A small rant about the pledge of allegiance.

[trof]

I belong to a small group we call Ancient Aviators of South Alabama.
We meet once a month at our local airport.
Bunch of old fart pilots who get together to shoot the breeze about past experiences.
We call that 'hangar flying'.

We usually have a speaker on some aviation related subject.
I'd guess the average age is around 70.
Still got several WWII & Korean 'War' types, and a lot of Viet Nam veterans.

Anyway...every meeting starts with the pledge.
And I've just come to think it's dumb.
It's always the same.
There's a little, wiry Marine pilot who always leads it.
Uber patriot.
EVERY time, he starts out "OK GUYS! AND SAY IT LIKE YOU MEAN IT!"
"I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE..."

OK, I don't sat the 'under God' part.
That ain't the way I learned it.
What's God got to do with it anyway?

And now, the whole damn pledge just seems stupid to me.
So, where do you (I) draw the line?
I could just stand up and say nothing.
But why stand up for something I don't think is relevant?
I could remain seated.
I can only imagine the resulting furor.

I'm thinking about just not going any more.
I'm no longer comfortable with people who support our government and 'leaders', no matter what.
"My country, right or wrong."
feh

I'm thinking I don't enjoy it, mainly because of the opening pledge, so why go?
I guess I've answered my question.
Thanks for listening.
;-)

[Selatius]

1. You should start a conversation with the World War 2 vets about what they think fascism really is.

They saw Hitler and his nazi thugs tear across Europe before he was finally defeated. Surely, they've come to recognize the tell-tale signs of creeping fascism. They see no comparison between the 1933 Enabling Acts and the USA Patriot Act?

[trof]

12. Have you ever talked to a WWII vet?

Most of the ones I know aren't into 'forgive and forget'.
They were well conditioned that the Japs and the Jerrys were the ENEMY.
And they still are.
OK, for good reason back then.
But STILL?

During one conversation, I told about working for a Japanese cargo airline and an 80 year old guy who was at Pearl during the attack wanted to kick my ass. If he hadn't had to hold on to his walker, I think he would have tried.

They just have a whole different mindset when it comes to 'patriotism'.

[Selatius]

13. Well, some of the more lucid ones have said something like this to me:

"I didn't defeat the fucking nazis just so we could elect a nazi president."

Yeah, back in those days people trusted the government a lot more than they do today, partly because politicians at the time made it work, for the large part, in the interests of the people. Surely, they don't think GWB is anywhere near FDR in terms of being a good president, do they?

[trof]

18. These guys don't seem to be that 'deep'.

They're still part of the 'Greatest Generation' (Thanks, Brokaw) and pretty much basking in the olden days of 'glory'.
Many, after their truly heroic and frightening wartime experiences, went on to lead humdrum lives.
Now they're sort of in the limelight.
More power to them.

Granted, I haven't been in any detailed political discussions with any of them. I can just kinda tell from the post meeting conversations that it would be useless.

[tjwash]

20. Really?

I know several WW2 vets. Hell my Father in Law is one of them, and he is one of the most even minded, fair and progressive people that I know. Him and his wife just finished organizing another march against the Iraq war. Never said anything like what you did, and we have had many conversations about his young days in the Navy (me being the ex-navy guy that I am you know).

My one WW2 Vet bud from church just took his wife on a vacation to Japan to celebrate their 50th anniversary and actually told me they had the time of their lives there.

I know several more too, and I never saw anything like you are describing from any of them.

[Truth4Justice]

28. My father was a WWII combat vet in the pacific. He didnt think that way al all.

[GreenPartyVoter]

2. Yeah, I'm not so in love with the pledge and opt not to say the Under God bit either

[Frances]

3. I empathize

I stopped going to an exercise group because rude, loudmouth Republicans kept echoing Rush Limbaugh comments.

[Frances]

8. One other suggestion

Today Obama said the pledge and I didn't mind at all. I think it's because when Obama said it, I thought of America as it should be.

Have you thought about suggesting that a different person lead the pledge at each meeting? If you had a turn to lead, you could emphasize "with liberty and justice for all."

I am guessing that the Marine's attitude is more of a problem for you than the pledge itself.

I said those words every morning for 12 years in my segregated Alabama public school classes. Never once did anyone mention how ironic these words were.

[trof]

14. So did I, in my Alabama segregated school.

It was mindless back then.
We also said The Lord's Prayer.
Also mindless.

When you're six years old and in 'real' school for the first time and you see that's what they do, that's what YOU do.

Yes, the Marine's attitude grates.
But I understand where he's grounded and coming from, and what his mindset is, and so...whatever.

No, it's more than that.
I've read about where the pledge originally came from.
Basically to sell flags.
Look it up in Wiki.

[Parche]

4. You Are Ok In My Book Trof

Any TWA Pilot is awesome
and I agree you dont have to say the pledge, it doesnt make you non patriotic.......
Here is to TWA and Trof!!!!!
:patriot:
:hi:

[trof]

15. Parche, you are my best audience and my biggest fan.

And I appreciate it.
Seriously.
Thank you.

[annabanana]

5. It really is a shame. Does anyone else in the group feel the same as you?

Maybe they do and are intimidated by the uber-guy against speaking out. Tell them it was written by Socialists...

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian Socialist, and the cousin of Socialist Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance

I've always thought that if we were going to pledge to anything it ought to be to The Constitution, the blueprint of the Country.

(see my tag)

[trof]

16. I've seriously thought about doing that.

It's hard for us to find speakers every month.
Sometimes we don't get one, and then the guy who kinda runs it just asks for tales from the members.
Those are usually the best.

So I could volunteer to 'be' the program speaker, and they'd be relieved to have someone willing.

And I could tell them the origins of the pledge.
HooWee.

I think they'd try to lynch me.
If I didn't respect these guys so much, I would really be tempted.
But they're too old.
Very near the end of their lives.
Why should I be the one to mess with their long held core (and corps) values?
No, I don't think so.

[Solly Mack]

6. I stopped saying it in the 3rd grade

Never much cared who I offended by not saying it...and for a time in my teens took great pleasure in their offense. Now...still don't say it. Still don't care who that offends. But now I just as soon as not be around those who would take offense. Their taking offense, and their insistence that I participate, goes deeper than just the pledge. It's an attitude of authority...that I must say the pledge...must do this...must do that...or there's something wrong with me.

[GoneOffShore]

7. I stopped saying "The Pledge" a long time ago.

Probably has something to do with my school winning the Francis Bellamy Award back in the 1960's.

And the fact that when I was in elementary school they added the whole "under God" nonsense.

[EC]

9. Just go late.

Like right after they say the pledge.

[Mr_Jefferson_24]

10. I would venture to guess you aren't the only one in the group...

...who does not have any enthusiasm for reciting a pledge of loyalty to an illegitimate cabal of criminals.

It's a silly nationalistic custom anyway.

[tbyg52]

11. If I were going to pledge allegiance, I would like it to be to the Constitution. nt

[isentropic]

17. I was in high school when UG was added to it and it pissed me off enough that I quit reciting

the thing (I never much liked the idea of worshipping a piece of cloth to begin with.) I'm an old phart pilot too and I guess you know perfectly well we're oddballs in that way...most pilots are rightwing nutballs (who drink like fish...go figure that one out)

[trof]

19. Well, kiss my grits! Welcome to DU.

Yep, most of the pilots I know are right wing.
We're exceptions.
Airline?
Military?
Charter?
Corporate/
Private?
There are a few of us around on DU.
Welcome aboard.

[isentropic]

25. Charter then corporate. I was the pilot and also design engineer for an optical equipment

manufacturer. Mostly drove a MU2 and a few other small planes. When they sold out I left and started my own engineering business and still do that and fly my own Cessna 310 not as much as I used to though, 8 miles a gallon is tough noogies unless I can find a few peoples to share the cost of avgas. haha

[SheilaT]

21. I no longer say the Pledge.

I've even gotten so I no longer stand up when it's being said.

I was also in school -- Catholic school -- when the Under God part was added, and I recall the nuns being quite distressed about that.

[valerief]

22. My Pledge is just a lemon wood-cleaner.

I Pledge a region
Two of the legs
Of the nightstand and my mirror
And do my coffee table
And wicker stand
One cleaner
Residue-less
With luster and citrus
For all

[LWolf]

23. Keep going.

Some people don't think beyond their life-long conditioning to question the pledge. That doesn't make them bad people.

Not everyone attaches the same meaning to the symbol; that doesn't make them bad people, either.

I have to stand for the pledge every day of my working life. I'm a teacher. It's required. So I stand, but I don't say it.

Some of my students say it, some don't. Those of us who don't stand there silently.

One of my students (6th - 8th graders) asked me why I don't say the pledge last year. My reply:

"How many times do I need to repeat the same promise? If I meant it the first time, I'll honor it. If I didn't, it doesn't matter how many times I say it; it's meaningless, and a waste of time. I feel like my country doesn't trust me when I have to make the same promise every single day."

[isentropic]

26. Hey if you don't do it 5 times a day you can't really mean it.

good grief doesn't that sound wacky?

[valerief]

27. You're not talking about sex, are you? nt

[LWolf]

33. I just means that American culture doesn't value

honesty, sincerity, or integrity.

:(

[trof]

30. That's the best explanation I've heard. Thanks.

[LWolf]

32. You're welcome.

:hi:

[rucky]

24. Just show up late. n/t

[Uncle Joe]

29. Maybe you could suggest to your friends, that y'all come up with a

Pledge to the Constitution, if they really like pledging to something.

This is what most everyone swears an oath to defend against all enemies foreign and domestic anyway so it seems logical to me, if you must have a pledge, this would work better. A flag's symbolism can be lost meaning different things to different people.

Here's a rough draft I just thought up.

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States.
And the More Perfect Union for which it stands.
That all people are created equal under the law and no one is above the law.

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States
And the government of We the People for which it stands.
No dictator, nor monarch, nor oligarch, nor religious leader, nor colored cloth is above the people.

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States
And the Justice, Domestic Tranquility, Common Defense, General Welfare and Blessings of Liberty for which it stands.
No corporation, nor foreign power is above these national virtues.

I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States
With the firm belief that this being our definition of a more perfect union.
The right of foreign nations to choose their own definition for them selves without external interference as we are not above them.

Thanks for the thread, trof.

[freestyle]

31. If they're mostly military, they already pledged to the Constitution.

The oaths for President, members of Congress, members of the military and federal employees are not terribly different from one another and all include a pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution.

This is why it is particularly galling for congress members to venerate the pledge of allegiance. They know what the only pledge that counts is.