Why are there very few black swimmers at the Olympics?

[XemaSab]

There seem to be MANY terrific black athletes in almost every other sport, so why not swimming? :shrug:

Edit: changed "No" to "Very few."

It's true. There are very few.

[Catch22Dem]

1. On the US team - Cullen Jones

An African American swimmer helped Phelps win gold (and of course won gold himself) in the 4 X 100.

[XemaSab]

4. I edited the OP

:P

[gatorboy]

52. He fell behind quite a bit there.

Lezak had to make up quite a gap.

[JackBeck]

2. A member of our relay team is Black.

And helped us win a Gold.

[XemaSab]

5. I edited the OP

:P

[bicentennial_baby]

3. Cullen Jones swims for the U.S. team

He became the 2nd African American to win gold for swimming after the 4x100 last week.

[XemaSab]

8. I edited the OP

:P

[Squatch]

6. ...

[XemaSab]

10. Yeah, one of our guys is black

But it's an honest question.

You look at a lot of other sports: track, basketball, boxing, soccer... there are a LOT of African nations competing, and a lot of people of African descent winning medals for countries outside of Africa.

Why not swimming? :shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. Good question

Maybe it is lack of access to pools?

In the metro area where I live, the suburban school districts all have swim teams and swimming programs, while very few of the urban districts have swimming programs. There also aren't as many pools in the urban core, where the majority of our African American population lives.

[Terran]

38. That is it, exactly

End of discussion.

[cprompt]

56. that's not exactly it

most african-americans live in the South, and trust me it's not hard to find a pool/lake to swim at in the summer here whether it be at a YMCA, church, or friends house. Most african-americans I know do not know how to or refuse to swim. My son has 3 black friends in our neighborhood that come over to swim from time to time. 2 years ago I had to jump in to save one boy from drowning. every year at the start of football season I invite the team/parents over for a cookout/swim and I promise you it never fails, 80% of the african-american adults & kids will tell you they don't know how to swim or won't get in.

[goclark]

73. The lack of access to a pool is a slice of it

I am African American and my uncle was a life guard at the Colored YMCA in 1936.

My cousin was a good swimmer but had no interest in pursuing it. He loves to golf.

We have so many role models in Basketball and Football. :shrug:

[Botany]

7. Cullen Jones

not to be racist but I think he is black :rofl:

I like him because he is easy to pick out in a race :rofl:

[XemaSab]

11. .

:eyes: :P

[Catch22Dem]

9. There are several, but mostly from countries that don't compete heavily in swimming

Not sure why.

[Da Fusa]

12. money and other resources.

most inner city schools don't have pools or swim programs and private coaches cost money

[XemaSab]

13. But what about in Africa?

Do you suppose it's the same reason, basically? :shrug:

[blm]

17. How many African high schools have swim teams?

.

[Da Fusa]

22. swim from a crocodile...you could make the olympic team

I don't know, guy, I was just pointing out that there are probably few blacks even interested in swimming competitively because there's not a big demand for it in the inner city and a lack of money invested.

[XemaSab]

23. I've never been to Africa

I really couldn't tell you if people swim there. :shrug:

I would guess that people in the Caribbean swim though. :shrug:

[blm]

27. My point is that their school systems have different priorities. Swim, tennis, hockey teams in US

are luxuries for those high-schools that have them. They take up space and require expensive and excessive training that 98% of our high-schools just don't have.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. It's not a matter of whether people swim

Michael Phelps wasn't selected out of a population of swimmers at the local watering hole. He was involved in organized swimming at expensive facilities from a fairly young age. There's no doubt that people of African descent in the Caribbean swim. The question is whether they are involved in large enough numbers in organized swimming to allow selection by knowledgeable coaches. That's a much more dubious, and much more expensive, proposition.

[alcibiades_mystery]

24. There are certainly cultural reasons, but economic barriers remain a factor

Yes, even in Africa. If you consider the major expenditure required for a swim program, the problem is obvious.

We should also note that the cultural preference is an EFFECT of economic restrictions, or at least not completely independent of access issues. If you look at the sports that tend to be valued by populations affected by structural poverty, you'll notice that they tend to be 1) team sports (basketball, soccer), with 2) public facilities (basketball court), and 3) cheap equipment needs (10 people can play basketball or soccer with a single $30 ball).

The cost of any given pick up game is almost negligible. The cost of an hour of swim time for structured swimming is astronomical by comparison.

[cboy4]

14. Probably for the same reason there are zero white

basketball players on the men's team.



Personally, I couldn't care less about skin color, unless it's being used to keep people out.

And I don't think that's what's going on.

[XemaSab]

20. I would guess that the "whiteness" or "blackness" of our basketball team is cultural

There's an unofficial farm system in the cities, and it's a cultural activity among African-Americans in a way that doesn't hit the 'burbs at all.

So is it the same way in swimming for Africans and people of African descent?

And why? I can see how you can practice running with like, no budget, so why not swimming?

:shrug:

[RB TexLa]

21. Actually there is .5 on the team

[cboy4]

30. Actually, it might be .5 times 3 for a total of 1.5

Although I'm not positive.

[RB TexLa]

34. Could be, I was just going by Jason.

[blm]

15. Most of their high schools and neighborhoods don't have swim teams nor do most working class

neighborhood schools. Mine didn't, and it was very much a white working class/middle class high school.

How many high schools do you know have swim teams?

[msongs]

18. cultural and social and economic reasons

socio-economic, lack of opportunity, cultural sports biases, preference for ball sports in the community, not wanting to wear speedos (dont laugh, for some its true - among guys of all races), besides water polo is way tougher than football lol

msongs

[XemaSab]

25. Good answer!

Thanks! :D

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Most will point out that there IS a black swimmer on the US team

I suspect few will mention that swimming and swim training are very expensive pasttimes, so there are structural barriers to entry. In order to produce Olympic athletes for a sport, you have to have huge masses of people engaging in that sport from a very young age, so that selections can be made from a substantial population. You simply don't have that huge population to select from for African Americans, largely due to structural issues of access. Yes, cities provide pools, but not free swim Olympic pools. The same can be said of hickey, another very expensive sport that requires access to private facilities.

By the way, the African American on the US swim team is deeply involved in water/swimming education for black children. Here's the Center for Disease Control's take on why the drowning rate for black children age 5-14 is 3.2 times that of white children in the same age group:

"Minorities:

* Between 2000 and 2005, the fatal unintentional drowning rate for African Americans across all ages was 1.3 times that of whites. For American Indians and Alaskan Natives, this rate was 1.8 times that of whites.1
* Rates of fatal drowning are notably higher among these populations in certain age groups. The fatal drowning rate of African American children ages 5 to 14 is 3.2 times that of white children in the same age range. For American Indian and Alaskan Native children, the fatal drowning rate is 2.4 times higher than for white children.1
* Factors such as the physical environment (e.g., access to swimming pools) and a combination of social and cultural issues (e.g., valuing swimming skills and choosing recreational water-related activities) may contribute to the racial differences in drowning rates. If minorities participate less in water-related activities than whites, their drowning rates (per exposure) may be higher than currently reported.5 "

http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/drown.htm

[XemaSab]

26. Since when is hickey a sport?

:P

No, but really, I was aware of the high drowning rate, but not some of the factors behind it.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. Since 7th grade, dawg!

:-)

[underpants]

31. Pretty much the same reason there are so few black pro baseball players

only islanders and white kids in the 'burbs play baseball these days


IMHO baseball IS boring and it takes quite a lot of resources to play a game

[Balbus]

41. Have you watched any baseball since 1945?

[INDIA]

49. No, he's right. There was a swell of AA baseball players in the 70's -90's

but now there numbers have fallen. Baseball just isn't a popular sport in the AA community these days, as it has to compete with basketball football and track. A lot teams playing for historically black colleges are majority white!

[underpants]

69. Have you read the news in the last 4 months?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_7_62/ai_n27215044

[a la izquierda]

32. When I started competitively swimming

year round, it cost about $500 for indoor swimming. That was twenty years ago. This was to swim at the YMCA. That didn't include the few practice suits you needed, plus the assortment of competition suits (which ran about $50 a piece at the time) and all the other accessories. Then throw in summer club fees, which are not as exorbitant, but are fairly expensive.
If you swim for an aquatics club, which typically have much better coaches, multiply the $500 by 3, easily. Again, twenty years ago. My parents scraped a lot together because I liked it, but I knew there was no way I was swimming for an elite aquatics club. But the Y I swam for had good coaches and some great swimmers. It was just expensive as hell.

But, I have no other sport to compare it to. The only other sports I competed in were track and softball...

[Catch22Dem]

36. Jesus, try figure skating

You can rack up a thousand dollars a month EASILY in coaches fees and ice time, plus hundreds on skating dresses, 500+ on boots, 500+ on blades, EASY. To be an olympic-level skater, expect to spend 60K+ on skating per year.

[A HERETIC I AM]

44. There are many sports like that.

I would think there are damned few Olympic quality Skiers from the lower income demographics. Ditto Equestrians. You would be hard pressed to find a competitive Equestrian that didn't have large amounts of disposable income in the family. Same with Rowing, Kayaking, Sailing - virtually any sport that requires expensive equipment and/or venues in which to practice.

[XemaSab]

58. As far as skiing goes, I can see how a lot of black people just don't live in areas

with good skiing.

Africa? No. The Caribbean? No. The South? No. Urban California? No.

The only areas I can think of that a LOT of black people live that have skiing are the urban midwest and northeast, and even there, skiing is not a cheap sport. I've never been 'cause my family just couldn't afford it. :shrug:

Ditto for horseback riding.

But kayaking?

[A HERETIC I AM]

60. Fair enough. I stand corrected.

But just how many African Americans participate in the sport, much less make it to the Olympics?

[XemaSab]

63. Point more than taken

I just really couldn't resist that picture. :D

[rainbow4321]

50. Competitive volleyball was the same way..

when my daughter was on a club team. You had to pay JUST to try out for the team. Then once you made the team, there were soo many fee$. The club then had to travel to other cities in and out of state so you had gas, hotel rooms, eating out $, and every other expense that came with traveling.
One time, they traveled from Dallas to Houston two weekends in a row.
The team my kid was on didn't gel..they were good individual players but they could not come together and play as a team. The coach gave them a really strong "get your shit together, we look like crap, and BTW, don't foget your parents are paying out their asses for you to play on this team". The kids responded with attitude.
Within 2 weeks we were told that the coach was "stepping down". I was impressed with the coach who gave the girls the lecture because in this city's population most of the kids are spoiled brats and get away with anything, usually with the parents blessing.

I was not at all surprised she stepped down afterwards between the kids' brattiness/follow-up 'tude and perhaps parents being upset that their darlings' behavior was addressed...cuz you know they probably saw "other players" as being the problem and not their own kid.

[a la izquierda]

54. Swimming is a rich kids' sport, IMO.

I wasn't a rich kid by any stretch. I couldn't stand most of my teammates who never let me forget that I was from the "white trash" town. Funny thing was, the *really* rich kids swam on the aquatic club team, not the Y team.
I quit in high school, because I was just so tired of the strain it put on my body (getting up at 5am to practice, then school, then track/cross country practice). I knew I wasn't going to swim in college. And plus, I belonged on a surfboard in the ocean, not in the pool getting kicked in the face on a regular basis by teammates who hated me.

[ColbertWatcher]

66. Exactly. That's why soccer is the world's favorite sport.

To play soccer all you need is something to kick and two places you can call "goals".

With swimming, you need a pool.

To train for the Olympics in swimming, you need a pool--all year 'round.

City pools often close during part of the year.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[lonestarnot]

35. Takes money to be an olympian

[Beregond2]

37. I find it amazing this question is even being asked.

I haven't swum in many years, and the reason is entirely financial. Access to pools is simply too expensive, and I wouldn't get into the lakes and rivers around here for any money. Imagine how much worse it is for inner-city blacks! The expense of coaching on top of that? Forget about it. There is a reason why most of the American kids you see in the Olympics come from well-off backgrounds, with highly commited and supportive parents.

[XemaSab]

57. I'm talking about black people worldwide

And every high school I've seen has a pool. :shrug:

[noamnety]

67. really?

My high school didn't have one. The school I teach at doesn't have one.

Regardless of that, though - the people at the top of the sport probably didn't learn to swim after they got to a fancy high school with a pool. Phelps was swimming at the age of 7 according to wiki, and had national championships at the age of 10.

There are a whole lot of single moms in poverty - or even married parents in poverty - who don't have access to a pool or a coach for their elementary school kids, let alone the money and the time off work to be waltzing around the country so their 10 year olds can win medals. They are more worried about stuff like making rent or having enough food to put on the table at night.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Marr]

40. I don't know much about competitive swimming, but you do find differernt aptitudes

for different sports across various populations. You find subtle differences in physical characteristics like the preponderance of slow or fast twitch muscle fibers, breathing capacity, etc. Those subtle differences are highlighted when you're talking about world class athletes, where a tiny advantage can make the difference between winning and losing.

It's why you see so many distance running champions from east Africa and so many power lifting champions from eastern Europe. There are more people in their respective populations that have the natural genetic gifts to compete in those specific sports. No doubt you can find great distance runners in Eastern Europe and great power lifters in Kenya as well-- but not as many people with the born-in aptitude to really excel at it.

Again, I know nothing about competitive swimming, and frankly I expect this particular item is more about social dynamics-- but there you go.

[BrotherBuzz]

42. You can find the answer if you ask a patron in any Northern California redneck tavern

Something about Darwin, the survival of the fittest, and crocodiles. They will be happy to expand the theory to explain why 'they' are such wonderful runners, too.

[stanwyck]

43. Often, childen who show athletic skills are pushed towards

specific sports by adults -- parents and coaches. Usually, the goal is to secure a scholarship for college. or a spot on a professional team. The U.S. is hardly China or Romania when it comes to plucking 3 yr. olds out of nurseries and putting them into 24-7 regimens. But we do have parents and coaches early on making decisions for an athletically inclined child who isn't yet cognizant of what opportunities there are. My guess is that swimming is not a popular choice with parents and coaches who might favor the more visible sports of basketball and football. Many of the athletes we see competing in the Olympics in the "smaller" sports have a parent who participated in that same sport. They're 2nd or 3rd generation swimmers, gymnasts, or volleyball players -- and Mom or Dad is hovering on the sidelines. Adults are a key factor in the equation.

[alarimer]

46. Swimming is an expensive sport.

Like golf, it requires access to facilities and programs that exist mainly at the college level. Some of these swim clubs (like the one in Baltimore where Phelps swims) are in really, really rich communities. Not to mention the $500 suits they now wear, that only last a few swims.

Did anyone see the movie "Pride" with Terence Howard as a swim coach in Philadelphia? It was based on a true story and that swimming program still exists.

[Karenina]

47. Silly rabbit! EVERYONE KNOWS skin colour affects the ability to

swim, ride a horse, ice skate, ski AND play classical music!!!

[Bluebear]

48. Except if you're DR. Rice.

She is brilliant at all she attempts. :crazy:

[cherokeeprogressive]

51. How much money do professional swimmers make? n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

65. According to Wikip*dia: $5 million (link inside)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Phelps#Endorsements

[KharmaTrain]

53. Someone Asked A Similar Question About Black Baseball Players

This was on a sports message board...we were discussing how Senator Obama is having to play things cool like Jackie Robinson did when he first came into the majors...and one person commented on how the number of black baseball players has been on a decline for at least 40 years...peaking in the late 60's and early 70's.

We batted it around and one reason that came to mind was the change in Black America and the country in general. While racial walls still remain, there are more options open to blacks today...especially black athletes. Basketball became a ticket to a lot faster money and fame for many...and that with more career opportunities open for blacks, they don't need to rely on throwing a ball to "get out of the ghetto".

Back to baseball, it was pointed out that sports and music have always been the gateway for minorities to enter the American mainstream and from there to move and excel in other areas...Senator Obama and Governor Richardson being examples.

[catnhatnh]

55. Because Damn Few People Swim...

and many less competitively...Until the 60's almost no one, percentage- wise "swam". Swimming of ANY type required either a pool (and who had one in the fifties) or water access.In the early 70's I personally heard a reference to a commercial fisherman drowning and the comment "At least it was quick, He couldn't swim...God's mercy." Sure, these were older guys but until recently damn few people could swim well. I myself can swim well enough to do so holding a gas can, venting hose, funnel, and fill pipe key in a five foot swell while a 40' novi boat comes around during a storm...And I was raised a block from Long Island Sound.

Someday in the future, there may be an olympic sport based on moves made in zero gravity...the only way to gain proficiency will be to be an actual astronaut or to ride a "vomit comet" (airliner doing parabolic flights) and the pool of competitors will be small, and again the pool of possible athletes will be small and minorities underrepresented.

I think the answer has more to do with the maturation of the sport rather than either innate ability or discrimination.

Just my take...

[dysfunctional press]

59. that's a question best directed to jimmy the greek...not too many black hockey players either-

go figure.

[SoCalDem]

61. Elite swim clubs for very young kids are expensive

and kids need to be schlepped to the pool all the time for practices.. This is one reason why many underprivileged kids of any enthicity are often excluded from the upper ranks in many sports..

Sports that require coaches, rink time, pool time, expensive equipment are often out of reach financially.....


Our son played club soccer from age 8 all the way through his teens, and between the shoes & gear , travel and club fees, it cost us thousands every year...many families cannot afford competitive sports for their kids, no matter how talented they might be..

By the time they get to high school, it's often too late to "start a sport"..

[Freddie Stubbs]

62. Culture

Competitive swimming is not very big in African-American or black cultures.

[Skittles]

64. costs a lot of money to train in a pool year-round

[El Pinko]

68. I'll take the bait and say it - maybe different racial groups may actually tend to be...

...naturally better equipped for different sports (GASP!)

Sure, there are cultural reasons, financial reasons, a myriad of reasons, but black people (in general) do tend toward a somewhat different build from Caucasians, as do Asians and other ethnic groups.


I've noticed this year that there are hardly any whites left in the short-distance track events either. Such is life. Some ethnic groups may indeed have some advantage at some sports.

The problem is that saying so opens a whole other can of worms with bell curves and job aptitude and affirmative action and all that shit, so the rule has pretty much come to be that everyone knows that different races tend to have different physical and other traits, but we are never to talk about it.

But I think it's silly to let such generalizations bother us, because someone always comes along to shatter the expectation, whether it might be Yao Ming or Cullen Jones.

So anyway, let me be the one to say it, and be demonized and post-deleted and probably banned for saying it - blacks in general are probably not as physically well-suited to swimming as they are to other sports.

It's not a bad thing, and it's certainly not an absolute truth - just a generalization, but boy does it bug a lot of people here if anyone says it.

Which is why I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY ANSWER TO THIS POST. Whatever your answer to it may be, I respect your opinion on the matter, but just don't care to get into it. Feel free to call me whatever names you want or attribute whatever motives you want to me because of this post. There is not the lest bit of doubt in my mind that I am not a racist, but I will not participate in the lie that all races and ethnic groups are exactly the same physically, culturally, temperamentally or otherwise. We are all human and wonderful, but we are not identical.

have at it.

[Karenina]

74. Hit and run!

I was physically threatened as a child at Truxton Park after beating 3 paleskins in a race to the outer pier. The area had just recently been integrated and our LIFEGUARDS took their jobs seriously. My baby sis did a magnificent dive off the board. The lifeguard clapped. She came up sputtering. Mom FREAKED from the shore, "She CAN'T SWIM!" My other sister and I were like, Huh? Our dad had taught us but had since died. She'd missed it.

Lifeguard plucked her out, spent some with her, then supervised her subsequent dives. She made Harvard's diving team a decade later.

[TexasObserver]

70. The reasons are economics and culture.

Black people do not seek tans. That means black people often avoid the very leisure activities that whites seek out. The beach, the swimming pool - these are places many blacks never visit, partly cultural and partly economic.

Excellent swimmers come from environments where people have pools readily available all the time. Not dinky apartment pools, but big, fancy pools made for training. Blacks do not swim a lot. Again, part of that is economic, but part of it is cultural.

Obviously, I'm making general statements here, but ask any black person you know if they swim, and if so, how much. You won't find many who swim much at all.

Figuring out why black kids play basketball, not Lacrosse, is conducive of similar reasoning.

[cherokeeprogressive]

71. Multi-million dollar signing bonuses, multi-million dollar salaries...

Shoe and equipment endorsements...

Swimming and lacrosse just don't measure up like baseball, basketball, or football professionally speaking.

[erpowers]

72. Money

I contend you are at least slightly wrong about the reasons there are less black people into swimming than white people. I agree that it is an economic issue, but I think the main reason is money/economics. It is not that black people do not go to the beach because they do not seek a tan, or that black people do not swim because they do not have fancy pools. It really had to do with the perception among black families that it cost too much to teach a kid to swim. If your family is poor you most likely will not be seeking to give your kid swimming lessons. In addition, some people are too poor to go to the beach and swim. Sports like basketball, football, baseball, and running are so much easier for a black kid to take up. You really do not really need a coach to teach you how to shoot a basketball, run, or hit.

I am black and until recently I would go swimming fairly often. I would swim at least two time a week for about 30 minutes. I tried to do it mainly for fitness and yes I swam at a apartment pool. The biggest problem for me was the crowding of the pool, but I would just try to get to the pool when most people were not there. In a few weeks I will be try to get back to the pool and swim for about the same amount of time or more.

I think another reason there are so few black people in swimming is that amount of money that can be made in swimming versus other sports. If you are a black male you can make so much more money in basketball, football, or even baseball. I think a large amount of black males look at guys like Kobe and Lebron and see them making millions a year and being famous and those young guys want to be like Kobe and Lebron. With swimming it seems their is less money to be made and even Michael Phelps before this olympics was only mentioned every four years.