Texas school district to allow teachers to carry guns...

[cynatnite]

HOUSTON (Reuters) - A Texas school district will let teachers bring guns to class this fall, the district's superintendent said on Friday, in what experts said appeared to be a first in the United States.

The board of the small rural Harrold Independent School District unanimously approved the plan and parents have not objected, said the district's superintendent, David Thweatt.

School experts backed Thweatt's claim that Harrold, a system of about 110 students 150 miles northwest of Fort Worth, may be the first to let teachers bring guns to the classroom.

Thweatt said it is a matter of safety.

"We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?" he said. "It's just common sense."

Teachers who wish to bring guns will have to be certified to carry a concealed handgun in Texas and get crisis training and permission from school officials, he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080815/ts_nm/texas_guns_dc

[Taverner]

1. Just as long as they don't use them, I'm down with this

[jobycom]

2. If they've got 'em, someone will use them.

[isentropic]

4. Who?...the jan - er I mean the Maintenance Engineer?

:shrug:

[jobycom]

7. Or a student, or the first person a teacher pulls one on...

[isentropic]

64. Well, there are armed security guards in a lot of schools. Is there an epidemic of

extra-large High School athletes grabbing their guns and wreaking havoc that I haven't heard about?

[Taverner]

5. Well, that's why they should change the law

Have your gun, sure

Use a gun, even in self defense, go to jail

[isentropic]

6. Jail for self-defense? I know you're being sardonic there but I don't get the point of it.

:shrug:

[Taverner]

13. Having the gun strapped to one's side should be effective alone

[tburnsten]

16. Why would just wearing a gun

be an effective way to stop a school shooter? That is what the policy is aimed at mitigating, a crazy who decides they are going to go out like that murdering bastard cho and dylan klebold, not so that teachers can break up fights between students.


I'm betting no one will hear about this school ever again, and there will be no incidents whatsoever. Did you all read the sentece where they state that there are 110 students, K-12, and that they are thirty minutes away from the nearest law enforcement?

[jobycom]

20. Uh-huh.

That's why being a cop is such a safe job. Or a soldier.

[Taverner]

29. If you are in a room of unarmed children, yes

[tburnsten]

31. Hey dude

The students aren't the reason the teachers will be able to carry guns at work. Well, technically it IS the students but not the way you have been thinking about it.

The teachers will be allowed to carry at work in the event that someone comes to the school with the intention of harming the students, not in case the students try walking out of detention. It isn't the day to day work of teaching that requires security in schools, it is the extremely rare but horribly catastrophic event that COULD happen that requires security. Clearly a school district with 110 students K-12 and no police presence at all for a half hour at the closest can't afford to just hire a full time security guard.



Or maybe they could just designate all teachers who satisfy the carry requirements as security guards. Problem solved.

[dems_rightnow]

50. You can't truly want..

.... jail time for self-defense. Right?

[cynatnite]

8. A teacher thought my daughter was talking during class and she threw an eraser at her...

looking back on that incident I now wonder...

I've seen teachers lose their cool and I've seen a few students I wouldn't turn my back on. These were in small town schools, too.

And they think guns are a good idea?

[tburnsten]

25. That's quite a breathless leap of logic

to assume that since a teacher, to regain control of the classroom, threw a soft, light, harmless chalkboard eraser at a student (big whoop, what is she a delicate paper-thin glass sculpture?) that teachers in general would just shoot a student for the hell of it.

[cynatnite]

38. throwing anything at a student shouldn't be tolerated...

and I didn't. She apologized for it, too.

I've seen a few teachers have temper tantrums worthy of five year olds.

I'm just one of these people who think that guns and schools are a very bad combination. Color me weird.

[tburnsten]

40. I think it's just a little over the top

to get too out of breath over an action like that one.

[cynatnite]

43. Most teachers are fine..

but after putting three kids through different school districts I've seen a few teachers who should in no way be entrusted with a loaded weapon in a classroom full of kids. That teacher was one of them. She was batshit crazy, IMO.

[tburnsten]

60. Yeah I've seen a few too

We had one shit her pants in class, it wasn't on purpose but she sneezed and it cleared her right out. She was so embarassed she used a paper towel to throw it in the trash and ran out.


The process involved in getting a carry permit is at least in my state about seven or eight pages of paperwork, with driminal penalties for lying on it. That alone should discourage many people from ever getting their permit, along with the background check itself. With the other training and specific permission they are asking for I think that school system is fairly well protected from approving any batty teachers from gaining approval.

[carlyhippy]

72. My 2nd grade teacher, no way would I have wanted that crazy old crow to carry heat in the class

she was always shushing and snapping her fingers at the kids, and if someone wasn't paying attention or talking or whatever, she would go off, yank the kid outta the seat and shake them, no kidding....needless to say, it was one of the quietest classrooms I was in.

This was during school corporal punishment days of the early 70's.

[Joe Fields]

250. I think the idea of schools becoming armed encampments is over the top.

In fact, it is a repulsive idea. We need less guns in our society, not more. And definitely no guns in schools.

[donco6]

81. I've been in public ed for 14 years.

You're not weird. It's the stupidest idea ever.

[isentropic]

65. It's not a leap in logic, it's a descent into full-blown shithouse-rat nutfuckery.

:eyes:

[TheFriendlyAnarchist]

151. Pink Pearls hurt.

It depends on the circumstances. One of my teachers has grabbed me by the collar and thrown me, but in the context it was appropriate.

[tburnsten]

153. Sometimes physical contact isn't a big deal

I think people in general in this day and age have a serious problem with just accepting responsibility and realizing that getting your feelings hurt because you were being a little jackoff is not a big deal. If the teacher isn't singling you out and hurting you just for the hell of it, sometimes physical contact is appropriate. If one large, brawny high-school student is beating on another student and won't respond to the initial verbal warnings, is it wrong of a teacher to drill him in the mouth? Absolutely not. The target of his aggression could be seriously and even permanently injured by his beating, so in context, an adult teacher knocking the young man in the head is well worth it. How else would you stop a fight like that?

It is very similiar to the way people get all huffed up when a teacher hurts a student's feelings because the student doesn't feel like the teacher should be allowed to tell them they aren't performing up to their ability levels.

[spin]

55. When I was in the military and an electronics instrutor...

I used to throw an blackboard eraser at any student who fell asleep. I was very accurate and the class stayed awake after one demonstration.

One of my fellow instructors had a student who just couldn't stay awake. He informed the class that he was going to turn the lights off and continue teaching and asked the student to the rear of the sleeper to tap him on the shoulder. The sleeper woke up in total darkness as there were no windows in the classroom. He believed he had went blind. The technique proved effective in curing his sleep problem.

Electronics is a boring subject.

[TexasObserver]

83. They pulled the chair out from under my classmates in military electronics

1968
Biloxi, Mississippi

Classes started at 6 AM. Someone often fell asleep in that first class of the day. Different instructors had different methods. One particularly mean old TSgt. would tip toe up to the offending soldier, grab his desk, and quickly swing it out to the side. The soldier would drop straight to the floor, landing hard on his butt. That was an abrupt wake up.

Others would throw the eraser, as you mentioned. Yet another had a heavy duty yard stick he would slap down with great force on the desk of the sleeping soldier. That would sometimes cause the soldier to damn near have a heart attack.

I can remember clearly them saying "maybe you've heard it said that you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink; well, we in the Air Force believe if you hold that horse's head under water long enough, he'll drink!"

Biloxi Blues.

[spin]

92. I also used the yard stick approach...

nstructors had wooden pointers which we used to smack the desk of the sleeping "greenie". (The term instructors used to describe students as students wore fatigues and instructors wore blues or 505's.) It would wake the entire class up. The idea of pulling a chair out from under a student could have caused injury. I never did anything like that.

We weren't always assholes. We used to pass out "federal aid" during tests. If we wandered by a student who we could tell was struggling over a question on the multiple guess tests we used, we would ask him "Can't you C the answer?"

But if you remember the tests there were always a couple of misleading questions that most students would fail to answer "correctly". If too many students scored high on the test, the instructors would have to come up with different, more difficult questions. Making up new questions was a pain in the ass. I did learn a lot about how to pass a test. Sometimes I would take a test in a different field of electronics that I wasn't familiar with and often I would pass it. The longest answer is usually the correct one. Any answer that contains always or never is usually wrong. If unable to determine the correct answer chose C. etc. etc.

Every instructor had a technique he would use to get the students to realize that the info he was passing along would be on the test. Some would tap their pointer on the podium, some would scratch their nose. The instructors called this "giving a TQ (test question). Most students picked up on this rather quickly. One of my friends had a habit of TQing questions that weren't on the test.

Since you mentioned "Biloxi Blues", I assume you spent some time at Kessler AFB which is where I taught during the Vietnam era. I was reassigned in 1967 and became a flight line technician at Otis AFB in Massachusetts. Another great job, but that's another story.

Being an instructor was great duty. I still have my "flying ice cream cone pin". (The Instructor pin not the Master Instructor pin.)

[TexasObserver]

98. I arrived there mid summer 1968, KAFB

Left in April, 1969 and went directly to NORAD. Sweet duty.

Then to Taipei. More sweet duty with some TDY to the war zone.

Then to NASA, south of Houston. More sweet duty.

I led a charmed life. Maybe because I aced all my tests, scored straight nines on my performance reviews, and was always gung ho and good at what I did.

Those were good years.

[2KS2KHonda]

104. I was there in 68 when the downtown part of Peterson was still called Ent.

Worked for Gen. Egan via Col. Melendez in all 3 places. I wasn't all that gung ho but I taught a few of the guys how to do some fun tricks in their T-39s.
:D
edit: I meant CO Springs...my times at Keesler were way earlier. :-)

[TexasObserver]

115. Ent was downtown. Pete Field was out east of town. Cheyenne Mt. was south of town.

NORAD was in Cheyenne Mt. We entered the grounds directly across from Fort Carson, which is on the east side of the interstate highway. The road winds up the mountain to the NORAD complex.

Every week there would be a staff meeting at the mountain, and each of the 33 general stationed there would be driven up there by their aide, in a USAF issue blue car. They would park them inside the mountain, and be lined up, inside the tunnel, which we called "the Bat Cave."

It was great duty. I had top secret with crypto access clearances.

I loved that town and my assignment. Made Buck Sgt there and got shipped ASAP to another underground facility on the other side of the world. I always worked in a huge vault wherever I worked - no windows, no daylight, ever.

[2KS2KHonda]

161. My boss refused to ride in those blue cars, he had a cherry 63 Impala convertible

that was actually 'cherry' red! He would give his aide the day off and have me pick him up in his Chevy to go to those meetings (and to Broken Arrow practices...those were fun too) and also to the dog track on weekend nights where he always drank far too much. :D

[peace13]

3. Hope the kids don't strong arm the teacher and win.

That would be a real mess.

[jobycom]

10. Can you imagine how much of a temptation that will be to a kid in Texas?

Not to strong-arm the teacher, but just knowing it's there. Word will get around, someone will figure out where it is, and from there it will be a challenge to see who can do what to or with it.

[tburnsten]

66. Is that a serious problem in your area?

[jobycom]

75. Yes.

And it is in your area, whether you allow yourself to see it or not.

[tburnsten]

78. Sorry fellow

but you are wrong. I have never been to a place (even considering the character education boarding school I went to) where any students would attack faculty. Didn't happen. And I have gone to a 98 student K-12 school before, I highly doubt you have ever been in an environment like that. It isn't the same as a typical big school system, by any stretch of the imagination. Sorry but maybe you need to accept that your first impression was way off.

[tomg]

9. "It's just common sense."

What are they insane?

on edit: I am a teacher. My wife is a teacher. Too many of my relatives to mention are teachers.

[jobycom]

11. I'm starting to get sick of "common sense." We need some "above average sense."

Some "uncommon sense." Common sense is what keeps getting us in trouble.

[tomg]

19. If their idea of "common sense"

is to let teachers carry guns, I couldn't agree more. Actually, I can't figure out if the members of that school board have bricks for brains or if they are out and out nuts.

[kestrel91316]

12. How long before some kid gets ahold of one unbeknownst to

the teacher and USES IT?

This isn't going to end well.......

[tburnsten]

15. How could a student

possibly 'get ahold of' a gun attached to a teacher without them knowing? Concealed carry is not a euphimism for "firearms distribution policy".

[jobycom]

21. Never been pick-pocketed?

[slackmaster]

23. You don't carry a concealed firearm in a pocket

That's what holsters are for.

[jobycom]

35. Same principle.

[benEzra]

105. Obviously you've never carried a gun in a holster. (n/t)

[spin]

56. I carry my J-frame S&W revolver in my front pants pocket...

in a Bianchi pocket holster. If things get a little dicey I can merely put my hand in my pocket on the revolver. I can draw it REAL fast. True the S&W 642 with plus P .38 special ammo is a mouse gun compared to something like a .45 auto, but I can drop it my pocket much faster than I can install a belt holster. It's very light and convenient and I don't leave home without it. The first rule of a gun fight is have a gun.

[TornadoTN]

135. I carry a Glock 39 (.45 G.A.P.) in both under-belt holster and pocket

I've got a 6 round magazine for the pocket and a 8/10 mag for under-belt. I've never been concerned with someone disarming me without my knowledge. There are some concerns with this case with teachers carrying firearms, but being disarmed while holstered just simply isn't one of them.

[tburnsten]

26. How do you pickpocket

a two pound chunk of steel, wood, and plastic? Especially with the level of retention all even moderately decent holsters have it would be about impossible for a student to do that.



And these kids are in backwoods texas, not boston. They probably all either have guns at home they can shoot or family/friends who do. Guns are not a mysterious power scepter to people who are around them regularly, unlike people who never see them except for the fleeting glimpses in police holsters and on the silverscreen.

[jobycom]

39. Very carefully.

And it would not be impossible for a student to do it. It would be a challenge, which would make it more enticing.

As for backwoods Texas, which is where I live, or have lived, the romance of the gun is stronger than in downtown Boston. I grew up in rural Mississippi, surrounded by guns. Everyone had several, including me. They were the leading cause of untimely deaths where I grew up. The image of them as a power-scepter doesn't diminish with exposure--if anything, most of the gun deaths around me were caused by just that. The power to win an argument, the power to shut up an enemy, the power to scare a bully, the power to make those around you flinch.

It's a dumb idea, but as long as it stays in one rural school three hours from me, I don't give a damn. Someone else's kid can die for this idiotic American fantasy.

[kestrel91316]

24. I can easily imagine a teacher removing a gun from his person for what he

thinks is a brief moment, and then getting distracted, and leaving it lying around.

Just because he's supposed to KEEP it on his person at all times doesn't mean he will. Humans make mistakes, last I noticed. How about on your planet?

[tburnsten]

27. In my planet lethal weapons

are expensive valuable items that the owner is accountable for and so when someone carries concealed, they leave their damn gun where it should be, secure in its holster until such time that they are going to get completely undressed, or if they are going to enter an area where firearms are prohibited.

[kestrel91316]

30. We might all wish it would be so, but I see far too many gun accidents

in this country due to simple carelessness to think there will be some magical web of protection over schools where everybody's packing.

[tburnsten]

32. How would you feel if they had hired full time armed security?

Because that is essentially what they have done. The difference is that such a small community can't afford to pay for full time armed security, so the idea is to cut costs while having a means to protect against a severely catastrophic event, a school shooter.

[kestrel91316]

48. I would prefer well-trained armed security staff to letting teachers carry weapons.

School shootings are extremely rare. More so than, say, fatal lightning strikes.

[spin]

62. Do you mean "rent a cops" or...

really well trained security. Most schools work on a limited budget so they might hire a security officer and pay him just above minimum wage.

Cops refer to many security people as "cop wannabees" Some of these people scare me far more than armed teachers. A significant percentage are poor shots and have little interest or money to practice their skill. I used to watch security guards qualify on the range I shot at. I decided that if I ever saw one pull his weapon, I would seek cover even if I was 30 feet behind him.

To be fair, I've also known many excellent security officers. The quality varies considerably.

[benEzra]

107. What if those well-trained armed security staff also happen to be teachers?

Look, the area can't even afford a single POLICE OFFICER, so how do you think they can swing several professional security guards even at minimum wage? And if they hire a single 22-year-old with six weeks gun experience for $8 an hour, how is that going to be safer for the students than allowing qualified, trained teachers to carry?

FWIW, most security guards have no more gun experience or training than the teachers in question here would, unless you think that the average security guard comes from Blackwater or something.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

138. You think they are going to arm everyone?

I think I see your problem. How many gun accidents do you see? I've worked dozens of shootings and multiple fatal gun shot wounds and not one has been an accident and all were done by people prohibited from possessing a firearm.

David

[jobycom]

41. So what will they do when they enter that area where firearms are prohibited?

You've got some Utopian view of the world. I've been around enough guns to know that people who crave them most are least likely to be responsible with them.

[tburnsten]

42. Since the places are generally courthouses and post offices

I would imagine they would do what everyone esle does, lock it in the trunk or in the car. Or in your town do teachers bring students on their errands with them?

[jobycom]

44. So what if they forget it in the trunk or car?

And drive back to school? People forget babies in their cars, you don't think they'll forget guns?

How about Jerry Lewis or Barry Switzer or Harry Connick Jr forgetting guns in their carry-on luggage at the airport?

[slackmaster]

47. The road to Hell is paved with special pleadings and "what if?"s

:argh:

[jobycom]

76. Exactly. What if all teachers are perfect? What if no teacher makes a human mistake?

So many "what ifs" in the scenarios of those who support such a gaddamned stupid idea.

[tburnsten]

117. All the stupid "what if's" I'm reading

are coming from people who think it is the most ridiculous idea they've heard this year. I don't see a single one of you offering anything of substance to the debate, just a steaming pile of "you are insane if you disagree with me" and lots of clear demonstrations of how little you understand carrying a gun.

[krispos42]

112. Then you're getting exactly what you want: unarmed teachers

I'd have thought you'd be happy.

[Irreverend IX]

54. So how do you explain...

The extremely low crime and arrest rates among concealed carry permit holders? A number of states publish data on the crime rates of CCW permit holders, and it's always a small fraction of the crime rate among the general population.

These silly hypothetical situations where a student "pickpockets" a gun from a teacher have no bearing on reality. There are lots of teachers who carry in Israeli schools, and I haven't heard of it happening there. How would a student intent on shooting up a school know which teachers are carrying, anyway? I don't think they'd be quick to volunteer that information.

[jobycom]

74. Rigged numbers

I've seen people here in Texas clearly guilty of murder not charged to protect the concealed carry law, under Bush and Perry.

As for Israel, there are many differences between there and here. How do you account for all civilized nations restricting guns and having insignificant violent crime rates compared to the US?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

139. Surely you have some links.

Are you under the impression that the US doesn't restrict guns? Are you aware that violent crimes are not always committed with a firearm? The math really isn't that hard, America is a violent nation for a wide variety of reasons, guns however are not one of them.

David

[tburnsten]

148. But Mr. Helmke said they are cheap and easily boughten!

He had such a straight face, how could I ignore him?

[donco6]

80. How would they know who's carrying?

What do you mean? Where are they supposed to hide it?

When was the last time you even saw a classroom and a teacher? What do you think they wear to work?

[tburnsten]

82. When was the last time you wore a pistol?

There are effective carry rigs and pistols for every single type of clothing with the exception of the wrestling singlet and bikini known to man. I totally conceal a subcompact Glock in shorts and a t-shirt, even athletic shorts are good enough for the light Glock. That pistol is considered a brick by some who carry and prefer other, smaller firearms. I know no teacher is going to work in a singlet or bikini, so what do YOU think teachers are wearing to work?

[Joe Fields]

88. You can argue until the cows come home, and you will never ever

convince me that it is a sane idea to allow teachers to carry guns at school.

[Joe Fields]

249. Would you really want your child going to an armed encampment every day?

What a way to become educated. But I wonder just what they would learn, other than the myth of the wild west lives on in a gun crazy world.

[tburnsten]

256. That explains the break in communication

since you view one to three highly qualified teachers having a concealed pistol on their person as an "armed encampment", no wonder we aren't appearing to be on the same wavelength.


Excuse me while I go out back to my "tropical paradise" :rofl:

[krispos42]

109. You'd notice if the 30 ounces of steel strapped to your hip vanished

A concealable handgun typically weighs between 16 and 32 ounces, or about 6-12 times that of your average cell phone.

And in case you haven't noticed, students don't seem to have any problem currently getting a gun to school and using it.

[Pithlet]

141. Guns have no business on school property.

Period. I can't believe anyone but an absolute rabid gun nut would support anything like this. All I have to do is remember the teacher that had a mental breakdown in class in 7th grade to know that this idea is utter insanity. No guns in schools. I would pull my kids from this school so fast their heads would spin.

[krispos42]

181. Interesting

You'd pull them from school in your car, presumably, in which they have a far greater chance of being killed or maimed in than by an angry teacher with a concealed pistol, lawfully carried or no.


And I'd also like to point out that us Democrats give BushCo (particularly Cheney) a rough time for his "1% Doctrine" approach to the world. Yet the fact that the odds of either a teacher needing to shoot somebody or a student stealing a teacher's gun are borderline astronomical is enough to get you vocal about this!

[Pithlet]

209. It sure got you vocal as well, didn't it?

And the car argument is tired. Don't forget bathtubs as well. You're not talking to an ooga booga "gungrabber", so save it.

Yes, the incidents are rare. Do you know why? Because schools don't arm their teachers as a rule. We increase that, and we increase those incidents. Because school shootings are so incredibly rare to begin with, why institute a policy that increases those odds? That makes absolutely no sense. The more teachers we arm, the more we increase the odds that those guns get used incorrectly. Odds call for it. (Bye the bye, just try to get more conceal and carry laws passed after those stories start to make the news. Some foresight might do some good for the guns rights movement now and then. I'd leave conceal and carry out of the schools even if my aims were solely guns rights motivated. All I'm saying.) And all to prevent the extremely rare school shooting, when there are other measures that make far more sense. It's just stupid all the way around.

[Swamp Rat]

14. This increases the chances students will have access to a gun while already on school grounds.

Will the teachers be trained in martial arts/self defense in order to prevent students from overpowering them to get to the guns?

Now that teachers will have guns in their classrooms, students who really want to cause trouble will be able to take it to the next level.

This is beyond stupid.

[Dogtown]

17. Insanity

"Recent school shootings in the United States have prompted some calls for school officials to allow students and teachers to carry legally concealed weapons into classrooms."


ARMED STUDENTS?


What's it going to take to demonstrate to these people that this is a really flawed idea?


Before the 2nd Amendment crowd break out the rope, I *know* the article is about armed teachers. Embedded in the article at link is the quote above. I point it out because of the lunacy that has reached Stage 1 of the quote.

[tburnsten]

18. What is wrong with armed

21+ year old ADULT college students who have the proper state licensing and have met all the background checks and training requirements that are a part of those?

College students here bub, not elemetary. Or are adult (21+ in every state I know of) students actually just a pack of raving irresponsible party animals?

[Dogtown]

22. Do you post anything

that isn't picking a nit?

Pester someone else. Bub.

[tburnsten]

28. "picking a nit"

Yep, pointing out that adult college students over the age of 21 are not the same as your generic "students-armed" tag is "picking a nit".


Do you ever post anything realistic, and when caught and called out, do you ever do anything but pretend it's irrelevant?

[peace13]

Just because someone can legally own or carry a gun...

doesn't mean that it ts a good idea.

[tburnsten]

36. Right

that sounds more like an opinion case against concealed carry at all, not like its an argument that makes denying adults who have the ability to carry everywhere else the right to continue carrying while they are at school.

You don't think it's a good idea for people to carry a gun just because they can, but what if a teacher or a couple of the adult students at virginia tech had been allowed to carry there? I think mr cho's rampage would have been substantially mitigated, and while he certainly still would have killed some people, the number of people would have been lower.

What is the downside of that situaiton again?

[peace13]

45. Down side is some pimple faced goof getting the gun from the teacher

and blowing his classmates brains out. Let him bring his own gun to school, that way they will have a chance of catching him at the door.

Don't go into mind reading because my original response was not an opinion case for CC. I'm not a gun nut but so far I have stayed out of the gun legislation arena. When the topic becomes school teachers carrying guns in schools then I choose to speak out.

[Irreverend IX]

53. What's with these dumb hypothetical scenarios?

There are lots of schools that are patrolled by an armed police officer, and I've never heard of those guys getting their guns taken from them by students. And don't tell me police are too tough or skilled to steal a gun from, most of them only practice shooting an hour or so each year. And if teachers at a school are permitted to carry, how would a student intent on stealing a gun know which ones are carrying? There are lots of schoolteachers who carry in Israel, and I've never heard of students stealing teachers' guns there. Why don't you come up with some actual incidents to back up your claims about the dangers of teachers carrying?

[donco6]

79. Hmmm

"Why don't you come up with some actual incidents to back up your claims about the dangers of teachers carrying?"

For the same reason you won't listen to the dozen or so teachers on this one thread telling you it's a stupid idea.

[tburnsten]

85. doesn't make them subject matter experts

Sorry but being a teacher doesn't mean you are the supreme source of knowledge relating to teaching and schools. ALL of the teachers who have responded here have stated that they wouldn't trust themselves with a gun in class. What I take from that is that they just aren't familiar with them. That's fine, not everyone has the same hobbies. But that doesn't mean that teachers who DO shoot and DO carry regularly and ARE comfortable with firearms are dangerous around children.

[YvonneCa]

113. That is one of the scariest...

...things I've ever heard.

[tburnsten]

118. Hoplophobe?

Why is that a scary statement? Nothing I said was remotely threatening, all I did was state that some people are both comfortable and proficient with firearms, and that people who spend their entire career working with and guiding young minds HAVE to be so trustworthy that if they happen to be carrying a gun, what is the difference? You would seriously trust your child to someone you wouldn't trust to wear a pistol?

[YvonneCa]

121. It just gets ...

...worse. :scared:

[tburnsten]

126. Never mind, precious little dialogue here

[Joe Fields]

90. Here's your "dumb" hypothetical situation: A lunatic goes into an Amish school

and blows away a dozen people.

So what makes you think it beyond the scope of possibility that a student would take a gun away from a teacher?

[tburnsten]

93. Glad you think so lowly of our teachers

to you a "lunatic" is on equal footing with a teacher who lives and works in that small community? Sorry but your stupid anecdote about that nutball shooting up the amish school is actually a fine example of why SOMEONE should be armed in a high-value target like a school, because they have been until very recently soft targets with a high concetration of victims and as such attract mass murderers like candy. Having staff on hand at the school able to effectively respond and stop the attack as quickly as possible only makes sense.

Don't let that get in the way of your sublimely emotional reaction to it though.

[Joe Fields]

94. You couldn't be more wrong.

Guns have absolutely no place in a school environment. It is total insanity to think otherwise. If you think differently then you are insane, no ifs, ands, or buts.

[donco6]

100. No kidding.

:thumbsup:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

143. So you think the school resource officers (cops) shouldn't be armed?

And you think the people who decided to placed armed police officers in the schools are insane? Just so we all understand.

David

[Joe Fields]

150. Armed police officers, in a school environment which has a history

extreme violent behavior is one thing. Arming teachers is something entirely different, and I would never be in favor of it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

154. But you wrote, "Guns have absolutely no place in a school environment."

So, some guns, sometimes do have a place in a school environment?

David

[Joe Fields]

158. Metal detectors...

If a school environment is so bad that there is the need for armed guards, then the school needs to be shut down. Guns definitely do not belong in the hands of teachers.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

170. You do realize that would shut down 100% of the schools in my county.

In a lot of states 100% of the schools in many counties.

David

[Joe Fields]

172. Hyperbole.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

177. You wrote, "Guns have absolutely no place in a school environment."

Then you said cops were different, then you said the schools needed to be shut down, now metal detectors are the answer. Get back to us when you actually have something constructive to suggest. I do like the way you move the bar when you realize your myopic view of the world is challenged with facts and reason. I'm sure no one else noticed though so don't worry about it.

David

[Joe Fields]

184. Guns have no business in a school environment. Sounds reasonable.

I haven't heard any valid arguments to the contrary. The issue at hand is arming teachers. In that context, guns have no business being in schools.

[tburnsten]

191. Really? I've heard a number of good arguments for it.

And nothing but seriously belittling comments about how incompetent teachers are. I also see lots of comments that an armed policeman would be quite acceptable, however an armed teacher, regardless of the level of training and skill with a firearm, is "insanity" and will certainly result in the unfortunate death of at least one student.

I don't see how that makes any sense. And if guns have no business in schools, why are you so fine with officers carrying openly in school? On top of that, what is with your fascination with metal detectors? Are you aware that a school shooter is not going to be the least bit concerned about a stupid alarm going off?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

192. That wasn't what you said earlier.

Earlier you said guns had no place in school, period. You also said schools that needed armed guards needed to be shut down. Those statements were very specific and made without qualification, it was those specific statements to which I was responding. If you want to put qualifications on your statements I'll be glad to address those. In fact I don't believe that just any concealed carry permit holder should be allowed to carry a gun in a school just because they are a teacher there. I have given a specific scenario in which I think it would be okay. My counties schools have police in them so I don't see a need for this in my county.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

179. In regards to your assertion.

All of the schools in my county have an armed school resource officer in every school and two in the bad schools. They are county Sheriff's Deputies who are assigned to the SRO jobs. I'm not sure what you find so hard to believe about that.

David

[Joe Fields]

185. You have just changed the argument.

You said metal detectors would shut down 100% of the schools in the country. That statement does no correlate with your follow up.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

189. Have you lost your mind?

You said schools that needed armed guards needed to be shut down. I responded by saying that would close all the schools in my county. You responded with one word Hyperbole. That statement asserted that I was somehow exaggerating a claim for effect. I responded by giving you a more specific example. Try reading to the right and down it may help you follow along.

David

[Joe Fields]

211. Man, get your freak on somewhere else.

Go to the target range and pretend you're shooting liberals or something. Personally, I smell freeper.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

214. It would be embarrassing to lose an argument that bad to a freeper.

Come on buddy don't sell yourself that short. It's okay you'll come back stronger.

David

[tburnsten]

221. When all else fails

Accuse them of being a liberal-hating freeper. You are really hitting hard today aren't you buddy?

[benEzra]

106. Ironic choice of examples. The guy who shot up the Amish school

didn't steal a gun from an armed teacher. An armed outsider targeted a small rural school with NO ONSITE SECURITY and had free reign with the helpless victims until some good guys with guns showed up after a 911 call. This is precisely the type of scenario the Texas school district appears to be worried about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish_school_shooting

Worse, the police responding to the Amish school shooting were on-scene in only six minutes. In the rural Texas district mentioned in the OP, the response time would be around thirty minutes. I'm not sure why you consider the Amish tragedy to an argument against arming qualified school staff to protect students from similar attacks.

Do you have a problem with uniformed security guards also, or do you just believe all teachers are hopelessly incompetent with firearms regardless of prior experience or level of training?

[Joe Fields]

108. You somehow missed the entire point of my post.

The reference was addressing the opinion that it would be a dumb scenario that a student would take a teacher's gun away from them.. I was just pointing out, in rebuttal that nothing was impossible, that no one would ever have considered it likely that a gunman would walk into an Amish school and kill several students.

To say that it is stupid to think that a student would take a gun away from a teacher, is, in itself a stupid statement.

[benEzra]

120. Impossible, of course not. At all likely with the retention training and discreet carry, no.

To this point, we have had ZERO school shootings resulting from students seizing guns from armed school security, even though the majority of current armed school staff nationwide don't even conceal the firearm.

In the same time frame, we have had more than a hundred students killed by people who brought in weapons from outside the school. In most of those cases, the armed outsiders continued shooting until good guys with guns showed up.

Your scenario is not impossible, but it is even less likely than the (already unlikely) scenario this policy is intended to guard against, IMO.

But agree or disagree with the policy as a rational solution to the present no-security-on-campus problem of this district, the level of outrageous hyperbole in the MSM and on this thread is ridiculous. Teachers shooting up their classes and planting guns on their victims? Please.

Teachers are neither less stable, less trainable, nor less competent than your typical 22-year-old, $8/hr security guard, MSM stereotyping to the contrary. :eyes:

[krispos42]

110. Well, thank god he didn't get the gun from the teacher then

'cuz if he had, why, then we'd have a sticky political mess on our hands, wouldn't we? Thank god the shooter supplied his own guns!

:sarcasm:

Besides, they're AMISH!!! They're pacifists! You could supply them with enough arms to invade a small nation and they wouldn't fire a shot!

[tburnsten]

140. Could you be a little more condescending?

I don't think I got the full effect of your statement, run it back one more time, but a little more ignorantly and with a little more arrogance. Is that possible? Could you write a post MORE insulting to teachers and young people? Or are you one of those types who believes that there is no such thing as a responsible person in the world?

[spin]

63. Remember the hero teacher...

JERUSALEM — A 76-year-old professor who survived the Holocaust was shot to death while saving his students from the Virginia Tech assailant, students said.
Liviu Librescu, an internationally respected aeronautics engineer who taught at Virginia Tech for 20 years, saved the lives of several students by barricading his classroom door before he was gunned down in the massacre, according to e-mail accounts sent by students to his wife.
"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," his son, Joe Librescu, said in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."
http://the-teacher.blogspot.com/2007/04/shaven-head-and-mouring-from-cambodia.html

If he would have had the training and a firearm, he could have stopped the killer cold. This was one brave man.

[Joe Fields]

95. You don't know that. Guns have no business in school, period.

[tburnsten]

96. Guns are inaminate objects

Guns have no place being fired at students and teachers in school. Beyond that, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever that a gun should be in or out of school. This district has their procedure down pat, with crisis management and hostile situation training required, ordinary state permit requirements, and individual permission must be granted to each teahcer who wants to carry. Really doesn't seem like they have any other requirements they could possibly lay out.

[Joe Fields]

99. That is insane logic. In fact, it can't even be called logic.

[spin]

103. Are you aware that civilian guns have stopped school massacres?

For example the Pearl Mississippi school shooting:

Vice Principal Joel Myrick held his Colt .45 point blank to the high school boy's head. Last week, he told me what it was like. "I said 'why are you shooting my kids?' He said it was because nobody liked him and everything seemed hopeless," Myrick said. "Then I asked him his name. He said 'you know me, Mr. Myrick. Remember? I gave you a discount on your pizza delivery last week."

The shooter was Luke Woodham. On that day in 1997, Woodham slit his mother's throat then grabbed a .30-30 lever action deer rifle. He packed the pockets of his trench coat with ammo and headed off to Pearl High School, in Pearl, Miss.

The moment Myrick heard shots, he ran to his truck. He unlocked the door, removed his gun from its case, removed a round of bullets from another case, loaded the gun and went looking for the killer. "I've always kept a gun in the truck just in case something like this ever happened," said Myrick, who has since become Principal of Corinth High School, Corinth, Miss.

Woodham knew cops would arrive before too long, so he was all business, no play. No talk of Jesus, just shooting and reloading, shooting and reloading. He shot until he heard sirens, and then ran to his car. His plan, authorities subsequently learned, was to drive to nearby Pearl Junior High School and shoot more kids before police could show up.

But Myrick foiled that plan. He saw the killer fleeing the campus and positioned himself to point a gun at the windshield. Woodham, seeing the gun pointed at his head, crashed the car. Myrick approached the killer and confronted him. "Here was this monster killing kids in my school, and the minute I put a gun to his head he was a kid again," Myrick said.
http://www.davekopel.com/2a/othwr/principal&gun.htm

[tburnsten]

131. But you don't KNOW that!!!!

:argh:

[spin]

133. Sometimes it's hard to have a logical discussion...

with people who are emotional.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

145. Please stop using history against emotional gut reactions.

It's just not fair.

David

[Joe Fields]

159. I've read a lot of your posts on the issue of guns, and I get the impression

that you won't be satisfied until everyone is able to walk around in public with a gun.

Sad that you feel that way. Once again, it is insane to suggest that teachers be allowed to carry guns in a school environment.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

168. Wrong impression.

It is possible to disagree without insulting people. I noticed you have changed your posts to now say it's insane that teachers be allowed to carry guns when earlier it was insane to have guns in school period. What about a former police Captain that was in charge of the SWAT team and has now decided to retire and teach high school? I personally think it would be okay if he carried a concealed firearm on his person, provided that he still qualify with the police department every year and receive annual firearms training. Maybe that seems insane to you but to me it seems perfectly rational and even a good idea with the history of school shootings around the country.

David

[Joe Fields]

173. Metal detectors, Dave...

metal detectors.

Freaking gun nuts...

:crazy:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

176. Resort to insults, it really makes you look bright.

The rational people who read this will not have the same reaction that you have. I've got no problem with metal detectors, and of course they are 100% infallible. No one is ever able to sneak guns by them or enter through an unchecked entrance. Maybe we should chain all of the exits and just have one small entrance and exit, after all schools rarely catch on fire.

David

[Joe Fields]

186. So now you speak for all rational people?

Dave, the more you argue for guns in schools and wherever else you think it's alright to have them, the nuttier you sound. You try painting me as irrational for taking a position against guns in schools? That is rich.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

187. If the shoe fits.

You haven't substantively responded to any of the posts you just continue to insult and react emotionally to an issue. We get it you are scared of guns, that's okay.

David

[Joe Fields]

218. All I did was call you a gun nut. Are you denying it?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

220. What's the definition?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

235. Still waiting on the definition of gun nut.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

245. Since you only feel the need to respond via private message and then block return mail.

I'll just answer you here. Yes I am denying that I am a gun nut since you won't provide me your definition, I'll go with mine and I don't fit the bill. It really is a shame that you are so narrow minded that you believe that everyone who disagrees with you about guns must be a criminally insane freeper. Anyhow take care of yourself.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

247. In parting I will have to say your actions leave me no other option than

to say that you sir are a coward. You respond to substantive posts with insults and denigration, then when defeated you fail to respond publicly and choose to do so by private message when you have private messages sent to you blocked. Your actions reveal your true character and your actions are cowardly.

David

[tburnsten]

257. I think that in a case like this

The right thing to do may very well include posting his private messages. If he will only reply to your public conversation with a private message, isn't that his way of asking you to post for him? Maybe his computer isn't working properly and he can only post PMs, not ordinary posts and he needs your help.

Do it up, let's see what he had to say.

[tburnsten]

180. do the metal detectors you have seen include

a robotic gun turret or a forcefield to physically prevent firearms or people with firearms from getting past them? Because if not, what the hell good would they be for the sitaution the school board is addressing? Last I knew mass murderers could care less about being written up for bringing a gun on school grounds.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

144. Many jurisdiction and their police chiefs feel differently.

Many school districts throughout the country have armed police officers in schools.

David

[YvonneCa]

164. Mine did...

...but that's a different issue than arming teachers. Which issue are you discussing today?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

166. I was responding to the several posts that said guns never belong in schools, period.

[Joe Fields]

174. I don't believe in it, but if they (guns) are to be on school premises,

they should only be carried by highly trained professional policemen.

If a school that my child had to attend felt the need for armed security, I would yank him out of that environment and homeschool him so quickly, his head would spin.

Fortunately for me, where my son went to school, the environment was completely different.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

178. Well good for you.

What about the poor people who can't drive their kids across town to a good school and can't stay home to school them because they are both working 60 hours a week to buy groceries and pay for gas? Screw them right they shouldn't be poor, that's a real nice attitude you appear to have about those less fortunate.

David

[Joe Fields]

212. I don't care how poor you are.

If you any kind of a parent, you would not subject your child to danger on a daily basis. If you care enough, then you would find a way to keep that from happening. But go ahead, Dave and send your kids off to an armed encampment if it makes you feel more secure.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

215. I'm not poor and I don't have any kids.

I do though work in the poorest neighborhoods in my city. Personally I believe that all the children should be offered the same protection not just the rich white ones. If you feel differently you really need to find a new message board.

David

[Joe Fields]

217. I've been here since 2003, Dave. You joined, when? Oh yeah, this year.

As for winning an argument, why don't you offer DUers a poll, and see how many agree with you. You're out in the cold on this one. Guns in schools, guns in churches, where else do you want to see them, Dave?

This is a progressive board. What are you so afraid of, Dave, that you must have guns everywhere?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

219. Baseless accusations, didn't expect anything else.

You really shouldn't assume, it does make an ass out of you. The only place I have guns is in my home. I don't carry a gun haven't in 15 years, when I did it was for the protection of people who were unable to defend themselves. No offense but after your comments about poor people and minorities I'll use another source on what a progressive is.

David

[Joe Fields]

89. The trouble is that very few states require proper training.

I've never cared much for the thought of untrained armed vigilantes looking to pull their pistol.

[tburnsten]

91. What do you know about states requirements?

Have you ever undergone the carry permit process in ANY state? Have you ever taken a basic marksmanship course of any type? Have you ever even fired a gun? Do you even know anyone with a carry permit?

I think you are reacting to your own prejudices and biases, I don't think the reality of the situation has any impact on your "feelings" at all.

[Joe Fields]

97. Think what you like. I have researched this subject.

I will admit to having a bias, but that doesn't mean I have no clue as to what I am talking about. I don't expect to change the minds of people such as yourself. I hold no illusions. I will say flatly that if you support teachers carrying firearms to school, then you are insane on this particular subject.

[StuffyJones]

216. We Already Have Cops With Guns at Schools, that is bad enough

I worry their gun will be taken away or misused or a mistake will happen. ...let alone every teacher.

[tburnsten]

223. Has it ever happened?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[fascisthunter]

58. I Think Grovel Needs a Gun Too

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. The only question is whether they see sense before a child gets shot to death, or after it.

Guns in schools is about as stupid an idea as I've heard.

[tburnsten]

37. If by "child" you mean 17 year old school shooter

than I don't see why they would change their policy at all. I'm quite sure it's already a pretty serious transgression for a student to carry a gun to school.

[YvonneCa]

69. Yes...

...me, too.

[tannybogus]

46. NWJ - No way Jose!

I taught school, and I know some teachers including myself that I wouldn't want anywhere near a gun.

You can snark all you want, but I can see some teacher cracking at some point and taking out a student

for talking too much. And don't tell me they can weed out all the teachers who shouldn't carry them.

A teacher is probably more likely to cap an administrator in actuality. There is too much stress in

schools now. I would leave a school that allowed that.:hide:

[Nikki Stone1]

49. Oh, this is wrong.

Really really wrong.

[fascisthunter]

59. oh... you did it now

some dork on the internet is gonna claim you are one of them gun grabbers....

[Nikki Stone1]

77. But it's a school!

I don't get it. I really don't. (I wouldn't want people with guns at the office either. What is this, Mad Max?)

[TexasObserver]

51. Communities of rural rightwingers are run by rural rightwingers!

A couple of years ago, one of the communities around there banned leasing to undocumented immigrants.

It's a stupid idea, the one about having teachers packing heat. All that does is introduce guns and ammo into the school. Students could take the gun away from Barney Fife any time they wanted to.

[tburnsten]

136. Yep, own guns, must be a rightwinger

:dunce:

[MJW]

52. this is a recipe for disaster

[fascisthunter]

57. Actually.. I Think We Should Pass Them out to Everybody

and get it over with.... let's hand out grenades too, once everyone has the same damn thing. We can up the ante from there.... stupid. Placing the means for one human to kill another is stupid and proven to end in tragedy. But repeating that same stupid thing is the definition of insanity. Gun violence WIL GO UP! NOBODY CAN PROVE THAT STATEMENT WRONG.

Congrats to the NRA and their psycho gun pushers.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

234. Your statement is wrong.

WIL is not a word. Furthermore you make no legal condition on your statement. So if you want to fix the errors and put the conditions in place then we can explore the veracity of your statement.

David

[spin]

61. School shootings have already been stopped by armed teachers or students...

Consider these two stories:

Appalachian Law School shooting:

COURIC: What happened next, Tracy, after you heard a professor say that Peter had a gun?

Mr. BRIDGES: I went back to the classroom and told the students to get out, that there was a shooter in the building. We herded them out the–the back stairwell. At that time, me and Ted Besen went down the back stairwell, and my vehicle was parked in a parking spot between the shooter and the back stairwell. We seen the shooter, started to approach him, stopped at my vehicle, and got out my handgun, and started to approach Peter. At that time, Peter throwed up his hands and throwed his weapon down. Ted was first person to have contact with Peter, and Peter hit him one time in the face. So there was a little bit of a struggle there. After that, Ted pushed him back, me, Ted and another student, Todd Ross, took Peter to the ground and subdued him until we had some handcuffs to put him in.
http://timlambert.org/guns/appalachian/nd/tackle/gun/222.html

Pearl Mississippi school shooting:

Woodham drove his mother's car to his high school. Wearing a long trenchcoat, he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he walked toward Lydia Dew and shot Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Both girls died. Pearl High School Band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing 5 feet from Dew when she was fatally shot. He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham while he was trying to drive off campus. The outraged educator demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?". Woodham replied "Life has wronged me, sir". Woodham had been planning to drive to the Pearl Middle School to continue killing; Myrick's intervention prevented this from happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

[Paladin]

67. They Should Have Implemented This Program In Private......

...instead of turning it into a bells&whistles publicity event. They're just asking for trouble; I pray to God they don't get it.....

[benEzra]

122. The MSM turned it into a bells and whistles publicity event, I suspect.

I can't imagine that the school would have wanted all the OH NOES!!!111 hysteria that the MSM has stirred up over their program.

[YvonneCa]

68. This is VERY BAD policy...

...and it is dangerous for both children and teachers. The article mentions some very good questions that need to be both asked and answered:

1. "What are the rules for use of force?" You are going to have adults with guns who have varied ideas about when to use force. Even the police have trouble with this and they do have rules...usually.

2. "Or how about weapons-retention training? Because they could go in to break up a fight in the cafeteria and lose their gun." Kids are smart...this news will become common knowledge among students. Some might even think it 'cool' to get a teacher to show a gun...like they are tough. That escalates any conflict...from an everyday squabble , to a life or death situation.


School board decisions require careful policy implementation...and in my experience (teacher here ) it rarely happens. It would be interesting to see how teachers feel about this new plan. I'd bet MANY are against it. IMO this has come as a direct result of all the fear-mongering of the last few years.

If I were a parent in that district, I would pull my children out immediately...and say why. Oppose this wrong policy. This makes their campus LESS SAFE.

[tburnsten]

70. Use of force

Sounds like they will use the same rules for use of deadly force every other situation does, meaning it is only acceptable if the situation they are responding to is a life-threatening situation already. Felony crimes are also ok to use deadly force or the threat of to stop, but I don't see many felonies happening in a 110 student K-12 school.

[tannybogus]

71. People are assuming that the teachers will use the guns in only the right cases.

Everybody sits back and imagines them only being pulled in a life-threatening situation. A Columbine is

an easy call in which to use them. However, what is life-threatening to one may not be to another. I

taught school, and I know some people who seem completely levelheaded who would probably snap under stress.

I'm not talking Columbine type stress either. I would resign if I saw some people packing.:hide:

[YvonneCa]

73. Me, too...

...and though it is not their fault, some people do not seem to understand the life of a teacher in a public school. Every minute is double or triple booked. That could lead to distraction about 'where is my gun?' like it does for 'where did I put those keys?' which could be dangerous with kids around.

[benEzra]

123. And that is different from a school security officer wearing a black uniform

instead of classroom attire, how?

[MattaLeao]

84. Don't Teachers Go Crazy Too?

If anyone thinks the profusion of guns keeps us safe, they had better recall that the Wild West was an exceedingly violent place. Gun availability only made brawls and dustups turn into massacres and murders. And the minute you own a gun your chance of dying a violent death goes through the roof.

Where the heck is the teacher going to keep this gun? How will they keep it out of the hands of the kids? Utter insanity.

Looks like this town has been taken over by the crowd from Hellbillies III.

[tburnsten]

86. "wild west" was a myth

Eastern cities were far more dangerous than the western frontier was. Murder was rampant on the eastern seaboard, while on the frontier, far from support, towns and communities had a vested interest against murders.

And where did you get your statistics about owning a gun drastically increasing your "chance" of dying a violent death? Are you including suicides? Those don't really reasonably qualify as a "violent death" sir.

[Joe Fields]

87. Pure insanity. But I'm not too surprised. It's Texas.

[tburnsten]

101. kick

[spin]

102. Massad Ayoob's recommendations on campus safety...

Massad Ayoob is well known as a writer and a firearms and self defense instructor.

We’ve seen from the collective Israeli, Peruvian, and Filipino experience that a program of arming teachers and other responsible adults on campus – adults who have volunteered for the program, and been expressly trained to handle it – has dramatically reduced mass murders in these institutional environments. In the Israeli model, the volunteers included parents and grandparents of students; teachers; and administrators and other school personnel.

Here in this country, we have the incident in Pearl, Mississippi where the high school vice principal managed to get his pistol from his truck in the parking lot, take the young mass-murderer at gunpoint, and stop the killings. We have the recent incident in Salt Lake City where only an off-duty cop with a pistol was able to pin down the mass murderer and stop the killing until police reinforcements could arrive. We have the recent incident in Colorado where an adult volunteer, a member of the congregation who had a CCW permit, interdicted and stopped a mass murder at her church. And we have the incident at the Appalachian Law School where two adult students, licensed to carry weapons, drew down on a mass murderer and captured him alive, interdicting his murder spree.
http://www.personaldefensesolutions.net/massadsurvey.htm

Perhaps the solution to the problem is a training course for volunteers tailored specifically for the school environment. The TSA has a program designed to train volunteer pilots in using firearms to defend their aircraft. A similar program would be designed to teach well qualified people how to react in a school massacre and how to use firearms effectively to stop the shooter or shooters if necessary.

These volunteers would be at least as well trained as police officers in handling their weapons and, of course, would have to pass an extensive background check and a psychological screening.

Front Sight Firearms Training Institute in Arizona is offering a free firearms course to Arizona teachers if the state allows concealed weapons in schools.

From the hundreds of testimonials from law enforcement officers who have
attended Front Sight Firearms Training Institute near Las Vegas, claiming it is
the best firearms training they have ever received, it appears Ignatius Piazza
can deliver on his promise to train Arizona teachers to levels that exceed
law enforcement standards. The fact that he will provide the firearms training
free should make the Millionaire Patriot's offer very hard for teachers,
schools districts or legislators to decline.
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS127007+05-Feb-2008+MW20080205

For anyone interested Front Sight's homepage is at:
http://www.frontsight.com/

[slackmaster]

111. I can't believe people are still blathering on about this

It's one tiny little school district out in Bum Phuk, Texas, for crying out loud.

[spin]

114. An honest question for those who oppose firearms in schools...

Do you opposed armed police officers in school?

I found an interesting news story from Toronto Canada. Canada has much stronger handgun laws than the U.S.

Contrary to comments made yesterday by the Toronto school board chair, police officers roaming the halls of Toronto’s high schools this fall will not only be uniformed, they’ll also be armed, Chief Bill Blair said today.
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article/235930206-armed-police-to-roam-toronto-high-schools

And some high schools in the U.S. have armed police officers.

Since 1992, at least 327 people have met violent ends on or near the campuses of American primary and secondary schools. These deaths, plus stories of bullying, gangs, assaults on teachers, and drug dealing in school corridors, have led to concern about the safety of children in school. Thousands of schools are now patrolled by armed, uniformed police officers (often called school resource officers, or SROs). Schools have metal detectors at their front doors, prohibitions against backpacks and gang-related fashions, and zero-tolerance policies that automatically suspend students for even joking about committing violence.
http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0902web/police.html

Now if you are not opposed to armed police in schools, I'll ask another question.

Since many small school districts don't have the funds to pay for police protection inside the school, would you oppose highly trained individuals with comprehensive background checks and psychological screening to carry and or have access to firearms in their school? I'm suggesting an extensive training course teaching these individuals how to respond to serious life and death situations involving a school shooter. It could be argued that the average concealed weapons permit holder has not received the training necessary to handle a school massacre.


I personally feel that laws requiring schools to be "gun free zones" is an attraction to some mentally disturbed individuals who view schools to be shooting galleries. Obviously something has to be done to discourage this. We live in a world where many young people and adults play "first person shooter games". The object of these games is to rack up a high score by killing as many people as possible before the player dies. While merely entertainment for many people, these games can lead a very few to act out their fantasy.

I have two grandchildren in high school in a very poor county in Florida. While it is unlikely, I do worry about some deranged individual running amok in their school. The school is isolated and miles from any police station. And when the local police or the sheriffs department would arrive at the school, I don't believe there would be any trained officers or any SWAT teams to handle the problem. For half of the last school year they did have an unarmed security guard at the perimeter gate to check people in and out. Apparently they ran out of funds to support this very minimum level of security.

I would feel my grandchildren would be safer if some teachers or administration carried or had access to weapons. I feel would they would be MUCH safer if these individuals had passed an intensive course in how to handle such a situation.

I often remember the Pear Mississippi school shooting in which a vice principal was able to stop the shooter:

Woodham drove his mother's car to his high school. Wearing a long trenchcoat, he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he walked toward Lydia Dew and shot Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Both girls died. Pearl High School Band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing 5 feet from Dew when she was fatally shot. He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham while he was trying to drive off campus. The outraged educator demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?". Woodham replied "Life has wronged me, sir". Woodham had been planning to drive to the Pearl Middle School to continue killing; Myrick's intervention prevented this from happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

[TexasObserver]

116. I'm fine with armed police officers in schools.

But arming teachers? Not crazy about that.

If it's a small community, the police are seldom stationed more than two minutes from the school.

I think the incidents of nuts getting a gun and killing innocent people are tragic, but they are always going to show up somewhere they won't meet official resistance. That means schools, churches in service, malls, or eating places. We have seen all sorts of attacks on people in those places. Schools are just one of the places they will show.

If Mr. Nut Job Intent on Killing learns schools are well armed, he'll wait and jump on a school bus. Or he'll go to some church, or the YMCA, or the old folks center, or the thrift store. It is impossible to stop a man with a gun who is intent on finding a group of unarmed targets.

[tburnsten]

119. If the level of training is the same

then what is the difference? Police officers who are competent with firearms almost all get the majority of their training and skills from practice on their own time and from voluntarily spending their own time and money to go to firearms classes.


And this is a small community, but the police are thirty minutes away. I don't know why people keep insisting on missing that.


Maximum feasible misunderstandings at work here.

[YvonneCa]

125. The difference is...

...the reality of the job of teaching, AND the role that a teacher plays.

1. Teachers are OVERLOADED while on the job...they do not need one more thing added. Especially something as dangerous as a firearm.

2. Teachers are involved in student discipline. It is supposed to be positive (carrots) and negative (stick). It is about teaching conflict resolution skills and responsibility to students. Adding a firearm changes that balance, because...unfortunately, students will know about the policy.


I have no problem with a person being designated as a security person...hired, the local police patrolling, or maybe even ONE administrator adding that to a job description...in the interest of student safety. But it is AGAINST the interest of student safety to let all teachers bring firearms to school.

(And I did get the point about the police being 30 minutes away...doesn't change anything, IMHO.)

[tburnsten]

127. Sorry but adding a couple pounds to their clothing

is hardly "one more thing" to think about. It's like stating that teachers shouldn't wear watches because the "reality of the job of teaching" doesn't allow for the poor overloaded teachers to have one more thing to think about.

Your points are sinking fast, might be time to jump ship.

[YvonneCa]

128. Not 'literally' overloaded...

...good grief! It becomes more and more obvious how little you really know about schools.

[tburnsten]

129. Clearly you missed my point

I know you weren't talking about physical weight, what I am saying is that adding a piece of metal to your wardrobe is not anything that will occupy your thoughts, or prevent you from doing any part of your job.

[YvonneCa]

130. I didn't miss your point...

...and I am going to bail here because it's obvious to me that we won't agree. You don't get my job...at all...and you seem incapable of even trying to.

1. Guns and watches are different. It's not adding metal to the wardrobe that adds to a teacher's job. Watches don't kill people. But if, as an overscheduled teacher, I also have to be the person responsible for a piece of metal that COULD kill or injure a student...that is too much to ask. It's too large a responsibility, because it is very likely to hurt a child I am responsible for.

2. This story http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS127007+05-Feb-2008+MW20080205 portrays this as "Teachers don't want to carry firearms at school because they don't feel confident." BS. This has nothing to do with confidence in teachers' abilities.

3. The folks that want firearms in schools have an agenda. They are trying to say it's necessary by using the 'fear' tactic Republicans always use...this time, the fear of another school shooting. I have worked in schools for 20+ years and attended them for 20+ more. Most are safe places. SAFE. Hear that? SAFE. The school shootings are outliers.

Teachers with guns will not make them safer. Period. It will, however, sell a lot of guns. It will, however, give publicity to the NRA. I'm not for that...You??

Have a great life!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

146. Why do you insist on misrepresenting the facts?

You wrote ,"But it is AGAINST the interest of student safety to let all teachers bring firearms to school."

No one has said anything about letting "all teachers" bring firearms to school.

David

[YvonneCa]

163. Probably not...

...worded clearly. Sorry. No intent to misrepresent facts.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

169. No worries, easy to do we've all done it.

Sorry to accuse you of malicious intent.

David

[YvonneCa]

171. ...

...me, malicious??? :7 ;)

[benEzra]

124. Police are thirty minutes away in this case. This is RURAL. (n/t)

[spin]

132. In Florida concealed weapons are allowed in churches...

malls and eating places, providing of course the individual who is carrying has a permit. The shooter faces the possibility that his rampage may be interrupted by some civilian with a weapon. Few people would target shoot if occasionally the targets would shoot back. If a few deer were armed and capable, only the stupid hunter would journey off into the woods to hunt.

Schools are gun free zones in Florida. Human predators realize this, therefore schools are potential targets. In other areas of the country without shall issue concealed carry permits the predator does indeed have more shooting galleries to chose from.

Some very good arguments have been made in this discussion on both sides. One of the best arguments for the "keep guns out of school" crowd is that classroom teachers have enough to deal with without having to worry about the lethal weapon they are carrying. No one is suggesting that all teachers carry weapons. Only those teachers who felt they would be capable of the responsibility would volunteer. My suggestion is that these volunteers would undergo a comprehensive program with requirements far beyond the concealed permit classes. This course would prepare them to handle violent confrontations in a school environment. The training received would insure that they are at least as capable of shooting, hand to hand combat and weapons retention as a police officer. Of course, they would be required to requalify on a regular basis.

And perhaps classroom teachers shouldn't have weapons, but limit them to school administrators or other school personnel. It was a vice principal who stopped the shooter in Pearl Mississippi from continuing his rampage.

Woodham drove his mother's car to his high school. Wearing a long trenchcoat, he made no attempt to hide his rifle. When he entered the school, he walked toward Lydia Dew and shot Dew and Christina Menefee, his former girlfriend. Both girls died. Pearl High School Band director, Jeff Cannon, was standing 5 feet from Dew when she was fatally shot. He went on to wound 7 others before Joel Myrick, the assistant principal, retrieved a .45 pistol from the glove compartment of his truck and subdued Woodham while he was trying to drive off campus. The outraged educator demanded "Why did you shoot my kids?". Woodham replied "Life has wronged me, sir". Woodham had been planning to drive to the Pearl Middle School to continue killing; Myrick's intervention prevented this from happening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Woodham

[tburnsten]

134. I think extra training would be a great idea

As well as carry re-qualifying more often than ordinary CC permit requirements, and obviously (to some anyway) teachers who are not already into shooting and gun-owners aren't going to try and get permission to carry without going through some pretty extensive training, or they will be laughed out of the office by the administrator in charge of approval. As far as classroom teachers go, I am not convinced that the "teachers" posting here saying woe is me teachers are so incredibly overstuffed right now they couldn't possibly be capable of handling a weapon in a time of crisis (as if they need to have the weapon in their hands all day no matter what and they won't be able to stop grading tests to respond to an attack) are actually onto anything. Plenty of people with stressful jobs carry weapons and they don't seem to suffer for it.

[spin]

142. Considering how well educated high school students are...

I suspect that teachers today must be spending a lot of time doing something else rather than teaching. Probably the solution to the education problem is merely to reduce the paperwork and bureaucratic bullshit teachers have to endure and let teachers teach.

If I were a teacher and a school shooting were to occur, my first responsibility would be the students in my classroom. If I didn't have a firearm, I'll tell the kids that if the shooter came through the door to start throwing books, book bags and desks at him. If I had a firearm I would tell them to take cover and hold their ears. I would also seek cover behind my desk with my weapon pointed at the door. If the shooter broke the door down and entered the room, I would have the advantage. If I was unsuccessful they could always start throwing stuff.

As a classroom teacher the class is my responsibility and I would be hesitant to leave the classroom to attempt to hunt the shooter down. An administrator or some other individual who was not a classroom teacher would be a better choice for this task. Probably a classroom teacher would only require minimal training and marksmanship skills. The person who would go looking for the shooter would definitely benefit from extensive training and a much higher degree of proficiency with his weapon. His training should be equal to or better than most police officers.

Fortunately, school shootings are a rare phenomena. Unfortunately it is more than likely that we will see more unless we do something. We do need to limit legal firearms ownership to responsible people who do not suffer from significant mental problems. Adults need to practice proper security measures to insure that their weapons don't fall into the hands of some mentally deranged teenager. This alone will probably not prevent all school shootings. I believe allowing access to responsible and trained school personnel would be a step in the right direction. Gun free zones are merely an attraction to predators.

[Joe Fields]

175. total. insanity.

[Pithlet]

149. I don't oppose that and here's the difference.

A cop is on the premises and his/her sole capacity is protection. He/she is using all of his/her expertise performing that task during the day. He/she isn't teaching. He/she has been specifically trained not just in firearm use, but in assessing criminal behavior and dangerous situations, and is focusing solely on that. He/she doesn't also have the added daily stress of dealing with the daily stresses and responsibilities of teaching all those students every day. That is a key difference.

My position is that of all the thousands of schools that operate daily in this country, day today, month to month, year to year, the actual odds that my child's school will suffer a catastrophic shooting incident are actually very minuscule. That's not to say it's a concern that should be disregarded. But I think there are plenty of ways to asses and deal with that risk without adding unnecessary risk. I don't see how adding guns daily to the mix, to people who's daily tasks do not solely comprise those of a cop, balance out that risk. Adding those guns to the mix add day to day risk. Proponent will just call that risk "What ifs". Well, those "What ifs", if they happen, mean dead kids. If the teacher that had to be escorted out of my 7th grade class by the police had had a gun on her that day, I might not be here typing this. If school systems around the country started arming teachers, *in addition* to these horrific shootings we'd start hearing horrible stories of teachers snapping, or kids getting hold of guns. Of the thousands of schools that operate on a daily basis, odds call for it.

It might just be one tiny community in Texas, but it's bad news if this the start of a trend. It's not worth it. It's simply not worth it.

[tburnsten]

152. Right, but the teachers aren't there for criminal activity

they are there to teach, and them carrying guns is a contigency plan for a school THAT CAN"T AFFORD TO HIRE SOMEONE ELSE. They aren't cops, they aren't there for law enforcement purposes, the one and only reason they are allowed to carry at school, and the one and only reason they would EVER remove their weapon from it's rightfully concealed position in a holster on their body is in response to an attack on the school, not for any other reason. Their jobs have not changed at all, nothing is different for them in the day to day humdrum of teaching, except that now they have an inconvenient and uncomfortable block of steel somewhere on their person, but if the school is ever attacked, they will be capable of protecting at the very least the children in the classrooms with them.

[Pithlet]

156. They also can't afford to add the risk

The odds that a school shooting will happen are still very small. They just don't happen that often. They make the news in a spectacular way, adding to parents fears, but they are still an extremely rare occurrence. If they feel the risk is high enough, they can find the budget for added security somehow. Schools arming teachers will only increase gun incidences in schools, and all for the off chance that it *might* prevent the rare school shooting. It's crazy. I'm not your gun grabber bogyman. Look, I'm pretty moderate on the issue of guns. I know how to handle a gun. I don't own a gun because I have kids, but I grew up around them among a family of hunters. I don't believe in outlawing them or anything, and I believe there are plenty of reasonable pro-gun arguments even if I don't agree with all of them. But, I'm sorry. Arming teachers is crackpottery pushed by an agenda exploiting the fear of parents. I'm a parent who wants my kids' schools safe. It's exactly why I'm very much opposed to this.

[YvonneCa]

167. "Arming teachers is crackpottery ...

... pushed by an agenda exploiting the fear of parents." Your words are EXCELLENT.

[tburnsten]

183. Not sure where that is coming from

What is the difference between a small number of teachers being armed and a school resource officer (that the school can't afford) being armed? PLease tell me, because no one to date has said why exactly the two approaches are any different.

[YvonneCa]

198. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3816336


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3805996


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3817494



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3818341


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3816500

[spin]

155. While you are correct when you say that school shootings...

are an anomaly, you never hear that when one happens. The anti-gun crowd goes into high gear and pushes for draconian gun laws that accomplish little if anything. Rare as they are, the chance that my grandchildren might be caught in one bothers me. I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive since any school shooting is a tragedy.

Perhaps one solution would be for the state to provide armed security for any school system that couldn't afford it.

[Pithlet]

157. That would be far preferable.

Armed security for at risk schools makes far more sense.

[tburnsten]

182. What is the difference?

Can anyone please explain to me, why having a few staff members who are trained and qualified to carry a weapon and also in crisis management and hostile situations is any different than having an armed school resource officer? And please refrain from using terms like "highly trained professionals", because the great majority of police officers do not enjoy shooting and only shoot during department mandated annual training (sometimes as little as thirty minutes a year) and qualification. That is pathetic, and anyone who shoots even somewhat regularly will be a far better shot than they are, anyone who regularly competes in IDPA/USPSA/IPSC action pistol competitions will be many orders of magnitude more competent with a firearm under stress than said officers.

[spin]

188. I've watched police officers shoot at my old range...

These were the ones interested enough to practice occasionally. Some were good, some were merely capable.

The range master had retired from city police dept and often said that he learned how to shoot when he took the range master job. He listened to the good shooters talk and asked questions.

Most civilians have little idea how easy the shooting requirements are for qualification. They assume shooting is ridiculously easy because they watch impossible shots all the time in movies and on TV.

So a armed school resource officer is far better than nothing but not by any great margin. A teacher with a concealed firearm might well be able to defend a locked classroom. The individual who chooses to hunt down the shooter in a school environment should have far better training. As you suggest he should have passed courses in crisis management and of course passed a rigorous shooting course with higher requirements than police qualification. This individual should have access to more accurate and effective weapons then merely a handgun. A handgun is a defensive weapon, not an offensive weapon. This person would not be a classroom teacher.

My main objective is to make schools safer. While many of the anti-gun crowd will state today that school shootings are so rare that solutions are not necessary, they will be livid and demand solutions tomorrow when one happens. Any school shooting is a tragedy and we need to take steps to prevent as many as we can. Certain areas of the country will have little or no problem with armed trained civilians in schools. Other areas will only accept armed police officers or school resource officers. Fine. At least schools won't be viewed as gun free zones by predators.

No child should ever be shot by some deranged or criminal individual especially while at school. Guns in responsible hands in school environments is probably the best solution.

[YvonneCa]

199. Circular...

...argument.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3823626

[YvonneCa]

165. Thank you for such a great post...

...on this subject. I agree.

[BreweryYardRat]

137. Oh, that's a real good idea.

I had several mentally unstable teachers in high school, none of whom would have been capable of bringing a gun to class for more than, say, a semester (two, tops) without eventually flying off the handle and shooting a student.

This is going to end with a dead kid or two.

[WeDidIt]

147. There's a disaster waiting to happen.

Watch for the day when some teacher goes off their nut and shoots up a classroom of kids.

[slackmaster]

190. You seem to have a very low opinion of teachers

Why is that?

[Lorien]

237. Or one day when a teacher leaves their gun in an unlocked drawer

or has it snatched off of them by an unruly student.

[tburnsten]

238. Concealed carry doesn't involve drawers

[ccharles000]

160. Thank God I don't live in Texas.

[NeedleCast]

162. This Will End Poorly

and I'm a strong supporter of 2nd amendment rights. Sooner or later though, this will end poorly, and the gun-grabbers will be overjoyed to have another talking point.

[tburnsten]

193. I am still waiting on a response

I am still waiting on ANYONE to tell me what the exact difference between two equally skilled and competent individuals carrying a gun while at work (school) is, just because one is a teacher and the other is a law enforcement officer. If they have the same skill level with firearms, have both taken crisis management training, hostile situation training as well, and are both legally certified to carry a firearm, what is the difference between a teacher carrying concealed at work and a cop carrying openly? What is the huge difference? WHy does being a teacher mean that you are crazy as a clam and incapable of basic responsibility, but some twenty two year old goof being paid ten dollars an hour to wear a pseudo-cop uniform and hang out at the school with an openly carried gun is a perfectly acceptable idea?



I am also 22, so I am not trying to bash on young men and women, just saying that a teacher with a career working in the school probably has more personal connections with their students and so presumably would be more personally invested in protecting their safety.

[tburnsten]

194. Still waiting...

[Pithlet]

195. Acutally, I did. Yesteday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3817494

[tburnsten]

196. Doesn't really explain why teachers are so incapable of

handling wearing a firearm while at work though. Good post, but it doesn't fully answer my question.

[Pithlet]

197. Actually, it does.

It just seems you don't want to accept it, for whatever reason. Teachers aren't cops. They don't handle guns in the same capacity on a day to day basis. Their training on handling criminal situations isn't the same. Their day to day duties aren't the same. They're teaching. Not policing. That is the difference. Cops and teachers aren't the same. You don't want to accept that there is a difference, but there is. Your question wasn't where or not a teacher is capable of handling a gun. Your question was whether or not there was a difference between having cops on the premise and having armed teachers on the premise. Teachers are there to teach. Not provide security. Teaching and security are both professions that require intense direction and attention. Distraction from either is a bad thing. If schools are under threat of of deadly force, they are in need of direct attention from security. Security that is giving its undivided attention. Arming teachers makes absolutely no sense, and only introduces added risk.

[YvonneCa]

203. Wow...that is SO true. n/t

[tburnsten]

222. They don't need to handle criminal situations

They only need to be able to effectively protect the room they are in, and the students immediately around them, and only during an actual murderous attack on the school. They are not and will not be taking over any of the duties of a police officer, nor should they. What I am reading from yourself and others is that you feel that police have an explicit duty to protect people. Well they don't according to the Supreme Court in the decision on the Castle Rock case, where they concluded that the police have no duty to protect any individual citizen. They do what they can, and try their hardest to take care of everyone, but at the end of the day, unless they were right there when the incident happened, all they do is take a report and maybe haul someone off to jail. They are the physical embodiment of the courts first and foremost, and carry pistols so they can protect themselves from attack while they are performing their duties. If they know they are going into a fight, they will without fail bring a long gun, either a shotgun or a carbine, not a puny and difficult handgun.

I do accept there is a difference between teachers and police officers, but the teachers here are not becoming cops, they are becoming armed last-resort security for the school. And a police officers day to day handling of guns involves putting on their holster and loading their pistol. No different than what anyone else who carries a gun does. As has been posted before, most police officers are not gun people, they usually don't shoot any more than they have to, and that is precious little. With the rapidly increasing cost of ammunition departments are able to give out less and less practice ammo for their officers, and so many officers who would otherwise practice on their own time don't because they can't afford to or don't want to pay for it.

Police don't have some magical skill with firearms that no one else can achieve, any middling competition shooter will outshoot the vast majority of officers. And this type of security requires no more attention or day-to-day work than to notice when someone begins to shoot in the school.

[Pithlet]

251. Last resort security

For an event that has is almost certainly never to occur, because the odds are extremely slim. What this does is increase the odds that the gun gets used erroneously. It's not the technical skill of the actual gun use I'm worried about. It's the decision making skills. Police officers are trained on when it's appropriate to use their weapon and how to identify targets. Experienced police officers are also going to be much better at diffusing conflict and have training and equipment that better allows them to use non-lethal options. Because it's not just out and out school shootings we're talking about, here. Day to day conflict resolution will come into play also, particularly at at risk schools where this kind of policy will be more likely to be employed. Teachers do not have the time for that kind of training, and are not going to have that kind of experience. I've nothing but the utmost respect for the teaching profession, but I realize there are bad apples in the bunch. There are teachers I would not trust with that sort of decision making skills. If they assess a situation wrong, it could result in dead kids, and/or dead co-workers. Not worth the added risk.

[tburnsten]

254. I think that is why they have the subjective approval

requirement, because there are people who might very well be eligible for a carry permit, due to a lack of wrongdoing in their life, and might successfully achieve crisis managment and hostile situation training, yet still not really be the type of person you really want around kids. Those people would hopefully be caught by the final check, which is the top administrator's personal judgement. The admin is obviously not perfect, but who is? Overall I think there are plenty of checkpoints that a teacher would have to cross before being able to carry in the classroom, and most people would be dissuaded just by the process itself. That is why many people I know do not have their own gun or carry permit yet, not because they are untrustworthy ineligible or not someone who should have them, they want them but not badly enough to fulfill the procedural requirements, which means they are probably not interested enough to sink the time and money into practice, which to me says they should not be carrying. At least not yet. I think the same mechanism would probably separate many somewhat interested teachers from doing this.

[YvonneCa]

202. Sure it does...

...if you had any idea of how schools work. But, since you don't...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3823626

[YvonneCa]

201. And it was a GREAT...

...response, too. :7

[Pithlet]

204. You brought up some great points, too.

There are just so many things wrong with this. I don't think this is something that will become widespread. I can't even imagine thi going over with my kids' school district. I can't think too many parents or educators would get behind this on a broad scale. But, the fact that even a single school district did this is pretty scary. This has to be spoken out against at every turn.

[YvonneCa]

206. Agreed...

...completely.

[YvonneCa]

200. ...

...http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3804139&mesg_id=3823626

[spin]

205. Insanity is doing nothing to prevent school shootings...

School shootings are one of the most tragic events that can happen in the United States today. Although they are rare, they are also unacceptable. We need to find a solution to this problem. While we never will be able to totally eliminate all school shootings we may be able to prevent some or most from occurring.

I've read through many of the arguments in this discussion and both sides have made some valid points.

The average high school teacher may not be the best choice to carry a weapon. Not that they are too busy by any means. The lack of disciple and the fact that high schools are filled with testosterone pumped young gang bangers might lead to the teacher being overpowered and the consequent loss of his/her weapon with disastrous results. There could be exceptions to this rule, a retired combat veteran, for example an navy seal or green beret. (Some of my teachers in high school were WWII or Korean vets. Nobody messed with them. Any attempt to attack them would have resulted in a severe ass kicking. But that was a long time ago in a universe far away.)

A college professor or teacher works in a different more mature environment as does his adult students who have a concealed weapons permit. A weapon in the classroom could have brought the Virginia Tech shooting to a abrupt halt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

Despite the common view, police officers are not excellent marksmen. However, an experienced law enforcement officer does have the advantage of having worked the streets and encountered and arrested people with mental issues, drunks and criminals. Most police officers have a developed ability to "read" people and have a lot of experience in how to handle potentially dangerous situations. An armed police officer or an armed school resource office is a fair choice for protection in a high school. If the school system is unable to afford one, the state should. We waste a lot of money in this country. Providing school security would be far from a waste.

One possibility for high school security is a individual such as a school administrator having access to firearms. I feel he/she should complete an extensive training course in crisis management and an in depth shooting course designed around a high school "Hogan"s Alley"
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/factsfigure/train.htm

I would also recommend that they participate in a program such as the Florida Highway Patrol Auxiliary http://www.floridastatetrooper.org/Home/Home.aspx

We need to take measures to prevent school shootings. In an Utopian world or one similar to the 60's when I was in high school, the problems we face today didn't exist. Many people on DU would love to see firearms banned, but unless we develop a magic wand which would make all firearms disappear bans will do no good. If anything a gun ban would merely exacerbate the problem of violence. Criminals by definition don't obey laws. Honest people do. The bad guys would have the weapons and would use them to terrorize law abiding citizens.

I truly believe all posters here would like to prevent school shootings. I also believe we can develop solutions if we work together and attempt to understand and consider other viewpoints. We don't have to play a game like two football teams attempting to overpower the opposing team and score the most points. We are all on the same team.

[YvonneCa]

207. A couple solutions...

...to help:

1. More parental involvement in schools. Know what your child is doing in his/her spare time. Spend time with them. Drag them away from their 'video games'.

2. Conflict resolution training for students and teachers.

3. Funding for programs that support schools in helping at-risk kids. The sooner kids are identified and get support to help them deal with their problems...from homework to getting along with friends and parents...the smaller the number of potential 'shooters'.

4. Work with media to stop glorifying and endlessly covering shootings that do happen. Okay to report...just don't make them 'stars'.

5. More school psychologists in schools. The current ratio is way too high. (Smaller class size would help, too, so teachers can give more individual attention to their students.)

6. Teach children more cooperative skills...as opposed to just competitive sports.

If this sounds like a list from a teacher, :7 that's because it is. These things are not secrets. Many schools are already doing these things. But they need to become common knowledge to work. It requires a team effort. :)

[spin]

208. All excellent ideas...

I particularly like:

4. Work with media to stop glorifying and endlessly covering shootings that do happen. Okay to report...just don't make them 'stars'.

Glorifying the shooter only causes other students with mental problems to fantasize about emulating the "hero" and attempting to get more "kills".

Obviously the solution to the phenomena of school shootings requires more than merely allowing responsible and trained adults to have access to weapons in school.

As does the problem of crime and violence in our society.

[YvonneCa]

213. Thank you. I'm kind of ...

...liking how this thread is turning out. A lot of thoughtful conversation...on all sides. :)

[spin]

227. I've learned some new ideas by reading all the different...

viewpoints in this thread. I've even reconsidered my position.

Thoughtful conversation is productive.

[YvonneCa]

232. I agree. n/t

[tburnsten]

224. That is a superb plan of action

But the teachers are not going to be carrying to stop students from shooting up the school, they are going to be carrying to be capable reacting to and stopping in progress a school shooting, regardless of who is attacking. The man who killed the amish students certainly wouldn't have been helped by parental involvement or school psychologists because he wasn't a student. Someone like seung-hui cho very well might have slipped through the cracks and not gotten the benefit of those programs despite being a student. All of the measures you wrote about are just excellent ways to approach running our schools, but none of them can do what an armed trained "good guy" at the school can do- Stop a school shooter cold.

[YvonneCa]

225. Thanks...

...and I'll ignore the rest... :7

[tburnsten]

226. I say tomato...

[YvonneCa]

231. ...

... :) With good reason. :7

[DutchLiberal]

210. Only in America!

[spin]

229. Actually there armed school personnel in other countries...

Two Palestinian terrorists disguised in Israel Defense Forces (IDF) uniforms entered the study hall at Makor Haim High School in Kibbutz Kfar Etzion southeast of Jerusalem.

Armed with guns and knives, the terrorists managed to stab several students before armed school counselors arrived and shot them dead.
http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/310078.aspx

Of course we all know that there is absolutely no possibility of a high school in the U.S. being attacked by terrorists.

[tburnsten]

230. Luckily so

:eyes:

[walldude]

228. Texas: The testing ground for really stupid ideas. n/t

[tburnsten]

233. Explain please

[Lorien]

236. Thank goodness I don't have a child in that school system

I'd be looking for other alternatives right now if I did.

[tburnsten]

239. And unless you had the personal finances

to uproot your family and move far away, you would be shit out of luck. The entire school district is composed of 110 students. When there is a birth the entire town knows about it! There are no alternatives in that area, and there is no assistance for the school in a catastrophic event like a random attack on the school.

[2KS2KHonda]

240. It's truly amazing how some people absolutely hate the principle of self-defense.

I can't even begin to explain it. :grr:

[tburnsten]

241. I think the biggest majority of them

just doesn't understand firearms at all, and while their position regarding teachers (total lack of confidence, despite the fact that they work with their kids every day) may not change, I think a few trips to a good range and some instruction would really alter their views on them. Maybe if they attended a few competitions and police training events they could see police are not special and have no real advantage over a civilian shooter, except that their base level training is free. They should see some of the schools for shooters, non-leos can acquire every single skill a policeman can and far more without much trouble, it's just a little expensive.

[YvonneCa]

243. Nice misconception and generalization, there...

...about teachers:

"...I think the biggest majority of them just doesn't understand firearms at all, and while their position regarding teachers (total lack of confidence, despite the fact that they work with their kids every day) may not change ..."


It's funny that you can represent the 'pro-firearm' argument so blindly, and lack the empathetic skills to discern another point of view...especially after all that has been posted to this thread. Did you actually read what has been posted?


Your position that teachers 'lack confidence' and that that is the problem is flat-out wrong. This is not a teacher-confidence issue. Most teachers I know are confident...to the EXTREME. If given the task of carrying guns, they would either do it well, or resign in protest. Their opinion would be asserted strongly, either way. But, for someone who has spent time in a school environment, the prospect of firearms around the chaos of school life and children presents an obvious danger...to the children.

The fact that you argue so blindly demonstrates...to me, anyway...that you have either, 1) never worked inside a school or 2) don't really want to understand the problem, but seek to push a 'pro-firearm' point of view.

[tburnsten]

253. I wasn't talking about teachers

I was talking about posters such as yourself who apparently trust teachers to be basically on their own with your children every day for years, but you don't trust them after the amount of training and practice required to gain approval (including the ole subjective "do I want to let you" the administrator subjects them to) to carry a firearm concealed on their body during the day, despite the fact that their is absolutely nothing preventing them or anyone else from doing exactly that right now.

[YvonneCa]

255. That may explain the...

...problem, then. This line-

"...their position regarding teachers (total lack of confidence, despite the fact that they work with their kids every day) may not change..."

-refers to posters who have no confidence in teachers, then? And you are saying that some posters should trust teachers MORE?

Do I understand that better? Remember, I am a teacher AND a poster. :7

[tburnsten]

258. Yes, I am

I am talking about some posters, who have a total lack of confidence in all teachers to be able to effectively, responsibly, and safely respond to an attack on their school with a weapon is a little disconcerting, since many of the posters who are against the idea seem to be operating from a place where ALL teachers will be armed at the school, which is not true and will not ever be true. The only ones who will be armed are those that go through the considerable personal expense of the training requirements the administration has placed on them, and also gotten a very personal subjective nod from the administration.

[2KS2KHonda]

244. I can't comment on current training but I was a firearms instructor for a major city PD's

academy classes 20 years ago. Shooting was then a TINY part of the curriculum and most assuredly did not make experts of the cadets. Those who actually became proficient did so on their own initiative (and expense.) Many did not bother but that wasn't a big problem since very few policemen ever have the need to fire their weapon at a person. 90% of them never even take it out of the holster (in the line of duty)

I think it's just weird that some people wouldn't trust a teacher (even with training) with a gun but they're fine leaving their kids with him/her.
That's just really fucking nuts.

[Pithlet]

252. How come you don't trust your hair stylist to remove your tonsils?

I mean, you trust him or her with your hair? Why not your your ears/nose/throat area? That's just nuts! And surely, you must trust your veterinarian with your landscaping? Otherwise, that's just insanity. Geeze, these people who don't trust the people who teach their children arithmetic with keeping up with the latest in dealing with sudden dangerous conflicts with less than lethal methods, and knowing when and when not to pull their gun! Stuff that cops have to actually, you know, get special training for. What a silly, petty concern!

Okay, Seriously now. You do realize that there are many other types of situations that happen at schools that vary on a scale between out and out school shooting and typical school brawl, don't you? And that teachers may not be able to accurately assess on a dime what does and does not call for deadly force, the way a cop who went to an academy and trained for a lengthy period of time and continue to train for do? That it isn't merely a matter of gun skills acquired by learning how to handle and shoot a gun?

[tburnsten]

259. I think it will be quite simple to figure out what requires armed response

Basically, if someone starts shooting up the school, they need to draw their weapon. No question about it, that is a very easy thing to figure out. And why on earth would the teachers job suddenly expand to include arresting students and using less than lethal methods for anything? The armed teachers are armed for the single, sole purpose of thwarting a random shooter at the school. That is all. There is no other situation where they would be expected or allowed to use their pistol, unless maybe someone decided to go on a stabbing spree. The students are not the threat the administration is addressing, random crazies are. And the only way to address that situation is with armed force, which they can't get without waiting thrity minutes, so armed teachers are the only option for them.

[Pithlet]

246. I grew up around guns. I've handled them myself.

I've got no problems with guns, or the people who appreciate them. I've got everything against gun lobbyists. I think too many people are caught up in an agenda and have lost sight of how dangerous guns actually are. And these are the people who will lose us our rights faster than any "gungrabbers". It's the blowback against that movement that hurts us. The ones who want to convince everyone that they are just harmless "tools" (No more dangerous than your bathtub!) and that everyone would be better off if we all armed ourselves for "self defense". That is the agenda pushed by the lobbyist who want to sell more guns. I want people who know guns and appreciate guns to be able to have them. I don't want knee jerkers who think they need gun for safety after watching the hype on 6 o'clock news and picking up the latest NRA flyer and buy them after taking a few courses, and then it goes off while they're pulling down their pants in the bathroom stall next to me. Crap like this school district arming their teachers? This is what comes of overzealous gun nuts and their lobbying. Not from any genuine need. And all it is doing is endangering the teachers and students.

I'm not some know-nothing. I know what happens when people who have no business having a gun gets a hold of one. And that's what will happen if more school districts employ this. There's simply no way to ensure that only teachers who know how to handle a gun and can handle proper training will have one. Anyone who knows anything about guns should understand that. Too many have bought into the gun lobbyest schtic, and have forgotten basic stuff like this. It's why I don't go into the gun forum, which is where this thread should be, now.

[YvonneCa]

248. There's a gun forum? Remind me never to go...

...there. :7

[YvonneCa]

242. Welcome to DU. n/t