules. The US can threaten and whine all it wants. W has no power to actually do anything.

[Matariki]

15. Our national memory seems to be barely 24 hours. If that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

16. Did not the Americans create the mess in Iraq?

Did they not invade Iraq in the first place? I'm assuming, based on your statements, that you'd be OK with you and your family being forced to work to clean up Baghdad.

[elehhhhna]

9. Georgia bombed Ossetia & killed 2K civilians. THEY started it. Fine by you?

If MX bombed Brownsville, TX b/c they wanted it back, would we sit idly by? NO.

[Igel]

12. Did they, now?

2000k?

And which impartial party told you this? AP, quoting Russian sources, or the Russian sources themselves?

The hospital in Tskhinvali and and independent NGO or two disagree. Running dogs of anti-Russianism that they are.

[rockymountaindem]

13. Prove that. Prove that they killed 2k civilians.

You can't. To wit:

"Russia exaggerating South Ossetian death toll, says human rights group"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront

"Deliberate attempts by the Russian government to exaggerate the number of people killed in the South Ossetia conflict are provoking revenge attacks on Georgian villagers in the breakaway republic, a respected human rights group claimed today.

Anna Neistat of Human Rights Watch (HRW), who is leading a team investigating the humanitarian damage in South Ossetia, told the Guardian that Russian estimates of 2,000 dead in the conflict were "suspicious".

"The figure of 2,000 people killed is very doubtful," she said. "Our findings so far do not in any way confirm the Russian statistics. On the contrary, they suggest the numbers are exaggerated."

Neistat said that HRW investigators had, today and yesterday, recorded cases of Ossetian fighters burning and looting Georgian villages north of the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali.

"The torching of houses in these villages is in some ways a result of the massive Russia propaganda machine which constantly repeats claims of genocide and exaggerates the scale of casualties," she said. "That is then used to justify retribution."

If you'll read the rest of the article you will see that they have done a more detailed casualty count by interviewing doctors from the main hospital in Tskhinvali and found that fatalities in the city numbered less than 50. The only sources you can cite for the 2000 dead claim come from the upper reaches of the Russian government such as FM Lavrov and Putin himself.

If you're still not convinced that the pro-Russian forces aren't angels you can also read this article from NPR:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=93606408

... and this one directly from HRW:
http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/georgi19607.htm

I'll point out one of the relevant passages---
"In South Ossetia, Human Rights Watch researchers traveling on the evening of August 12 on the road from the town of Java to Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, witnessed terrifying scenes of destruction in four villages that used to be populated exclusively by ethnic Georgians. According to the few remaining local residents, South Ossetian militias that were moving along the road looted the Georgian villages and set them on fire. Human Rights Watch saw numerous vehicles carrying South Ossetian militia members, as well as Russian military transports moving in the direction of Tskhinvali.

Numerous houses in the villages of Kekhvi, Nizhnie Achaveti, Verkhnie Achaveti and Tamarasheni had been burnt down over the last day – Human Rights Watch researchers saw the smoldering remnants of the houses and household items. The villages were virtually deserted, with the exception of a few elderly and incapacitated people who stayed behind either because they were unable to flee or because they were trying to save their belongings and cattle.

“The remaining residents of these destroyed ethnic Georgian villages are facing desperate conditions, with no means of survival, no help, no protection, and nowhere to go,” said Tanya Lokshina at Human Rights Watch."

So it looks like the Russians' attempts to fan the flames of Ossetian anger and violence by perpetuating the exaggerated casualty number are working.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

17. The USA bombed Iraq and killed 100,000 civilians.

Let me know when you're signing up for cleanup detail in Baghdad or Basra.

[CatWoman]

18. no

none of this is fine by me.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Oh, really.

Did you not just say upthread:

Did not the Georgians create the mess they are being forced to clean up?

The Georgian GOVERNMENT and its allies, and Russia created this mess. Your average Georgian peasant had NOTHING to do with this.

Again, lemme know when you're signing up for cleanup duty in Iraq.

[CatWoman]

26. I'm not signing up for a god damned thing

again, it's unfortunate for the peasants.

I was trying to convey the mindset of those who caused this.

"they" don't do nuances, nor distinctions.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

28. Neither do you, apparently.

The "mindset of the people who caused this" is completely irrelevant. This only serves to increase ethnic tensions in an already troubled area.

[dunow]

14. video of georgian president eating his tie....

Please watch this video. It shows the georgian president(Saakashvili) eating his tie!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kid379OjuC0

[dana_b]

22. it shows a lot more that that

it also shows of our ties to Georgia and, even though it says that Rice discouraged Georgia from entering into a conflict with Russia, it shows how Georgia really believes that we are with them. We must have told them domething before thi even though others in Europe were against them entering into NATO. Am I reading that right? We seem to have out dirty little paws in all of this. What is our motive? To help buld a democracy? Do they have resources that we want? Or we just want to put our bombs there - like we're doing in Poland?

[BeHereNow]

21. That seems fair- they made the mess, they should clean it up.

"The city was bombed and hit by heavy rocket fire when Georgia launched an offensive Aug. 7 to retake the separatist republic, and it saw fierce street battles after Russia responded to the Georgian attack by sending in hundreds of tanks."

The report should actually read,
"When the US launched the offensive using the Georgian military"

Guess the clean up contract wasn't lucrative enough for Halliburton to get involved.
BHN

[rockymountaindem]

23. So you're going on the record as being in favor of civilian forced labor?

Maybe we should have made Arab-Americans clean up the WTC site to make ourselves feel better :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

29. How quaint.

I've said it ten times in this thread and I'll say it again. Volunteer to go clean up the mess in Iraq that YOUR government caused, or STFU.

[BeHereNow]

30. I would gladly volunteer to help clean up the wreckage of Iraq.

Unfortunately, Halliburton and other private contract firms
have closed that option to people like me.

I like your idea- I think Americans should ALL be mandated to
go to Iraq to help clean up the mess.

Maybe then they would pay closer attention to what is being done
in their names with their tax dollars.

Now, I'll STFU, as you so eloquently requested, oh anonymous
keyboard warrior.

Want my phone number so you can say it to me in person?

BHN

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

31. How about Grenada, then?

I'm pretty sure you could go there and get a job helping people. There are plenty of NGO posts in other areas we've fucked up, as well. If you're really that concerned I'm sure you could find a position somewhere.

[BeHereNow]

34. How about you clarifying your motivation in posting this article?

Cause at this point, I'm thinking "flame bait."

You have completely derailed and are now apparently
intent on trying to engage me in a personal attack.

I've already said I would gladly go anywhere to help
in humanitarian efforts.

Now what IS your point?

BHN

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

36. Posting what article?

All I'm saying is that anyone who believes that it's OK for Georgian civilians to be forced into manual labor to make up for the actions of their government and army should have no problem with being forced into it themselves.


I've already said I would gladly go anywhere to help
in humanitarian efforts.


So go. What's stopping you? Do you not understand the difference between saying "oh yes, I'd be glad to help, in theory" and actually being forced to do so?

This is not a personal attack. I simply believe your position is hypocritical, based upon your own statements.

[BeHereNow]

41. What's stopping me? I have a newly diagnosed bipolar daughter.

Is that a good enough reason for you, or am I just
a hypocrite.

Fuck off.

BHN

[AllieB]

24. I'm almost finished Naomi Klein's 'The Shock Doctrine'

and this whole Georgia fiasco seems like a neo-con Friedman-lover's wet dream. Yeah, Russia is no saint but it's pretty obvious that the Georgians instigated this conflict with the help of the US military.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

38. So wrong , in so many ways...

See my post lower down the thread.

[AllieB]

39. Obviously you're still viewing this through the prism of the Cold War

Yes, Putin is a thug, and certainly has territorial ambitions. But if you think that the US-backed Georgian government is completely innocent in this whole affair, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. So I take it you're fine with being sent to Iraq to clean up that mess.

Or is that different?

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[Occam Bandage]

35. Yep. The Russian government and military is composed of jackbooted thugs.

So is the Georgian government. Pity the civilians caught between power plays.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

37. The people trying to defend the abuse of civilians should be made to do forced labour themselves.

Partly for allowing themselves to deliberately delude themselves into blaming this conflict on Georgia rather than Russia, not because of the evidence but because Bush favours Georgia and they are incapable of imagining anything worse than him, and partly for trying to justify abuse of civilians by refering to the behaviour of their government.

For the slow of thinking: what is going on in Georgia is that Russia has seized an excuse ("provocation" is *not* an appropriate word in this context; Georgia was trying to exert its authority over its own sovereign territory) to invade Georgia, annex large chunks of its territory, and commit numerous abuses (this is *not*, as the article referenced in the OP claimed, the first evidence of such) against civilians, and this is in no way, shape or form the fault of the American government, or of Georgia, it's the fault of the ex-KGB thug in the Kremlin who wants to increase Russia's military power.

[rockymountaindem]

40. People are acting like Georgia invaded Rusia

instead of asking why Russia is intervening in an internal Georgian matter. If it weren't for those "peacekeepers" which Russia so conveniently stationed in Ossetia, the Kremlin would have even less of a leg to stand on.