I was an airline pilot for 30 years. Today, it scares me.

[trof]

I was a pilot with TWA.
Trans World Airlines.
If you're over 20 maybe you heard of it.
You can read about its demise here:
http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2008/06/09/companies-that-vanished-twa-a-story-of-american-capitalism/

What I am seeing now scares the hell out of me.
Every time my daughter and her family fly, I'm afraid for them.
If I can possibly avoid it, I'll never board an airliner again.
Ever.

The first two concerns of airlines used to be 1. passenger safety, and 2. passenger comfort.
Now, in a desperate effort to just survive, the bottom line is all.

When I hear that they're now charging extra for baggage, seat selection, water, and COFFEE (For GOD'S sake! Airlines RUN on coffee.), I have to wonder where else they're cutting corners that we don't know about.
Inspections?
Maintenance?
Training?

As has been put forth here in other threads, I am now in favor of a nationalized airline.

[samdogmom]

1. Nationalized? Have you been following the Blackwater debacles?

Maybe a nationalized airline will work---but it can't be a U.S. managed airline--I vote for Quantas from Australia to run our "nationalized" airline. (They've never had a crash!)

[Forkboy]

6. No crashes, but they're cutting corners too.

They've had five emergency landings in the last few months, and then today there's this...

Qantas Airways chief executive Geoff Dixon said today that his airline is “probably the safest” in the world after Australia’s aviation agency launched a review of its safety standards.

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority announced the review yesterday after a Boeing 767 with 200 passengers on board returned to Sydney airport soon after takeoff on Saturday because air traffic controllers saw fluid streaming from a wing.

On July 25, an explosion on board a Qantas Boeing 747 en route from London to Australia blew a hole in the fuselage and caused rapid decompression in the passenger cabin.

And last week, an Australian domestic flight was forced to return to the southern city of Adelaide after a wheel-bay door failed to close.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/latest-world-news/2008/08/04/quantas-chief-defends-airline-after-triple-scare-91466-21460734/

I'm sure they're as safe, if not safer, than most other airlines...but I doubt any of them are as safe as they were before the prices of fuel skyrocketed.

[trof]

23. Seems to me Blackwater is privatized, not nationalized.

I think we have people just as smart as the Aussies.

[samdogmom]

49. Are you saying FEMA ran the Katrina response well?????

Me? A nationally run airline? NO THANK YOU! I'd opt for a foreign airline any time I had the chance if it was between the good ol' U.S.A. airline or one from another country.

[readmoreoften]

53. That's because they hollow out every nationalized service so we'll have to privatize it.

Those foreign airliners are largely nationalized

[samdogmom]

59. So why would we want a "nationalized" airline if the government

"hollows out" every nationalized service?

Would you fly a USA-run airline? I'm not sure I'd be eager to get on board.

I'd like to think that with Obama as President, government-run programs could become well-run, trustworthy entities again...but under the current administration, I'd never step foot on a nationally-run airline.

[Overseas]

74. Bush-Cheney would be delighted to hear you oppose nationalization. That was their goal.

Bush-Cheney worked hard to push privatization. Put their frat buddies and Liberty University grads in charge of major government agencies in order to run them into the ground and enhance citizens' mistrust of government. They put Brownie in charge, don't forget. If they can get more people to believe that the government can't do anything right, then private profit can still rule.

They privatized a lot of military services with Halliburton and KBR and we got horrible service at very expensive rates. Otherwise known as war profiteering. No-bid contracts for friends of the Bush gang and obedient Republican legislators.

If the military performed their construction in-house like they used to, there wouldn't be electrocutions in the shower, moldy food and roaches climbing the walls of military hospitals. If military supplies were managed in-house, we wouldn't have had to have soldiers' families run bake sales to pay for armor for our own troops.

If Republicans can get us to mistrust government services then they hope to convince us not to let our health care be nationalized, and the health-maintenance-for-profit system can continue to charge more and waste more. Bankruptcy be damned. At least it's not run by the government, eh?

[Aviation Pro]

71. Qantas also flies a magnitude less percentage than U.S. carriers....

...whenever you compare national carriers you have to compare number of flight operations that are conducted.

[Overseas]

75. Blackwater is a leading recipient of PRIVATIZED contracts.

They are an example of why we need to re-nationalize many services. They are very private.

[Angleae]

90. No crashes, just explosions in mid air.

[phantom power]

2. I have been told...

that the plane pilots still have final authority on whether to fly. But I agree with you, I can only assume they'll try to cut corners on maintenance if they think they can get away with it. They're all looking pretty desperate.

You heard about the pressure to fly with lower fuel reserves, right? To save more weight.

[trof]

25. Kinda. "Captain's authority".

But corporate can exert a hell of a lot of pressure on the captain's decision.

Fuel reserves is a good example.

[mike_c]

3. as I've said before, I've come to absolutely HATE air travel...

...and yes, I'm old enough to have fond memories of flying TWA. My experience (and bias) notwithstanding, trof-- your statement is pretty powerful!

[Thothmes]

27. Agree, use to be rather pleasant

now sorta ranks somewhere between colonoscopy and root canal as something I want to do.

[TahitiNut]

76. I've flown since the early 50s (United, prop, LAX to DTW) ...

... (actually it was Willow Run and LAX was something else, but) and have flown many tens of thousands of miles since, both domestic and international, much on business. At the time, the worst flight I ever took was the MAC flight (all military) taking me to Viet Nam. Cattle Car. The most recent flights I've taken (post-9/11) were WORSE. I never thought I'd see it. In the 50s, we dressed up like going to church on Sunday morning. I got to visit the cockpit while in flight and was given a set of wings. (Yes, I was only about 10 years old.) If I tried to visit the cockpit today, I'd be shot dead. In my view, that actually exemplifies the huge change, no matter what rationale is used.

After UAL screwed up something or another on my flight on twelve consecutive business flights in the early 80s, I permanently boycotted them. They were appalling. I'm not talking about a single hub/spoke, I'm talking about MANY different routes. Nasty, condescending, indolent, arrogant flight attendants. When I flew American Airlines (and most others), the NEVER screwed up and were reliably pleasant and professional. Northwest was the second from the bottom. Now, they're all sewage ... with Southwest being only somewhat less so.

Today, I'd rather walk.

[Taverner]

4. I agree - my mom was a Flight Attendant for TWA

We need at least Re-Regulation

We need at best a National Airline

Or it will be thrust upon us like Amtrak - and we know how well that worked.

[Skink]

8. Only thing wrong with Amtrack is we let Republicans run it from time to time.

[Taverner]

10. Yes but their prices are astronomical

No less than flying - usually more in fact

[Dr.Phool]

81. I took Amtrak a couple of months ago for the first time.

It was an enjoyable trip. Tampa to Florence, SC. It took about 10 hours (the only drawback), about the same as it takes to drive. And it was cheaper than flying or driving. And I drive a Prius.

[NuttyFluffers]

99. depends, but Amtrak is usually cheaper than driving or flying from where we are

certain things are more expensive though, like hopping to Chicago or NYC, but that makes sense. little things like SF Bay to Reno or Fresno or Sac are generally cheaper. LA is a weird one, but that's because SF to LA is a major commuter hop and airlines are loathe to lose that to cars or anything else. but even then, it's almost on par.

what you really pay for is the time, though. which isn't that big of an issue if you allocate for it. for example, traveling by night in a train makes life easy with all the room to stretch out in. anything past 400+ miles though and you really should consider flying just to save on the time alone. granted if this was the East Coast we'd have it a lot better; hopping from Philly to NYC is really a breeze, as is from NYC to Boston, especially with Acela to speed things up a bit. the lack of hassle at La Guardia or JFK seems worth it alone.

[trof]

26. Wow. We might have worked together?

[Taverner]

30. Ever do the LA->Heathrow Polars?

That was her regular shift.

She was a REMO.

[trof]

62. One, I think. Many years ago.

[Hekate]

5. Dad worked for Lockheed for 44 years.Now maintenance is outsourced to places like the Philippines...

I can't remember how many years ago I read that is what our major airlines started doing, but it raised the hairs on the back of my neck. There are so many things wrong with that scenario I can't even begin to enumerate them.

Hekate

[2KS2KHonda]

12. Well, Lockheed (before the Martin merger) hadn't made a civilian plane for 40 years

I guess the L-1011 was the last one. Here's my old girl (she's older than I am)

[Hekate]

54. He worked there from the 1940s to the 1980s, was cleared to work on President Truman's plane once...

Dad was a funny bird (so to speak) -- he really wouldn't talk about his work very much at all, his excuse (more or less) being his secret clearance, but the actuality being it suited his innately secretive nature. About all I really knew was that he was an inspector-supervisor who never forgot any aspect of anything he ever worked on, and that his career spanned radio-tubes to electronic components. It was his world, not his family's.

Lockheed got a Navy contract in 1957, which is how I ended up being raised in Hawaii. Thank you, Lockheed.

Hekate

[trof]

29. L-1011 is the BEST commercial plane I ever flew.

A pilot's airplane.
Landed one at Heathrow with zero ceiling, zero visibility.
All on autopilot.
FAA certified for that.
The instrumentation was fantastic.
Loved it.
Hated to see it go.

[2KS2KHonda]

38. Wow, CAT3? When was that?

:D

[trof]

61. Maybe mid 80s?

I checked out on the 747 around 1987 or '88, and was on the 1011 before that.

Heathrow was totally socked in.
According to ground control, we were the only airplane to land that morning.
And I sure announced that to our passengers.
;-)

[DemoTex]

67. The finest TWA (Lockheed) aircraft ever, IMO: L-1049 Constellation

Lockheed Constellation ("Connie")

Of course, I'm an old Lockheed guy from way back (SP-2E and JetStar).

[2KS2KHonda]

69. Short final & quad engine failure!

:rofl:

[DemoTex]

92. Right over the numbers (@ KSAN?)!

Perfect timing. Perfect fuel planning. A DFC for that guy.

Nevermind: He forgot to plan for taxi.

[valerief]

7. Your right, but if you have to travel by motor or rail and need to get over

a bridge, well, you run into the same no-maintenance problems. Never know when that bridge will collapse.

I'm going to hills and herd sheep for the rest of my life. F@ck this scary sh!t.

[2KS2KHonda]

9. Well, I was a corporate pilot for 30 years and so I have a different perspective

but I have a LOT of good friends who learned to fly "the hard way"...who went with airlines. The ones who stayed there are now retired thanks to the "out at 60" rule and some just ran out of jobs when Eastern, Braniff and Pan Am folded.

Airlines were effectively run by pilots (executives yes, but pilots) for many years but when they let the bean counters take charge, things changed...drastically (as you know) but I don't think nationalizing them is the right answer. With a few exceptions, government-run airlines are shit. The reason for that is most governments have even LESS motivation to operate an airline in a safe and efficient manner than a reasonably well regulated private company does. I'm not at all sure I'd feel comfortable if all airlines were run by the Department of Defense that couldn't manage to locate any of 4 hijacked airplanes on 9/11.

[EFerrari]

24. Rumsfelds answer to Abu Graib was to ban photography.

I agree with you.

[2KS2KHonda]

36. Yeah...the "known unknowns", the "unknown unknowns"...all that shit

will make your head spin. I just want that SOB in the dock at The Hague along with ...well, you know.
:grr:

[Wednesdays]

97. Down with big gummint, eh?

"I'm not at all sure I'd feel comfortable if all airlines were run by the Department of Defense that couldn't manage to locate any of 4 hijacked airplanes on 9/11."

Makes ya wonder who was running the DoD at the time, doesn't it? See post #74...rinse, repeat.

[Parche]

11. TWA

I sold TWA alot, they were one of my favorites, my sales rep was a good friend of mine

We took the inaugural flight PDX-ANC sat in first, the fare went to charity, and returned on the same turn around flight....it was fun, 1998
then they took me to Anchorage again, with alot of people, had a great time.....
I also flew them to Chicago once,

When I was at Adidas, I sold their business class alot for the people travelling to Frankfurt,as
we had a great business class negiotiated rate.

The sales people in STL would waive the 14day advance most of the time for me, and I would sell tons of coach!!!

Those were the days.........




:woohoo: :woohoo:

Until American purchased them, and ripped STL and other routes
just like they did with Reno Air, and Air Cal

[Aviation Pro]

13. A friend of mine at Delta....

...had seven write ups on a recent flight into New York airspace. Yes, I am apprehensive everytime I launch.

[jmowreader]

32. How the hell do you get seven writeups on one flight and keep your job?

[Aviation Pro]

70. God knows, it was a tough day....

....with a lot of weather. The FAA guy must have cut the crew some slack.

[CountAllVotes]

14. I remember TWA!

and yes, it used to be a luxury one looked forward to to fly. Last I heard some two-bit airline is now charging $7.00 for a blanket and a pillow for flights lasting longer than 3 hrs.

To me, that IS the living end! :mad: :argh: :grr:

Needless, to say, I won't be flying anywhere soon. My last experience was a nightmare!

:kick:

[RollWithIt]

15. I think you're overreacting... here's why...

I worked for Delta as a ticket agent for three years from march 2001 to june 2004. It was the worst job I ever had. The employees were miserable, the customers were miserable (or angry), and even the security people were miserable. During that period of time I saw security increase 10-fold. Unless the scanners were broke and the TSA agents fell asleep at their desks I don't see any terrorist attacks coming soon. Unless is was an inside job of some sort. The airlines are decreasing the number of flights they operate or merging with each other. What does that mean from safety standpoint? First off the airline fleets get thinned out. The older planes get discontinued or sold in Africa/South America. The airlines gambled on the late nineties early 21st century flying boom. They lost. The reality is that in order to be safe AND profitable, they have to charge for everything. You want to check another 50 pound bag? That's gonna be $50.00. Fourth bag? That will be $200. It ALWAYS should have been that way. I personally saw families show up with 8, 9, and10 suitcases and pay 1/20 what they would have paid for freight shipping.

As for charging for pillows, the damn things are havens for disease. So they get thrown away quickly. Complete loss within a month. This way they buy nicer ones in bulk and they get thrown away immediately.

[PA Democrat]

16. Pilots have been complaining that airlines are cutting the amount of fuel carried to dangerously low

levels in an effort to save money. I flew a lot in the late 70's through the late 80's for business. Now I hate taking even an occassional flight. I hate the security hassle and I too have concerns over safety. I feel for anyone who works for the airlines these days.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24034468/

[carp]

17. I fly often and feel safe. I don't want Government Doctors or Government pilots. NT

[trof]

22. Just keep that feelin', bud.

Everything's OK.
No prob.
Move along.
Nuthin' to see here.
:sarcasm:

[Michigan-Arizona]

35. Flying this coming Sunday

Well this bit of information made me feel really good being I already hate to fly, lol. A friend I grew up with her brother John Wright was a TWA pilot.

[Skittles]

56. damn, trof

couldn't you have waited until after my Sep trip from DFW to O'Hare next month? :o

I hear you though trof. And I do remember TWA - very well, back in the days when flying wasn't such a trying experience.

[trof]

68. The odds are still with you, in spite of everything that's wrong.

Fly safe!

[Ikonoklast]

34. Tell that to the Armed Forces

They have both, and are some of the best and brightest.

Ayn Rand called, she asked for you.

[2KS2KHonda]

37. That's a shitty thing to say. What ever gave you the idea that military pilots are particularly

good? Hint: they are not. Most of them are "trained" over a few weeks in one kind of plane and have little understanding about how their mounts actually work. I mean nuts and bolts - slash - seat of the pants, the kind of rapport between man and machine that produces a true synergy. Automatons are okay when it comes to dropping bombs on wedding parties from 20000 feet...they don't have to see the results.

[Ikonoklast]

43. Put me on 'ignore'

Have a nice stay.

[carp]

45. I have a brother in the Air Force going to pilot training right now.

I have to add you to the ignore list because of that "dropping bombs on wedding parties" comment. Have a nice day.

[bdab1973]

94. WHAT? You are out of your mind

I am a military pilot, and what you just posted is very far from the truth.

First, I had to finish Initial Flying Training, where I had to get 50 hours in a Cessna 172. I had to have a CIVILIAN instructor sign off that I was ready to learn to fly jets. I then attended Undergraduate Pilot Training, and spent 6 months flying the T-37 Tweet, then another 6 months learning to fly the T-1A Jayhawk. Each day, they would pick students at random and stand them up in the infamous "stand-up", and give you a scenario that you'd have to work your way to a safe conclusion. If you missed a step, or said something procedurally or factually incorrect, you got sat down and couldn't fly for the day. If you screwed up 3 stand-ups, you got to see the commander for possible elimination. If you failed three daily flights, same thing...had to been seen by the commander for possible elimination. If you failed a checkride, you had to fly with the flight commander...if he failed you, you had to see the squadron commander. At the end of each phase, I knew both the T-37 and the T-1 like the back of my hand.

Then following that, I attended formal training in first the C-21, and then 4 years later transitioned to the C-130. The C-21 is a Learjet 35 and the first half of the course, we attended the same training course civilian Learjet pilots attend at CAE in Fort Worth, TX. Then, on top of what civilian pilots get, we had to go to Mississippi for another 3 weeks of actual flying training. When it was time to upgrade to Aircraft Commander (PIC), we had an in-house unit upgrade where we had to fly 5 flights in the left seat as acting aircraft commander under the supervision of an instructor...when that was done, we had to undergo an OME, or Operational Mission Evaluation, where our "co-pilot" was a flight examiner. We flew what's called a "local proficiency sortie" once a month...that included 2 hours of shooting precision/non-precision/circling approaches, VFR patterns, partial flap landings, and single-engine landings and go-arounds. Part of the local proficiency sortie included reviewing systems for 2 hours with an instructor. When it was time to upgrade to instructor, I attended CAE again for another 3 weeks (on top of going to CAE every year for refresher sim training, just like the civilian Lear pilots). I taught other pilots on the LPS sorties, and taught systems probably 2-3 days a week. How often in your corporate career did you sit and teach/talk systems? Or how often did you go take your airplane and shoot approaches for 2 hours for practice? Probably not often. We also did OSTs, or Off-Station Trainers, and these were usually tailored to get our pilots trained on specialty airfields, or high-altitude airfields. We would run 2-3 of these trainers a year, allowing all of our pilots to get experience flying into mountainous airfields with complex climb-out instructions and gradients, as well as international OSTs to places like Quito Ecuador and Teguchigalpa Honduras. Neither of those airfields are for the faint of heart or for inexperienced crews...both are special cert fields for airlines...and we trained our pilots in places like that. If we were a bunch of idiots as you imply, then I should be dead by now.

The C-130 training took me 6 months, and involved approximately 70 hours of flight training and 3-4 weeks of simulator training. I am an evaluator pilot in the C-130 now, and I know that airplane inside and out...how it all works, how the engines work, how the props work, how the electrical system works, how the hydraulics work...I can tell you where the one-way check valves are in the hydraulics system and why it's there. I can explain to you all the rules and procedures for flying in the weather. Any of our pilots could explain to you what various aerodynamics and performance-related things are...for example, our minimum control speed in the air on 3 engines, why the #1 engine is the critical engine, what defines refusal speed, critical engine failure speed, minimum field length for max effort takeoff distance, etc etc etc. We are trained to be very disciplined and very well trained in our aircraft...you can't fly a C-130 in a formation of 8 other airplanes at 300 feet AGL, and airdrop pallets onto a small drop zone, and do that successfully time and time again with very few accidents, without knowing what you're doing.

We are VERY well trained and to insinuate that we're "automatons" that have "little understanding" of our aircraft is an insult and inaccurate. We have very high standards for our pilots and other crew positions. There is a reason why airlines will hire a military pilot with much less flying experience than most civilian-trained pilots. I know you are a "former" corporate pilot, and I'm guessing you don't have a military background or else you wouldn't be so ignorant. The military trains its pilots to a high standard. There are always a few bad eggs and a few idiots out there...but we generally sideline them and make them permanent copilots...their careers usually don't go anywhere. But the vast majority of the people I have flown with while in the military are very professional, well trained, and great pilots. I would challenge you to put yourself in that position and imagine if you were not well trained...it just wouldnt work.

[trof]

100. "trained over a few weeks"? Must've changed a lot since I was in.

My USAF pilot training course lasted 55 weeks.
a little over a year of my life.
It's the most difficult school I've ever attended.

In addition to the stick and rudder stuff, we had exhaustive classes in aerodynamics, aviation physiology, navigation, electronics, hydraulics, engines, airframes, etc., etc.

The stick and rudder part covered contact flying (stalls, spins, all that fun stuff), instruments, formation, cross country navigation.
You get the idea.

Several of my classmates couldn't cut it and washed out.

In addition to earning my USAF wings, after a short written FAA test I also came out with my commercial license (multi-engine, centerline thrust - I was qualified in T-37s and T-38s), and instrument rating.

THEN I returned to my home ANG squadron for a 90 day checkout in the F-84.
So...about a year and 3 months after I'd begun, the Alabama Air National Guard was ready to turn me loose, all by myself, with one of their airplanes.

When I eventually decided on a career as an airline pilot, being an Air Force pilot counted a LOT with TWA and all the airlines. They would rather get military pilots above all others.

In addition to our extensive training and flying experience, most of us had already been faced with making life-or-death decisions and had evidently made the right ones.

You have a very warped view of military pilots.
Automatons?
BTW, never bombed a wedding party, although I have BEEN bombed at a wedding party.
Too much champagne.
;-)

[donco6]

103. Uh, pardon me, but you're insane.

I work with former AF pilots. My niece is in the AF. Their training is quite good. I don't know where you got your info, but it's bogus.

[librechik]

42. Government Docs are good enough for our vets. Why not you?

You caught that brain fever that's been going around. Drink some more Koolaid; that'll help.

[Skittles]

57. gawd carp, are you still here?

repuke troll-life around here is too long these days

[RadiationTherapy]

85. BOOOORRRRRIIIIINNNG. How your government education?

Roads?

[warren pease]

106. And that bias would be the result of your extensive research into the pros and cons of...

...privatized airlines and for-profit medical systems vs. their publicly managed and funded counterparts?

Or would that be because of your unremittingly horrible experiences flying Air France and suffering the indignities of being treated by the WHO's top-rated national health care system in the world rather than the 37th?

Note that the US, with its usual obnoxious and unjustified self-satisfaction, smugly maintains its privatized medical system -- which is also the most expensive medical system per capita on the planet (more than $7,000 annually) although outcomes have become uncomfortably third-worldish over the past couple of decades -- is still the greatest system on earth.

And why would that be? Well shit... It's American, so it's the best by definition.

And other such ideological drivel that diverts attention from unflattering facts like this study that tells us about 22,000 people die in the US each year because they don't have medical insurance.

Their only access to the US medical system is the ER, which is great for trauma but isn't very good at handling a cancer patient's long-term treatment program.

No matter; if you can't pay the obscene premiums, deductibles and copays, tough shit. You're not worth saving because you're not contributing your share to increase profitability for an industry that grossed $2.2 TRILLION in 2006. And then squandered around a third of that money -- a modest $733 billion -- on crap that has nothing to do with performing their alleged goddamn jobs: paying medical expenses for rate payers.

So what's the net result of this disastrous scam? Here's what the WHO had to say in this news release:

"The position of the United States is one of the major surprises of the new rating system," says Christopher Murray, M.D., Ph.D., Director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence for Health Policy. "Basically, you die earlier and spend more time disabled if you’re an American rather than a member of most other advanced countries."

So how's that life, liberty and pursuit of happiness charade working out for you here in privatization nirvana?


wp

[malaise]

18. They're now charging for pillows and blankets as well

I remember those good old days too. My first job was in the airline industry. How I loved those cheap tickets from the world's airlines. I remember the excitement of seeing my first 747 and then my first flight to London on Air India 747. Damn the service was something else back in the days - full course meals, Bloody Marys etc.

Like you I hate flying now.

[Auggie]

19. What's the consensus regarding non-U.S. carriers? Air France, Lufthansa...

I haven't flown internationally in many, many moons.

[mnhtnbb]

55. Air New Zealand was the best international flight I'd ever taken--in 1994--for service

[TahitiNut]

77. I've flown Air France, Quantas, Lufthansa, Air India, British Airways, and other foreign carriers ..

... at least once. In first class, NOTHING can beat Air France flying TO Paris. Nothing. In terms of good service in coach, Air India was awesome ... but the smell of incense and curry (yes, indeed!) was hard to deal with. I felt most secure (professionalism and courtesy and cleanliness/condition) with Quantas. ALL of them were equal or better than U.S. carriers, imho.

[NuttyFluffers]

101. Singapore is best, then SwissAir, then KLM; coach and 1st class, of course

but this is old information. times have really changed. is SwissAir even around anymore? KLM? i'm going on Singapore Airlines again soon (coach), so i'll let you know if their service has maintained or slacked. i'm hearing good things about EVA, some Taiwanese airline. the worst one i experienced was either Air Iberia or Alia, the Jordanian airline. nah, easily Alia, horrible flight.

i'm hearing British Airways and Heathrow are shit lately, and they weren't so hot back in the 80s either, IMHO, so i'd likely pass if i could. i've heard nothing but good things from Lufthansa -- not glorious, but never bad. Air France is a toss up; they do one flight real well -- going to Paris. yet from my experience and others everything else they do is pretty embarrassing; surly and dismissive about covers it. Air Italia (is that still around?) was ok, but y'know, expectations weren't that high to begin with.

in Saudi we were using the old Air California planes to fly to the "mall" at Al Kobar. they left the citrus fruit logo on, and we could never really place it until we came back to america and saw some defunct airline "wings" pin collections. i always thought it was some orange radial circle with petals, like some sort of chrysanthemum. it was interesting to piece that bit of history together.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

20. Wall Street

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0094291/quotes

Bud Fox: Why do you need to wreck this company?
Gordon Gekko: Because it's WRECKABLE, all right? I took another look at it and I changed my mind!

Greed is good... :cry:

[AllentownJake]

21. Expedia and Travelocity

turned airline traffic into a commodity amongst the older carriers. De-regulation before that didn't help either. Good customer service was a selling point before that. Now its overhead because people click on the cheapest price.

[2KS2KHonda]

40. They didn't -cause- it, they just took advantage of it. The airline business is very unique:

It only started about 80 years ago and it very well might disappear before another 80 go by.
(Pretty much the same as oil companies)

[tbyg52]

28. I've been afraid to fly since Raygun busted up the PATCO strike, nt

[Turn CO Blue]

31. Not nationalized - but subsidize the industry, yes.

And it would be very UNSAFE if airlines really did run on coffee (I know you're joking) but I've been in this industry for 11 years myself, and strongly feel that pilots should NOT be allowed to hype up on caffeine. We do not let the members of my daughter's drum and bugle corps EVER have caffeine (tea or coffee). It's unhealthy.

The rest of your OP(hyping up on scaring people about the state of safety) is pure crap. The statistics and LACK OF ACCIDENTS prove that this industry is EXPONENTIALLY SAFER now then it was during YOUR TIME.

sorry, but I'm sick of red-meat screaming rhetoric NOT based on any science or statistics.

[bdf]

33. I know it's a VERY serious thread but...

You mentioned coffee. Which reminded me of the old joke which can no longer be used due to the demise of TWA.

TWA Stewardess to passenger: Would you like some of our TWA coffee?

Passenger to TWA Stewardess: No, but I'd love some of your TWA tea.

The old ones are the best. In fact they're enshrined in British Standards.

For years, the microwave amplifier known as a Travelling Wave Tube was abbreviated as "TWT" and the abbreviation was pronounced as "twit." Under the BS 9000 Quality Assurance system (later adopted as ISO 9000), "Traveling Wave Tube" became "Traveling Wave Amplifier Tube." The abbreviation and pronunciation of that abbreviation are left as an exercise to the reader.

[FirstLight]

39. You know, I have never been a fan of big planes...

One of the main reasons I like small aircraft is that the pilot (you or someone you know) has to do a walk around the plane and do the pre-flight check themselves. I just never trusted the "crew" of commercial airlines...

I live in a rural area, and don't have any reason to fly anywhere, and the last time I flew from Reno to LA was January 2001...so I have never experienced the airlines post-9/11...and now, with the fuel and cost issues. I doubt I ever will.

heehee...there's a line from one of my favorite movies, "French Kiss" (Kevin kline & meg ryan)

Luc: "I wonder how you get around your whole life, or do you just stay inside with the curtains pulled."

Kate: " I get around ans God intended....in a car!"

[Imagevision]

41. Inspections? Maintenance?

[Initech]

44. US Airways is the only one charging for all that bullshit.

The other airlines dont... at least not for now.

[JohnyCanuck]

46. The end of travel

The end of travel

High oil prices are crippling airlines and travellers alike and we may only be at the start of a new, global class divide between the stranded and the mobile

Aug 02, 2008 04:30 AM

Nicole Baute


In Europe's late medieval period, the labouring masses rarely travelled further than a few dozen miles from where they were born. For them, travel was dangerous, onerous and slow.

But wealthy aristocrats travelled far and wide in the name of diplomacy, meeting leaders from other countries and extending their power and influence.

For Steven Flusty, an associate professor of geography at York University, this is what society could once again look like if predictions that the lower-middle classes will no longer be able to afford to fly in just a few years come true.

It would be tremendously debilitating and could wind up "breaking down everything below a certain class level, where they are being held in space as if it's some kind of a container," he says.

The North American airline industry is under siege, with exorbitant fuel costs, a slowing economy and competition from Asia and the Middle East leading to employee layoffs and flight reductions.

Within a year or two, insists writer James Howard Kunstler and others, it will all be over. They predict the demise of the commercial airline industry as it currently exists.

And then, like in the medieval age, society will split into two groups: the mobile, and the stranded.

http://www.thestar.com/News/Ideas/article/471491

[Fumesucker]

52. The root source of the word "travel" is "travail".. n/t

[Terry in Austin]

79. LOL! traveler's mantra

I've often used it when flying standby, dealing with car rentals, lost luggage,...

[Terry in Austin]

80. The end of air travel, anyway

Lots of different kinds of travel happened between medieval times and that beloved industrial-age stunt, aviation. Somehow, that stunt became synonymous with "travel," mainly because there was all that cheap fuel to support it.

Trains can cover the miles quite nicely, as do ships, with a rational expenditure of fuel. We've gotta start thinking in those terms again.

[cayuga]

47. Hubby was an L1011 pilot with TWA too.

He loved that plane. What they are doing to airline employees (and customers) is disgusting. We can't really say we are #1 in anything anymore except having so many corrupt politicans in office.

[SharonAnn]

50. Oh, I loved that plane too! There was an L-1011 flight from Dayton to Los Angeles

and I used fly it on business several times a year. I always looked forward to that flight because the plane was so smooth and so comfortable.

[trof]

105. I'm about 45 minute from you.

Foley.
Welcome to DU.
:hi:

[Olney Blue]

48. I'm expecting pay toilets on the planes any day.

[geomon666]

51. They've been cutting back maintenance and inspections for years.

My father has worked in airline maintenance for almost 40 years now and every year it gets worse for him. The stories I've heard will make your skin crawl. I try very hard not to fly as I consider them to be flying death traps now.

[showmemo]

58. I know what you mean

Last week I heard that American was going to charge you for the restroom on board. Nothing to enter but five dollars with a credit card swipe to get out of the restroom.

Seriously Alfred Kahn who was the great deregulator screwed this whole thing up in 1977 when he told Jimmy to deregulate Airlines and Trucking.

We need to reregulate them and hopefully Barack will do that and get us more jobs. The teamsters union and the Airline Pilots association agree.

[deaniac21]

60. TWA, the only airline that i positively always avoided.

[AngryAmish]

63. Airline travel in the western world is the safest way to travel, ever

There has not been a major crash in the US since 2001 (NY after 9/11). The machinery has gotten extremely reliable - pilots go years between engine failures which used to be common. Navigation is light years ahead - people rarely fly into terrain which used to be common.

Flying sux but safety is not one of the reasons.

[Buzz Clik]

64. A nationalized airline? Let's use Amtrak as a template.

:scared:

[DemoTex]

65. As an airline pilot and airline accident investigator, I'm with trof on this one.

I posted last week that I am in favor of nationalizing the airlines in the US. Those "managers" running the airlines now (mostly bean-counters) and their paid lobbiest-mouthpieces at the ATA (Air Transport Assoc.) could care less about safety, and have proven it time and time again. I have posted here many times since 2001 how it takes "body count" to get the FAA to implement NTSB and pilot safety recommendations. However, that safety-be-damned attitude has taken a quantum leap for the worse over the last couple of years.

The opening statement to the Air Line Pilots Association's (ALPA) Code of Ethics says it best: "An Air Line Pilot will keep uppermost in his mind that the safety, comfort, and well-being of the passengers who entrust their lives to him are his first and greatest responsibility." The wording is a bit anachronistic (sexist), but the sentiment is spot-on.

Schedule with Safety.

[TahitiNut]

78. Behind you 100% on that, Mac.

Amen.
:pals:

[AwakeAtLast]

66. I liked flying TWA

My cousin used to call it "Teeny Weeny Airlines" and always went through the schtick of "they serve teeny weeny steaks, with teeny weeny seats," etc. She was so silly :silly:

I haven't flown in an airplane since 2000. Not sure I want to, either.

But get this - my husband just got a great job with the airport! :crazy:

edit: spelling

[Turbineguy]

72. I'm sorry, but...

Most of this I have to disagree with. Extrapolating that charging for coffee means airlines are not doing maintenance is woolly thinking. The nature of aircraft design and the maintenance systems used by air the travel industry is by definition to reduce maintenance costs. You could say the same thing about your car. Changing spark plugs every 100,000 miles, using synthetic oil to extend oil changes is not the same thing as "cutting back on maintenance".

Any maintenance system seeks optimum maintenance with lowest overall cost as its goal. There's nothing wrong with that. Improper or delayed maintenance leads to schedule disruptions or worse.

Machinery is machinery and how we "feel" has no relation to it.

[truedelphi]

83. Turbineguy, are you aware that some pilots are now speaking out because of the pressure on them

To cut back on the amount of fuel that they carry??

I am sorry,but I think for most people that indicates a serious flaw in the bean counter's mentality. They are over-stepping the ways to cut costs.

Plus if you think about it, the fuel doesn't evaporate. If you arrive in Chicago from LA with extra fuel, it's still there in the airplane's tank. (Yeah extra fuel costs a bit more to transport, but it is there for many reasons. If a pilot running a route that normally has tailwinds instead experiences headwinds, it is gonna be needed.)

[Turbineguy]

88. Bean counters do that

In my industry (ocean shipping) we have the same problems. Oddly enough, at one point I figured out that my vessel burned an extra 1000 tons of fuel per year to carry an extra 1000 tons of unneeded fuel in the tanks. Obviously my number would preclude running out mid-ocean. The company's answer was to order more fuel.

We like to base reserves on some sort of statistical experience. Then there is the school of thought that you base on worst case experience. But in reality, it may be economically viable to make a (very rare) mid trip landing.

Just saying. No Pilot is going to do nothing and run out of fuel mid-air.

Bean Counters always put pressure on to fly or sail. I found a polite refusal usually does the trick. Because at the end of the day, the Pilot is responsible and in the plane, not the bean counter. As Chief Engineer I always ran into Captains and Managers who wanted to "go faster". In my capacity it was up to me to educate them as to the consequences of their demands.

[truedelphi]

95. Somehow the thought of an ocean going vessel running out of fuel does not scare me anywhere near

The way that an airplane running out of fuel would.

I know what you are saying, but I don't think the pilots would be speaking up if they were not chaffing under certain constraints that they saw as interfering with safety.

ANd there is a big difference between an ocean-going vessel coming into port and an airplane being forced for whatever reason to circle an airfield. In large American cities, some flights have circled the airport they need for hours. I am assuming a ship can just bob along at half power if it needs to take its time coming into port.

[Turbineguy]

104. Well, the Bean Counters

in the maritime industry have caused accidents. The Bright Field collision in New Orleans and the Exxon Valdez are a couple of fine examples.

I'll trust the Pilots before I trust the bean counters.

[Turbineguy]

89. delete- double post

[ForeignSpectator]

73. Anyone else get the FAATest ad at the end of this thread?

How does that work??

[truedelphi]

82. I realized that flying was not what it should be way back when

They started re-cycling air.

So that anyone flying for more than a few hours could almost expect to come down with a nasty head cold or worse.

How much could it cost them to have air filtration units on planes?? It is a relatively small enclosed space.

[trof]

102. Well, it's not 'recycled'.

Air to pressurize the airplane is bled off the 'cool' section of the engines. It's further cooled by freon packs (or other cooling devices) and piped under pressure into the passenger cabin (and in most cases the cargo holds too).

There are air outflow valves (usually in the lower aft fuselage, about as big as dinner plates) which automatically modulate (open a little, or closed a little)to keep cabin pressure at a certain level.

So there is a certain amount of air exchange.

But your point is well taken.
If you're sitting in close proximity to someone with a cold or the flu, chances are you might get it.

In the days when smoking was still allowed, you'd see big brown streaks on the fuselage aft of the outflow valves.
Tar.

[Xenocrates]

84. Nationalized? Have you ever traveled via Amtrak? (nm)

[Gormy Cuss]

86. Yes. Best way to travel between coastal population centers in the Northeast.

The problems with Amtrak are associated with politicians trying to kill it, not running efficiently.

[crimsonblue]

91. I don't know what you're smoking about Amtrak

but for me, it costs $93 to ride from KC to Chicago on Amtrak, whereas it costs me $165 to travel by plane. (this is based on a search today on departure date of 9/5 and return date of 9/10). Amtrak does take longer (about 4-5 hours longer on the trip itself), but the check in time is much shorter, there is much less of a security hassle, and you can freely walk about in the train, plus I'd take the Chicago train station over O'Hare hands down. These days, I'd take Amtrak any day over the airlines (not to mention that as a student, I could purchase a student discount card for Amtrak for $22 and save 15% per trip).

[Heather MC]

87. I have felt this way for a long time. before the gas price hikes

Remember after 9/11 the travel industry suffered greatly, well I live in the DC area
and I know for a fact the Airlines let go of several long time qualified Mechanics in an effort to cut cost. I worked with their family members. That's when I decided to stop flying, Unless I absolutely couldn't avoid it.

And now for get it I will walk to Cali if I have too!

[Blue_Tires]

93. i remember as a kid flying everywhere on Eastern in the 80s

it was like 1990(?) before i even took a different airline for the first time

[lonestarnot]

96. Me too, but keep the unions and give them back some say!

[XemaSab]

98. I like my coffee

like I like my women! :rofl: