Georgia's "Invasion" Of South Ossetia: It Was A Massacre And War Crime

[Better Believe It]

Edition
August 16 / 17, 2008

The Humiliation of Georgia (and Bush)
Revisiting the "Battle of Tskhinvali"
By MIKE WHITNEY

There are no military installations in the city of Tskhinvali. In fact, there are no military targets at all. It is an industrial center consisting of lumber mills, manufacturing plants and residential areas. It is also the home to 30,000 South Ossetians. When Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered the city to be bombed by warplanes and shelled by heavy artillery last Thursday, he knew that he would be killing hundreds of civilians in their homes and neighborhoods. But he ordered the bombing anyway.

There was no "Battle of Tskhinvali"; that's another fiction. A battle implies that there is an opposing force that is resisting or fighting back. That's not the case here. The Georgian army entered the city unopposed; after all, how can unarmed civilians stop armed units. Most of the townspeople had already fled across the border into Russia or hid in their basements while the tanks and armored vehicles rumbled bye firing at anything that moved.

What took place in South Ossetia on August 7, was not an invasion or a siege; it was a massacre. The people had no way to defend themselves against a fully-equiped modern army. It was a war crime. In less than 24 hours, the Russian army was deployed to the war zone where it chased the Georgian army away without a fight. Michael Binyon put it this way in the London Guardian: "The attack was short, sharp and deadly---enough to send the Georgians fleeing in humiliating panic."

By the time the army was driven out, the downtown area was in engulfed in flames and the bodies of those who had been killed by sniper-fire were strewn along the streets and sidewalks. Many of people who stayed behind were simply too old or infirm to leave. Instead, they huddled in their basements waiting for the shelling to stop. It was a bloodbath. The city's only hospital was deliberately targeted and destroyed; another war crime. By day's end, over 2,000 people were killed in an operation that was clearly engineered with the assistance of the Bush White House. Bush regards Saakashvilli as his main client in the region; they are friends. He is America's cat's paw in the Caucasus. Saakashvilli's assignment is to try to get Putin to overreact militarily and demonstrate to European allies that Russia still poses a threat to their national security. Fortunately, many Europeans see through the ruse and know that the trouble originates in Washington.

Please read the entire article at:
http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney08162008.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rFAPE9C-tI&feature=related

[seemslikeadream]

1. yes it was and because of george bush we are responsible for it also

SOMEONE STOP THE EVIL PLEASE

[BeHereNow]

4. The tentacles of EVIL in Azerbaijan-

http://www.usacc.org/content.php?type=page&id=2&chi=5&par=3
Spread it far and wide.
BHN

[seemslikeadream]

16. will do

:hug:

[StClone]

38. Bush set this up so McCain could

Show up there as a White Knight.

[tblue]

2. Why does no one in the MSM cover this aspect of the story? That, and the oil pipeline involved?

[dipsydoodle]

3. Because you're in the USA

We in Europe actually get the news as it occurs.

edit to add - you might learn more , for example, from CNN World rather than your hommie stuff.

[retread]

5. I quoted the following on an earlier thread. Seems apropos here also.

"I'm still taken aback at the extent of indoctrination and propaganda in the United States. It's as if people there are being reared

in a sort of altered reality, like broiler chickens or pigs in a pen." -Arundhati Roy

[BeHereNow]

7. GREAT quote!!!

Arundhati Roy articles used to appear on DU regularly.
Not so much these days... along with Sheila Samples and
other greats, writers of substance are seldom brought to
the table anymore.
So sad.
BHN

[dipsydoodle]

13. Ditto

Great quote.

[malaise]

43. Classic quote

Arundhati rocks.

[tblue]

10. I rarely check out US MSM. Even NPR stinks. Democracy Now is where I go, or DU.

I can't believe how many educated, "well-read" people I know who only get news from cable, Time and Newsweek. They're always asking me, "How do you know all this?" They don't even know that there are other sources for news.

[davekriss]

73. It's exactly the same for me...

DU's Latest Breaking and my daily dose of Amy Goodman/Democracy Now! MSM? I watch a lot of CSPAN (Book TV rocks!) and an occasional movie on Sundance or IFC, that's about it.

[donco6]

50. I carry about every cable channel known to man. . .

and THAT particular one isn't available - go figger.

I do watch BBC World, and that's far better than anything else we get here. Deutsche Woche is good, too, but I can only catch about 1/4 of it with my sh*tty German.

We're in big trouble here.

[malaise]

6. You know why

The fawning corporate media (FCM) are doing their masters' bidding.

[BeHereNow]

9. Follow the money.

The very bastards raping the world and causing chaos for decades,
own the MSM.

BHN

[go west young man]

51. The irony is that there are DU'ers here who still fear the Soviet Union

and the propaganda of old Pravda when in actuality we are the ones receiving lies and propaganda through our MSM. And the majority of Americans absorb it unquestioningly even after the fiasco of Iraq. Our country is growing more dumbed down every passing second. The rest of the world is aware we're full of shit.

[KharmaTrain]

8. War Is The Ultimate Insanity

In fairness, it's not that this town didn't know it was sitting right in the middle of a boiling crisis between Russia & Georgia. It's on the main roads leading to North Ossetia and suffered in a previous attempt by Georgia to control the area in 1993. While not in a technical war zone, this area, just under its self-proclaimed autonomous status knew it was going to fall in the middle of any conflict...and the warning signs were there.

That said, it can't be said enough how war is the ultimate madness. It's the total breakdown of civil control and rational thought. It encourages the most heinous behavior and devalues human life...as well as used by various sides to frame the conflict as being the victim rather than the oppressor.

The sad truth is we really don't know who provoked this latest fighting...I've heard reports via BBC and on various international sites that say the Russians provoked the attack and the Georgians over-reacted...and at this point it doesn't matter. People are dead and sabres are being rattled. The Georgian government has bit off more than it could chew and thought their paid-for Americans would come to the rescue...become the new Hungary or 1938 Sudentenland. The problem is most people in this country can't remember what happened two years ago, yet 52 or 70 years ago...other than being fed silly analogies by "instant experts".

Looking at it from a distance, what benefit does Russia have in occupying the entire country? It serves them better to have a weakened neighbor(s) who are more clients than weak sisters. A major reason the Soviet Union fell was Moscow had to prop up a lot of these regions ahd perpetuate a highly inefficient and corrupt infrastructure that bankrupted the entire country. I'm not sure many Russians want to return to those days...of food lines and social stagnation.

[Wilber_Stool]

11. We must have given them our plans for

the invasion of Grenada. They don't have an army either.

[jimlup]

12. Because the MSM is going "Newspeak" on this does anyone have hard evidence?

I certainly believe that the charges that Georgia attacked are true.

Nevertheless, since the mainstream media (CNN, etc.) are covering this as if it is "Russian aggression", does anyone have hard evidence of the bombing in Georgia that would be taken seriously by those not accepting of alternative sources. The charge that "Georgia committed war crimes" is going to be a very hard charge to backup on mainstream forums and discussions with typical US citizens because of the western media complicity here. Does anyone know of stronger references - the best I've found is some stuff on BBC.

[rockymountaindem]

15. A google search for South Ossetia and ethnic cleansing

turns up a bunch of hits of Russian FM Sergai Lavrov claiming that the Georgians perpetrated ethnic cleansing. That is not exactly proof of anything. I also found this article from the NYT reporting on the fact that the leader of the S. Ossetian separatists has proudly proclaimed that they will drive all Georgians from the region and forbid their return. It also suggests that Russia's claims of genocide/ethnic cleansing are specious.

http://topics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/ethnic-cleansing-in-south-ossetia/

Edit: there's also this from The Age in Australia suggesting the Ossetians are doing their fair share of attacks on civilians
http://www.theage.com.au/world/looting-and-ethnic-cleansing-in-south-ossetia-as-soldiers-look-on-20080815-3wf7.html?skin=text-only

[go west young man]

75. Here's an early article from the CBC.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/08/russia-georgia.html

[go west young man]

76. And a recent NY Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/world/europe/18georgia.html?_r=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin


The conflict began Aug. 7 when Georgian troops entered the breakaway region of South Ossetia, which has strong ties to Russia, and Russia responded by sending its own troops deep into Georgian territory. The Kremlin has said Georgia provoked the conflict in South Ossetia, whose populace is hostile to Georgia, and Russian officials have referred to Mikheil Saakashvili, the Georgian president, as a war criminal. Mr. Saakashvili has contended that Russia is determined to turn Georgia into the kind of vassal state that existed during Soviet times.

[AntiFascist]

14. K&R, more truth leaking out to the US...

how soon before we become like China and out internet access becomes more "managed"?

[alarimer]

17. So was Russia's response.

Like the Israel/Palestine conflict, there are no good guys here. A pox on ALL their houses.

[Subdivisions]

18. Um, what exactly do you expect the Russians to have done? Under these

circumstances, should they have simply watched the carnage? And, when they responded, exactly what atrocity, besides sending the Georgians running for their lives, did they commit?

[Igel]

19. How's this?

Accepting irregular trrops. Chechen's, "Cossacks", and S. Ossetians as paramilitaries. Arming, uniforming, and transporting them from Vladikavkaz through Dzhava, if necessary, to S. Ossetia. Allowing them into civilian areas, unsupervised, with their weapons.

Preventing Georgian authorities from establishing order where the paramilitaries are allowed to roam.

Destroying civilian infrastructure with no military use, after combat and fighting has concluded. Looting, by soldiers and the endorsed paramilitaries, from businesses to home electronics.

Not providing aid to refugees, even once a ceasefire has been signed--and only allowing in some aid. Destroying infrastructure after a ceasefire has been signed. Continuing to occupy, in some cases new, territory, and digging in until the terms agreed to are "properly" understood to mean whatever the Russians think they should mean at any given time.

Continuing the assault beyond what was necessary to achieve the stated goals--driving out the Georgian hordes. Then, to ensure "stability"--presumably by having a reliable political partner.

Setting up ethnic Georgian--not POW--work brigades, to clean up the damage done by their ethnic peers across the border.

Allowing the preferred S. Ossetian government to proudly state they'll engage in ethnic cleansing--a second round (the first round was reciprocal).

Any of these sound good, should the US do them? All of them, perhaps?

Now, many of the "atrocities" are done under the aegis of the Russians, not by them. So I guess if we send in lots of mercenaries to torment the Iraqis, strip their country and create havoc, you approve? Nah. Didn't think so.

Such behavior would find no defenders here, should the US do it. One doesn't have to defend Georgia to discuss Russia and its allies. The rightness and morality of one's conduct is unrelated to the other's.

We seem to have a lot of thking along the lines of "X is wrong --> not-X is right". Not a valid inference. Might be true. Might not be true. But it gets you nowhere, logically.

[Subdivisions]

20. Thanks for the education...

really.

[Better Believe It]

21. Are You Claiming That's What Actually Happened In Georgia?

Prove it with some links.

[sknabt]

54. Better Believe It? I think not

This is probably the 3rd thread I've seen you start on the Georgia situation and the links you provide, at best, only tell one side of the issue, the sympathetic Russian view. Worse, much of the 'information' is sourced back to Russian propaganda.

The 2,000 dead figure comes from the Russians who used this alleged genocide to justify invasion. Unfortunately, as I pointed out earlier, the BBC interviewed an independent human rights organization that can't find evidence to any of this. IMHO, it's manufactured propaganda akin the babies in incubators being killed by Saddam's troops. Here's Human Rights Watch's documentation of the causalities caused by both sides: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/13/russia19620.htm.

What you ignore is that Russia's disproportionate response has led to a humanitarian crisis as well. It's unclear to what extent the widespread looting, burning of houses, shelling of civilian targets and murders are by the hands of Russians or South Ossetians they've allowed to run roughshod throughout Russian occupied Georgia but these are hardly the actions of peacekeepers.

Human Rights Watch covers the Ossetian militia issue: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/16/georgi19630.htm. Human Rights Watch also documents civilians being killed by Russian cluster bombs: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm. Both Georgia and Russia used indiscriminate weapons: http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/12/georgi19594.htm.

Under Putin, Russia has backslid. Governors are now political appointees, the press has been cracked down on, and state control over business sectors like energy placed under tighter state control. Now it appears he's returning to the Soviet era politics of bringing bordering states back under satellite control.

As I keep repeating, there are few good guys in this picture. Georgia's invasion of South Ossetia is wrong and deserved to be condemned by the Bush administration. I find Bush's and McCain's viewpoint that since it's within Georgia's borders they have the right to stomp its independence movement troubling but Russia has lost all credibility hiding behind the thin excuse its move into Georgia is based in altruism. The Russians have compounded the other wrongs by at least an order of a couple orders of magnitude. Thus far, they've repeatedly lied about their intentions. Lets hope they live up to their latest promise to pull out of Georgia: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7566199.stm.

[Better Believe It]

56. Care To Say What You Disagree With In The Posted Article?

I hope you're not going to claim the author is one of those paid "Russian red propagandists" and/or apologists for Putin.

He isn't an apologist for the right-wing Georgian dictatorship or Putin.

1,000 U.S. Marines in a military training excercise with Georgian troops armed and paid for by Bush government right on the Russian border!

Russia once again feels threatened by the right-wing regime in the United States.

Can you blame them?

[sknabt]

63. Can't you see both sides?

In my various replies I've been critical of all sides: Bush, Saakashvili, and Putin (or his sock puppet Medvedev, take your pick).

Can I blame Russia for invading Georgia? Certainly. Especially, if the issue is 1,000 US Marines participating in a training exercise with Georgia's army. What's the threat to Russia? Georgia's 26,000 strong army will succeed where Napoleon and Hitler failed and march through Russia capturing Moscow? ;)

All the excuses apologizing for the Russian invasion of Georgia don't hold water. There was no human rights disaster of the scale the Russians have fictionalized to justify their action.

Putin's iron fist response clearly is having the effect he hoped of terrorizing the Georgians and intimidating countries in its shadow. However, Russia's intention is clearly to keep them out of the NATO fold and pull them back under their sphere of influence yet it appears it's having the exact opposite effect. Worse for Russia, rather that wilt in the face of overwhelming force and undermining internal support of Saakashvili, the nation has rallied behind him in massive displays of solidarity.

Putin is hardly a hero. He's cracked down on Russia's press dramatically shortening the lifespan of investigative journalists, he's turned elected governors into politically appointed puppets, and he's pushed for state control of industries like energy. He's using his oil wealth to rebuild Russia's military. He's used natural gas as a political weapon against Ukraine, a threat not lost on Europe that's dependent on Russia for its energy needs.

Putin has said one of the greatest tragedies in history was the fall of the Soviet Union. The question is how far will the man go towards rebuilding it?

[Ex Lurker]

24. I know that I'm a relatively new

poster (although I've lurked here for a long time). So my opinion doesn't really mean much to a lot of people here, and may even get me accused of being a freeper troll. But it's really frustrating that so many reflexively take whatever side they perceive to be in opposition to the US/Bush, regardless of the facts. One side being in the wrong does not always mean the other side is in the right.

[Better Believe It]

26. The Nation and George W. Bush Are Not The Same Thing

"But it's really frustrating that so many reflexively take whatever side they perceive to be in opposition to the US/Bush, regardless of the facts."

The United States and George W. Bush are not the same thing.

And if you carefully and objectively look at the hard facts you will oppose the Georgia invasion and the Bush governments support of the right-wing dictatorship in Georgia.

[retread]

29. I am hard pressed to think of one position in the last eight years taken in opposition to Bush,

reflexive or otherwise, that didn't turn out the correct position.

By the way, if you don't wish to be seen as a freeper you might start by refraining from conflating Bush and the US.

[Ex Lurker]

34. it's one thing to question the

propaganda coming out of Washington, and quite another to accept at face value the propaganda coming out of Moscow, simply because it's at odds with the US line. A specific example was the report last week of an American mercenary captured in Georgia. Clearly propaganda, and, as expected, was never confirmed. Yet it was immediately believed by many who posted on the thread, because it reinforced what they already believed. I note also the report today of Georgian civilians drafted into forced labor by the Russians, accompanied by pictures, which makes it a little less likely to be phonied up. It was excused by some here. As for being taken for a freeper, I wouldn't fit in over there, believe me. Perhaps I don't fit in here, either. If so, my stay will likely be short. But while I'm here, I'll call 'em like I see 'em.

[fascisthunter]

48. I Think you misunderstand... most don't

but most instead understand the reasons behind this conflict. When I say "most", I mean those you may think are reflexively supporting Russia because of Bush. It's not what you think.

Ooops.. I Almost forgot: Welcome to DU.

[rustydad]

25. Not

You clearly don't have a clue. MSM brain poisoning I would think. Bob

[Hannah Bell]

27. "should" the us do it? the us does it. georgia invaded territory

that's been in the russian orbit since the 90s, & seemingly by choice, not coercion. georgia bombed non-military targets in an unprovoked invasion - & you're whining cause georgia didn't "supervise" troops. well, in military conflict, there's always something. so maybe georgia shouldn't have invaded, & maybe the us shouldn't have green-lighted it. which they did, as i'm very certain time will show.

[Gregorian]

22. I was a fool. Thanks for posting this. Now I know.

Here I was thinking that what the BBC said was true. That Putin had fired on Georgia firwst.

Not only was that not true, but now I see that Little Hitler had a hand in this. I'm outraged.

So we can comfortably assume that Rove was in the region prior to the massacre for a reason.

[Better Believe It]

23. And Remember That 1,000 U.S. Marines Were Just In Georgia

1,000 U.S. Marines Began Joint Military Exercise In Georgia On July 15th!

Ceremony opens Immediate Response 2008
By Lance Cpl. Edward H. Currie, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marines
U.S Marine Corps
July 15, 2008

VAZIANI TRAINING BASE, Georgia — Immediate Response 2008, a joint training exercise between U.S. service members and the Georgian Ministry of Defense, opened with a ceremony July 15.

The ceremony had key speakers, a joint-service multi-national color guard, a blessing of the Georgian troops and representatives from every unit in attendance.

Some of the speakers for the event included Brig. Gen. William B. Garrett III, U.S. Army Airborne Commander, South European Task Force, Lt. Col. Hosay Page Shavalle, deputy chief of defense, Georgian Armed Forces and Lt. Col. Craig Triscari, Task Force Lion chief of staff.

The ceremony began with the posting of the colors by a joint color guard which consisted of two Marines, three U.S. soldiers and two members of the Georgian Armed Forces holding the flags at the same height to symbolize the countries working together.

“This exercise’s purpose is to increase cooperation and partnership and has been planned for many years,” said Garrett, “We are honored to be here, and the Georgians have an excellent reputation.”

A Georgian Greek Orthodox priest was in attendance at the ceremony to bless the Georgian troops with holy water before their venture into the field.

Company L, 3rd Battalion, 25th Marine Regiment, U.S. Army’s Southern European Task Force, elements of the National Guard and the Georgian Ministry of Defense are participating in the exercise.

http://www.marines.mil/units/marforres/Pages/Ceremonyop...


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Reuters
July 15, 2008

VAZIANI, Georgia - One thousand U.S. troops began a military training exercise in Georgia on Tuesday against a backdrop of growing friction between Georgia and neighboring Russia.

The two-week exercise was taking place at the Vaziani military base near the capital Tbilisi, which was a Russian air force base until Russian forces withdrew at the start of this decade under a European arms reduction agreement.
Georgia and the Pentagon cooperate closely. Georgia has a 2,000-strong contingent supporting the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, and Washington provides training and equipment to the Georgian military.

Georgia last week recalled its ambassador in Moscow in protest at Russia sending fighter jets into Georgian airspace. Tbilisi urged the West to condemn Russia's actions.

Russia said the flights were to prevent Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili from launching a military operation against the separatist South Ossetia region.

http://cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=u...

[Submariner]

30. I find it interesting that your links do not work

Makes me wonder if mass censorship by the Bush Politburo is going on.

[Better Believe It]

31. These Links Should Work!

http://www.marines.mil/units/marforres/Pages/CeremonyopensImmediateResponse2008.aspx


http://cache.search.yahoo.net/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=u.s.+war+games+georgia&fr=moz2&u=www.cnbc.com/id/25684774/&w=u.s.+war+wars+games+georgia+ga&d=BfEXvhg5RNJN&icp=1&.intl=us

[Submariner]

32. Those worked, thanks n/t

[dipsydoodle]

40. Are you sure you've got that right ?

Firsy news I recall from the Beeb on the subject was the artillery bombardment on S. Osettia, accompanied by the use of armoured vehicles , by the Georgians - and I'm in the UK with BBC 24 Hour News live on both the computer and TV.

Here's the BBC's time line of events : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551576.stm

Note Thursday 7th :

Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.

Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.

South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".


The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".

[Gregorian]

53. BBC America had a different take on it. Weird.

They showed a disheveled and upset looking Georgian president claiming he fired "ten seconds" after Russian tanks fired upon them.

But who knows how the BBC works. Maybe they had to update their story. Or maybe they know enough to feed lies to Americans, knowing we drink them up.

[dipsydoodle]

67. He tends to distort the truth - substantially at times.

The BBC reported accurately in what I posted above. What was posted originally by the BBC may have been as a result of his acting - what else would you expect of a 40 year old NY lawyer. The BBC and other new organistaions subsequently wised up to his antics.

[Tutonic]

28. Good post.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Joe Fields]

35. Every day we get more damning news..(but not from our media)

Thanks. K&R.

Have you ever felt like writing letters to the peoples of the countries that have Bush's fingerprints all over them and just saying that we, the people of the U.S. are nothing like our government, and we are sorry?

[autorank]

36. K*R Excellent. Whitney is solid

Thanks for the post.

This is the type of analysis the Democrats need to get.

Who is briefing Obama on foreign affairs. He should show them the door.

[go west young man]

62. Zbigniew_Brzezinski who incidentally sits on the U.S. - Azerbaijan Chamber of Commerce BOD.

Links here: So folks can see that the foreign policy of the U.S. will not change should Obama become president (which I seriously doubt anyway as we will all be voting on Republican owned software.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
http://www.usacc.org/contents.php?cid=23

Of course Azerbaijan is where the pipeline originates that passes through Tablisi, Georgia.

[BeHereNow]

66. Buh... buh... but...

The MSM hasn't said anything about THAT.
Why do you hate America?
For our free-to-be-dumbs?
COMMIE PINKO~!
Off to Gitmo with you!
BHN

[go west young man]

74. Hey it's "Murika" not America.

Hasn't Bush taught you anything!;-)

[BeHereNow]

77. Actually, it's DUH-murikkka!

Didn't you get the memo?
It was attached to the Free-to-be-dumb Fries one.
Sheesh!
Don't you keep up with these things?
BHN

[bushmeister0]

37. "A Massacre And War Crime" my ass!

Nope! Sorry, can't blame this one one Bush, much as I'd like to.

You normally don't stage one of these deals with your main puppet falling down and smacking asses in a country all the way 'round the world.

If this had been one of "those" we would have had a lot more media lead-up, to get the people ready for the next lie.

This is totally Vlad Putin's work here.

You cite the blood thirsty Georgian hordes were "driven out" by the Russians "in less than 24 hours."

What an amazing military feat!

If this was such a major surprise to the Russians, how is it they were able to deploy about three hundred tanks and 5000 some troops
within 24 hours? If you know anything about the Russian army, you should know they're basically a shambles.

Any army, on a good day, would need several months to assemble, provision and position such a large number of troops and materiel for such an undertaking.

Do you seriously mean to tell me the fucking hapless, mainly Shanghaied, dedovshchina infested Russian army could accomplish such a stunning victory over an American supported and trained army?

There's no F'in way they just all of a sudden just appeared ready to "protect" the poor, defenseless people of South Ossetia. Common', pull the other one!

Read more about the state of the Russian army here.

http://bushmeister0.tripod.com/bushmeister0/index.blog/1400381/dedovshchina/

This thing has been brewing for a while now and the BushCo people have also obviously been planning something, but I think they truly didn't count on Vlad pulling this sort of thing on them this quick. Vlad, being the gangster he is, saw a weakness and he went for it. Plain as that. (Hitler always used to plan his "surprises" on Sundays. Vlad decided the Olympics would do, quite nicely.)

Ultimately, it all comes down to W. f'in' up on Kosovo, that gave Vlad the excuse he was looking for. What's the difference between Kosovo independence and South Ossetia and Abkahzia? (or Nakarno-Karabagh, for that matter. Stay tuned on that one!)

read here:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bushmeister0/24

We'd like to think this bunch in the WH are all that sneaky, but as we should have all learned by now, they're just as bad at foreign policy as they are at saving American cities from disasters.

Nothing nefarious going on here, just idiocy.

PS. That whole thing about "sniper fire" is a convenient lie to allow the Russians and their South Ossetian "allies" (irregular thugs and smugglers) to justify ethnically cleansing South Ossetian/Georgians out of their homes. Give me a F'in' break! Anyone remember the Kosovo war? Putin makes Milosevic look like Barney, the purple dinosaur. Wake up and smell the coffee, not the shit coming from the Putin propaganda smoke machine. (Propaganda is a Russian word, right?)

[Avalux]

44. Propoganda is an American word too. Or haven't you noticed?

You're taking a very narrow view of the situation by laying the blame at the feet of Putin. Both countries are to blame. Georgia will not be admitted to NATO without intact borders; they must resolve South Ossetia and fully integrate it into the country. Russia won't allow that to happen.

I'd love to blame Bushco for incompetence but can't. They're once again using a highly charged event for political gain - political gain for one of their own.

At this point in the administration THAT should be obvious.

[Selatius]

59. A point of clarity on 5000 Russian troops with 300 tanks.

The Russian army, as far as I know, stands at roughly 700,000 strong. They have something like 20,000 tanks left over from the Cold War. Some new. Some old.

Mustering 300 tanks and 5000 men would not be much of a feat for Russia, given that Russia already had troops in North Ossetia to support Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia as per agreement after South Ossetians fought a war of independence against Georgia back in 1992.

Now, if Russia wanted to send in 5000 tanks with 100,000 troops, it would take several weeks to mobilize.

[autorank]

68. It's been simmering but Georgia attacked and said they were attacking.

They did it while they were negotiating with the Russians.

This comic opera government of Georgia, now virtually a one party state thanks to the "Rose" revolution,
gave Russia the green light to go in there a raise Hell. What's supposed to happen when your enemy
starts a war - you stop, reflect, and do the least you can. Nonsense. They did what any major power
would do. They did what we'd do if, lets say, Cuba attacked Tampa.

The deployment of Russian tanks is irrelevant in terms of who started this. In fact, the deployment
should have had this Ruritania of semi Europe on alert to not screw up.

As for U.S. training, that's supposed to make the Georgian Army invincible. Please. They ran to the
neutral corner like a 'rasslin' bad guy begging for relief the minute they were confronted.

Did Bush plan this? It's hard to conceive anything that stupid. If any foreign policy planners could
be that stupid, they're among the small group. But this looks more like a grand stand play by the
clown we put in charge there.

Did you see him with Rice a couple of days ago blaming not only Russia but those who stood by and
allowed "this to happen." What a fool.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

39. Human rights watch disagreed, last time I checked.

I'm afraid I don't regard this as terribly credible (although it's certainly too soon to rule it out).

[pampango]

72. The latest from Human Rights Watch seems to accuse both sides of violations.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/17/georgi19633.htm

Their main point is that an international fact-finding mission is needed. That seems like a good idea.

"In interviews with Georgians who fled South Ossetia and the Gori district following Russian forces’ assault on the area, Human Rights Watch has documented the Russian military’s use of indiscriminate force and its seemingly targeted attacks on civilians, including on a civilian convoy. The deliberate use of force against civilians or civilian objects is a war crime. Human Rights Watch has also confirmed the Russian military’s use of cluster bombs in two towns in Georgia (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm).

Human Rights Watch interviews with more than 100 people in Tskhinvali and in the villages of Nizhni Gudjaver and Khetagurovo yielded a clearer picture of Georgian forces’ indiscriminate use of Grad multiple rocket launchers and tank fire. In Tskhinvali, Human Rights Watch saw numerous severely damaged civilian objects, including a hospital, apartment buildings, houses, schools, kindergartens, shops, administrative buildings, and the university (http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/12/georgi19594.htm)."

[vssmith]

41. If it weren't for the pipelines Bush would give it as little attention

as he did Darfur or New Orleans.

[Larry Ogg]

42. Ok now that the truth is coming out, will Obama have a change in opinion as to whom

the aggressor is? Maybe he didn't know what was going on and just spoke to soon.

In reference to the following article:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/11/mccain-obama-urge-diplomatic-move-against-russia/

McCain, Obama urge diplomatic move against Russia
CHARLES BABINGTON ASSOCIATED PRESS
Originally published 06:01 p.m., August 11, 2008, updated 06:01 p.m., August 11, 2008

ERIE, PA. (AP) - Presidential rivals John McCain and Barack Obama on Monday called for a multi-pronged diplomatic effort to force Russia to withdraw from Georgia, saying Moscow's relationship with the rest of the world depends on it backing down.

Both candidates said Europe and other nations must be united against Russia's widening assault against Georgia, U.S.'s closest ally among the democratizing former Soviet republics. And they said NATO should reconsider its decision to withhold a "membership action plan" for Georgia.

That decision "might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia," McCain, a Republican senator from Arizona, said.

Speaking to reporters in Pennsylvania, McCain said Russia appears intent on toppling the Georgian government rather than simply restoring the status quo in the pro-Moscow province of South Ossetia, which Georgia is trying to keep from breaking away.

"NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia," McCain said.

He said the United States "should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis."

"We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world," McCain said.

Obama, a Democratic senator from Illinois, also urged a multinational response but added that U.N. Security Council should play a major role in helping end the crisis. He said the Security Council should pass a resolution calling for an immediate end to the violence, and urged a U.N. mediator to join French and Finnish foreign ministers in Georgia to try to end the fighting.

"The U.N. must stand up for the sovereignty of its members and peace in the world," Obama told reporters during his weeklong vacation in Hawaii.

Like McCain, Obama warned that Russia's future relationships are at stake. An international forum, he said, should be convened to review Russia's interest in joining the World Trade Organization.

"We want Russia to play its rightful role as a great nation," Obama said. "But with that role comes the responsibility to act as a force for progress in this new century, not regression to the conflicts of the past."
___
Associated Press Writer Jaymes Song in Hawaii contributed to this report.

[Pooka Fey]

45. K&R glad to start hearing some real info about this crises.

[Pooka Fey]

46. Kick- oops duped this one. Well, it's important enough.

[fascisthunter]

47. Horrible... Thanks for This Post

The World just can't afford war anymore, as cultures and people mix... it's never a good thing, even if it's necessary. I think many of our political counterparts have the opposite point of view because of propaganda. War is not a sport where there are winners and losers..... it's never that simple. I know because of my family's background.

The worse part of a war, are those who orchestrate them and use the people to fight them.

[Turbineguy]

49. I know Mike Whitney personally

and we have spent many hours in pleasant conversation, but I think he's off base on this one. The first time ever, as far as I know!

The Georgian situation was scripted by the Russians from soup to nuts.

If these Ossetians were so abused by Georgians, why did it take Russia 17 years to respond to their plight?

The Bush Administration was no doubt involved and provided its usual incompetent assistance. Saakashvili walked into a Russian trap. Now after nearly 2 weeks word comes out that Ms Rice warned Saakashvili not to "provoke" the Russians. The Bush Administration seems to have waited to figure out who the victors were before taking sides.

Just because the Bush people are low-life liars, does not mean the Russians are telling the truth.

[Karenina]

58. You claim knowledge of him...

I wonder if he would do the same! :rofl:

[justaregularperson]

61. Russia responded to Georgian aggression

While certainly Russia has it's own spin and interests, there is simply no excuse for Georgia initiating agression against unarmed civilians. Russians are not stupid, they understand that the best way to put this agression to rest is to respond very forcefully.

What is happening there, while Russia's hands are not completly clean, is far more "justifiable" than the war in Iraq.

Having friends who have been affected, I know firsthand the persecution that is occurring to ethnic Russians in former Soviet territories. You can say what you want about how the pre-soviet Russia and the Soviet Union displaced these people, but they have families that have called these areas home longer than many of us have had our roots in the USA.

We have to get away from these ideas of Nationalism and begin to be more consistant about the principles of self-rule. These areas do not feel welcome as part of Georgia and their people have decided to either be on their own or merge with another country they feel more comfortable with. Georgia certainly has a right to approach and try to convince them otherwise through diplomacy and compromise, but we have to end this idea that territories are more important than the will of people.

[mojowork_n]

65. Does it make you feel any better if we put the blame squarely

on Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин? Mr. Dzhugashvili, that mustachioed dwarf who succeeded Lenin?

A Georgian, he carved off a couple of extra slices of territory, that had been populated by ethnic Russians since time immemorial, when the "modern" borders of Georgia were drawn. In fact, Stalin was the Bolsheviks' point man on the whole "National Minorities" question. It was a colonial sort of divide-and-rule strategy -- with traditional Russian nationalists/whites/loyalists composing most of their opposition, the Bolsheviks wanted to minimize that opposition as much as possible. They gerrymandered the maps to make all of the "Russian" parts smaller, everywhere.

The same thing was done in the former Yugoslavia, by Tito, after 1945 (to make the "Serb" areas, the territory of the numerically largest "nationalist" group, smaller.)

In fact, the British, French and Germans pulled the same sorts of tricks with their colonial populations, in Africa and elsewhere, to minimize opposition.

• In the modern, corporate, era, the biggest pigs at the trough still wrestle for prime access to the swill, only in this case the actual logistics involve huge, multi-billion dollar pipelines and access to oil.
  
  
• The Russians didn't build the BTC pipeline to pull an end-run around Russia and Iran, the oil companies did.
  
  
• They had no interest in re-drawing any borders, to help minimize ethnic friction, they've actually fanned the flames, to maintain their control of the "disputed" areas.
  
  
• The lives of ordinary people don't matter. Profits do.
  

[autorank]

69. You might want to reflect on two things

First, you have to create a Russian "trap" for this event. It wasn't. The Georgian "strong man" did
this all on his own. He was negotiating with the Russians, whatever the two of them call negotiating,
and then he attacked. Period. Forget what happened before or after. It want from a mess to an
armed conflict at the hadn of Georgia's leader, installed in the "Rose" revolution sponsored by, guess
who, the U.S. government.

Second, is your stance on "evil" Russia due to the knee jerk attack on Russia by Clark and the
equanimity of the original Obama response that morphed into the "evil" Russia party line by Bush? If
Whitney is right, and he seems to be, or if he's close, or simply given the fact that Georgia started
this by attacking during negotiations, then the correct response is: "The Georgian state had no
business attacking the Osettian capitol, especially while they were negotiating with the Russians and
Osettians on a peaceful resolution of the issue. Both sides should restrain themselves and return to
the negotiating table." Of course, Obama could have slammed the financial interests of the war hawks
who want us to pay for and die for their dividends. But I'd have settled for the model statement above.

As for your castigation of Russia, what would you say about a government that preemptively invaded a
nation that posed no imminent danger and caused civil strife, entirely predictable, resulting in the
deaths of 1,000,000 innocent civilians in that country plus the loss of 4,000 of that nation's loyal
troops who were told this invasion was necessary to protect their country?

[Turbineguy]

70. Call me "Stuck in the I-Like-Ike era"...

But I do miss the "capitalist-imperialist-running-dogs" style of propaganda.

If you are a small country and you want to be allies with the U.S. you have to accept who ever the Presdient is at the time.

BTW, I wonder if Russia, or for that matter Georgia, have an equivalent of snopes.com?

Memo to self: Say nice things about Mr. Putin from now on.

The Bush Administration installed Saakashvili? Would this be the same Bush Adminstration that prevented the 9/11 attacks? Would this be the same Bush Administration that did not attack Iraq? How about the outstanding way they handled the Katrina disaster? If the Bush Adminstration had installed Saakashvili the Georgian population would have likely begged the Russians to attack and throw the bum out.

[Better Believe It]

52. Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili Eats His Tie: This Is A Real Video!

Check out the video at:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x170697

[L0oniX]

55. If our crime syndicate admin had not invaded Iraq, we could say something about it...

without being total asscarrot hypocrites.

[WillyT]

57. Big K & R !!!

:kick:

[alphafemale]

60. kick

[Major Hogwash]

64. And yet the MSM blames all of the fighting on Russia!!!!

The propaganda machine was working fulltime all week making sure we were all told to blame Russia for this fighting in Georgia.

Then Bush came back from China and he blamed Russia.
And then he sent Condasleeza Rice to Georgia and she blamed Russia.
And the president of Georgia blamed Russia.

You know what we need, don't ya.
A military tribunal held at the Hauge for the entire Bush admin!!!!!!!

[autorank]

71. The administration can go to The Hague but Bush will encounter justice here

The Trial of George W. Bush for Murder