Human Rights Watch: Russia using cluster bombs in Georgia (not Ossetia)

[MH1]

(Tbilisi, August 15, 2008) – Human Rights Watch researchers have uncovered evidence that Russian aircraft dropped cluster bombs in populated areas in Georgia, killing at least 11 civilians and injuring dozens, Human Rights Watch said today. Human Rights Watch called upon Russia to immediately stop using cluster bombs, weapons so dangerous to civilians that more than 100 nations have agreed to ban their use.

“Cluster bombs are indiscriminate killers that most nations have agreed to outlaw,” said Marc Garlasco, senior military analyst at Human Rights Watch. “Russia’s use of this weapon is not only deadly to civilians, but also an insult to international efforts to avoid a global humanitarian disaster of the kind caused by landmines.”

Human Rights Watch said Russian aircraft dropped RBK-250 cluster bombs, each containing 30 PTAB 2.5M submunitions, on the town of Ruisi in the Kareli district of Georgia on August 12, 2008. Three civilians were killed and five wounded in the attack. On the same day, a cluster strike in the center of the town of Gori killed at least eight civilians and injured dozens, Human Rights Watch said. Dutch journalist Stan Storimans was among the dead. Israeli journalist Zadok Yehezkeli was seriously wounded and evacuated to Israel for treatment after surgery in Tbilisi. An armored vehicle from the Reuters news agency was perforated with shrapnel from the attack.

This is the first known use of cluster munitions since 2006, during Israel’s war with Hezbollah in Lebanon. Cluster munitions contain dozens or hundreds of smaller submunitions or bomblets. They cause unacceptable humanitarian harm in two ways. First, their broad-area effect kills and injures civilians indiscriminately during strikes. Second, many submunitions do not explode, becoming de facto landmines that cause civilian casualties for months or years to come. In May 2008, 107 nations agreed to a total ban on cluster munitions, but Russia did not participate in the talks.

More at link:
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/08/14/georgi19625.htm

Should I cross Human Rights Watch off my list of credible organizations now?

[MrMonk]

1. Human Rights Watch is in the pay of the PNAC

and it's not the Russians who are dropping cluster bombs, it's a false flag operation by the Estonian air force, and if it IS the Russians, then they're not cluster bombs, they're chocolates.

Seriously, the Russia/Georgia DU war has been won by people who don't care what the Russians are actually doing in Georgia. Putin has been declared a hero for challenging the US and NATO, and anyone who is skeptical about his virtue has been declared a Bush/PNAC lackey. Game over. Context broken.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Get ready to be called all sorts of insults

But yeah, you're right. Plenty of people around here are showing just how narrow-minded they are.

[Hippo_Tron]

6. It was like this during the Ukraine elections in 2004 as well

I understand the disagreement somewhat when it's the US at odds with a left wing government. But Russia's current government is fairly right wing and it is one step away from dictatorship.

[LynnTheDem]

10. And Georgia's ethnic cleansing in S. Ossetia is a good thing.

And we should support it!


The "media" continues to fool even DUers.

[AllentownJake]

13. As opposed to the ethnic clensing in Chechnya

50,000 civilians dead...not displaced dead.

All the seperatist leaders dead. Not in hiding in another country dead.

People being tortured on a daily basis to death to turn in potential separist. Not waterboarding full scale torture to the supposed separitist dies.

Russia the great defender of Human Rights :sarcasm:

[MH1]

18. Actually who said that?

1) who said that "ethnic cleansing in S. Ossetia is a good thing"? I know HRW (the source of my post) didn't say that, and neither did I.

2) Can you provide a credible link to evidence of ethnic cleansing in S. Ossetia by Georgians? Actually, according to a story on Morning Edition on NPR yesterday, the ethnic cleansing has been happening in S. Ossetia since the Russians took over - ethnic cleansing of ethnic Georgians.

3) "The "media" continues to fool even DUers. " - so you are saying to my question in the o.p., we should no longer consider Human Rights Watch a credible source? They are in the pocket of the neocons?


edited to clarify the alleged cleansers / cleansees in #2

[fujiyama]

11. Mmmmm chocolate bombs.

Well said. This thing has revealed how utterly inconsistent and full of shit some are. I have come to the conclusion that human rights, genocide, and serious issues are a game to many on the left, just as they are to the neocons.

I don't remember too many defending Israel's actions in Lebanon a few years ago, and rightfully so. I'm appalled by the praise and adulation of Putin. Some people are just fucking stupid.

[MH1]

19. Heh, you had me going with your subject line.

Actually I am fully expecting someone to make that claim, or something very similar.

I have noticed with incredulity that there seem to be a LARGE number of DUers who, like you say, care nothing about what the Russians and separatists are doing in Georgia. Apparently atrocities only matter if they are carried out by Bushies or this country. Expect similar observations about "the American left" to now appear in the right-wing media. Well okay, they've already been saying that. It's too bad so many on the left are giving them so much evidence now.

What kind of naivete does it take to think a situation like this is black-and-white, good guys vs bad guys? But that seems to be the mindset at work here. "Ooh, they're thwarting Bush, so they are good guys and can do no wrong!" Damn, we are in deep shit in this country if that's the mindset of the progressive movement - it's just idiot conservatism with the hats reversed.

I don't think the Georgian government did a right thing here but I think the casualties and atrocities of the Russian invasion of Georgia should be recognized. I also think that Russia has been undermining Georgian rule of Ossetia for some time. Many here seem to think that's a good and honorable thing just because ethnic Ossetians were in the majority (never mind the third or so of the population that was ethnic Georgian - they don't matter at all to those defending Russia's actions).

[Odin2005]

34. The minds of some people here are no different then the minds of the Freepers, sadly.

Black-and-White thinking ("if they hate Bush they must be good"), conspiracy-nuttiness-based circular reasoning ("Western Propaganda!!!"), and similar nonsense is annoying.

[DailyGrind51]

30. Got a link? Those are some hefty accusations!

[Odin2005]

32. I hope that is satire...

Every time I see the term "false flag operation" my conspiracy nut detector goes off. I am tired of all the posters that everything bad is part of one big neo-con conspiracy.

[kiva]

3. Thanks for posting this. And here's an extra flack jacket, you'll need it.

[MH1]

20. Thanks.

Actually I am gratified by the several intelligent posts that have been made on this thread.

The situation between Russia and the US (with Bush as CinC, oh my freakin' god) is like a gang war, only with nukes. And normal people who just want to live in peace, are caught in the middle.

[bemildred]

4. U.S. Tries but Fails to Scuttle Cluster Bomb Treaty

Well over half the world's governments agreed last week to "consign cluster munitions to the trash bin of history," in the words of the Cluster Munition Coalition, the civil society collective that delivered the treaty. Meeting in Dublin, Ireland, representatives of 110 governments completed negotiations on a new international treaty that bans the production, use, and export of all existing cluster munitions and commits them to destroy their stockpiles within eight years.

The U.S. government did not attend the negotiations, instead arm-twisting its allies to weaken the treaty. In the end, though, all other major NATO countries joined with the majority in agreeing to get rid of these weapons, which are designed to kill or maim every living thing in an area as large as two football fields. The vast majority of victims of cluster bombs have been civilians.

Stephen Mull, Acting Assistant Secretary for Political-Military Affairs, held a press briefing in the midst of the negotiations to explain why the U.S. government was not at the table. His explanations were creative.

If the convention passes in its current form, any U.S. military ship would be technically not able to get involved in a peacekeeping operation, in providing disaster relief or humanitarian assistance as we're doing right now in the aftermath of the earthquake in China and the typhoon in Burma, and not to mention everything that we did in Southeast Asia after the tsunami in December of 2004. And that's because most U.S. military units have in their inventory these kinds of weapons.

A reporter astutely asked Mull why it wasn't possible to "just take the munitions off your ships?" Mull responded:

Well, we -- the number one priority of any country's military is to defend its country. And if our military planners are determined that these are necessary to protect American interests, we -- it's not something that we're going to unilaterally get rid of.

http://www.alternet.org/audits/93756/u.s._tries_but_fails_to_scuttle_cluster_bomb_treaty/

[MrMonk]

7. Well, heck, I guess that justifies the Russians.

[Selatius]

12. I guess the point is don't expect the US gov't to come out and support HRW on this point.

The US government is in no position to criticize Russia for doing something the US does, especially given the body count in Iraq. The criticism, then, will be trapped in the realm of NGOs until the US itself abolishes these munitions, unfortunately.

[MH1]

23. When has hypocrisy ever stopped the Bushies? nt

[bemildred]

25. I support the ban on cluster bombs. Do you?

It seemed relevant to me to point out that my government likes cluster bombs. This is a thread about cluster bombs.

[MH1]

27. I definitely do. Do you agree that Russia is also wrong to use them?

If one side uses cluster bombs, does that make it okay for the other side to use them? (I haven't found any claims that Georgia has used them, but that seems likely to be the direction this goes next.)

[bemildred]

28. It is absolutely wrong (and foolish) for anybody to use them.

The facts between Georgia and Russia I consider to be in doubt still. However, cluster bombs being what they are, I expect in due course it will become clear enough who did or did not use them.

[MH1]

29. Thank you, excellent response.

:thumbsup:

[bemildred]

31. My pleasure. FWIW, I support HRW too, however, they rightly err on the side of complaining

as opposed to dissembling, so I don't always equate what they say with statements of fact. However, I am more than happy to see Russia required to explain and justify their actions, same as anybody else, and if HRW serves to do that, that is good.

[Junkdrawer]

5. Don't you hate it when the Russians act as bad as Israelis?

I know I do.

[MH1]

21. I hate it when any country behaves with cruelty and greed, with no interest in peace or compassion.

That covers a lot of territory in the world right now.

[Junkdrawer]

35. Indeed. The US/British/Saudi Oil Pushers vs. The Russian Oil Pushers...

Expect a lot of drive-by shootings followed by shaky truces and understood territories followed by drive-by shootings in attempts to expand territories.

[MH1]

36. "Drive-by shootings" with very big guns.

By people with nukes. Who have about as much sense as the average gangster. (Probably less, in Bush's case; Putin seems like he is actually rather crafty.)

Not a comforting thought.

[Junkdrawer]

37. Scares the willies out of me.

One wonders why our capos feel they can muscle in on the Caspian territory, but I guess power does corrupt. Either you control all of the oil or none of it.

[MH1]

38. Yep, me too. eom

[ConsAreLiars]

8. What Lamers. They'll never become a true Democracy and Bastion of Freedom with pathetic numbers

like that. They should have learned something about how True Democracies, Genuine Humanitarians, and Real Defenders of Human Rights use cluster bombs from NATO in Kosovo, if not from Israel's inspiring example.

From: http://www.landmineaction.org/resources/Cluster%20Munitions%20in%20Kosovo.pdf

This report provides a detailed analysis of the use of cluster munitions in Kosovo, the unexploded ordnance (UXO)
contamination that resulted and the civilian casualties that were caused. It draws upon three sources of primary data:

 NATO data provided to UNMIK on bombing missions in Operation Allied Force;
 An analysis of cluster munition clearance records contained in the Kosovo Information Management System for
Mine Action (IMSMA);
 The UN database of landmine and ordnance casualties.

The report also provides a structured analysis of key secondary sources.

The report uses these data sets to examine the claims and counterclaims of humanitarian organisations and of user
governments. It also looks at how key governments responded to lessons learned from cluster munition use and
impact in Kosovo.

The analysis suggests that cluster munitions performed poorly in a role that had limited strategic significance for
the outcome of the conflict. Furthermore, they probably resulted in more than 227 non-combatant deaths and injuries
within Kosovo alone, drained directly more than $30 million in post-conflict humanitarian funds, and were a focus of
public dissatisfaction with the conduct of Operation Allied Force. Cluster munition contamination remains in the
province more than seven years after the bombing.

Targeting:
More than 234,123 submunitions were dropped across Kosovo. Political and military officials presented the use of
cluster munitions as being against a narrow set of targets only in very specific circumstances. NATO bombing records
suggest that they were a weapon of convenience used against a wide range of static and mobile targets.

More than 8,345 submunitions were dumped without being aimed at any clear target.

(edit to add a bit)

[LynnTheDem]

9. American-made cluster bombs?

[AllentownJake]

14. I guess I'm missing something

We do something it gives justification for other countries to do it and the same people who criticise America are the ones praising Russia?

[malaise]

15. Good question

Don't you just love the moral superiority that exists in the minds of people?
Where were the posts about the use of Depleted Uranium in Iraq. Where are the posts about the over one million dead Iraqis.

Ah fugg it - their god ordained Bush.

[AllentownJake]

16. This isn't an either or proposition

Sorry just because George W and Putin are having a pissing contest right now doesn't make one right and the other wrong. They both can be wrong.

[MH1]

17. Who are you talking about?

There have been scads of posts on DU about depleted uranium and the dead in Iraq.

I believe NO one has posted about Russian use of cluster bombs in Iraq.

Do you only condemn death and mutilation when you think it is caused by Bush?

And, who the HELL do you mean by "their" in "their god endorsed Bush"?

You sound awfully close to accusing me of being a troll or freeper. Please clarify. Thanks.

[malaise]

22. I made a general comment n/t

[MH1]

24. So who were the "people" with the "moral superiority" in their minds? HRW?

[MH1]

26. btw, here is the HRW page on Iraq.

http://hrw.org/doc?t=mideast&c=iraq

[DU GrovelBot]

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