Russia Is Waging `Full-Scale War' Over S. Ossetia

[seemslikeadream]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601100&sid=ahW0pDPEQxWI&refer=germany


Aug. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Georgia accused Russia of waging ``full-scale war,'' as Russian troops took control of the capital of the separatist South Ossetia region, rejecting calls by the international community for an immediate cease-fire.

``It's all going to hell,'' Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said today in an interview on CNN in which he appealed for international help. ``We are willing to do cease- fire immediately providing the other side stops to shoot and to bomb.''

Russia has received no official communication from Georgia about Saakashvili's offer, the Kremlin press office said by telephone. Ships of Russia's Black Sea Fleet moved toward Abkhazia, another separatist region, and Georgia's largest port, Poti, while Russian jets crossed the border every 15 minutes to attack military and civilian targets in as many as six locations simultaneously, Georgian Security Council secretary Kakha Lomaia said. Russia's actions amounted to ``full-scale war,'' he said.

President Dmitry Medvedev said Russia's actions were a response to Georgia's assault on its citizens as well as the peacekeepers Russia has had in South Ossetia since the disputed region broke away from Georgia in the early 1990s. South Ossetia exists now as a de facto independent state with Russian economic support.

Putin's Visit

Prime Minister Vladimir Putin flew to Russia's North Ossetia region to oversee a ``humanitarian operation'' as refugees fled from the violence. Putin made the unannounced visit on his return from Beijing, where he had attended the opening ceremony of the Olympic Games, the former president's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, said by phone.

Putin said Russia's actions were ``absolutely justified and legitimate and more important, necessary,'' in a meeting with regional leaders in Vladikavkaz, the capital of North Ossetia, broadcast on state television.

Putin's ``visit has no military component,'' and will be short, Peskov said, declining to elaborate. Putin said 34,000 refugees had crossed the border into Russia.

[bemildred]

1. Did he expect "half-ass war"? nt

[NutmegYankee]

2. Georgia has been a thorn in Russia's side for years.

Any takers on the bet that Putin will declare he intends to pursue the war until there is "regime change" in Georgia?

[dipsydoodle]

3. And the moral is

never start what you can't finish.

The Abkhazians have also joined the fray now :
Meanwhile, separatists in Abkhazia - Georgia's other breakaway region - say they have launched air and artillery strikes on Georgian forces in the Kodori Gorge. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7551595.stm

[HCE SuiGeneris]

4. Putin, Medvedev, Bush, Cheney -- war is profit, therefore, war is good.

This really has a very nasty tone to its beginning and its progression.

[Selatius]

5. South Ossetia declared independence in the early 1990s. It was Georgia that invaded them.

The Russians got involved as a response.

[NutmegYankee]

10. No other country recognized their independence.

Hence Georgia send troops to another part of ITS country to suppress rebels.

[Selatius]

12. True, but South Ossetians don't consider themselves Georgian. They're a different ethnic group.

They did not want to be under Georgian control, thus their civil war against Georgia that led to Georgian troops being evicted from South Ossetia in the early 1990s.

[NutmegYankee]

13. Understood. But every country in the region has that problem.

None of the borders match the ethnic boundaries. That said, Georgia has every right to end the Civil war without Russian intrusion. Especially after what the Russians did to Chechnya.

[Selatius]

14. Ideally, Chechnya would've been granted independence. So too South Ossetia.

The only difference here is that Chechnya didn't have a powerful ally to back it up when it wanted to assert the right of self-determination. South Ossetians do.

[NutmegYankee]

17. Mighty selective is that powerful ally.

Almost blatantly hypocritical. I'm sure it has a lot to do with Putin's disdain of Georgia's politics and friends.

On edit: typo

[tama]

18. Georgia's

military aggression is a blatant violation of the cease-fire agreement. Small scale violations from both sides are ordinary but this was an attempt of full scale invation - ie an act of war.

Hypocricy of West for not supporting sovereignety of Ossetians and Abkhasians is just pitifull, in light of Kosovo and Afganistan and Iraq.

[NutmegYankee]

19. A nation cannot invade itself. n/t

[tama]

21. Semantics

Georgia - as Stalin draw its borders - is a country with many nations - all of whom don't want to be part of Georgia.

[NutmegYankee]

22. As is every other country in the region...

Why not just have a giant crying fest?




In the meantime, Russia has sent it's army over the recognized border of a sovereign nation! Add to that the fact that Russia is bombing Tbilisi and other cities, and it clear who the aggressor is.

[JVS]

23. Hey, we (Nato) dismembered Yugoslavia near our turf, now it's Russia's turn

[NutmegYankee]

24. To be fair, Yugoslavia did a fine job of that themselves. n/t

[JVS]

25. Without Western intervention Serbia would currently not be so small.

[NutmegYankee]

26. And the muslim population of the balkins so large.

[JVS]

28. So which do we value today, the territorial integrity of Georgia or the lives of Ossetians?

[NutmegYankee]

29. You imply a similar scenario.

I figure having both countries fighting in the region is causing the loss of lives.

[tama]

31. Who the real aggressor is?

So you think it it's okay to break the ceasefire agreement and seek military solution to the ethnic conflict?

You think ethnic cleansing are okay:

"What seems beyond doubt is that the Georgian assault that began on Friday - after two weeks of increasingly heavy skirmishes between separatists and Georgian forces - was massive and indiscriminate as volleys of Grad missiles rained down on Tskhinvali and neighbouring villages.

Refugees also claimed that civilians were shot, kidnapped and burnt to death by rampaging soldiers in areas occupied by Georgian troops. Russian television has broadcast claims that Georgian troops 'executed' injured Russian peacekeepers based in Tskhinvali who were captured during the initial assault: 10 peacekeepers were killed and up to 150 injured during the rocket and air attack.

Among those fleeing was Lusya Khoriyeva, 40, a housewife from Tsunari in South Ossetia, one of an estimated 4,000-5,000 refugees who have arrived in the Russian North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz, in the past two days.

'I spent three days in our basement with two of my neighbours,' she said yesterday. 'The Georgians were bombing from the air and with Grad missiles. Then their tanks rolled into the village at 3am on Friday. People shouted, "Run, run!" We crawled out of the basement. Our Home Guard fighters were running too: their ammunition was finished. I saw one man hit by a rocket. It took off his head and splattered it against a wall.

'We crawled to a field of wheat. A shell landed near me, but did not explode. Another fell in the wheat and set it on fire. My robe was burning. I could hear girls screaming: "Don't kill me!" The Georgians were rounding them up. We escaped beyond the field. I came here in a car with 15 people in it. My son, my husband and my daughter are there. I don't know what has happened to them.'

Alisa Mamiyeva, 26, an English student from Znaur region, added: 'Georgian soldiers flung open the doors of our houses, marched in and destroyed everything. Women were hiding in barrels of salted cheese to avoid being taken.'

Another woman from the same area said: 'They are going from door to door, killing. A few of us escaped in a car but my brother and my aunt and uncle are still there.'

Zarema Kochieva, 45, the owner of a small shop in Tskhinvali, managed to flee with her two daughters to Vladikavkaz on Thursday. 'My husband stayed behind to fight,' she said. 'Our men have only automatic rifles against tanks. He told me he ran into our apartment. A Georgian tank saw him and fired at our apartment block, destroying half of it. There are constant firefights. I think my brother may be already dead.'"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/10/russia.georgia1?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

No matter how you interprete and what value you give to international law and sovereignity of UN member countries (not nations as nationhood has little to do with statehood), there is no question that Georgia started this war. Did you support Clinton's Kosovo war, BTW?

[NutmegYankee]

32. Do you consider South Ossetia to be part of Russia?

I don't. Did Georgia engage in a full scale attack on the province of South Ossetia, yes. Georgia did it to bring it back under control, and possibly to end small attacks from rebel forces. After this, Russia invaded. That is a Separate act of War. The breakaway province conflict with Georgia is best summed up as a civil war, as yet unfinished. Russia jumping in and attacking Greater Georgia, well, you answer that.

[tama]

33. Not up to me

up to them. So, did you support Kosovo war?

[libnnc]

6. are there any loose nukes in this region?

do we have a clue as to who has them?

[Selatius]

7. Georgia has no nukes. Whatever nukes there were was given over to Russia after the Cold War ended.

The same pattern was repeated in all Eastern Bloc countries after the Soviet Union collapsed. They transferred the stockpiles over to the Russians.

[libnnc]

16. thank you

not sure if I'm relieved...

I'm trying to understand this situation as best I can. It's been quite a while since I kept up with it.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Well, there's also this oil pipeline...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3764580&mesg_id=3764580

[JNelson6563]

15. Yep, there's also that.

Things that make you go "hmmmm". From the DU post you linked to:

[Geek_Girl]

11. Putin really is a bad dude

As the world watches the Olympics he's invading another country.

[Monk06]

20. You have it backwards, Saakashvili is the villain in this nasty piece of work not Putin.

[HEyHEY]

27. I know eh... people just ASSUME russia is acting like it's 1982 again

[Monk06]

30. I've been monitoring Russia Today the English language news feed.

Saakashvili was shown claiming Russia invaded
Georgia while smiling and joking about
Russia picking on poor little Georgia.

Well, Tskhinvali was 90% destroyed by Georgian
rocket and artillery fire on Thursday night.

The Russians crossed the border on Friday.

If you want to believe that Russia started this
just tune into MSNBC or CNN.

Go to The Guardian if you want a more balanced
view.

Russian Today is a Russian source so bear that
in mind.

http://wms3.visionip.tv/Russia%20Today

[Dover]

34. Another perspective on this >

South Ossetia At Front Of New East-West Conflict?
by Radio Free Europe


In an effort to prod the West to Tbilisi's side in its rapidly escalating armed conflict with Russia, President Mikheil Saakashvili is invoking the ghosts of Cold War battles past -- Moscow's suppression of the 1956 Hungarian uprising, the 1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia, and the Soviet incursion into Afghanistan in 1979.

The Georgian leader's strategy is clear. Tbilisi's small army is no match for the Russian military machine. Saakashvili's only chance of success in his bid to regain control of the Moscow-backed breakaway region of South Ossetia, therefore, is to globalize the conflict and turn it into a central front of a new struggle between Moscow and the West.

"What Russia has been doing against Georgia for the last two days represents an open aggression, unprecedented in modern times," Saakashvili said in a televised address on August 8. "It is a direct challenge for the whole world. If Russia is not stopped today by the whole world, tomorrow Russian tanks might reach any European capital. I think everyone has understood this by now."

So far, the West has not taken the bait. The United States and the European Union are sending envoys to Georgia to try to broker a cease-fire and Western leaders have issued predictable statements calling on both sides to show restraint.

Most European leaders, wary of antagonizing Moscow, have strived to come across as more or less balanced in the conflict. And even Georgia's closest ally in the West, the United States, has thus far offered little more than rhetorical support...cont'd

http://www.rferl.org/content/Article/1189793.html