The Stars & Bars

[OmahaBlueDog]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20080804/ts_csm/aflags

What do you think?

[Taverner]

1. Celebrating Treason. How fucking American.

[Zomby Woof]

18. "Treason" is always the flawed premise from which bad history flows

The south saw the north betraying the ideals of self-government (especially via the 10th Amendment) and the Constitution. It was a war for independence. Of course, the Tories in the American Revolution saw the rebelling colonists as the "traitors", all things being relative. One nation's traitor is another nation's defender.

The prevailing view on secession was, if the states could vote to ratify the Constitution and be admitted to the union, then they could damn sure withdraw when that same Constitution was, in their view, betrayed. They wouldn't have voted themselves into the union if they couldn't vote themselves out. The Constitution is a contract, and secession was in effect, suing the union for breach of contract.

As for slavery, the U.S. federal Constitution endorsed it for nearly 78 years, relegating human beings as "3/5ths" of a person. At war's beginning, U.S. Grant's wife owned slaves - like Lincoln's wife, they were from prominent slaveowning families. Slavery was but one (albeit the most dramatic and emotionally immediate) dimension of the conflict. If anything, it was an economic war on all fronts - embracing issues such as the prohibitive tariff and the overwhelming manufacturing advantage of the north over the agrarian economy of the south. Stonewall Jackson even floated the idea that if the Confederacy had freed the slaves at war's beginning, it would have kept Lincoln from making it a war about slavery, when it was in effect, a war for secession, or better yet, independence. But like Jefferson and the other founders of the original republic, the Confederacy was no more prepared to give up human bondage any more than the founders of the very republic from which they sought a break. Both sides had clung to the notion that it would fade away on its own accord. Of course, a string of compromises (Missouri in 1820, or the 1850 Compromise) over the decades slowly revealed that it was naive idealism or wishful thinking at best, as economic tensions and the growing moral urgency of emancipation could no longer be restrained.

In the Union Army, McClellan didn't want to get the notion out there that it was a war for emancipation, or he would have had mass desertion in the ranks. It was Lincoln's strategy, and a testament to his political genius, to let that notion evolve.

Ultimately, the rank-and-file Confederate soldier or sailor was fighting for the defense of his home, as the most local of patriots, not one tied to the abstract questions of ideology, economics, race, or law. As one rebel put it when a Union soldier asked why he was fighting, "Because you're down here."

In due course as the war became an increasingly distant memory, the federal government passed a law in 1913 giving both living and dead Confederate veterans full U.S. veteran status. They were American soldiers, in the end, given full military honors at burial. To call a Confederate veteran a traitor, is in effect, calling a U.S. veteran a traitor. It was after all, an American war.

[Guaranteed]

20. You can be a traitor and be right. You can be a traitor and be wrong.

They were traitors who were wrong.

And they lost.

That flag is shit. Banning it would go against our principles, but anyone who flies it and calls themselves a loyal American doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Lyric]

22. Nobody called Confederate veterans traitors.

The flag represents the Confederate *government*. Big difference between the government and the individuals.

The Southern states had a skewed definition of what it meant to be a "Union." The entire POINT of the Union was E pluribus unum--Of many, one. You can take eggs, milk, flour, and butter and make them into a cake. But you can't take cake and turn it into eggs, milk, flour, and butter. When the states became a Union, they ceased being separate and became something else--something that could not be broken up into separate pieces again. It took a horrible war to firmly establish that fact, but fact it is. If the Southerners had truly wanted to secede, their job was to convince the rest of the nation that the Right to Secede should be explicit in the Constitution, and to pass and ratify an Amendment that said so. They could not, and did not. Their mistake. Too bad.

Everything is so different now than it was back then, it's hard for us to relate to the political climate. Back then, the "corporatist" (federalist) types like Hamilton were in favor of a strong federal government, and the more "liberal" (anti-federalist) types like Jefferson wanted government to be incredibly small and as locally-centralized as possible. That's completely the opposite of what we have today.

Sometimes there are issues that are more important than maintaining the purity of your philosophy of government. Slavery was a human rights issue--a deeply, horribly, insanely WRONG thing. If it meant that the anti-federalist notions of state sovereignty and limiting federal power had to be violated in order to Right that Wrong, so be it. The problem is not that the government tried to "change the rules in the middle of the game" (as one Confederate sympathizer recently tried to justify it to me.) The problem is that it never should have been permitted in the first place. That mistake had to be rectified before our society and our nation could move forward. If it meant violating the principles of the government at the time in order to do it, well...the vast, vast majority of people today would say that it was well worth it.

That being said, our First Amendment guarantees us the right to fly the Confederate flag (or ANY flag) if we so choose. However, it also gives the rest of us the right to say that those people are fucking assholes.

Those people are fucking assholes.

Edit: Apparently the guy above me just DID call the veterans traitors at some point while I was composing my post. What I meant was that the point of the post you responded to wasn't about criticizing the soldiers (who often had no choice but to fight--the Confederacy had a draft, after all.) The problem with the flag is that it represents a government who fought and killed for the sake of being able to continue owning slaves.

[annabanana]

28. Excellent post!. . light, not heat. . thank you. . . . n/t

[Rockholm]

29. That was the battle flag.

Not the flag of the Confederacy.

[Lyric]

35. Well the article didn't have a picture

so when someone says "The Confederate Flag", I automatically think of the Stars and Bars--not the battle flag.

[kwassa]

36. Specifically, the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia

Lee's army.

not the Confederate national flag.

[MadrasT]

39. Actually, it was the Naval flag

The battle flag looked similar but was square in shape.

Naval flag:


Battle flag:


(Civil War geek. Can't help myself.)

[Hugabear]

26. Oh god, not this shit again

The Civil War was all about slavery, pure and simple. All this other stuff - tariffs, states rights, embargoes, etc - was just window dressing. The underlying issue behind all these other issues was slavery, and the South was determined not to allow anything to interfere with that.

These people took up arms against the federal government to protect that "peculiar institution". They were traitors, every last one of them.

[Taverner]

46. Yep - couldn't have said it better myself

[MellowDem]

51. Oh boy...

No war is "pure and simple", much less the Civil War. It was not all about slavery, though slavery played an integral part in it. And the vast majority of the men who fought on the Confederate side did not own slaves and were fighting primarily for what they perceived as their homeland. And a great many more were drafted into a war they never wanted to fight. They were poor, ignorant farmers who were goaded into war by the slave-owning aristocracy. The rank and file Confederate soldier was no ideologue for slavery.

But I guess they were traitors, every last one of them, just like the Iraqis are terrorists, every last one of them. Right? Riiiiiiiiiiight.

[kwassa]

47. The most illogical conclusion I've seen in a long time.

"To call a Confederate veteran a traitor, is in effect, calling a U.S. veteran a traitor. It was after all, an American war."

[El Supremo]

2. Why can't you Damn Yankees get it straight?

Stars and Bars:




Confederate Battle Flag:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. This Yankee knows the difference

and usually points it out. The Battle Flag was usurped by the KKK ca.1866, and has been used as a symbol of racism and intolerance ever since. I usually rile Southerners who insist it is the "Confederate flag"--you see, ignorance of the facts knows no geographic boundaries.

[Thothmes]

9. Dont think so

Looking at photos of large KKK rallies and parades in the 1920s and early 30s, the only flag That I saw was stars and stripes. The KKK started to co-opt the old confederate battle flag during the 1950s.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

15. Kindly remember that in the 20s and 30s

the KKK was popular not only in the South, but also in the North. There were large Klaverns in Illinois and Indiana. This was the time that the KKK was moving north, so of course it made sense NOT to use the Battle Flag at that time. There were still plenty of folks alive who remembered The War at that time.

[Thothmes]

27. True, but when the United Klans marched

In DC in the 1920s, not a Confederate Flag in Site. This was a gathering of all of the Klan organizations is the country.

[Donnachaidh]

8. the yankees WON the war - why should they bother with the trappings of the losers? n/t

[jus_the_facts]

40. Wrong...the whole nation LOST...sigh...perspectives...

:eyes:

[Hippo_Tron]

13. I've seen more confederate battle flag merchandise at a county fair in upstate New York

Than I have anywhere in the south. Makes one wonder...

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. I oppose flying the Battle Flag of Northern Virginia

because it was usurped by the racist KKK after the war. It was NEVER the official flag of the Confederacy, though many think it was. The Confederacy was a failed state, a failed racist state intent upon maintaining the feudal class system.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

4. The swastika.

What's the big whoop?

[Middle finga]

6. The only thing the stars and bars is good for is lightening fires

[2KS2KHonda]

7. Well that's good...there are way too many heavy fires out there.

...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[baldguy]

31. That's the Union Jack of the UK being burned

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

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[truebrit71]

44. Finally....

..self delete...

[mckara]

10. I Don't Think It's Fair to Evaluate Confederate Symptoms...

With Zeitgeist!

Historically, Confederate symbols represented the plight of underdogs battling against a greater power with brilliant leadership and fewer resources. This view differs greatly from those of fringe elements who have wrongly adopted these same banners. Americans should not lose recognition of their historical significance, and should not permit fringe lunatics to claim them as their own. If we label Confederate standards as symptoms of hate, we are giving up these historical artifacts without a fight!

:patriot:

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. The trouble with that analogy

was that those who started the secession were anything but underdogs. They were the elite of the South whose arrogance actually greatly contributed to its downfall. For example, one reason the South had "fewer resources" was because the Confederate government refused to sell their cotton to Europe before Lincoln put up the blockade. They figured that Europe would give in to their terms, and they were wrong. And the Confederate government reeked with sycophants--Davis appointed friends to commands that they were totally unqualified for while ignoring more qualified officers. The poor whites who made up the majority of the troops were often drafted to fight-the first draft came from the South, not the North. Remember that those with 20 slaves were exempt from the draft, even at the end of the War.

[mckara]

23. Yes, My Analogy is Romanticism...

When the legend becomes the fact, print the legend. That romantic view prevailed among people in the defeated South.

Actually, the South never wanted for war materiel. Their army scavenged war supplies from Northern armies, which eliminated any shortfalls. "Arrogance" was less pervasive than poor leadership that had Confederate force fight an offensive, rather than defensive, war. Generals studied Jomini and they should have studied Clausewitz! Lee was not a great strategic thinker. Although, he excelled in tactical warfare.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. The arrogance of the upper classes in the South is alive and well

When my husband was a lad, he wanted to go to military school, and his parents sent him to one of the best. He came across the Southern elites--spoiled rich kids who were sent there in lieu of going to jail for "youthful indiscretions" They were all about connections and power and getting their own way, feeling that because they were of the upper classes they deserved the best even if they didn't merit it. Hmmmm....you know, I don't think that is a regional feeling as much as a feeling of certain upper classes. Seems to me I've read about that attitude popping up in Connecticut as well as Georgia......:)

[mckara]

49. I Agree!

Especially among Southern men, arrogance has traditionally been so prevalent that it has become a curse.

My sister-in-law, a native Georgian, chose to marry my Western Colorado brother to get away from Southern men. She diplomatically stated, "Southern men have an attitude." Yeah, most of them are a**holes. lol Although, I have met some very decent gentlemen from the South also. Good Democrats = Good Guys, usually. lol

[bdf]

11. Other

Yeah, the people who fly that flag are almost always racist fuckers. But, to quote Noam Chomsky:

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for
people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.

And the reason I believe that even these inbred racise fucktards are entitled to freedom of expression is that it means that so am I. Which means I get to call them on it, which shows just how stupid these arseholes are.

Freedom of speech is a two-edged sword. And in a battle of wits, these morons are coming unarmed.

[aikoaiko]

12. Most of the people flying the Battle Flag do so in support of ...

...eating BBQ and fried chicken, hunting hogs, fishing for bass, listening to country music, water skiing in muddy rivers, SEC football, and revering Jesus than in support of Confederate ideology or Jim Crow segregation.

But my wife who is a life long Georgian, UGA grad, and whose family fought in the recent unpleasantness says that I don't know what I'm talking about and the flag is still inherently about racism.

BTW, this is Stars and Bars



and this is the N. Va. Battle Flag that many Confederate units adopted.

[aikoaiko]

34. BTW, did anyone notice the resemblance of Stars and Bars to the GA state flag?

A few years back people expressed their unhappiness witht he GA state flag containing the image of the Confederate Battel Flag.



So it was changed to a blue flag with the seal and small images of past GA flags along the bottom. No one liked it so it was changed again to:



which has a striking resemblance to the first Confederate flag known as Stars and Bars



So what was won?

[Hippo_Tron]

14. My friend has a litmus test for seperating bigots and genuine confederate history enthusiasts

You simply ask them if they know who Judah Benjamin was and whether or not they know that he was Jewish.

[rucky]

17. It belongs in a museum.

Not on a flagpole, and certainly not on the back of a truck.

[Toucano]

21. I do not support it, but it does not offend me.

Sometimes, it might scare me a little.

But I almost always tolerate it. The only exception is if it is flown on government property. That doesn't seem right to me.

[MrSlayer]

24. I'm indifferent to it.

You want to fly it? Fly it. You want to burn it? Burn it.

[sutz12]

25. I voted for "offends".....but...

But I have a caveat. I don't really care if an individual flies it or wears it or whatever.

I strongly oppose any governmental agency at any level flying or displaying it.

[Brewman_Jax]

30. Links to the Declarations of Secession

and other CSA documents. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/csa/csapage.htm

Reading the Declarations for GA, MS, SC, and TX shows they had no question of why they seceeded.

[LWolf]

33. Other:

I find much that the flag symbolizes to be offensive.

I support the display of the flag on private property, whether I find it offensive or not.

[Xenocrates]

38. Freedom of Expression (nt)

[SidneyCarton]

41. The flag is a symbol, like all symbols it is used for good and ill.

How many times have we seen the stars and stripes wrapped around the worst of crimes in an attempt to make a pile of excrement holy?

The same is true for the Confederate Battle Flag, it means different things to different people.

To those who marched for civil rights, it is a symbol of intolerance and bigotry, as it was carried by those who attacked and beat them.

To those who take pride in their southern background, it is a symbol of their heritage, of the Southern rebellious streak that has never really gone away

To those who had ancestors fight under those colors (like myself), it is an ambivalent symbol. I abhor the Confederacy and what it stood for, but my ancestors thought it was worth fighting for. For them, that flag symbolized their home, as much as the Stars and stripes mean home for me. And yet the Stars and Stripes are not without ambivalence for me. It means home for me, but for millions of people around the globe, that flag is as much a symbol of fear and danger for them as it is one of hope for me.

I remember some time ago seeing a picture of the Confederate Battle flag being carried next to a Nazi banner during a Klan rally. I felt a little sick, particularly when I thought of the men who fought under the southern colors. Those men were not saints by any sense of the word, and I strongly believe that their cause was not just, but they weren't Nazis, and I think every time that equivalence is made there are many "Johnny Rebs" who turn in their grave.

[Clark2008]

42. Ummm.... the Stars and Bars isn't the Battle Flag of Virginia.

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Flying Dream Blues]

45. I can be offended and still defend the right to display it.

[yurbud]

48. I am offended by the word "offended." It makes objecting to it sound subjective rather than...

the objective statement that it represents treason and race-based slavery.

[cliffordu]

50. I piss on the stars and bars.