This thread is NOT about whether or not porn is harmful/less.

[ZombieHorde]

What is porn?

From Dictionary.com -
porn
noun
creative activity (writing or pictures or films etc.) of no literary or artistic value other than to stimulate sexual desire

How does one determine literary or artistic value? Is the movie Caligula porn?

What do you think porn is?

[musette_sf]

1. i thought "Caligula"

had something for everybody.

[ZombieHorde]

2. That may be, but I still won't let my 7 and 3 year olds watch it.

[musette_sf]

7. oh i agree completely re: kids

i saw it in some long gone dollar theatre in Houston, and i remember my first words after it was over was "well, THAT had something for everybody...".

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Caligula? The Tinto Brass version?

No, that's art.

Porn is the stuff you masturbate with.

[ZombieHorde]

13. The one staring McDowell.

http://www.caligulathemovie.com/Program.html

[guitar man]

88. wow

by that definition, my Musicians Friend catalog is porn, especially the guitar and amp sections. :silly:

[readmoreoften]

4. Kind of like commercials?

Or is it okay when married to the "socially productive value" of selling widgets?

Other than this question, I defer. I hate porn threads.

[redqueen]

6. ... commercials using sexual arousal to sell stuff

that's secondary to the selling, so... not porn.

[readmoreoften]

84. But "porn" itself is secondary to the selling of website and magazine subscriptions.

Or, according to anti-porn feminism, the sexual arousal of porn is only secondary to its "degradation of women."

[sentelle]

5. That definition

is a bit nebulous: stimulating sexual desire is not universal. Some people are more jaded than others.

My personal definition of porn is the display of sexual organs in a manner that explicitly shows, or simulates an act of foreplay or coitus.

[billyoc]

8. What is porn? Cheaper than dating.

[redqueen]

9. Dating is all about sex?

Geez... *sigh* :(

how about... cheaper than prostitutes.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

10. Isn't it?

In the long run?

[redqueen]

No.

Not for me... but I know I'm the weirdo on this, so... that's why I don't date!

[RadiationTherapy]

24. You are not a weirdo on this!

it is just so "cool" to be jaded and have low expectations of relationships.

Being in a secure, long term relationship has freed me to learn so much more about myself and partner and daughter. It is the most rewarding thing i have ever participated in in my life.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

32. So, you'd go on a romantic date with someone you'd never have sex with?

Like your dad?

[redqueen]

34. Why romantic? If I barely know the person, how is it romantic?

Why aren't people interested in actually getting to know someone as friends before jumping in the sack?

[seabeyond]

36. because that is not what the culture of today is conditioning us for.

maybe that is also why these select people are so cynical too.... bah hahahah. funny the ironic.

i am all for the hit and run. i did that in my time on occassion. but i knew it for what it was and that was not the only way to do single. at a certain time the getting to know the person is a pretty good thing to.

[redqueen]

41. Well yeah, but

hit and run is not dating... that's just... hit and run.

With "dating", I think of courting... getting to know someone... and I don't know why people assume it's expensive. Parks are free. Walks are free. Hikes are free. Lots of stuff that two people can do while getting to know each other is free.

:shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

68. why is it the people who have the most problem getting sex are the ones who reduce everything to it?

To me, finding a stimulating conversationalist is a hell of a lot harder than getting laid in the dating scene. Finding sex is easy, you don't need a complex structure of social interaction to know if you would fuck someone. The question is finding out if they're WORTH keeping around the morning after. Dating is NOT getting wasted at a meat-market bar for an hour and coming home with a hot beef injection or whatever floats your boat.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

40. Err, because the whole point is sex in the long run.

If it's completley platonic, then it's not a date, it's just two people going out for dinner and a movie.

[redqueen]

42. Ugh. Whatever. Like I said - no dating is fine with me. (nt)

[Runcible Spoon]

65. sex is ONE point, not THE point. But you already knew that, didn't you?

I swear to Jebus disingenuity is like a chronic disease with you. What do you gain from your constant nasty nit picking, straw man construction, intentional oversimplification, and intentionally disingenuous mischaracterization of pretty much EVERY thread upon which you anoint with your special brand of petulant, eternally negative, holier-and also-infinitely-more-clever-than-thou attitude? You are a legend...in the lonely, miserable, narrow little confines of your mind.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Mmm, no. Pretty sure sex is the point.

Which is why people don't marry, say, their dad. Or children. Or people of the gender opposite of what their orientation would call for.

It'd also be why they stop dating other people after getting married.

Well, in theory at least.

[Runcible Spoon]

69. There are a complex set of social and biological reasons we do or don't marry certain people

to reduce it to a simple biological function, even one as strong as the drive to mate, is intellectually lazy and simple-minded. Believe it or not, there are people who are asexual or sexually dysfunctional and choose lifemates where sex is not even an option. I'm sure they're all just failed freaks in your worldview.

On edit: please do not extrapolate your personal skank-fucking as dating behavior of the rest of society.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

71. Not really.

Before marriage was invented there was fucking. Before marriage there was monogamous fucking. Marriage was invented just to pretty much make monogamous fucking official.

"There are a complex set of social and biological reasons we do or don't marry certain people"

Well, they used to have complicated sets of rules like marrying within your class, race, age, etc.

But nowadays you pretty much marry the person you want to be fucking for the rest of your life.

"On edit: please do not extrapolate your personal skank-fucking as dating behavior of the rest of society."

Geez louise, why so hostile? It's because I hit the nail on the head, isn't it?

[Runcible Spoon]

83. ya hit something all right.

hope ya used a condom.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

87. Why would we use a condom?

We've been happily married long enough to be your grandparents.

[rebecca_herman]

48. Not exactly

Basically for me dating is about getting to know someone to see if they are the right person to marry and try to have a life long relationship with. I would not date a man who expected that sex would have to be a part of it from the start. I'm not sure if I want to wait for marriage, or being engaged, or a long term relationship (I just know that it would be one of those three, always leaned toward marriage but not with 100% certainty), but I don't exactly consider that "dating" at that point. I just know that for me sex in a casual relationship with someone I just met doesn't feel right *for me.*

So for me dating isn't for sex, it's about seeing if that person is right for a serious relationship which would then obviously include sex at some point. If the guy isn't ok with that then he and I aren't compatible anyway. But the most common attitude about sex these days does make me fear dating a bit which is why I haven't gone out on a date in a long time. Maybe someday I'll get up the nerve to try again.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Same thing.

Marriage is about sex, dating is about finding a potential spouse, ergo it's about sex.

[rebecca_herman]

53. Well yeah in the long run it is but

I wouldn't have sex with someone I was only dating. So I could end up dating many people I never have sex with. I could also never meet the right person and thus never get any sex out of it. But I see such a common attitude these days where people are looking to date for an immediate sex partner which is what frightens me away from dating. So I guess I meant my personal view on dating for me, in contrast to the common use of dating being used for immediate sex, whereas I'd rather it never lead to sex if it turned out not to be someone I'd want to try and stay with for life.

Honestly though, I personally feel if it weren't for the fact I want companionship, love, and someone to raise children with, I could probably go my whole life without sex. It's just never been something I've had a huge interest in, only really care to have it, if it's part of that bigger package. Overall, I think I'd be ok with never having sex, if I never met the right person. I'd regret missing out on the other things far more. Sex is apart of marriage sure and in an ideal situation of course I'd want great sex in the marriage, but, for me it's not the most important thing I think about when I think about marriage, I mainly think about companionship, sharing life goals and interests, and raising a family. I'm pretty sure I could live with mediocre sex easily if everything else was great.

[Boojatta]

62. You're just quoting dialogue from the novel Brave New World, aren't you?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. No. Why?

Do you take issue with anything I've said?

[Firespirit]

28. Yep

Biologically, that's exactly what it is... and I don't mean the drive to spawn, just the drive to find someone that they call a "mate."

The only significant other I'm interested in having a long-term relationship with:

[billyoc]

18. I wouldn't know WHAT it's all about, it's too expensive.

[Skittles]

82. pretty much explains why he is dateless n/t

[sentelle]

60. so is Masturbation...

and most things are cheaper than dating....

[Ian David]

11. Everything after the point where the Pizza Guy takes off his shirt is porn. n/t

[Indenturedebtor]

26. I thought I was the only one they did that to.... n/t

[originalpckelly]

12. P'orn: abbreviation for the word popcorn.

[readmoreoften]

85. now that's the kind of p'orn I like!

Some buttery p'orn with a good movie.

[Warpy]

14. None of it particularly floats my boat.

However, the line for me is drawn when it's produced. If a woman or child is harmed in its production, then it's deeply offensive.

Other than that, I don't care what blows somebody else's hair back.

[ZombieHorde]

17. What if a man or hermaphrodite is harmed?

[OneBlueSky]

15. to paraphrase a SCOTUS justice . . .

can't recall which one (Frankfurter maybe?) . . .

"I know it when I see it." . . .

actually, for some people violence stimulates sexual desire . . . does that make all those "action" films (and the Nightly News) pornographic? . . .

inquiring minds want to know . . .:shrug:

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. Pauline Kael called most of it, "The history of the piston engine."

For the most part, I think it's rather boring.

[Firespirit]

19. IMHO,

Porn includes written erotica and explicit romance novels.

If the main subject matter of the piece is sex, it's porn.

[ZombieHorde]

20. If the main subject matter of the piece is sex, it's porn.

Does that include this thread?

edit to add: I think that your definition is one of the best I have seen, though there may still be some problems with it.

[Firespirit]

21. I'm waiting for some jackass to make an explicit or obscene post

At that point, yep, I'd say it qualifies.

[ZombieHorde]

22. obscene post

Does that make FreeRepub a porn site?

[Firespirit]

23. That site has pretty strict rules about profanity

Let alone sex posts. It's an offensive site, a hateful site, but not porn.

What are you trying to prove, exactly?

[ZombieHorde]

25. It was a joke at the expense of FR.

I am just trying to lighten the mood before it grows heavy.

[RadiationTherapy]

27. If porn included erotica, it would be called porn.

So when I learned about sex in my health class? Porn?

[Firespirit]

29. I shudder to think what would happen if I offered my real opinion on sex ed in schools here.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. You're against them?

My goodness.

[Firespirit]

35. Let's put it this way.

If the fundies know nothing about condoms, then when they break their stupid little vows, they get what's coming to them for being self-righteous hypocrites.

Well-informed fundies = fundies that survive and spawn more fundies. Because they NEVER get past their hypocrisy about sex, condoms or not.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

39. Well we weren't talking abotu fundies.

We were talking about public school students. Should they get STDs just because some techincally grown adults are uncomfortable with sex?

[Firespirit]

43. Not my problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. But sex education is your problem?

Not a lot of logical consistency there.

[Firespirit]

45. I had to listen to it despite knowing it was useless information for me AND

the topic bothered me to hear about. OCD, germ-phobic. Revolting.

So yes, it was indeed my problem.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

46. Fine.

So what's the difference between you and the fundie prudes?

[Firespirit]

47. I'm not a hypocrite.

Mid twenties, never "done it" in any way shape or form, and don't intend to.

I can offer my position without it being tainted by rank hypocrisy.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

50. You can?

Isn't it hypocritical to be against teaching things you've already learned?

[Firespirit]

52. About as hypocritical as it is to oppose torture after being a POW.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. Hmm.

Sounds more like being against the Geneva Conventions after being a POW.

You got yours, screw everybody else.

[EOTE]

61. You compare sex-ed to torture?

You must have had some rotten teachers. Sex isn't a dirty thing, but one should be informed about it as much as possible before participating in it.

[Runcible Spoon]

70. that whole exchange above was bizarre.

I thought it was hilarious, like watching some twisted psychological experiment.

[Firespirit]

74. And if you know that you have no intention in participating,

period, marriage or no, because the concept revolts you on a primal level, possibly you should get exempted from that.

NOPE. And it's because of mandated sex ed advocates that there are no exemptions. This notion that "we know what's best and you'll come around in time." 10 years later and I'm no closer to coming around.

I'd like a hysterectomy as well, but a doctor will refuse to do it on the basis of "what if you change your mind?" I'd have to get a sex-change surgeon to have that done, and I doubt I'd qualify as transgendered. The culture foists a "correct" lifestyle and set of priorities on you and makes it all but impossible for you if you reject that.

[EOTE]

76. Sex ed doesn't say that you SHOULD have sex.

It informs kids of the consequences of sex should they choose to have it. It also teaches them the best way to avoid those consequences should they choose to have sex. You are confusing sex ed with sex advocacy. Without sex ed there will be lots more unwanted pregnancies and a far greater rate of transmission of STDs. It's unequivocally a good thing.

[Firespirit]

78. Then it should be optional for students who are curious.

I don't see what's so difficult about this.

And, BTW, I assure you it absolutely is "advocacy." These tales of schools teaching abstinence only crack me up; I sure never saw any evidence of it in the curriculum.

[EOTE]

80. I have no problem with being able to opt out of it.

But as for sex ed being sex advocacy, I could't disagree more. Just because a school doesn't endorse abstinence only does not mean that they're advocating sex. It means that they recognize that some students will be having sex with or without a sex ed curriculum so they choose to inform the students about sex so they can have sex in the safest way possible.

[Evoman]

91. I find you interesting and want to know more about you.

Is there a reason that you don't like sex on a primal level? Feel free to tell me to fuck off if it's too personal.

[RadiationTherapy]

31. Abstinence only, huh?

[Firespirit]

33. I happen to think that fundamentalist hypocrites get exactly what they deserve, is all.

[EOTE]

64. And screw the rest of the population as well?

We're all in this together. Perhaps if the fundies became educated, they wouldn't be fundies anymore.

[Firespirit]

73. In a word: yes. On this, screw the rest of the population.

Serves them right for rutting like animals without making the slightest attempt to become educated on their own.

I figured my real opinion would have this reaction.

If fundies become educated, you've just got educated fundies. It IS possible. People can go through accredited college programs, maybe even get Ph.D.s, and remain fundamentalist.

[EOTE]

75. Would you say the same thing about math? Social studies?

Serves them right for not having a decent science program. Or math program or english program. Those lazy kids should have gone to the library and learned on their own. :sarcasm:

The biggest reason for sex education is that it teaches about the consequences of sex to children who are not old enough to make consistently wise decisions. It's not just fundies who would make stupid decisions about sex when they're younger. It's not just fundies getting pregnant in high school. Everyone should have access to this information from an age where the information can do them the most good.

With regards to fundies, I'd venture to say that an educated fundie is better than an uneducated fundie.

[Firespirit]

77. I just don't agree

I don't really care about "the consequences of sex" any more than I care about the consequences of racing in NASCAR, or using hard drugs, or some other high-risk behavior. As I said, it's not my problem if I choose not to be a part of that world. I don't see why that world must be forced upon me anyway.

And with regard to general education, that was exactly what I had. Poor science, history, and literature programs. I took the initiative to become well informed on subjects that were of interest to me, and the result was that it set me apart from the rest of my classmates. It is not in my self-interest to support spoon-feeding people knowledge that is freely available if they would only take the opportunity to look. That is artificially created equality. (Note that this view does not apply to wealth and employment, as they are not freely and publicly available for the taking.)

[EOTE]

79. I didn't want physics forced upon me. Or spelling.

But they were part of my rounded education. Most of the crap I learned in high school I have no practical application for today. I don't resent learning it however, because as Emerson said "There is no knowledge that is not power." At the very worst, knowledge can be something that you'll forget in time. The point is that sex is something the great bulk of people will experience in their life time. Others shouldn't be denied sex education simply because of a small segment of the population who never intends to have sex.

[Firespirit]

81. Then why not allow exemptions?

I mean, hell, they exempt you if evolution offends your belief in ridiculous mythology.

I still support fundamentalist hypocrites getting STDs. And as for the uninformed, well, what I said stands. If they are that interested in sex, let them do their own research.

[EOTE]

89. Who said I didn't want exemptions?

It seemed to me like you were suggesting sex-ed not be available. That was what I had a problem with.

[sentelle]

54. I think erotica

CAN also be porn.
Not all erotica has sex acts (described or simulated) in them. Some of it simply titilates the imagination.

By calling something porn does not IMO, neccesarily mean its bad either.

[RadiationTherapy]

57. Erotica, though often done poorly, at least intends for there to be some level

of literature/cinematography/plot lines.

[seabeyond]

58. erotica to me is a mutual empowerment. porn is one with power

hence why i feel porn is degrading to women. i think porn is made for the male. yes some women enjoy porn, but i do not think it is for them. it is solely for male entertainment.

[RadiationTherapy]

63. I really like that take on it.

Though most erotica is not graphic enough for my taste.

I don't watch porn that uses "bitch" "slut" "whore" "teen" in the description.

[sentelle]

59. Literature et.al

again presumes some subjectivity.

For me its simple. Porn is one thing, erotica another. Some movies (for example 'Kama Sutra') does both.
'Caligula' to my values takes the Porn part to an egregious extreme, and no, I will not call it art.

More like one of those things that after a few hours of it, you need to FF through the naughty parts.

[MrModerate]

37. I think the definition is flawed . . .

"literary or artistic value" (specifically "value") have no particular relation to "stimulate."

I'd buy "no purpose other than to stimulate . . ."

The "value" part seems to me a judgement call that not everyone would agree with. Me for instance. He's an example: The Victorian-era writings of Frank Harris. Clearly porn by the "I can't define it but I know it when I see it" definition that the Supreme Court used for years. And yet, there is some literary value (and historical and perhaps artistic) there -- which doesn't mean it's not porn.

Which is for me another reason porn shouldn't be legislated against (except to control minor children's exposure to it). Even if "artistic value" is moot, that shouldn't have any bearing on porn's overall legitimacy. It simply *is* and has the same existential rights as the output of any other "creative activity."

[napoleon_in_rags]

49. Yeah, well said.

It simply is. The whole intractibility of this debate shows me that we should not be debating it at all. Protect kids, and keep the government out of defining "artistic value" or "stimulating" for consenting adults.

[islandmkl]

38. to paraphrase an old SCOTUS judge:

i'll know it when i'm in it....

[HughMoran]

56. Porn?

Where? :P

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

72. "The bible is a book that...has a wealth of obscentiy.." - Mark Twain

"The bible is a book that has some beautiful poetry, a blood stained history, a wealth of obscenity, and upwards of 10,000 lies." - Mark Twain

[edbermac]

86. I consider Fox News to be porn.

I know it when I see it, as the saying goes. Nothing socially redeeming about it.

:patriot:

[MsTryska]

90. heh....

"you know it when you see it."