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The more I read, the more I think American economists hate America

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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:44 PM
Original message
The more I read, the more I think American economists hate America
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 10:45 PM by dubeskin
Note to people, I put this in GD because I figured it didn't fully relate to the economy itself, which is why I didn't post there.

So let me just preface this by saying I'm going into my Senior year of high school and one of the AP classes I'll be taking is AP Microeconomics. Now, like any AP class, we're required to do some summer work as an intro to the class. In this case it was Naked Economics by Charles Wheelan. Now it may have helped me to research this man's credentials before I embarked on my work, because by page 30 I had already discredited this man (anyone who thinks that all energy is nonrenewable holds no valid opinions in my mind. Last time I checked, wind was never going to "disappear").

But now that I'm almost done (thank God) and I'm in the chapter on globalization, he discusses how "Tom Friedman has suggested that the antiglobalization coalition ought to be known as 'The Coalition to Keep the World's Poor People Poor.'" And honestly, the more I read and re-read to make sure that my eyes weren't deceiving me, it appears that American economists agree it's a good thing that jobs are leaving the country...or at least have extremely bad short-term memory.

Wheelan originally says in Chapter 11 that "we trade with other because it frees up time and resources to do things that we are better at." Now, I think that's an accurate blanket statement to conclude that specialization has allowed for us as a culture to develop and grow and prosper. We would still be in the Dark Ages if we hadn't. However, he later goes on to contradict himself and discuss trade barriers.

Trade barriers are a tax - albeit a hidden tax. Suppose the U.S. government tacked a 30-cent tax on every gallon of orange juice sold in America. The conservative antigovernment forces would be up in arms. So would liberals, who generally take issue with takes on food and clothing, since such taxes are regressive, meaning that they are most costly (as a percentage of income) for the disadvantaged. Well, the government does add 30 cents to the cost of every gallon of orange juice, though now in a way that is nearly as transparent as a tax. The American government slaps tariffs on Brazilian oranges and orange juice that can be as high as 63 percent. Parts of Brazil are nearly ideal for growing citrus, which is exactly what has American growers concerned. So the government protects them. Economists reckon that the tariffs on Brazilian oranges and juice limit the supply of imports and therefore add about 30 cents to the price of a gallon of orange juice. Most consumers have no idea that the government is taking money out of their pockets and sending it to orange growers in Florida. That does not show up on the receipt.


Now, when you finally sort through the opinion and find the "facts," it's pretty biased still. What Wheelan is saying, as I interpret it, is that if we allowed Brazil to import their citrus without a tax on it, the whole industry would be better? He later goes on to suggest that by doing so would make the industry more competitive and so growers lower prices. Now let me get this straight. By taking away a tax which helps the government, you force American growers to lower prices, thus them making less money, thus being worse off financially, thus not being able to grow as much, thus forcing some farmers out of the business. This then increases unemployment, burdening the government even more, and now that "specialization" is gone from the system, their "human capital" (or the skills, work experience, traits, etc.) is irrelevant because they can't work. Now, didn't he JUST say that specialization is a GOOD thing? Not only does he contradict his own point, but that fact that so many other economists agree with him on this idea of lowering trade barriers it seems that they want to secretly make America a country in which their only products are foreign.

This is just an example of the book. Now it seems to me, although this could be the uneducated high schooler in me, that when we open our markets up significantly, so much so that every industry is challenged by cheaper goods that are less regulated, we encourage people to leave the American workforce and turn to something else, most notably something that asks "Would you like fries with that?" every three minutes. That seems to defeat the point of specialization. From what it seems to me, American economists want to see America is huge international market, so that you can walk down the street, buy Arabian kabobs, Indian dresses, German beer, Japanese cars, Italian wines, and Chinese shoes...oh wait. Nevermind, you can't, because your jobs have essentially been taken over by other countries, and your government stood by, watched, and encouraged it.

By the way, I want you to point out the flaws in my argument. It can only help us both.
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ingac70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
1. The world's poor stay poor...
and we become poor right along with them, that's what those jerks want.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. The REAL economists are being held hostage in cheney's underground bunker.
No economist in his/her right mind would buy into bushCONomics.
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Eh, most of the real economists are probably using their knowledge
To make money on Wall Street.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
66. Only If They're Big Heat At An Investment Bank
The Professor
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
3. You are one of the most aware high school seniors I've seen recently...
Wow. Your arguments are incredibly persuasive. I know they're true, which helps, but seriously - you are a very informed young person. I wish there were many, many, many more like you.

I can point out no real flaws at this point. I am going to use your points, if I may, in my own discussions. Your wisdom is beyond your years, if I may say so. I'll look for the soft points to help you out, but on first reading, I'm not seeing them.

Thanks, dubeskin. You give me hope. :-)
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. No problem. I was just hoping I wasn't too far off base...excuse the pun
And go on ahead and use them. I really wanted some confirmation that I didn't have some wackjob theories.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I just don't see whackjob at all.
I see thoughtful reasoning, which is in short supply in the world these days.

I think you are very insightful and will do well in life. I am proud of you and thank you for sharing your insights. The world is better for it. :-)
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #11
61. Niether do I
Good catch dube.
I hope you bring this up in your classes.I think your classmates need to hear this.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Disaster economics, that Friedman knew it well.
Have you read Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine yet?
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I have not
But after reading this book it's gotten me pretty angry that some of the world's "greatest economists" think this way. It's frightening. What's even more frightening is that several of my friends are agreeing with this.

I will definitely look into it though. The name sounds familiar.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Depending on you to give them hell! You've got it!
Who references them as the "greatest" economists?
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. The author
The guy is Charles Wheelan. Most of the "greatest economists" he refers to are past Nobel Prize laureates and winners as well as "outstanding" others in the field, as Paul Krugman and Tommy Friedman.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. I once walked on a class in which the prof. indicated that China would not be
a problem until 2040. Didn't need the poly sci credit anyway, and he was an obvious pug. Only class I withdrew from at the University. Those were the days. I suggest you look those three closely. :hi:
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 05:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
57. Please read it
You'll get even more information about the jackass who is Friedman.
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angrycarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
8. They do hate America
Or a least American regulations. Todays multinationals owe no loyalty to any country. They want to do business anywhere there is a market for something without silly things like borders getting in the way. The only people that this system benefits are the shareholders. Everyone else can die for all they care.
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
9. ...a sight I found hanginig around. Tell me what you think.
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susanna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. BTW, K&R.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. The wealthy elites have taken David Ricardo's free trade theory and bastardized it.
Free trade today is nothing more than a corrupt investment/outsourcing scheme to rob wealth and political power from the working class. It's not Ricardo's free trade when you ship labor and capital out of one country (USA) to another country just so you can hire slave-wage workers, bypass all environmental, labor, product safety laws, etc., and then allow the CEO's and wealthy stockholders to pocket the difference. It's not Ricardo's free trade when you allow your trading partners 15-20 years to lower their tariffs, while we lower ours almost immediately. It's not Ricardo's free trade when you allow your trading partners to charge a 10-30% VAT, while we have no VAT on imports from them.

Our economists have been bought and paid for by the giant corporations and their investors and so have the politicians. These people not only drink the Kool-Aid, they fucking swim in it for their daily exercise.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
69. Actually, that first element is perfectly in line with Ricardo's theory.
The idea is that "cheap labor" is a function of opportunity cost: if there is little other productive labor for a person to do, he or she will be hired much more cheaply than if there are highly productive alternatives (as there tend to be for people in the developed world.)

Thus, an allocation of labor to (say) orange work when there are highly productive alternatives is replaced by an allocation of labor to orange work where there are no such alternatives. Overall efficiency gain. The trouble is that orange production is probably not a good development strategy.

As for the rest, if anything the opposite is true: the rich and powerful nations set the rules of global trade to their own advantage. Look at US and EU agricultural subsidies. China is something of an exception, because it's a developing country that nevertheless has a lot of weight it can throw around.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:28 PM
Response to Original message
16. I'm not sure I agree (and sorry about the length)
Edited on Wed Aug-06-08 11:30 PM by BrightVictor
Let's take the orange juice example. We have Florida growers who have hidden trade barriers that increase the cost. You have Brazilian producers who can do the same job for less. Remove the trade barriers and now American consumers can get orange juice that originates in Brazil at a much lower cost. Does this hurt domestic growers? Maybe. It may force domestic producers to find new ways to manufacture and compete in the global economy. To your point about being unable to compete with cheaper more unregulated goods is an interesting one. If the product is inferior and of poorer quality, people are free to choose the more expensive or better quality items. The growers who do get hurt by this are forced by the market to become more efficient and this leads to more innovation, efficiency, and competition. Which is good. Some will be hurt by more liberalization, but the goal of free trade is to raise the water of the entire ocean to make as many boats rise as possible. If some boats sink, then it might be an appropriate step to provide training, support, or work programs to alleviate some of these lost industries. Thats the real question, not whether or not to liberalize trade, but how to minimize the loss to inefficient industries.

But keep in mind that...
(from the office of the US Trade Representative)
-In 2005, U.S. exports to the rest of the world totaled $1.2 trillion and supported one in five U.S. manufacturing jobs. Jobs directly linked to the export of goods pay 13% to 18% more than other U.S. jobs. Moreover, agricultural exports hit a record high in 2005 and now account for 926,000 jobs.

-The service sector accounts for roughly 79% of the U.S. economy and 30% of the value of American exports.Service industries account for eight out of every 10 jobs in the U.S. and provide more jobs than the rest of the economy combined.

-The Institute for International Economics estimates that over the past 50 years, trade liberalization has brought an additional $9,000 per year to the typical American household. NAFTA and the Uruguay Round generate annual benefits of $1,300–$2,000 for the average American family of four.
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. I think we can both agree
That the cheaper and higher quality a product, the better everyone is, except the producers. If an orange farmer in Florida finds that it's impossible to compete with the Brazil farmers, they close up. Now multiply that by hundreds or thousands, and apply that to another market. It's not healthy to the American economy. Let me just use sweat shops as an example (because the author goes on to talk about them in a biased tone as well, defending them). How does an American textile factory compete with a sweatshop that is able to pay $1 a day for a worker who is just as productive as an American who gets $50 a day? While the quality may differ, in the end the American company will fail to make as much a profit. The best way to minimize the loss is to keep jobs in America.

But back to specialization. Those orange farmers or textile workers essentially grew up on that industry; they're trained there. You can't take someone and convert them into a top notch lawyer overnight. Those workers are now forced into either unemployment or to find another low paying, menial job which they are not as good at.

To fight your statistics, I don't think it's possible to deny that we have more money now because of NAFTA and free trade. However, in the process we've lost many American jobs to other countries. When does the cost of unemployment overpower the $1000-2000 more for American families?
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. So what are you advocating?
First, in response to your sweatshop example, there have been many, many articles essentially entitled "In Defense of Sweatshops." It is not a pretty argument, but it is interesting. Does that make it right? No, but it does indicate development in a place where those same people would be in even more poverty. That should not stop us from requiring countries to enforce higher labor and environmental standards.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B05E6D8103EF931A15755C0A961958260

Second, we agree that NAFTA/WTO has led to an increase in wealth across the board. Keep in mind that those same policies, to use those same statistics, have created 40 million jobs in the last 20 years.

To rebut your point about losing jobs to cheaper foreign producers: Look at the US agricultural economy a century ago. New innovations in manufacturing and production caused a serious decrease in the agricultural sector of the economy. People had to adjust to an industrial based economy. Now look at today, people are suffering in our outdated, non-competitive industrial sector. There is going to be a new wave of innovation and production (for example see Obama's plans for new green industries to be built in the US). There will be some short-term "losers" in the global economy, but it is vastly better for nearly all those who participate.

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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. A century ago was different times
I really can't stand when people compare this century to the last one. The difference is that in 1900 people weren't competing to sell their crops for the lowest price on the world market necessarily. Likewise, new technologies have emerged which make production faster and easier to reap more output. But there's a difference between adapting to new technology to increase production and adapting to prices and competition against another nation. It's much easier to "go green" and change your equipment than it is to change EVERYTHING to adapt and possibly fail to competition. Likewise, there are ultimately no losers when updating technology.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. I was only using that as an example
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 12:47 AM by BrightVictor
to illustrate the development of new technologies to replace outdated industries. This is basic Adam Smith stuff. Another country can produce something faster, cheaper, and of better quality then it makes no sense to buy domestic. Even if it kills the domestic industry consumers are better off by having more money to spend. This leads to investment, entrepreneurship, etc... and the whole thing starts all over again.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:40 AM
Response to Reply #21
62. 'have created 40 million jobs'
Really?
Where are those 40 million jobs at?They sure as hell aren't here in this country.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. "from the office of the US Trade Representative". That's all I need to know.
Total FUCKING BULLSHIT!!!!!!
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. Tee hee! Your on a highschooler's thread. They say bullshit?
:toast:
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. What do they say?
Maybe one of them will give me a Carla Hills quote from 1992.

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. I know what mine says, and I know where he "learnt" it. Ummmmmm.
"I don't know what the fuss is about. There are 7,000 girls." That one? And if so relevance?
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
58. Yup, they sure do
I was amazed when I went back to my 15 year high school reunion and my friends were all rewriting the history of their highschool years. I was there. I remember that we talked like truck drivers and we fucked like, well, we fucked. A lot. Luckily most of us used protection, thereby allowing us to indulge in the amnesia. I didn't get the amnesia memo, though and was highly amused.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. And you leave out the unregulated safety of imports ie lead, ecolli, salmonella
all of which do not "look" inferior. Service sector jobs doing what? How much do they pay? AND Have you checked the trade deficit lately?
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. The current account deficit had been in the 700-800 billion a year range
for the past few years. The number of middle class jobs shipped out of the US the past 5 years is over 3 million. It will get much worse when the 2008 figures are tallied.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. To answer your questions
As soon as people found out toys and some foods had health hazards they stopped buying them. Should there be better safeguards? Yes, absolutely, but that doesn't mean free trade is bad.

Service sector jobs make up almost the entire economy and the median income in the US (as of 2006) is $48,000. The second highest in the world.

The trade deficit is a serious issue. A bad financial market, the price of energy, and depressed dollar are really making it worse. However, a larger trade deficit indicates a healthy currency where consumers can spend more on goods and services. Also, it would do better if we saved more of our income instead of the -0.5% we did last year. Ouch.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Your 48K is too high, your savings idea, well ask people who are making minimum
how much they can save, and don't leave out fixed income. Snort. Free trade is bad, but I'm going to bed. Will get back to you tomorrow.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. The 48K is BushCo numbers.
2% inflation is also BushCo numbers. This poster is a repuke troll. Good night.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Really?
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. Who do think was controlling the government in 2006?
Do you really believe every single statistic coming from BushCo? They also tell us there is almost no inflation, and unemployment is only 5%. Iraq had WMD and thousands of terrorists bases. The earth is flat, and the sun revolves around the earth.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Not everything is a conspiracy.
Those statistic are available from numerous organizations. So I really see no merit to your point. Median US Income = approx $48k in 2006 dollars. I fail to see how that is controversial.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Numerous organizations say the CPI is low. Been to the gas pumps, hospital, grocery store,
or hardware store lately. You are defending republican policies that are wrecking the middle class and poor. Why are you here?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
83. Yes really!
:eyes:
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. My numbers are right
OECD and the US Census Bureau confirm it.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/income06/statemhi2.html

Free trade is good. I look forward to continuing this conversation. Night!
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. It's destroying this country
because we're not engaging in real free trade - it's corporate controlled investment/outsourcing. The freaking corporate lobbyists wrote the freaking agreements. Go back to your republican boards.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. What are you talking about?
We should demand more access to foreign markets if they have access to ours. Agreed. Free trade = good. Next issue.
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
42. You're full of republican Kool-Aid. Why are you here?
Fake free trade deals have cost this country millions of jobs and run up the current account deficit to almost 800 billion dollars a year. We're borrowing 1.2 trillion dollars a year to cover the twin deficits, and that has helped drive down the value of the dollar over 40% and fueled inflation. It's total insanity, and you approve it?
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #39
60. They have access to ours to sell their plastic crap goods.
We have access to theirs so we don't have to pay people HERE.

Rising tides have only lifted the YACHTS, in case you've been living in a cave for the past 28 years (most of the damage has occurred in the past 12).

For those of us who LIVE with the horrible effects of free trade, it's not the peaches and cream that you make it out to be.

Can't STAND these zero-sum jokers that come in here spouting this utter nonsense.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/46

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/15

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/9

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/1

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/26

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/21
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #39
72. Milton Friedman has risen from the dead
and is posting on DU. :eyes:

What we are practicing these days is not free trade, but disaster capitalism.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #72
82. LOL is he back today?
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AllieB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
84. Not-So-BrightVictor has not come back to the scene of the crime
You should check out some of his other older posts. He's subtle as a sledgehammer. :eyes:
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #29
63. This is a big fat lie-'the median income in the US (as of 2006) is $48,000.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 07:52 AM by conscious evolution
This is known as lying with statistics.
Take out the top 500 incomes and the lowest 500 incomes and I would bet that number falls significantly.
Here is an example-

100 people-
98 make $50000 a year.
1 makes $0 a year.
1 makes $500,000,000 a year.
Average yearly income= $5,049,000 average yearly income.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #63
76. That's not how medians work. You're thinking mean/average.
Not the same thing.

If you take out the 500 lowest terms and the 500 highest terms, the median is ALWAYS the same--because the median is just the middle term.

The median in your example is $50,000.
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conscious evolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #76
86. That is how an honest
statistician would do it.
Remember who we are dealing with.They lie about everything.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #16
80. I think your metaphor is quite fitting.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 02:39 PM by Jim__
The analogy: but the goal of free trade is to raise the water of the entire ocean to make as many boats rise as possible.

It's a rising tide that raises all boats - all boats in a particular port; the rising tide is accompanied by ebbing tides in other ports. As to raising the water level of the entire ocean - good luck with that (melting glaciers bring their own problems).
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
17. Here is a small flaw in your argument, like you wanted.
It is conceivable that globalization could free up time to do more important things. For instance, while Americans complain about outsourcing, there is not much preventing any one of us from benefiting from outsourcing, rather than being victims of it. Obviously, we benefit by being able to buy goods at the cheapest prices available on the planet. Moreover, though, what people fail to realize is that globalization provides everyone the ability to administer these resources.

By being able to freely purchase goods from around the world, there is nothing prevent me or anyone else from stating a business that leverages these global resources. Admittedly, our employers are not likely to make anyone rich, or even allow for a great retirement, but our economy now depends on people who have managerial abilities and entrepreneurial spirit. That ultimately should drive innovation in the U.S. and make the country stronger.

We are going through a transition now, a time when people don't know what they are supposed to do. One rarely meets someone who has any desire to accomplish anything beyond the 9 to 5 routine. It really confuses the heck out of me. I have my own ambitions that would pan out a lot faster with some help -- but most people are sheep that want nothing more than to go to their jobs every day, come home, and repeat the routine until they die.

It is true that there are a lot of lame jobs in the U.S. right now. But if more people sought to innovate, there might be better jobs available. But how often does anyone meet someone who truly wants to innovate. I've never met one in my entire life, except for a few people who were already business owners.

I mean, if nobody really cares to accomplish anything, it's hard feeling sorry for them. Excuse me if that sounds cold hearted. But people wonder why they are poor but don't really seem to want to do anything special to deserve something more.

This might have something to do with why economists hare Americans.


P.S. Maybe it will quell some of flames I will get, if I mention that I still adamantly support social programs for essential needs like health care, food, and housing. I also believe in a 4 day work week and much more vacation time.
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dubeskin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-06-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. We can't deny that some new things have entered the US
because of globalization. There are many benefits to it, no one can deny that. I certainly won't. I love being able to go to my local Wal-Mart and pick up some crackers from Mexico, maybe some wine from France (just an example, I don't like alcohol and can't drink) and perhaps some sushi from China. But seeing where our priorities are is what matters. I think that certainly we should look at other countries and see what they have to offer. But I think there needs to be limits as to how that would affect our own people first. If allowing another nation to import a good that would cause an entire US industry to collapse, I would hope better judgment would suggest that it's a bad option.

On the thing of people not being self-motivated enough...is it perhaps we DO have too much money? I think our culture needs to shift in a direction to see how privileged we really are. But everyday people seek to innovate and improve the way things are. But it's not a process that just instantly happens. That's why people specialize, so that things still get made while others imagine and innovate.
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DaveJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. We can't decide what gets outsourced
That's not how the global market operates.

Take computer programmers, for example. They used to make a fortune just by knowing HTML in the 90s. Now they are lucky to get a job at all even when they have godlike skills at a dozen programming languages and extraordinary education.

But the global market does not discriminate. These highly intelligent individuals now have to use their intellect to adapt to the market. Even if they can't find old fashioned jobs, they have the opportunity to move into managerial positions and manage outsourced programmers. They have the opportunity to hire these programmers at $7/hr to develop projects on their own. They can start their own software, electronics, or internet companies.

Otherwise, they aren't going to get rich, and just find average low paying jobs and live a boring life like everyone else.

They will be like the massive millions of people who live that way and should have a lot of company to keep them happy.

I don't think anyone should feel any lack of dignity. Nobody should fear being homeless, or fear for lack of medical care, for example. We should all take care of one another.

In terms of pure numbers, yes we certainly need people who can buy things to keep the economy going. You said we have too much money, but I think we need more, in order to support the creation of new businesses. But this money needs to go toward innovative products, and products that do not drain the planet of resources. Stunting the earth's survival, trying to squeeze out too many resources, becomes a bottleneck on the economy. I personally have not figured out how to control people spending, but maybe you can think of a way.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #26
85. The skills and personality that make one a good programmer..
Do not necessarily make one a good manager, quite possibly just the opposite in fact.

Really good programmers are seldom also really good "people persons", and being a good manager is to a big extent about handling people and their conflicts, politics if you will.

My wife is a skilled manager and a very good "people person", she couldn't learn to write code to save her life, her mind simply doesn't work that way. On the other hand I'd be a terrible manager, I don't particularly like dealing with people and I'm about as politically skilled as your average eggplant.

The skillsets for manager and programmer simply do not overlap very much.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #20
59. I hate telling a 16 - 17 year old male this (because most of them assume it -wrongly)
but damn, you are one smart guy. How did this happen? I often wonder how people get through the gristmill that is our public school education and end up being able to think for themselves. Most don't.

I think with time, you're going to ditch Walmart for local. That's just an aside. I think you hit it spot on that we are too well off in the US. I'm not saying we're millionaires, especially those of us who take on the mantle of liberal, but even those who are on public assistance are making more than the vast majority of the world's population. We have come to believe our perks are necessities.
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Agreed!
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
27. Any "economist" that praises offshoring
should be asked specifically how that helps our economy overall. They should also be prepared to provide a 10 year statistical plan to back up their answer. These "economists" have taken too many P&L pills for the short term.
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GaYellowDawg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
30. Another consideration:
It looked like he'd like to abolish American tariffs, but he's not exactly talking about fair trade, which I feel is more important than free trade. Other countries have had tariffs on American goods for decades. If we're going to abolish ours, it would be extraordinarily foolhardy to do so without reciprocity. Should we open up our markets to their orange juice, shouldn't they open up parts of their markets to US products?
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
44. you can polish a turd all you want, but the name of this Free Trade Turd is simply
a race to the bottom, and we're well on the way to joining those people getting MURDERED all over the world fighting for the right to.....unionize!

is that simple enough for you, Flat Earth Friedmanite ghouls here on this thread?

jesus

here are a few highlights in the history of what you globalists stive for:

http://www.lutins.org/labor.html


13 January 1874
The original Tompkins Square Riot. As unemployed workers demonstrated in New York's Tompkins Square Park, a detachment of mounted police charged into the crowd, beating men, women and children indiscriminately with billy clubs and leaving hundreds of casualties in their wake. Commented Abram Duryee, the Commissioner of Police: "It was the most glorious sight I ever saw..."

14 July 1877
A general strike halted the movement of U.S. railroads. In the following days, strike riots spread across the United States. The next week, federal troops were called out to force an end to the nationwide strike. At the "Battle of the Viaduct" in Chicago, federal troops (recently returned from an Indian massacre) killed 30 workers and wounded over 100.

23 November 1887
The Thibodaux Massacre. The Louisiana Militia, aided by bands of "prominent citizens," shot at least 35 unarmed black sugar workers striking to gain a dollar-per-day wage, and lynched two strike leaders.

..............

they'll do ANYthing to keep their power, whether it be flat out mass murder, or conjure up fancy economic BULLSHIT 'theory' to rationalize their goal of keeping as much as they possibly can, and make it IMPOSSIBLE for the average worker to share equitably in the fruits of their own labor

got it?

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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. BV is a repuke troll who wants us all making minimum wage working for "the man".
His only sources are stats from The Bush Crime Family running government agencies. I don't understand why the DU mods can't recognize these trolls when economic and trade posts show up here.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. actually, I think BS like that which he serves up is a good thing, as long as
there are people who can demonstrate the invalidity of such specious arguments

I have no problem with that

it's the plainly obvious horseshit surrounding such arguments, that IGNORE the only real factor involved in labor relations the world over: power

as in, for example, teachers' unions in florida, which have no right to strike, hence no right to make decisions about the type of education the children of that state will have

we have 'strikable' unions in Illinois, but, because of NCLB, we have no say in how our curriculum is designed or implemented. it's just another example of what those in power try to do at every turn: take as much power away from as many people as possible, and concentrate it in the hands of the very few sitting at the top of the pyramid

sadly, economic darwinism, writ large, looks to be succeeding at an ever-accelerating pace
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BrightVictor Donating Member (52 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #45
54. Here we go again
Where do you suggest I get income statistics from? Oh, wait I forgot EVERYONE in the federal bureaucracy is a spy for you know who. Even those non-US controlled economic organizations are Free-trade Illuminati spies tricking us all to get jobs at Bohemian Grove selling Big Mac's to the reanimated corpse of Ronald Reagan. Ridiculous? Good.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
65. And he's still alive and well
To disrupt us another day. :eyes:
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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
73. Maybe here's the motivation?
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ColbertWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
46. I feel better knowing people like you are around to contradict...
...the negative stereotype of young people.

Your post is well thought-out and I especially like your closing statement, "I want you to point out the flaws in my argument. It can only help us both." We can all try to remember that when we jump into a discussion.

Thank you for posting.


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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
47. From JKG


Economics is extremely useful as a form of employment for economists.
John Kenneth Galbraith
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. it's as much a science as astrology. btw, my undergrad degree is
industrial economics
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. Industrial economics. Well that's micro so you at least do something useful for a living.


I never understood macro. The theory of comparative
advantage for instance.

A theory that states that there is a mutual advantage
to trade between two nations with asymmetrical GNP, trading
in the same export obviously ignores the fact that the
larger nation is militarily more powerful.

Funny how economists don't factor military superiority into
their models given how much of the world's wealth goes into
creating armies, navies and air forces.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. hah...never used it, and I studied mostly macro and accounting.
took as many poli sci/history classes as I could

hardly ever went to class anyway

when maniacs like the Chicago boys win all the Nobels, you need to find out how they're awarded, because all the theory in the world won't excuse what they've done in the name of the World Bank and the IMF

ask the bolivians, where they tried, in the process of taking over the water supply there, to PRIVATIZE the rainwater the peasants collected!
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Monk06 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. John Kenneth made a prediction in 'The Age of Uncertainty'

He and the Keynesian's were still in charge.
(as they have been since Breton Woods)

John commented that Milton Friedman was out
of fashion but that the sun would shine on
him again.

I thought that bon mot was funny in 1980.

I stopped lagging in 1981 when Reagan was
elected. I thought these guys take Friedman
and Von Mises seriously.

Von Mises is to 21st Century economics as
Count Gottfried von Bismarck was to 19th
Century geopolitics, a century behind his
time.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. The "Economics Nobel Prize" isn't a real Nobel Prize.
It was created in 1968, many years later then the real prizes, with a grant from Swedish central bank. It's true name is "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sveriges_Riksbank_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences_in_Memory_of_Alfred_Nobel

Some critics argue that the prestige of the Prize in Economics derives in part from its association with the Nobel Prizes, an association that has often been a source of controversy. Among the most vocal critics of the Prize in Economics is the Swedish human rights lawyer Peter Nobel, a great-grandnephew of Alfred Nobel.<25> Swedish economist Gunnar Myrdal and former Swedish minister of finance Kjell-Olof Feldt have also advocated that the Prize in Economics should be abolished.<26> Myrdal's objections were based on his view that the 1976 Prize in Economics to Milton Friedman and the 1974 Prize in Economics shared by Friedrich Hayek (both classical liberal economists) were undeserved, on the argument that the economics did not qualify as a science. If he had been asked about the establishment of the Prize before receiving it, Hayek stated that he would "have decidedly advised against it."<26><27>

Some critics claim the selection of recipients for the Prize in Economics is biased toward mainstream economics.<28><29> The Department of Economics at the University of Chicago has garnered nine of these Prizes—more than any other university—leading some critics to opine that such an outcome demonstrates either a bias, or the appearance of one, against candidates with alternative views.<29>

Milton Friedman was awarded the 1976 prize for his work on monetarism. The prize to Friedman caused international protests,<30> primarily in relation to a six-day trip he took to Chile in March 1975 where he gave lectures on inflation and met with many Chilean government officials, including the dictator Augusto Pinochet.<31> Four Nobel Prize laureates – George Wald, Linus Pauling, David Baltimore and Salvador Luria – wrote letters to the New York Times protesting the award in October 1976.<32><33>

The 1994 prize to John Forbes Nash caused controversy within the prize's selection committee because of his history of mental illness and alleged anti-semitism.<34> The controversy resulted in a change to the rules governing the committee in 1994: while Economics Prize Committee members had no term limit, they now serve for three years.<22>

Nassim Taleb criticises the Prize for promoting economic theories based on a misunderstanding of risk. He points to the 1990 Prize in Economics, awarded to William Sharpe and Harry Markowitz for theories that, Taleb says, had already been undermined by the stock market crash of 1987; the 1997 Prize, awarded to Robert C. Merton and Myron Scholes for their option pricing formula; and the 2003 Prize, awarded to Robert F. Engle for his "ARCH" method of prediction of volatility, which Taleb says underperforms relative to volatility forecasts made by ordinary traders.<35>


IMO the people who give the economics prize are biased towards Neo-Liberalism
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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. Do you laugh when these people promote access to foreign markets, when what they want
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 02:08 AM by Elwood P Dowd
is access to cheap labor, lax regulations, or elimination of local market competition.
You're darn tooten'.
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Gabi Hayes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. I do, to keep from crying over what they've done to the very most helpless
among the populace, as in:

AR-News: FORESTS ALERT: Ecuador Indians Battle Oil Giants for AmazonACTION ALERT: Ecuador Indians Battle Oil Giants for Amazon Issued December 19, 2003 By Glen Barry, Ph.D., President, Forests.org, Inc. TAKE ACTION: ...
lists.envirolink.org/pipermail/ar-news/Week-of-Mon-20031215/013453.html - 6k - Cached - Similar pages

Ecuador seeks U.S. Justice Dept. intervention in Texaco Oil Spill ...The Ecuadorian Indians' attorneys promptly filed a motion before Judge Rakoff for ... causing widespread devastation to the rainforest environment, ...
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_1997_Jan_22/ai_19047799 - 41k - Cached - Similar pages

Forest Protection Blog: ACTION ALERT: Ecuador Indians Battle Oil ...This is occurring in Ecuador as Indians in the Amazon fight to protect their land from marauding oil companies and elitist government officials. ...
forests.org/blog/2003/12/action-alert-ecuador-indians-b.asp - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

Daryl Hannah Meets With Ecuador President Over Oil Dump ...Ecuador Indians are suing oil giant Chevron because of their failure to ... the site first hand and witnessed a sad display of neglect and devastation. ...
www.ecorazzi.com/2007/06/05/daryl-hannah-meets-with-ecuador-president-over-oil-dump/ - 35k - Cached - Similar pages

Indians, Oil, and Politics: A Recent History of Ecuador - Google Books Resultby Allen Gerlach - 2002 - Business & Economics - 286 pages
The intensive search for the trees in far eastern Ecuador reached its height ... time he feared for the safety of oil workers, colonists, and Indians alike. ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=0842051082...

Texaco DevastationAmazon Indian's fears are exemplified by the fact that over the course of eight years of oil development in the northern Oriente, the influx of colonists ...
www.albionmonitor.com/11-14-95/texacoamazon.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages

Ecuador: protest and power | open Democracy News AnalysisNov 26, 2006 ... But since was created in 1986 we haven't ... Allen Gerlach, Indians, Oil, and Politics: A Recent History of ...
www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-protest/correa_ecuador_4134.jsp - 55k - Cached - Similar pages

León Zamosc - The Indian Movement and Political Democracy in ...The factors behind the rise of Ecuador's Indian movement, the broadening of ..... was triggered by the fall of oil prices and the devastation of the coast ...
muse.jhu.edu/journals/latin_american_politics_and_society/v049/49.3zamosc.html - Similar pages

Amazon.ca: Amazon Stranger: A Rainforest Chief Battles Big Oil ...A naturalist's paradise, the Cuyabeno wildlife reserve in eastern Ecuador was set aside for tourists, scientists and indigenous Indians. Then oil reserves ...
www.amazon.ca/Amazon-Stranger-Rainforest-Chief-Battles/dp/product-description/1558214062 - 84k - Cached - Similar pages

Oil Production and Environmental DamageThe Indians of Ecuador, located in the Amazon region of Oriente, ..... attacks on oil resources and production, with resulting environmental devastation, ...
www.american.edu/TED/projects/tedcross/xoilpr15.htm - 45k - Cached - Similar pages

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Elwood P Dowd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:26 AM
Response to Reply #53
56. Sometimes I think,
if there really is a heaven, that republican businessmen will somehow find their way there and turn it into hell.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #49
67. Science As a Tool
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 09:06 AM by Crisco
Most of the people who promote the use of science aren't promoting science, itself, as much as the use of scientific findings for strategic advantage. But what happens is, when it's taken out of the laboratory where all factors are under complete control of the scientist, and meets with unexpected results in the outside world, the promoter has two choices: give it up, or move to control the obstacles preventing their success. The latter is how we got the WTO.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
64. Specialization Leads To Stagnation In the Long Run
And stratification.

Examine the promotional ladder to success. At the very bottom are people doing specialized tasks. As you go higher up the ladder, the specialty becomes managing people and divisions of people. The paradox is the more manageable people are, the less able they are to innovate, and the less able they are to move up the ladder on their own merits.
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
68. In a way, you're both right.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 09:34 AM by Unvanguard
Charles Wheelan is referencing the theory of comparative advantage: if every country specializes in what it is best at, total productivity rises and everyone benefits. If you allow free trade, you make this much easier.

In the case of Brazil's oranges, if Brazil can produce them at a lower opportunity cost than the US (if it sacrifices fewer other goods to produce a unit of orange) it's more efficient to have Brazilian producers produce them, not US ones. This helps both the US and Brazil, because it allows both to concentrate more on what they're best at--for Brazil, orange production, for the US, something else (by the very nature of opportunity cost, there is ALWAYS something else). This lower opportunity cost is reflected in the lower price; thus, if the low Brazilian price undercuts US producers, the overall result is greater efficiency and greater welfare.

This argument is fairly solid theoretically. There are two major problems in practice, however.

The first is that capital and labor are not perfectly flexible: they cannot be shifted so easily from one industry to the next. Ideally, if US orange production was outcompeted by Brazillian orange production, all its facilities and all its workers would just shift to an industry in which the US had comparative advantage, and be just as productive there. Obviously, it doesn't work that way: skills useful in one job are not necessarily useful in another, facilities useful in one kind of production are not necessarily useful in another (and will probably be sold for much less than their original value, now that the industry is weakened.) The result is that many people are left behind: many workers are unemployed or underemployed, many regions get stuck in serious economic decline. This also tends to increase inequality. The best solution to this, however, is NOT protectionism: it is investment in job training for displaced workers.

The second is that comparative advantage assumes a level playing field. In the real world, this doesn't hold. Industries in developing countries are knocked out not because the countries aren't suited for them, but because their competitors from developed countries have advantages (like economies of scale) that they can't match. This may provide an immediate increase in efficiency (probably offset by the transition costs mentioned above), but in the long term it impedes development: it prevents the growth of industries that may ultimately prove more productive than whatever the country, in its state of underdevelopment, has comparative advantage in now. The best solution to this problem probably IS protectionism, but of a carefully targeted sort, and only for markets that have robust enough domestic competition to keep them healthy and efficient.
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SidneyCarton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
70. Ok, nothing useful to point out here....
But he mentions globalization in Chapter 11. Chapter 11 as in bankruptcy, which is what globalization has done to us. I love unintentional irony.
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izzybeans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
71. Economics is the smoke and mirror version of social science.
Edited on Thu Aug-07-08 10:36 AM by izzybeans
All ideology and mathematical abstraction without the substance of sociology or even political science.

The best economists are all sociologists at heart and most likely by training.
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workinclasszero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
74. They have been destroying our economy for years and years
Their job is just about complete too. America will become a third world banana republic run by the corporate raiders, for the corporate raiders! A fascist nirvana, a feat Hitler and Goebbels couldn't bring about but Bush, Rush and the whoring MSM got the damn job done!

Free trade globalism will be the death of us all. It has all but destroyed the middle class in this country. It started with blue collar jobs but it sure didn't stop there. Now a collage degree is worthless in many career fields thanks to H1B visas, indentured servitude IOW.

Not only that, look at all the tons of carbon being spewed into the air by thousands of massive tankers hauling all that chinese crap overseas to walmart. Thousands of diesel trucks spewing pollution on their way from Mexican farms to markets in America, you get the picture?

Multiply by thousands more...globalism is a world-ending environmental disaster in slow motion.

I wonder how China's economy is going to fair when they cant sell even their low cost junk over here??
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
75. When you think about it, there is no such thing as "American economic interests"
It's a convenient myth used to blur the fact that the economic interests of the average American worker are different than (in fact, diametrically opposed to) those of the American capitalist. For example, the owner of capital demands the highest return on investment in the shortest time possible, come what may. The worker, on the other hand, wants good pay, a steady job with benefits and healthy working conditions. These goals are inherently contradictory, and only side may prevail. In an ultra capitalist society like ours where profit is supreme, it is no surprise that the owners of capital are dominant.

Once you understand that US capitalists are not on your side just because they are Americans, the next question is: are the interests of workers in other countries opposed to yours just because they are "foreign"? The answer, of course, is no. The apparent conflict in the interests of, say, a Chinese worker and an American worker are the result of the organization of the world into competing capitalist camps based on nationalism and the fact that nationalism is actively shoved down people's throats. In fact, globalization has always taken place in one form or another and is not intrinsically harmful, but what's happening today is a situation where it is mostly in the interests of the owners of capital, not workers.

The kind of globalization we have today is one where capital is organized globally, free to move wherever it can to reap the highest return, no matter what the costs to workers. By pitting workers in one country against another, the capitalist is ensured of victory.

I'll give you an example: In 2006-07, Airbus planned to cut jobs in Europe to increase profits. The bosses planned it very cleverly, only announcing that jobs would be cut from locations in both Germany and France without specifying exactly how the cuts would be divided. Unfortunately, the unions in the respective countries reacted in a nationalist way. Each union (ridiculously) claimed their workers were somehow superior and deserved all the jobs, in fact *both* unions actually offered concessions to the management to retain jobs in their countries (i.e. loss of benefits and pay EVEN if the jobs stayed). Management loved it, people who were supposed to be *defending* the rights of workers (unions) were selling them out. Now, if the workers in both plants had *rejected* nationalism and refused to be divided, and gone on strike together ('solidarity'), they would have been able to better defend their interests. They failed because they (the workers) didn't organize internationally, while Airbus (management) acted in a unified manner.

The conclusion is straightforward: since the owners of capital are organized (and use their leverage) globally, so must workers. The nationalist idea of protecting workers in only one country is clearly doomed. So, you have to be (metaphorically speaking) a little less selfish and realize that the rights and conditions of people in far-off lands do affect yours (even if the TV says they're 'third-world' or suggests they're less human), albeit in a way that is not directly perceivable. Always remember that the owners of capital are masters are using barriers of nation, race and gender to divide the working class and keep us at each others throats while they continue to profit.

This is why what you're suggesting (classic nationalist protectionism) won't work. Apart from being infeasible for the reasons just mentioned, such protectionism invariably exacerbates tensions with other nations and ultimately leads to war. While the ruling classes love war as it is profitable for them, the working classes end up paying the price (in blood and dollars). So it's a losing proposition for the working class in the end.

:hi:
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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #75
77. Yeah, what you said. n/t
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
78. A lot of economics seems to be psudoscience, IMO.
There are too many biased assumptions, both implicit and explicit, that seem to take Western Corporate Capitalism as part of the "natural order of things." There is no conspiracy involved in these assumptions (isolationist conservatives and certain Marxists will try and claim otherwise but I think they are full of it). It's just human nature to think of the social and cultural norms of one's society as being "laws of nature," something the late Austrian philosopher Karl Popper (who is IMO unfairly bashed by those on the left simply because he was friends with Hayek and was somewhat critical of the logical-positivist epistemology underlying Keynesianism, he seems to have been a LEFT-libertarian more then anything, he was actually very sympathetic towards Marx's humanitarian side and his socio-economic analysis of Victorian-Age Capitalism, but though that the influence of Hegelianism corrupted his theorizing) talks about in his famous work The Open Society and It's Enemies.

Also, IMO there seems to be a tendency of economists fitting the data into their mental pigeon-holes, kind of how astrologers woo-woos, and conspiracy nuts explain away evidence against thier BS, such pigeon-hole-based thinking is typical of pseudoscience and dogmatic ideologies.
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Jim__ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-07-08 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
81. I think your argument is correct, but you need to refine it.
I'm talking about this argument:

Now, when you finally sort through the opinion and find the "facts," it's pretty biased still. What Wheelan is saying, as I interpret it, is that if we allowed Brazil to import their citrus without a tax on it, the whole industry would be better? He later goes on to suggest that by doing so would make the industry more competitive and so growers lower prices. Now let me get this straight. By taking away a tax which helps the government, you force American growers to lower prices, thus them making less money, thus being worse off financially, thus not being able to grow as much, thus forcing some farmers out of the business. This then increases unemployment, burdening the government even more, and now that "specialization" is gone from the system, their "human capital" (or the skills, work experience, traits, etc.) is irrelevant because they can't work. Now, didn't he JUST say that specialization is a GOOD thing? Not only does he contradict his own point, but that fact that so many other economists agree with him on this idea of lowering trade barriers it seems that they want to secretly make America a country in which their only products are foreign.


I think that its been pointed out above that economists believe that all countries will benefit from increased trade. One of the arguments that is used is Ricardo's argument of comparative-advantage. In short:

The principle of comparative advantage explains how trade can benefit all parties involved (countries, regions, individuals and so on), as long as they produce goods with different relative costs. The net benefits of such an outcome are called gains from trade. Usually attributed to the classical economist David Ricardo, comparative advantage is a key economic concept in the study of trade.


Ricardo was a very bright guy, and his argument is essentially correct. However, I think that his argument implictly assumes full employment in all countries involved. But, if you want to claim that trade will cause a disadvantage to the American worker, you need to address this argument.
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