When it comes to pornography and prostitution, why do women patronize other women?

[Smith_3]

I thought the women's movement is mainly about women being able to make their own decisions for themselves. Yet, some self proclaimed feminists are quick to tell another woman that her own willful decision to work as a porn actress or a prostitute is really a sign of her immaturity and inability to realize that she is being exploited.

Some women may be exploited, but others just like the sex and the money. Why the generalizations? Is it so hard to accept that a woman can enjoy uncommitted sex with strangers? IMO it is just another way of saying that a woman who is promiscuous is something to be looked down upon.

Why is it not treated the same as the abortion issue? A woman makes a decision about her own body and it's nobody else's business.

[Wizard777]

1. I've been wondering the samething. Why is it that women don't want the government controling their

bodies until it comes to prostitution? Then they pretty much insist upon it. :shrug:

[ForrestGump]

2. Wouldn't that be

matronizing, actually?



:hide:

[Atman]

13. Off-topic --

I like the pic in your sig line. I have a Wilson-face volleyball, complete with "hair," riding atop my car's antenna.

As for the porn issue...don't get me started. Really...don't. I have to get to work.

.

[sasquatch]

3. I think its a remnent of the prohibition populist movement

People have this bullshit abolutist eupheric hypothesis that if we remove all of our "vices" while simultaniously removing all of the other manifest barriers to equality we can finally have paradise.
:eyes:
Paradise, if it exists, does not exist on this planet nor can it be man made.

[tkmorris]

4. I've known a lot of strippers, prostitutes, and others

Who fill assorted niches in the industry. I have never known a woman who did it truly because she "liked the sex". I'm not saying I disagree with your point overall, but that seemed an odd comment to make. It's the kind of comment one who is not familiar with the industry would make.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Oh I wouldn't be surprised if he's familiar with it.

Just not from the provider side.

[MetaTrope]

30. But presumably, they like the money?

I've been prostituting myself out as a typist for decades now...

[girl gone mad]

58. The money just isn't that good.

Producers are making a lot of money, but the performers have to do an enormous amount of work to make a passable wage.

[MetaTrope]

97. Hmmm, just imagine the money they would be making if prostitution were legal

As with drugs, the bottom would fall out of the market.

I wonder how many of those pushing to keep it a crime are actually the prostitutes themselves.

[XemaSab]

99. You're talking about porn... My friend used to make $100 a pop as a prostitute

and I can't say that's not GREAT money. :shrug:

[girl gone mad]

135. When you look at the cost of AIDS and herpes medicines..

bail, lawyers, long term therapy, doctors, hospital bills, protection payment, etc, it's not great money at all. Certainly not good enough to justify the risks and the long term health issues.

[SmileyRose]

161. 100 bucks a "pop".

LOL :)

[MsTryska]

69. I've been in the industry.....

not as a prostitute, but other various peripherals. And i enjoyed the "sexuality" sometimes.


it was an education. And one i'm glad to have had. but primarily my forays have been for the thrill.

[XemaSab]

98. I don't think women do it because they "like the sex"

but for a women with few skills, would you rather make $8 an hour for a LONG day on your feet, or $100 an hour for a short day on your back? :shrug:

[Hugabear]

109. I'm sure there are a few who genuinely enjoy the sex

I don't know about prostitutes, but I'm sure that there are a few adult actresses who really enjoy it. I seem to remember watching a Jenna Jameson interview where she said something to that effect.

[Dark]

139. For a lot of them, aside from the exploited ones, it's just a job. Even if they hate it,

they're not the only americans who detest their jobs.

[TreasonousBastard]

5. Yeah, well, it seems like every movement runs into a wall...

at some point where ideals conflict. Add to that every movement having its asshole contingents.

I seem to remember a train of feminist thought years ago celebrating female sexuality and genuinely struggling with the question of sex work. Haven't heard much from them for a while but hear a lot from the "ALL sex is rape" crowd. Not surprising what they think of sex work.

I can't help thinking that Susan Sontag was hated by the right wing and they kept trying to trip her up, while they sucked up to and supported Katherine MacKinnon. Seems to me that academic feminism fell into the trap while real women are out there forced to ignore it.

But, hey, what do I know...

[eShirl]

6. I don't, but thanks for the generalization.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

7. The female gender as a whole is dragged down by the choices of these women

Women who allow themselves to be exploited as sex objects by the sex industry and MSM, feed the cultural perception that all women can/should be reduced to that level, or otherwise devalued. The entire female gender is negatively affected by this perception, and in the long run everyone is.

[RC]

8. Ahhh, the conventional wisdom...

that decrees the women do not like sex and those the engage in it in some form are being exploited.

You should get out more.

Define porn. The scantly clad female form on the bill board advertising a radio station? A picture of a female with the naughty parts showing?

[eowyn_of_rohan]

9. funny you tell ME to get out more

lol. I am not a prude and have nothing against sex.

Here's another thread that might interest you. Do you agree with the judge?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3726671

[RC]

12. Nope. The judge is wrong here.

[Boojatta]

49. Is Obama feeding the perception that all...

African-Americans should be serving the American people?

"Young man, veto that bill, debug that computer program, fight that war, shine that shoe", etc, etc.

[MsTryska]

73. I disagree.

The most powerful person in the room is the girl on the stripper pole.

[aspergris]

132. great but

TRUE equality means you don't limit individual choice and freedom based on whether their actions "Degrades" their group.

Many people WILL choose, as should be their right, to degrade themselves. So what? That's their choice. I believe in abortion rights because I believe a woman's choice to abort overrides any "right" a fetus has to live. Iow, her rights over her body extend far beyond the right of a clump of cells to be developed inside her body until viability.

The same logic tells me if a woman wants to sell her image (naked, engaged in sex acts etc. - pornography), or sexual acts (prostitution) for money, it's HER damn choice. DItto for a man.

EQUAL treatment under law.

And yes, equal treatment and freedom necessarily means that not everybody will do what YOU think is best for "the team".

That's a necessary result of REAL freedom. Real freedom isn't pretty, it isn't perfect, and it is not about govt. overlords or gender commissars telling me what I can do with MY body.

[fasttense]

10. Those damn feminists, they don't like men and they want all women to be lesbians.

Your complaint sounds like another version of the same screed.

First not all feminist object to sex workers don't generalize us.

Second the sex trade as it stands now is very exploitive of and very dangerous for women. When they can take most of the drug and violence out of the trade, then I'll consider that women are doing it for sex and money and Not because they have nothing else to sell.

[Clark2008]

40. What you said.

Agreed.

[Stuart G]

11. For the same reason that men patronize other men.. nt

[MrScorpio]

14. You make an excellent point

I've felt the same way myself

[DailyGrind51]

15. Why do young women voluntarily submit their photos to "Playboy"

in the hopes of becoming the next "Playmate of the Month", if it was "exploitation"? If published, they receive cash and a chance at fame, that would, otherwise, be unavailable. Would Jenny McCarthy be a national spokesperson and advocate for autistic children, if we had not first been introduced to her via a gate-fold air-brushed photo in "Playboy"?

[RobertDevereaux]

16. For one of many examples of sex-positive feminism...

...please see Susie Bright's blog here:

http://susiebright.blogs.com/

[noel711]

17. I've worked in social services and counseling for almost 30 years...

Never ever met a woman who turned tricks, was a 'dancer' (the term they use
for what we call 'stripping,') or any kind of sex worker
who felt good about what she did to earn a living.

Most of them made those choices because they felt they had no
other recourse to survive. Over and over again they desperately
wanted to find more fulfilling work, work they could be proud of
and build and new life.

Not long ago a colleague shared (anonymously) about a case of a
high priced, educated call girl (who had clients in corporate and
political settingsand who had made huge sums), who wanted counseling
to help her transition to another life. Although successful in the eyes
of the world, she could not live the 'life' anymore. She did not want to
live the secrecy, and she loathed the fact that she lived by her body.
She thought she enjoyed the 'life' but it was less than fulfilling.

Who is making choices here? How can living by your sexuality be enjoyable
if you 'like sex?' Just think about that statement. For years I loved
cooking. For one summer I worked part-time for a caterer... in weeks I hated
cooking. Took me years to get back to enjoying what had been a hobby.

[Atman]

18. Wouldn't it stand to reason that women wouldn't go to counseling if they felt good?

Seriously, no snark. Your post is good as far as it goes, but you only speak for women who seek out counseling. People seek out counseling for drinking problems, credit problems, etc. Point being, it is entirely expected that the people you'd see in counseling are there because they don't "feel good about what they're doing." That is the nature of counseling. It really doesn't change anything re: the original question posted.

.

[Smith_3]

19. Could it be, that the reason why they felt bad about it is because society tells them to?

So that what they really feel bad about is not the act itsself, but the fact that they have to live with doing something that is shameful in the eyes of the rest of society.

Maybe I'm wrong but I would guess that it is often hard to distinguish the two. Many people feel bad about being gay, although they shouldn't. Of course it is different, because there is really no choice at all about being gay, but the stigmatization in many areas is the same.

A question, do you think that the fact that prostitution is illegal is helping the women that you speak of any?

[noel711]

20. I'm just telling you my experience...

Most of the women I've known who're 'in the life' aren't oppressed
by the illegalities. In fact, none I know have ever been arrested
or prosecuted.

My point is: in my line of work, I've known ladies of various sex trades.
I've never met one who said: "I love what I do! I'm proud of what I do."
The perspective is: "I do what I do because I feel I have no choice. I want
out as soon as possible."

AND my line is work is NOT trying to 'solve' their lifestyle issues.
I'm not that kind of a counselor, although I could be.

I'm a pastor, work in the inner city. I don't go around trying to
'save souls.' I try to accept people for who they are, whether
corner grocers, musicians, druggies, short order cooks, homeless vets,
or ladies of the night. If they need conversation, a cup of coffee,
a prayer, a referal for a specific need, or a coupon for the local diner,
I try to help out.I try not to judge.. they do a pretty good job of that themselves.

Although this runs counter to the prevailing views, even in working class
and 'under class' neighborhoods, there is a strong, almost puritanical
ethic. Those who live and survive in situations most of us would find
unthinkable, have a strong desire to live 'right-' that's what they
call it 'live right.' Most people want to work and live in a way that they
can be proud of, that their children can be proud of.

Would legalizing prostitution make it socially acceptable?
I doubt it. The underlying puritanical morality that's been the foundation
of our culture for the past 300 year won't change overnight.

If you examine how 'well' legalized prostitution works, check out
the life in counties in Nevada where it is legal; it's not a
'happening' kind of job that girls line up to join. It's simply a
way to make some cash.. and then move on.
Check out those who live the 'life' in the Netherlands where it's legal
also. Not such a good life.

[hunter]

21. It would be sorta rude to tell a pastor how much you enjoy your job.

I mean, what if your name was Matthew and you liked ...um... collecting taxes, and you were good at it???

People have a strong desire to tell pastors what they want to hear: that they want to "live right." But some people do, some people don't.

There's an entire spectrum of people working in the sex industries. There are people forced into it by poverty, people who are exploited for subtle and not so subtle psychological reasons (as children maybe they were abused or neglected, or they are paying for their addictions), but there are also people working in fairly safe and protected circumstances for the money, for the sense of power it gives them over other people, for the hell of it, because they think it's a more lucrative job than working at Wal-Mart, or maybe even as a protest against American Puritanism and celebration of human sexuality. Are those people "evil?" Is the work they do evil?

Granted, the majority of sex trade in the United States is rotten to the core, but I tend to think that's a consequence of our Puritanism -- too many people are conditioned from an early age to be excited by the "illicit" aspects of sex in our society. If our society was more open about human sexuality there wouldn't be so many people skulking about paying for sex in such damaging and dangerous ways.

In a perfect world sex is something that binds individuals, families, and communities together. There's even room for quite a bit of silliness -- sex toys, erotic art, etc. It's not the abandonment of Puritan sexual morality that destroys people, it's the usual evils of money, racism, sexism, homophobia, and political oppression. The harmful sex trades as they now exist tend to be a symptom of our social diseases, not the root cause of them.

[noel711]

51. A response...

Hunter, your comment: "It would be rude to tell a pastor how you enjoy your job...people have a strong desire to tell pastors what they want to hear.."

Sure there are times we get the 'party line,' But most of us have very astute bullshit detectors.
It takes time and energy to 'play the ref,' so to speak. When women come to me to talk about their lives, and their troubles, their anguish and emotional weakness is not phony. Many underclass women have very few people in their lives that they can 'be real' with. Many of them have histories of domestic abuse, substance problems, and have been lied to and used by the system for years.
They need someone to be open with. I'm not talking about the 'happy clappy' coffee hour most churches have. I'm talking anguished telephone calls, and conversations. For many of these women,
the sex trade is a last result, and not what they would choose if there were other opportunities.
And the women I know who 'turn tricks' don't necessarily consider themselves 'good at it.'
They hate the life.

"If your name was Matthew and you like collecting taxes..." Hmmmm...
In the very structured religious culture of that time, anyone who collected taxes was working
for 'the Man,' i.e., the Roman Empire, the hated oppressor of the Jews.
Did Matthew possibily enjoy that?
Did he enjoy the derision of his community for feeding the beast?
Often, the tax collectors overassessed the people to assure they had their 'cut.'
Did he enjoy being ritually contaminated by the handling of money, especially Roman lucre?
He was denied access to the temple, denied access to making sacrifices so he was ritually
unclean, and quite possibly anathema to his priest, his family, his neighbors, everyone who gave
some sense of meaning to life at that time.
Is this comparable to women in the sex trade?
I can't say because at that time even tax collectors had more status than women.
Did Matthew enjoy it?
Well, he took the first opportunity to leave that behind when Jesus said: follow me.
If he really enjoyed it, he would not have responded as he did.
Obviously, the life of poverty and struggle of following Jesus gave him some sense of
hope and promise, a bit differently from any financial security of taking taxes.
Did Matthew have any choice?
Sometimes, saying "no" to Rome meant you ended up hanging on a cross..
which Matthew probably did anyway, but for a different reason.

[hunter]

93. It's not yours to "play the ref."

:(

[Smith_3]

35. I guess the reason why I have trouble to understand it is because I the females around me

are all extremely in control of their lives, and if one of them said that they want to do porn I would be the last to argue with them. Hell, I had girlfriends that had their own porn stash.

But I can see it is different when someone is not in control of their life. You can make a weak person do alot of things that he or she might really rather not do.

[noel711]

54. Bingo!

You said it:
'But I can see it is different when someone is not in control of their life. You can make a weak person do alot of things that he or she might really rather not do.'

Our present society has too many weak links, and few safety nets for people with few choices,
and many weaknesses.

I know lots of young women who say and do what your girlfriends have said(my own daughter for one); its easy to be that 'open-minded' when you have a secure home, money in the bank, a good job, food on the table, and friends and family you trust. But not everyone has those advantages.

LIfe is not simple; and many of those things that we take for granted we can lose in the blink of an eye.

It's very easy to think that women should be in control of their lives, and if they wanna make money the old fashioned way, "why not?" Because we still do not have full equality of the sexes. And this present election could reverse years of feminist work for reproductive freedom. Ever read the book
"the Handmaid's Tale" by Margaret Atwood? A cautionary tale..

[Sparkly]

68. Ridiculous.

Welcome to capitalism. Why do women need you, or anyone else, to protect them from their own decisions?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

25. Yeah, that's the problem.

It's not that men are using these women as semen repositories, it's that society won't let them feel good about it.

[Hekate]

103. I had a friend who said the same about incest survivors: "It's society's stigmatization...

... that makes them feel bad about their experience."

Speaking from my personal experience -- I'd say not. Actually it was the betrayal of a child (me) by a trusted person that had the impact on my psyche.

And in the case of sex-workers, if they say they feel bad about "living by their bodies" and so forth, I'd say we should believe their testimony.

When it comes to adults, however, I believe in unionization, decriminalizing prostitution so the women can obtain legal protection from abuse, and help when they want to leave the life.

Hekate

[B Calm]

27. I never had a problem doing laundry. After four years of doing laundry

everyday in the Navy, I make my wife do it! You have a good point!

[JerseygirlCT]

67. I think there's a lot of truth in this. nt

[XemaSab]

100. How much of that do you think is the sex-negative, sexist society?

Yeah, there's a HUGE stigma against sex workers, and that's probably a good part of why they wanted to get out of the business.

But it seems like that stigma is as much about society's reaction as anything else. You mention the shame and secrecy as part of why these two women wanted to get out of the field. But isn't that about being judged by outsiders?

And as far as being valued for your work goes, I think there are a lot of people who don't find a lot of meaning in what they do, but sex work pays better than Wal Mart. If you're going to sell your soul, you may as well charge a good price, no?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. Tiresome strawargument

I object to porn and prostitution and I have never told another woman she was immature or unable to realize she was being exploited. If anything, YOU are the one making assumptions about sex workers right now.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. Damn Right. But Trying To Reason With Zealots Probably Won't Get Ya Very Far.

[Book Lover]

26. OK, I have very little time today so I'm just going to send you to Twisty

http://blog.iblamethepatriarchy.com

Look round and be polite. You may get an idea of what feminism is.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. I was thinking of Twisty too!

This thread is a veritable treasure trove of the things she so deliciously scorns. Dudely entitlement, check. "Sex positive" faux feminism, check. Pedantic assholes, check.

[Book Lover]

29. Indeed

I think a link to Twisty is going to be my standard reply to threads like these.

[hunter]

33. A good antidote to BartCop misogyny...

:D

[Bonobo]

31. Female sexuality=good. Male sexuality=bad.

Female instincts = good.

Male instincts = bad.

Get with the program. It's really very simple.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Boo hoo.

Talk to me when there's a multi-billion dollar global legal and illegal industry devoted to serving up males for the sexual gratification of women.

[ZombieHorde]

74. There is an extremely popular (with female nerds) branch of man on man porn for woman.

http://www.yaoicollection.com/

The women in my collage Japanese class enjoyed it very much.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

86. Fail.

:thumbsdown:

[ZombieHorde]

88. Success.

:thumbsup:

[mrreowwr_kittty]

89. Last time I checked an obscure genre of Japanese cartoon porn was not generating billions of dollars

From female customers. Nor am I aware of massive amounts of trafficking of human beings to sustain it.

Fail.

[ZombieHorde]

91. When was the last time you checked their profits? They may have increased bussiness since you last

researched the subject. I would not call yaoi obscure.

Nor am I aware of massive amounts of trafficking of human beings to sustain it.

Human trafficking and voluntary porn movies are two very different things.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

94. How do you know which porn movies you watch feature voluntary performers?

Answer: You don't.

[ZombieHorde]

95. You can say that about almost anything.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

96. I predicted you'd say that.

Really, some originality in your justifications would be appreciated. :eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

101. Not going to happen

These threads are always and sadly predictable. None of the pro-porn advocates ever seem to actually give a shit about sex workers. There used to be a one or two who actually did as I recall. Much more interesting discussions.

Funny how Sweden always gets an honorable mention. Funny, Amsterdam hasn't been brought up yet.

[ZombieHorde]

102. Because it is true, argue against it, if you can.

[ismnotwasm]

104. Why?

Toss in a broad generality into a topic specific argument, no point. As in waste of time.

You sound as though you think that porn is generally a risk free occupation. Interestingly naive point of view, and not uncommon.

[ZombieHorde]

123. Where did I say that?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

106. I've offered this challenge to other porn enthusiasts on DU:

Film yourself being penetrated by a large group of men, in every orifice, while they bombard you with degrading insults. Then they all ejaculate on your face, while you appear to lap it up eagerly. This is one of the most popular forms of hardcore porn, the "gangbang". You earn a few hundred dollars at the end of the session. Let us know how much you enjoyed it.

[Hugabear]

110. So you take one particular example and project that onto the entire sex industry?

BTW, I've known women who enjoy doing exactly what you described for FREE (minus the degrading insults).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

dupe

[mrreowwr_kittty]

111. So, in other words, you're not going to take the challenge.

Unless and until you do, you have no credible opinion on it, your insistence that you've "known women who enjoy doing exactly what you described for FREE (minus the degrading insults)" notwithstanding. BTW, the insults are part of the whole point of the genre.

Fail. :thumbsdown:

[Hugabear]

112. Your challenge is a bullshit challenge

You're taking one particular example and using that to generalize the ENTIRE industry as being "degrading". There are quite a few adult film scenarios that I have participated in, why does your one particular example hold more importance?

Have you ever been to a swinger party? There are plenty of consenting adults engaging in the exact behavior that you find so offensive and degrading, and they LOVE it.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hugabear]

114. You seem to have a bizarre fixation on gang-bang porn

For the record, that particular genre of porn isn't really my cup of tea. I'd also like to know where you're getting your stats that violent gangbang porn is one of the most popular genres. I don't mean simple gang-bang porn, but the kind you specifically described in your post.

However, I also believe in FREEDOM. If someone chooses to do that, that's their business - not mine and most certainly not YOURS.

[Name removed]

117. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hugabear]

118. Resorting to personal attacks? Classy

Throughout this thread, I have not once resorted to calling you names. I've said your argument is bullshit, and I stand by that. I've offered you examples of where people engage in this type of behavior for fun, and you utterly dismiss that because it doesn't fit in with your preconceived notions.

For the record, there IS such a thing as group sex in which one woman is the center of attention, and the men involved are not calling her nasty names, punching her, etc. Once again, have you EVER been to a swinger party? Don't think so...

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ZombieHorde]

147. the insults are part of the whole point of the genre.

If that were true, then there would be no need for the sex acts.

[ZombieHorde]

124. I never claimed to be a porn enthusiast.

All I said was that there was a type of porn that was made for woman (and usually by woman) that was based around guy on guy action.

edit to add: I also see now that I also said that voluntary porn was very different than Human trafficking.

[Lilith Velkor]

136. I told this poster I'd take her up on it for cash up front

She put me on ignore because she's full of shit.

[ZombieHorde]

146. full of shit

I think that it is worse than that, I think that there is something mentally wrong. I mention that a popular guy on guy porn cartoon genre exists for woman, and then, WOW.

[Lilith Velkor]

152. I happen to be one of those women

Hence the solicitation. There isn't necessarily something mentally wrong with someone who blusters when they are losing an argument or weasels out of coughing up the dough when their bluff is called - they're just full of shit.

[ZombieHorde]

153. Oops, I tried to send a post without a subject line.

There isn't necessarily something mentally wrong with someone who blusters when they are losing an argument or weasels out of coughing up the dough when their bluff is called - they're just full of shit.

That could be, though....I wonder.

I happen to be one of those women and Hence the solicitation.

I am not sure what this is about. I don't know what you mean.

[Lilith Velkor]

155. I'm a yaoi fangirl

I like my porn, and defend the right of others to enjoy their porn as well, because I'm not a bloody hypocrite.

Naturally, this person took my position as an invitation for her to solicit me for a performance in a gang-bang film. Then she put me on ignore so she could continue to be smug about "nobody taking her up on it."

If someone could be so kind as to PM her and let her know that she has an offer to begin her career as a porn producer, that would be spiffy.

[Hannah Bell]

158. women enjoy watching guy on guy action?

yeah, to the extent they buy "playgirl"

[Withywindle]

128. I'm a big fan of it myself.

But there are a couple huge differences between yaoi (and its Western-fandom equivalent, slash fanfiction and art) and commerical porn of the type people usually think of when they think of porn.

The first and most obvious: it's DRAWINGS. Or text. Or both. Not live-action. Not photographs. No actual people are performing sex acts for a camera here. Therefore, no real people are being violated or exploited.

The second, and I'm coming at it from a participant's POV: fan porn is people (mostly women and a few mostly gay/bi men) writing and drawing this stuff for each other. even commercial manga artists and writers have a relationship of some sort with their fanbase, and doujinshi is fan produced. Only the original creators make money, generally; no one is doing this to get rich. No one is doing this because they have to to pay the bills either.

[Lilith Velkor]

137. I'm not so sure about your last sentence

Living in Japan is very expensive.

[Withywindle]

143. Haha, point taken there.

Fan works like doujinshi have a different status in Japan copyrightwise, from what I understand (which is very little).

My overall point was that at least on the fan side of things, money isn't the same priority it is on the commercial Western porn side of things. I also think that from an exploitation POV, it's a very different thing to write and draw your own "scripts" than to be an actor in someone else's.

[Lilith Velkor]

156. I know, I was just making a joke.

In all seriousness, I think capitalism is the problem. I'd rather all porn be amateur.

[ZombieHorde]

154. it's DRAWINGS

Don't shatter my world, it's all REAL!

[DS1]

138. Yay for collage!

[ZombieHorde]

151. I agree, yay for collage.

[Hugabear]

116. What would you do about pornography?

Since you have such strong feelings against it, what would you do about it if given the power?

Would you outlaw it? Would you use the police power of the state to burst down my door, search my house, and confiscate anything that you deem offensive or pornographic?

[joshcryer]

36. I'd rather think of it as: female sexuality = bad. female sexiness = good.

There's a distinction. One is personal the other is objective.

I think feminists confuse female sexuality with female sexiness, and by demeaning the latter they often times leave no room for the former.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. Only if you think

Being "sexy", i.e., complying with a certain appearance and behavioral mandate equals "sexuality". IOW, I can have a great sexual life, without being the least bit "sexy" to you.

[Evoman]

34. It would be interesting to see a study that compares the number of porn actresses

and the health of the economy. I'd like to see if we can get hard data on the effects of recession on number and availability of porn actresses (and call girls...though I could probably guess the answers).

I mean...if someone wants to be a porn actress, that's fine I guess. But only if it's a real choice...not a choice by duress, or a choice by the fact that there are no other viable choices.

What causes a woman to choose to go to college? If you had the means and money to become a doctor, or lawyer, or even an accountant, would you become a porn actress?

I don't want women to be banned from sex work. I don't want women to be treated like mindless, little girls who can't do what they want with their bodies. But I want women (nay, EVERYBODY) to have real means to make other choices if they wish. And I don't want the women who already work in porn or as a prostitute, and who want to make a different choice, to have to undergo some stupid, social stigma for their previous choices.

[joshcryer]

39. Sweden is where you need to look for a "western civilization" example.

I think in other countries and such it's starkly different and your answers will be a bit nasty. In Sweden you arguably have a choice. In Brazil, your choice is either be raped or pay someone protection money to be their whore and hope to god they don't traffic you.

I personally am against sex work (and even for-pay pornography; in my mind it's best suited as amateur stuff). However I see it as something that cannot be escaped in our currently monetarily oriented world economy.

[Firespirit]

37. I am a very, very sex-negative feminist, so you probably wouldn't agree with a word I said

IMO the whole game of mate-seeking and sex is degrading and disgusting, no matter what it culminates with. It pushes the idea that one is somehow not a complete person without a partner, even a very short-term one. It's the same shit as was pushed on women in Victorian times, that to be an "old maid" was to be worthless, wasted potential.

Also, sex drive is primarily a function of testosterone. I don't really need to add anything to that.

[joshcryer]

41. Sex drive is primarily a function of testosterone?

So women have no sex drives or very little sex drives?

I would posit that the female sex drive is starkly different than the male sex drive and that in fact our culture has subverted the female sex drive for a long long time (women being objects rather than people).

[Firespirit]

44. Yes, testosterone is the primary factor in libido

And as you are not a woman, I'm honestly not that interested in what you think about "female sex drive." Unless you are gay and have no self-interest in there being a "perfect" world of scads of lustful women just begging to give it up.

[joshcryer]

47. I'm just observant of the opressive nature of the world toward female sexuality.

Women being shamed because they have periods or 'smells.' In some cases being completely castrated from any sexual stimulation whatsoever via the form of FGM (so that the male can get off oh so much better, and so the female isn't a "whore").

Males hit puberty, they get erections like crazy and fool around. Girls hit puberty they bleed, have cramps, and are shamed. Society tells them to "look pretty," (sexy) but that's about it. They have no other sexual indicators.

There are certain tribes that will cast out women because of their periods for a time, because they're "unclean." They have to literally go out in the woods for a few days until they're "clean" again. This sort of mindset has continued throughout the generations with women being seen more as property than actual individuals.

[Firespirit]

52. Which is why I support an ascension from that kind of baseness

It would be better if no one had the rutting instinct. We have the medical technology to keep the human species in existence, and no one would have to feel hormonal cravings for anyone else in order to be a parent. No one would accidentally become a parent, either. Before too many more decades are gone, we should have custom genetic engineering as well. It is thought to be the natural destiny of an advanced species, in fact -- abolition of uncontrollable physical urges by means of technology.

Sci-fi pipe dream? Perhaps. I am a sci-fi fan. But one can always hope.

[joshcryer]

55. So become like Vulcans? I don't like that idea at all.

I love human dramas. I love what our little imperfections do to us. What I don't love is the control inherent in our global society, and how women have had the short end of it for a long long time (arguably back into prehistory though there are examples that might say otherwise; such as the egalitarian Aka tribe).

Like I said I'm against sex work and even pornography, I don't think that monetarily oriented societies allow people to actually, well, have many choices in the matter of what they do with themselves.

So perhaps that sci-fi future you speak of could be realized, then we'd just have professional sluts (men *and* women) and amateur pornographers and I doubt *any* feminist would argue against that!

[Firespirit]

92. That's not exactly what I had in mind, but it's an intermediate step

Sci-fi writers have created "ascended" or "transcendental" societies where the people have used technology to eliminate the physical needs that cause violence. There is the idea of replicating memories into custom-designed androids, creating pseudo-immortal bodies that are not subject to the uncontrollable kinds of hormonal problems that humans suffer through... a mind-oriented society, essentially. That is an ideal that I have. However, the mind has plenty of potential pathology in itself, if the idea of perfection bothers you.

A Vulcan society is good too, however. Interesting that you should bring them up, as I have been told jokingly by more than one person that I must have been a Vulcan changeling.

[Hannah Bell]

159. that's even grosser.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

162. Worst. Utopia. EVAH. -nt

[EstimatedProphet]

165. Why not just eliminate joy while you're at it?

[ZombieHorde]

148. being a "perfect" world of scads of lustful women just begging to give it up.

This world does exist, it is called Earth.

[AngryAmish]

129. Testosterone is a primary driver of the want to mate

Womem produce testosterone (in adrenal glands primary and some in ovaries - I think, I could be wrong).

More testosterone in women usually means more sex drive. Women taking anabolic steroids report increased libido. Same with women who take testosterone (which of course is an anabolic steroid). In fact testosterone is sometime prescribed to women with decreased libido.

My 2 cents on this narrow point. The rest of everyone's arguments in this thread are stupid and I take no sides.

[MsTryska]

81. I'm a woman. and i have a sex-drive.

And I'll even go one further and tell you I start climbing the walls about a week after i ovulate, right up until my period. Soemtimes I'm horny during my period.

And this is not partner dependent. I also like porn. sometimes.


I'm sorry you think sex is icky - but please odn't speak for me. I heart the sex. especially when it's good sex.

[Hugabear]

115. My wife has a very strong sex drive

Hell, sometimes I think she even has a stronger sex drive than I do. She also enjoys watching porn with me sometimes.

But hell, I'm just a man, so I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I really don't know the woman whom I've spent the last six years with, do I? :sarcasm:

[Clark2008]

38. Very few like the sex

I'm not saying they don't like sex, but with some of the men... :puke:

Most are driven into the profession by others to begin with.

[joshcryer]

42. That's highly debatable and context dependent.

Now before I go on I should say I *am* against sex workers. But for entirely different reasons.

In western developed countries where sex workers have equal access to resources and are relatively on the same level as the men the only people who would do sex work... are those who would enjoy it.

[Sparkly]

43. Which feminists said what?

"Yet, some self proclaimed feminists are quick to tell another woman that her own willful decision to work as a porn actress or a prostitute is really a sign of her immaturity and inability to realize that she is being exploited."

"some self proclaimed feminists" -- who are you referring to?
"are quick to tell another woman" -- what woman?
"that her own willful decision to work as a porn actress or a prostitute is really a sign of her immaturity and inability to realize that she is being exploited." -- who said that?

[Firespirit]

45. This is not the first time that poster has made this kind of post

Certain individuals really seem to have a lot of comments to make about what they imagine women are thinking. These individuals have a major problem with feminism but try to hide it in weasel-speak.

It pisses me off bad, and I'm giving him exactly what he apparently wants to hear. I am a proponent of the "feed them till they explode" plan. }(

[Smith_3]

122. Discussions will go on as long as they have to.

The mere fact that my posts often generate over a hundred replies within a short time period shows that there is something that needs to be talked about. As you can see here, not all responses are negative.

[ZombieHorde]

149. I am a proponent of the "feed them till they explode" plan.

This statement sounds like you are saying that you are lying or exaggerating. Though I don't know if that is what you meant.

[joshcryer]

48. These are not hard to find, just do a google search.

Here's one site: http://www.genderberg.com/

Try keywords like "anti-pornography feminism" or "anti-sex worker feminism."

Try also "sex-negative feminism"

This is a common theme, really. And there are two sides of the coin in this regard. Some feminists want women to be able to be sexual, others don't want them to be sexual.

[Sparkly]

64. You've made the claim -- I'm wondering who YOU were referring to.

The cite you linked here is one I've never heard of. What makes you think these are feminists?

[joshcryer]

66. Here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pornography_movement#Feminist_objections

Simple to do a search. I don't know why the idea is so controversial. There are feminists on *both* sides of the issue. Why people are claiming otherwise is bizarre to me.

[Sparkly]

71. That's about pornography, not prostitution.

I'm aware of the arguments against pornography.

[joshcryer]

76. Leidholdt is against sex-positive feminism, for one.

I'm not going to be your researcher, though.

[Sparkly]

78. "I'm not going to be your researcher, though."

I think it helps when people post exactly what and who they're responding to when broad statements are made like this. The old "some say" is all too easy.

[joshcryer]

80. C'mon, haven't you heard of the Feminist Sex Wars?

This is such an obvious and deep rooted divide in the feminist community. Has gone on for awhile. Yes, shocker, there are feminists who are against prostitution as well as pornography.

[Sparkly]

82. I guess I'm unaware of a Feminist Sex War.

:shrug:

[Hannah Bell]

160. i'm aware of the labeling of certain beliefs as "sex-negative" &

"feminism" with the aim of denigrating them....

[Smith_3]

121. Actually I was referring to the other porn threads here on DU.

Where porn is equated to hate speech and so on. Just look around and you will see them.

[LisaL]

46. Considering prostitution is illegal, it's ridiculous to say that

what woman does with her body is her business. There are a lot of things one can do with ones body that are not legal.

[Ezlivin]

50. Because I wasn't available

Blame my wife.

:)

[bemildred]

53. They're sick sick sick.

We're all sick. Evil, every one of us. Wanting to do it all the time. It wasn't like this back in the old days, when people knew their place and everything. Back then, only the aristocrats were fucking everything that moved. We've fallen a long way from back then.
:sarcasm:

[defendandprotect]

56. So now porn is about women being able to make their own decisions . . .?

While there is no proof that is what they're actually doing --- ?

Looks like a bit of self-serving "spin" here to assuage your own need to masturbate

to porn which degrades females ---

[MsTryska]

83. oy vey. nt

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

57. these topics enrage me

because those who are so quick to defend the sex trade always skip the issue of causation and dwell on should a woman has the "right" to participate in the sex trade rather than address WHY they are participating in the sex trade. Working in a brothel in Chinatown or being reported to immigration or having your family at home murdered by snakeheads isn't much of a "choice" is it.

[girl gone mad]

59. I'm not patronizing other women.

I think women should be free to make whatever decision they want with regards to whom they have sex with and how. I just don't think payment should be involved, because once that happens sexual choice disappears and monetary enslavement enters the equation.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

60. So you're saying women can't handle money or business decisions.

Odd.

[joshcryer]

62. No, she's pointing out the coercive aspect of monetary relationships.

Of course, the same could be said of hamburger flippers! So the solution to this real problem is a bit complicated.

Get rid of money, problem solved, is the best way to go about it but I don't think this thread merits such a long and pervasive discussion!

However, the Sweden-esque pro-sex worker mentality is perhaps the middleground, and most feminists I know personally would have to agree. The anti-sex worker anti-pornography argument is a single issue critique that leaves the hamburger flippers or the tomato pickers or the Chinese doll makers out of the equation!

In the few places sexual relationships are legal in the USA (a place in Texas and in Nevada; mind you no where near any big city whatsoever), the health of the sex workers is to be commended, and you would be hard pressed, if you asked them the same way you ask a hamburger flipper, if they enjoy the work proportional to the money they make, if you asked them that question they would be more positive than that person spending 6 hours a day making in a month what the commodity sex worker makes in a day. (Mind you the only reason street hookers are so shit upon is that the government creates conditions for them that they are unable to get out of, and the recompense for their labor is far less than that which the market would arguably give them.)

Again, I am pretty much anti-sex worker but only for the coercive monetary relationship reasons. In the end, I always say, the likelihoood that a really pretty girl is going to have sex with an ugly unhealthy smelly man is so low as to be laughable, unless there's a coercive relationship there compelling them to do so (ie, money, the need or want to progress, etc). Such a scenario is probably about as unenjoyable as flipping hamburgers in a hot fast food restaurant kitchen.

[Sparkly]

65. Many or most workers are "coerced" by the need for money.

How many really love their jobs, and how many would quit in a heartbeat if they won the lottery? WHO DECIDES when the "coercive aspect of monetary relationships" should be criminalized? Whose business is it, really?

How about women (or men) trapped in unhappy marriages because of financial dependence; or people who clean toilets for a living, something others might consider "disgusting" or "degrading?"

How about a woman (or man) who has sex with twenty people a week? But if one leaves a dollar on the nightstand, it's criminal?

[joshcryer]

72. You can't make that decision in our current environment, that's what I'm saying.

You have to be pretty deluded to think that any monetary relationship is "voluntary." But again this thread doesn't merit such a long discussion.

The point is whether or not someone who has a sexual relationship for 20 minutes at $250 (the going rate for legal paid sex in Nevada; no I don't know from personal experience, it was actually on TV recently and it stuck in my mind), is having a better monetary relationship than a different person dipping french fries 8 hours a day for a week straight.

What do you think? Really now.

[Sparkly]

75. Sure I can.

The point is that it's not for YOU or ME to decide for someone ELSE what's "a better monetary relationship."

[joshcryer]

77. Correct, which is why it wouldn't hurt for pornograpy or commodity sex to be legalized.

Sweden is the best example of this.

[Sparkly]

79. I agree.

I thought we were disagreeing. :shrug:

[joshcryer]

84. Sorry, basically I am being vaguely anti-capitalist here.

Being as such it is impossible to actually agree with "sex workers" because they have a monetary relationship. I have followed the sex worker unionization stuff for quite awhile now, and while I find that their solutions are a middle way toward a more eventual goal, I feel that in the end their work is ultimately "unnecessary." Most pro sex workers are quite radical and their arguments go way beyond liberal feminism, imho.

It's an interesting thing because we can see sex workers makng similar arguments, that street prostitutes get paid very little yet legalized workers get paid a lot and so on. But then I extend the argument further to the people flipping hamburgers and I cannot reconcile the situation. There's no way for them to get *paid better.* To better themselves in general, no matter how hard they try.

Thus while I would side with sex workers I am against sex work, if that makes sense!

[Nikia]

61. If there were many women who would enjoy that sort of activity

Having sex with random, often undesireable strangers multiple times per day, there wouldn't be much of a demand for prostitutes would there?
I've gone back and forth on whether legalization would make things better. I don't think prostitution is a good thing though. I don't know if legalization would help destigmatize sex worker sor make the majority of their customers see them as human. There is still a stigma against legal "exotic dancers" and many of their customers don't see them as human either.

[joshcryer]

63. In our world the problem isn't people doing stuff they don't *really* want to do.

Because 90% of people by my reckoning (and I've met a lot of people) don't want to work or do anything, but they do it because they need a paycheck.

Those exotic dancers get paid a hell of a lot better than their street hooker analog. But in places where you have underground prostitution (prostitutes who go by word of mouth from client to client), you see profit returns beyond ones wildest dreams.

Ask any legal protitute if they'd switch their job for one shoveling shit or picking apples or any other laborous jobs that are out there and they would laugh in your face.

*Even if they said they didn't enjoy the work.*

[mrreowwr_kittty]

105. The customers would probably never see them as human.

Too many men have bought into the "happy hooker" myth and convince themselves that the women they purchase enjoy it. I'm for decriminalization, to the extent that prosecuted persons are not treated as criminals, and are given protection and assistance from the government.

As far as "legalization", it's akin to the immigration debate in some ways to me. While I'm completely in favor for amnesty for undocumented workers who are currently in our country now, I'm not entirely comfortable with the notion of guest worker programs, designed by corporations to funnel cheap exploitable labor to them. Sure, it may improve things temporarily for the people who are being exploited now, but it doesn't address the underlying systems that are predicated on treating a group of people as an expendable underclass. There is much overlap between sex work and the outsourcing of other labor. Supposedly, immigrants are doing "jobs that Americans won't do", whereas prostitutes and strippers and porn performers are doing "things my wife won't do" or "things I can't get a willing partner to do for me". When certain powerful people get accustomed to having a malleable and inexpensive labor force, they aren't inclined to give it up. That's true whether they are business owners or pimps or johns.

[Hugabear]

119. Sex is the only legal activity which is illegal to exchange money for

Maybe I'm just being silly, but I've always figured that freedom and allowing people to choose what they want to do with their bodies is their own business. People aren't always going to do what's best for their bodies, but should it be up to government to tell people what they can and cannot do? Especially when it involves two (or more) consenting adults behind closed doors?

[NeedleCast]

70. You Got It All Wrong

According to some feminists here on DU, the women's movement is about women making decisions based on what they perceive as acceptable.

[Skittles]

85. the way women are treated in society is EVERYONE'S BUSINESS n/t

[ismnotwasm]

90. You gotta look at the history of sex work

As well as feminism to understand. Now at one time I knew a lot of young male prostitutes, and I can tell you they faced the same exploitation and the same danger as did the females.

The industry itself is extremely corrupt. What drives the industry is male entitlement.
Why women get into it is because it's a readily available option without being a true choice. You can't choose to be exploited when your gender does that for you.

I fully support decriminalization of prostitution. I think they should throw tricks in jail for a while. Since that isn't going to happen, I think any person who buys sex and violates a verbal or written contract with violence or even failure to pay, should go to jail. For a while.


To me sexual morality or sexual enjoyment of sex workers has absolutely nothing to do with it. I don't differentiate between street prostitutes or escort service workers, madams or pimps, strippers or sex-phone operator's, Porn actors and Pinup of the Month. It's all sex for hire, one is not better, or more "moral" than the other, although exposing yourself physically alone with a stranger is considerably more dangerous.

I'm assuming that you are speaking of sex workers with a margin of safety, not your average street walker who has zero margin. If you're not, you best go back to sex industry school, because it's a very dangerous world out there.

If you don't know where to start, I suggest you find your local SMBD club. Those places can fill you in on risks and benefits of sex work, as well as how to advocate for these women you evidently care so much about. There are also local clinics and support groups for sex workers as well as shelters for victims of violence, Not enough, and in some areas not any at all. But if you really, truly give a shit about women in the sex industry and their rights, shut the fuck up with your feminist baiting, get off your ass and go help some people

[readmoreoften]

107. They're often the same people who pushed butches and femmes out of the lesbian movement in the 70s

femmes were "bringin' down the female species" and butches were "impersonating men."

Most of them were married heterosexuals by the mid-80s. Like Dworkin.

[notadmblnd]

108. women have always been their own worst enemies.

I don't know why. Call it cattiness or petty jealousies. I don't necessarily think that it is a bad thing for a woman to make money of her body if that is her choice. How would giving it away be any better?

[Prophet 451]

125. *sigh* I see the flames already started

Problem with talking about sex work is that everyone wants to boil it down to simple cliches. There's about fifty of them in this thread alone, like the gangbang arguement (I'd do that for free). Also, there's two seperate issues here.

Porn - Now, firstly, every single anti-porn campaigner I've ever met completely ignores the massive market in gay porn because it doesn't fit into the exploitation script they've already prepared. Is the porn industry exploitative? You betcha. The women are usually underpaid (one or two "name" performers aside) and there are few protections for them. The industry needs some major regulation, no arguement there. The idea that any real percentage of performers are literal slaves is, a little like the old "white slavery" panic, something there's little actual evidence for outside a couple of isolated incidents. Does it go on in, say, Brazil? Yep and that's a tragedy. Does it go on in the USA? Not in any real numbers. No, there isn't a large market in female porn, at least, not in teh form of photo and film. However, firstly, that may well be connected to the fact that until quite recently, women were (and in some places, still are) made to feel ashamed of their sexuality (and if someone can think of a way of solving this, I'd love to hear it. Sexually liberated women who aren't ashamed to say so, fantastic). Secondly, that men tend to have more disposable income (and yes, that needs to be corrected) and thirdly, the sexual responses of men and women tend to be different. Men tend to be aroused by visual means, women by mental means (that's a very broad generalisation but statistically accurate). That would explain the growing success of written porn produced for women and in some cases, by women (such as the Black Lace imprint).

Granted, many of the women who perform in porn do so out of economic necessity. I've known several of them. However, even if you improve the opportunities for women, there will always be some women who are exhibitionists and who will make amateur porn for their own enjoyment (surf around LiveJournal and you'll probably find a few). I've known a few of these too. Some set up their own websites and make a few bucks at it but their production of porn is primarily for their own enjoyment, the money is just a nice bonus. They don't fit into the script either so they just get ignored. If these women enjoy exhibiting their sexuality to willing viewers, who am I or anyone else to tell them they shouldn't? Sure, amateur porn is different than professional production (although the advances in technology are making the practical differences minimal) but the point is the same. Remove the lack of opportunities for women in society (which I agree is a problem), remove the porn industry's exploitation of it's performers (which I'll also agree is a problem, do porn performers have a union?). Remove those and concentrate on the actual porn itself. Is the existance of porn inherantly harmful to women? I don't think it is. Porn has existed for as long as we have evidence for and in societies which treated women far better than we do. Likewise, while there's any amount of anecdotes about porn leading to the degradation of women, the actual evidence is utterly inconclusive. The anti-porn books that come out (one of which was touted here endlessly) don't contain much actual evidence, they contain almost entirely emotional rhetoric. I'm not unreasonable but if you want to ban something (and although no-one says so, that's clearly the undertone), show me the evidence that it's actually harmful.

Moreover, the line between art and porn isn't clear-cut. Depictions of sex, even group sex, aren't uncommon in art stretching back to pre-history. Is "Anal Angels Gangbang" porn? Obviously (I have no idea if this film actually exists) but how about "In The Realm Of The Senses" or "Choses Secretes", both of which feature explicit sex? Who gets to make the judgement, you? Me? John Ashcroft? Also, let's explain how the existence and massive commercial success of gay porn is degrading to women. If straight porn is degrading to women then gay porn is, logically, degrading to men and yet, I have never once heard anyone ever complain about that. Rather the complaint seems to be that the exploitation of female sexuality is an utter evil but the exploitation of male sexuality is A-OK.

It's not as simple an issue as the anti-porn campaigners want it to be. They'd also win far more points with me if they actually tried using facts and evidence instead of emotional arguement and argued from logic instead of just hand-waving away any objections or pretending that the views you mentioned in the OP don't exist.

Prostitution is a little more straightforward. If a woman simply enjoys sex with strangers (and some do), then fine and there are a few women who do this and (much like the amateur porn producers above) make a few bucks at it but, by and large, we're not talking about the street-walkers that people usually think of when you say "prostitute". I've known a couple of these women too. They do it for the sex, enjoy it and make a few bucks at it, I have no problem with that.

Then there's the callgirl. The callgirl is in it for the money but usually better treated and better paid that the street-walker. Some do it because they can't find any other work, some do it because they find it an easy way of making a living. I've never known any of these women and I'm not sure what to make of them.

The street-walkers that people think of when you say "prostitute" are usually deeply messed up. Statistically, drug addictions are common as is violence of various kinds. Although a few are there by choice, they are very few. The vast majority are there by necessity. I've known a few of these women (never as a customer). Obviously, there need to be more opportunities for women in our society but beyond that obvious necessity, I'm somewhat at a loss for how you tackle this. Attempts to stamp out street prostitution have never been successful and, barring a police state, never will be. The results of legalisation have been mixed. In some places, it works well. In others, it's been a disaster for the women. So how you go about solving this is beyond me.

Incidently, my other half works in the sex business. She's a phone sex operator, one of those people who answer the phone when you dial one of those ads in the back pages of magazines. She's not exploited. If anything, her customers are exploited since they pay simply staggering amounts of money for these phone calls.

[MsTryska]

127. Great post!

very well said. i used to be a PSO too!

[ZombieHorde]

130. I predict that your post will be ignored, or you will be called names.

Or the reply will have little to do with what you wrote.

[Prophet 451]

133. Meh, I'm used to it

I've discovered that porn, much like abortion, firearms or Irish nationalism, is one of those subjects where people tend to react from the gut and then try and find justifications for that, rather than studying evidence and drawing conclusions.

[Swamp Rat]

134. "I'd do that for free."

:rofl:

"Let's DOooOOooOOooOOO IT!!"



:D

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

145. As an aside, the porn industry in Brazil is about as regulated as in the US. -nt

[Prophet 451]

157. That's a surprise

But, as I said above, I'd fully support some proper regulation in the industry.

[windoe]

126. To me the core issue is about control and freedom

people who are most vocal and critical of others for their free lifestyles are acting out an inner sensitivity to this issue. Often I see women who are the most patronizing and insulting to women for their choices are themselves the most constrained.

I have a very liberal view on prostitution and believe it should be supported and legalized, and monitored to make sure violence, human trafficking and child abuse do not happen. To believe the oldest profession will go away is delusional, just like drug use and other pursuits of pleasure.

The pursuit of sex and drugs is the pursuit of pleasure, and in a repressive society, these indulgences become distorted, twisted and sick. When you are deprived of enough pleasure, it is perfectly natural to seek it out--but not natural to do it at the expense of your own or another's safety or health.

This is an important issue for women to discuss, since it is women who give consent to this form of pleasure (or it is not pleasure at all), plus they are the ones raising and influencing the attitudes of their sons and other men to form healthy attitudes about their own bodies and to respect the bodies of others in intimacy.

[aspergris]

131. except often, leaders in the women's movement HAVEN'T been about letting women make their decisions

I happen to be more libertarian minded (socially) than many in the women's movement who are way too eager to want to limit women's (and men's ) choices when they find the choices unacceptable - prostitution and pornography are two obvious examples.


Heck, many first wave feminists (and many to this date) don't believe that women choosing to be "stay at home" mom's is a valuable and worthwhile choice, either.

It was simone de beauvoir who (somewhat) famously said (quoting from memory) "women should not be given the choice to stay at home and raise children, because if they are given the choice, too many women will choose that choice"

CLASSIC patronization.
Imo, feminism (and humanism for that matter) should be about the law treating women and men equally - equal choices, equally responsible for their actions, etc.

Women or men should be able to seek cosmetic surgery, for instance, even though there are numerous risks associated with same. Women or men should be able to choose to prostitute their bodies. This isn't because I think prostitution is good. Imo, it's disgusting and degrading. But it's not govt's job to tell people they can't do it. it's THEIR bodies.

[raccoon]

140. Oh, sure, prostitutes do the work they do because they ENJOY sex.

:sarcasm:

Yeah, they enjoy ugly, possibly unwashed, possibly physically abusive johns.

You think johns are all, or even mostly, good-looking dudes? :rofl:

"Is it so hard to accept that a woman can enjoy uncommitted sex with strangers? " What a dumbass idea.


However, I feel that prostitution should be legalized. It's always existed and it always will.


"IMO it is just another way of saying that a woman who is promiscuous is something to be looked down upon."

Our society (in general) looks down on promiscuous women. Every society I've ever heard of does. I'm not saying it's right. The double standard is still very much alive and well.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

141. Either someone's life will be intolerable unless they prostitute themselves, or it won't.

If it will be, then by banning them from doing so you're making their life intolerable (and, at that point, your society has problems considerably more severe than prostitution).

If it won't be, they have a free choice, and should not be coerced by the state.

[truebrit71]

142. I just wanted to interject here that I like big tits...

... Carry on with the flame fest.... :evilgrin:

[Lilith Velkor]

144. So do I

Big cocks are nice, too.

[BlooInBloo]

164. BEWBIES!!!!!

:P

[LWolf]

150. In all honesty,

it has never crossed my mind that a porn actress or a prostitute actually liked the sex she was being paid for.

They are being paid for a performance, which has nothing to do with their real feelings about it. I think that performance should be legal. I also think that all women should have other options available so that the choice to engage in that performance is made freely, without coercion or financial threat.

Of course, I don't have much exposure to either prostitution or porn, by choice. I did once know an "exotic" dancer; she was pretty clear that it was all about the money, and that behind the friendly performance, she didn't have much respect for her customers.

I'm a woman. I know the difference between being valued by men as a human being, and/or as a sex object. I would like my fellow women to be valued for their humanity, not for what functions their bodies serve.

[BlooInBloo]

163. Academic feminists are just divided on this. Just the way it goes.