Should the Roman Catholic Church allow women to be priests?

[Breeze54]

Should the Roman Catholic Church allow women to be priests?

Click this link to take the survey at the newspaper:
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/index.html

Results so far:

Yes - 1646 - 67%

No -724 - 30%

I'm not sure - 84 - 3%

3 Catholic Women To Be Ordained Priests

UPDATED: 6:17 pm EDT July 18, 2008

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/mostpopular/16920636/detail.html

Boston Archdiocese Says Trio Will Be Excommunicating Themselves

BOSTON --

Three Catholic women will be ordained as priests in a Back Bay neighborhood church this weekend, despite the Vatican's admonition that the trio will be excommunicated if they do so.

"Excommunication or not, I will still be a validly ordained priest and still will be able to serve the people of God," said Gabriella Velardi Ward, 61, a Staten Island architect and mother of two.

VIDEO: 3 Catholic Women To Be Ordained Priests
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/video/16925315/index.html

Also a grandmother of three, Ward said she has wanted to be a priest ever since she was five years old and once considered becoming a nun, but felt the priesthood was her true calling because she wants to be able to celebrate the sacraments.

She will be joined by Gloria Carpeneto, of Baltimore, and Judy Lee, of Florida. Mary Ann McCarthy Schoettly, of Newton, N.J., will be ordained as a deacon.

The Vatican, however, said the ordinations would be illegal and the Boston Archdiocese sent out an e-mail to all priests saying that women who try to receive sacred orders and priests who try to confer them are automatically separating themselves from the church.

The Catholic Church has always said women cannot be priests because Jesus did not have female Apostles.

The ordination ceremony will take place Sunday at the Church of the Covenant on Newbury Street, which is affiliated with two Protestant denominations, the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Church of Christ, the Boston Globe reported.

The church, which has a female pastor, offered to let the ordination take place there as a way of supporting and encouraging the women's group.

The trio will be ordained by Dana Reynolds, of California, a woman who was consecrated as a bishop in Germany in April.

They are all part of an organization called Roman Catholic Womenpriests, which has been holding ordination ceremonies for women since 2002; the organization says there are now 28 women Catholic priests in the United States, according to the Globe.

The group says its ordinations are valid because its first female priests were ordained by bishops who were in good standing with the Vatican. They won't reveal the names so those bishops can avoid sanctions.

The Boston ordinations will coincide with the first Boston conference of four organizations that are pushing for the admission of married men, as well as of women, to the priesthood.

Jean Marchant, who once worked for the Boston Archdiocese's healthcare ministry, has already been ordained and, together with her husband, serves a small Catholic congregation in Weston, Mass.

Should the Roman Catholic Church allow women to be priests?

[fortyfeetunder]

1. The Catholic Church needs to get in the 21st Century

"The Catholic Church has always said women cannot be priests because Jesus did not have female Apostles."

Well, in the 21st century, they seem to have a shortage of MALE candidates who don't want to sacrifice a balanced life and practice celibacy to minister to their congregations. Looks like the Catholic Church should adapt, or go extinct.

OTOH, the Episcopal Church has both married and women priests, and they are doing just fine.

[Breeze54]

2. I'm quite surprised that the overwhelming response in the poll

in the newspaper survey is YES!! Especially in this town,

which has a very high Catholic population.

I agree, why not have female priests? :shrug:

That's one thing that has irked me about the Catholic church.

The patriarchal, "males only" attitude! :grr:

[JerseygirlCT]

104. If there were any such thing as democracy in the RCC,

the American church would have had women priests years and years ago.

But it's most definitely not. It's quite authoritarian, and the big boys with the red hats in Rome are desperately afraid of girl cooties.

[noamnety]

7. Funny reason they give

"women cannot be priests because Jesus did not have female Apostles."

By that logic, the church should also excommunicate all priests who aren't the same race as the original Apostles.

[Breeze54]

9. Good point!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[HawkerHurricane]

25. Heck...

all the original Apostles were Jewish, too...

[defendandprotect]

58. Priests are still wearing dresses ---

and clean shaven because the original "priests" were females ---

[Hippo_Tron]

130. Shhhh, don't give them any ideas

:spank:

[Bill McBlueState]

45. I find it odd that they use that argument

Jesus didn't have any German apostles either, but there's no rule that Germans can't be priests.

If they were serious about restricting the priesthood to the specific type of people that Jesus chose as his apostles, the Catholic Church would have to be kidnapping Palestinian men and forcing them to go to seminary.

on edit: oops, lwfern already said this a few hours ago...

[Boojatta]

125. Do Palestinian men have a habit of quoting the Old Testament?

[exothermic]

3. That's really close to the top of my "don't give a shit either way" list.

:shrug:

[Breeze54]

4. But you didn't vote in my poll.

:P

[2Design]

5. its a cult - disband them - too many brainwashed - need deprogramming effort with all of these

religions - they are all nuts

[Breeze54]

8. It's a cult? I don't agree.

It is organized religion, though. imho. They can have it if they want it.
Freedom of Religion is still alive and well, last I heard.

[defendandprotect]

59. It is a cult . . .

a cult of male superiority . . .

which harms us all ---

They are free to practice their religion ---

we are free to criticize it and recognize the harm it does.

[Zhade]

78. An organized religion is just a cult with more people, time and money.

It's all made-up mythology in either case.

[spoony]

13. Did you have a telegraph office write that post?

Disband them! Stop
Too many brainwashed! Stop

Or are you just another "bright" in the DU skies that falls to earth every time religion is mentioned in its presence?

[DailyGrind51]

27. Actually, it is just the opposite!

Too many went into the priesthood with their own agendas, some were fleeing the responsibilities of the secular world, some for a phony appearance of piety, some to conceal sexual confusion, and some, just because it seemed like a good idea at the time. In a cult, they would all be brainwashed to adhere to the cult's agenda and no other. I know five priests who left the priesthood to get married, one who actually worked for the archdiocesan marriage tribunal and one who married an ex-nun.

[defendandprotect]

60. You missed one of the essentials of a "cult" -- getting them while they're young . . .

Youngsters are given over to this brainwashing at very early ages ---

but also traditionally, they would start picking off young boys very early

for the seminaries --- too early for them to know anything about life or their

sexuality.

Kind of like the military --- and with all the "anti-female" propaganda, as well.

[DailyGrind51]

97. What do you really know about the priesthood?

With kids dating earlier, there isn't a great deal they don't know about sex, which is why there are fewer vocations to the priesthood. When guys want out, they get out, without harassment or the necessity of deprogramming. I've been a Catholic for nearly all of my 57 years, had an uncle who was a priest, went to school with a number of people who joined the seminary or convent, most of whom have left to enter other careers. You might be thinking of a priesthood that might have existed 50 years ago, but certainly, not in recent years. If the priesthood was really a cult, do you really believe Father Michael Pfleger would still be pastor at St. Sabina's? The Archdiocese here does not dare mess with him, or for that matter, Father Andrew Greeley, Chicago Sun-Times columnist, unabashed critic of Bush AND the Church hierarchy, and author of some fairly descriptive novels.

[defendandprotect]

117. We know what the Italians have told us . . .

that the sexual abuse has been going on for 2000 years . . .


First, the history of the church is to take the young --
people give their children over to the church at the earliest of ages to begin indoctrination.
Do you deny that --- ???

In general, SOME young people have more knowledge --
those who are home schooled; those who are victims of "abstinence" teachings, may not.
And, especially those under the influence of teachings related to intolerance for
homosexuality may not come to terms with their own sexual orientation out of fear/shame.

Celibacy has limited "vocations" -- which is a clear signal of a church hierarchy in denial.
They don't want to pay the freight for married priests.

Sexual abuse scandals have also limited "vocations."

And, notice that most of us who have left the church continue to refer to ourselves as
"Recovering Catholics." That suggests "CULT-LIKE" impact on our lives.

The history of the priesthood is not incidental to what it is today ---
older generations still lead the church -- still follow archaic teachings.

Also, let's reflect on the fact that the church has overturned "liberation theology."

And continues to fight against female priests.

The Enlightenment has not yet reached the Vatican ---

[DailyGrind51]

140. The fact that sickos have gotten in

proves that any brainwashing they supposedly do, is not effective. You can believe the superstition if you like. If you read my earlier posts, you know that I agree with women and married priests, but I have known priests my entire life and none of what you say is based on anything but anti-Catholic superstition like what John Hagee has been spreading. The priesthood is flawed and in need of reform, but a "cult"? Now, Amway is another thing! ;-)

[DailyGrind51]

6. AND, priests should be permitted to marry!

The priesthood is not a form of therapy to work out sexual identity issues, it is a vocation. A married priesthood would attract seminarians with healthy well-formed sexual identities.

[PDJane]

10. and give the priests some idea of

what married life is like. I always thought that a celibate man counselling married couples was a really bad idea.

[DailyGrind51]

18. Damn right!

I was sitting in a room with other divorced Catholics listening to some celibate from the Archdiocese lecturing us about activities we consenting adults could still engage in and be "right with our faith". Then, we learn that child molesters wearing collars are being hidden from justice in the same Archdiocese and THEY are telling ME that I can't have sex outside of marriage with a consenting adult unmarried woman without committing mortal sin! My blood pressure goes up when I think about this, I get so angry.:mad:

[defendandprotect]

61. or -- at least more average kinds of problems . . . i.e., having affairs, etc.

And let's hope less sexual abuse by priests ---!!

[TahitiNut]

11. Well, haven't celebate males done well?

:eyes:

[Breeze54]

12. The majority have...

The one's in all the news are not the majority.

[galledgoblin]

29. no, I'd say today's majority of celebate priests

haven't done a very good job, it's just that decades of covering up the acts of the perverts have set a new low in standards.

the good priests who enter today don't get to stay very long.

[Breeze54]

36. "An estimated 0.2% of Roman Catholic priests have been proven to be abusers."

Diocesan priests = 27,971 as of 2008

http://www.priestsunday.org/dialog_change.html

-------------------------------------------------------

Catholic sex abuse cases

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

The John Jay Report,<3> commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, found accusations
against 4,392 priests in the USA, equaling about 4% of all U.S. priests between 1950 and 2002.

Review of Marci Hamilton's book retrieved July 10, 2008

A Review of Marci Hamilton's- "Justice Denied: What America Must Do To Protect Its Children"
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/books/reviews/20080625_doyle.html

[galledgoblin]

40. yeah, that's what I was saying

it's only a small number of abusers, and only a slightly larger group that participated in the cover-up, but that set a low in the standards of preformance from priests.

people don't demand to see a community leader who can transform a group of people into a group of social activists driven and INSPIRED by the word of God, they've settled for just wanting to see a guy read from the Book and make a halfhearted sermon without diddling their kids.

[Breeze54]

41. accusations against 4,392 priests in the USA, equaling about 4% of all U.S. priests

It's a low number, percentage wise is what I'm saying.

I'm not condoning it but it is a low number.

[galledgoblin]

43. I know what you're saying, but it doesn't really matter how low the number gets

the point is, people have had their faith in the church shattered. they don't care about how poorly their priest may preform. they just go through the motions, never inspired and never really understanding the teachings (and thus numbly following or at least acquiescing to the bizarre ultra-right stances Rome takes), until someone shakes them from their apathy.

[Breeze54]

44. Wow... well, I don't know if they ALL understand the teachings or not...

I wouldn't know if "they just go through the motions, never inspired".

I know and have known many that did understand and are/were inspired.

[galledgoblin]

46. just my obervation of the followers

what inspiration they found, they generally found on their own. the church was hollow for many except at holidays... even then, followers only showed up because they felt obliged, and they weren't so much touched by the Holy Spirit and by the celebration as by their own seperate memories and thoughts.

of the 10 or so officially-Rome recognized ordained priests I've known, only one really ever whipped the community together... and he was kicked out in less than 3 years.

another is just an amazing guy who inspires by his presence (he served in WWII and went on to be a bodyguard at Nuremberg where he decided he heard the call) but I only met him after he'd retired and wasn't allowed to run the parish anymore.

several more were nice men, and they did some community outreach, especially to the sick, the dying and the bereaved (bless them), but never really pulled together the community or reached out to those who felt the church did not want them.

a couple were just assholes.

[defendandprotect]

62. Let's not presume that because "they didn't make the news" that all's well . . .

many of them just didn't get caught ---

many were protected by the church ---

The church is about male superiority --- and all the flaws of personality/ego that suggests!

[Mrs. Overall]

14. "The Catholic Ch. has always said women cannot be priests because Jesus didn't have female Apostles"

But what about Luke 8:1-3, where it mentions the women who also followed Jesus as disciples and provided the MONEY for the group:

1 And Jesus was going about from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God; and the twelve were with him,

2 And women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,

3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who were ministering to their support out of their personal funds.

[defendandprotect]

63. No . .. I think what they said was that God/Jesus was male . . .

and left it at that --- males were in the one-all-male god imagine ---

females were not ---

And, as you are pointing out, there were female apostles ---

[Kajsa]

121. Mary Magdalene was an apostle, IMHO.

She was not a " fallen women" and harlot.

That was added on by Pope Gregory I to discredit her.

She was way too important for the church to handle,
they had to discredit her.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F03E3DE1231F936A15753C1A9659C8B63

[Peregrine Took]

15. Its not part of our tradition which can be traced back 2000 years to Peter.

There aren't any Orthodox women rabbis, either.

[Mrs. Overall]

17. Sorry, but many "traditions" and official doctrines have been added (and subtracted)

during those 2000 years. The Church has never been a static institution; it has continuously changed.

As an example regarding the Sacraments, Confession wasn't added as a sacrament until the 12th century and many of the early Church Fathers were married with families. Clerical celibacy was also a later addition.

I just don't buy the "we've always done it this way for 2000 years" argument, and I say this as an ex-nun.

[GreenPartyVoter]

19. Not all traditions are good, though. It wasn't traditional for women to do a lot of things

they do now like vote, drive, work outside the home, hold positions of power.

I guess what it comes down to is the church has to decide for itself if "it's tradition" is a good enough argument against women priests.

[LostinVA]

68. And, in this case, the poster is flat out wrong

Women WERE ordained in the early Church.

[JerseygirlCT]

106. True enough

But don't let that get spread around - all those uppity women will become entirely unmanageable!

[galledgoblin]

31. actually, there were many priestesses back in the early days

I don't know if it was Peter who quashed the female priests or if it came later.

in times of crisis though, women have always been allowed to step up to serve. I'm not religious, but I would say that if God is directing our actions, then God is clearly telling us that the time has come to make it official.

[defendandprotect]

65. Your tradition is also based on Goddess worship . . .

that's why priests still wear dresses and were clean shaven ---

Patriarchal religion overturned the worship of great goddesses and gods ---

and in turn had to base much of their teaching on those traditions ---

You will still find references to those great goddesses in the Old Testament ---

in the New Testament ---

and even in the Koran ---

It was inescapable for them . . . though they reversed most of the teachings ---

turning everything upside down ---

For instance, Mary had the notable family line --- which was transferred to Joseph.

[LostinVA]

66. Actually, the early Church did allow female priests and priests could get married

Certain people in the Church decided they were Paulists, instead of Christian.

Brush up on your catechism and get back to me.

[defendandprotect]

67. ....and then, of course, POPE JOAN snuck in there . . . !!!

[JerseygirlCT]

105. Traditions change.

The RCC has even changed, albeit in a painfully slow way.

Wrongs are eventually redressed. This will be too - eventually.

[spoony]

16. No opinion. I'm not Catholic.

So long as people are free to choose their religion and their denomination, they can cast a real life vote with their feet.

[goddess40]

30. I'm not either but they should allow women to be priests

I'm tired of females growing up with these sexist organizations warping their brains. Of course they all don't end up warped, since my mother is a recovering Catholic I'm grateful she didn't succumb to the bullshit. I recognized early on in the indoctrination that they didn't value me as a child or as a female.

[defendandprotect]

69. Well, you understand of course that it does effect society . . .

and the way people think about things when patriarchal religions teach that females are

subordinate, inferior --- ???

I think if you aren't female, you'd perhaps think about this effect on your daughter . . .

or wife?

[spoony]

98. Not really, so long as they can choose not to be Catholic

And this isn't the 1400s. Rome does not--and frankly never did--have a monopoly on teaching ethics and gender roles. There are plenty of strong female role models and also plenty of men who don't look down on them. And most Catholics don't even agree with this so, again, this isn't a wider sociological problem in this age. It's a Catholic's problem, and I'm not one.

[defendandprotect]

115. Of course, patriarchy is still a problem . . . as intolerance for homosexuals continues

to be an issue in America. These times are not over.

I'd also say that when your tax dollars go to supporting the RCC in its many "faith based" programs

that it should be of national concern what their policies are.

When the Catholic Church can still fight reproductive freedom and birth control, in general,

I think it's an issue for all of us.

[spoony]

120. Ah, the kitchen sink emergeth

How a question about women priests became a general indictment against the church regarding gay rights, tax programs, and contraception is quite telling as far as your motives for this pseudo-principled stand for female clergy, but it doesn't contribute anything of substance to the actual topic.

[galledgoblin]

20. my older sister just entered the Seminary (n/t)

[undeterred]

21. The Catholic Church will NEED to start ordaining women

and married men, or they will run out of priests. It is a 'tarnished vocation' that fewer and fewer people are interested in.

I studied at a Presbyterian Seminary in Chicago, where I was allowed to cross register for classes at the Catholic Seminary. There were some very good teachers there so I did.

Among the people I met: A 22 year old man who wanted to be a priest but also wanted to marry and have a family. He was a wonderful person who grew up in a big happy family and wanted to have a family of his own, although he hadn't met his future wife yet. Because he was honest about his intention, the Seminary would not give him a scholarship, whereas most of the men intending to be celibate priests got a full scholarship and housing. This young man would be allowed to get a seminary education and perhaps become a Catholic social worker, but not a priest. He said, I'm not willing to sell my balls, so they don't want me. It was well known that about 40% of the student priests were practicing homosexuals.

A 34 year old woman who wanted to be ordained as a Catholic priest. She already had the seminary education and an advanced degree, and was working in the library. She was celibate but had no interest in becoming a nun. No interest in marrying. She just hoped that the Catholic Church would start ordaining women in her lifetime. This was 20 years ago...

Both of these people sincerely wanted to be priests, and the Catholic Church said no.

[JerseygirlCT]

107. They will ordain farm animals before they're ready to

admit their wrong and start ordaining women.

[terrya]

22. Yes. yes, yes. But it will be at least 100 years before it happens.

At least. This is one VERY conservative institution.

[galledgoblin]

32. I see a schism coming well before then.

the church will either adapt or the majority will split off from Rome.

[Marrah_G]

23. It's not my religion, not something I have an opinion on.

If the members of the church want the change, change will happen, or people will stop going.

[Brigid]

24. Oh, yes. Absolutely.

And I am stubborn enough to hope it happens one day. Interestingly, the church does not deny that women would be great priests or deacons job. Nor does it mean that reserving the priesthood to men only means that they are considered somehow superior. In fact, I wonder if they aren't afraid that we women should out shine them. :evilgrin: They give other reasons for saying that women cannot be ordained. Their reasons are too convoluted to go into here; google women priests for further details. Just suffice it to say that I don't buy their arguments. We already do just about everything a priest does that doesn't actually require ordination, so why not?

[MonkeyFunk]

26. It's not my church

so I guess I don't get a say in the matter.

[Breeze54]

28. No women do...

:(

[MonkeyFunk]

33. Well, I'm a man

but haven't been a Catholic for 30 years. They're free to run their church any way they like, and I'm free to ignore them.

[defendandprotect]

70. Yes, you do . . . because it effects all of society . . .

when we have patriarchal religions pushing male superiority and female subordination, female
inferiority it should be of concern to every female and every male who has a wife or daughter,
or who simply just cares . . .

[JI7]

75. but it's a volunteer organization that is based on beliefs

[defendandprotect]

87. You seem to miss the point that YOUR tax dollars are supporting them . .

and the other implications of what I said in my post . . .

which you see to have bypassed.

The church effects society -- WE, therefore, have a right to push back ---

[MonkeyFunk]

93. Well I think they're idiots

on this position, but I think they're idiots on a lot of positions. But as I said, it's not my church, so I can't tell them how to run it. All I can do is leave it, which I did 30 years ago.

[defendandprotect]

114. You can also push back against their political influence on government . . .

giving them our tax dollars isn't a good idea ---

letting them interfere with passage of the ERA wasn't a good idea ---

and the RCC and the Mormon Church did that with a campaign paid for with tax-free dollars.

The RCC lobbies government just as other corporations do ---

It should concern all of us whether we are still members or not ---

[dtotire]

34. At This Time, No

It should be a more gradual process. The Church should ordain women as Deacons, who can fill many roles of the Priests. Eventually, in another generation or two, they can be ordained as Priests.
What the Church should do now, is to lift the ban on celibacy. That way, that would eliminate the shortage of Priests. Also, many Protestant ministers might like to be Priests. The Church would be able to select the best.

[Breeze54]

37. 2,000 years isn't "gradual" enough for you?

:silly:

[noamnety]

56. quoting MLK, JR:

"Frankly, I have yet to engage in a direct action campaign that was "well timed" in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of segregation. For years now I have heard the word "Wait!" It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This "Wait" has almost always meant "Never." We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that "justice too long delayed is justice denied."

[JerseygirlCT]

109. Exactly. nt

[defendandprotect]

71. Isn't that what patriarchy continued to say to African-Americans . . . wait---????????

It's not time yet . . . ???

That same ole, same ole ---

[JerseygirlCT]

108. Why?

Why the wait? So as not to upset people who are perfectly happy with the bigoted status quo?

The reason to ordain women isn't because there aren't enough male priests. Women aren't a sorry second-rate solution.

The reason to ordain women is because women are genuinely called to the priesthood, and silly male-instituted rules don't allow them to become priests now. This is stubborn man ignoring God. And I mean "man" in the specific sense.

Waiting until everyone is ready to deal with their bigotry isn't the answer. Sometimes people have to be pushed to confront their failings before they're ready or willing to do so.

Should we have waited here in the US until everyone was cool with it for civil rights?

[Hekate]

35. Separation of church & state means they get to decide this for themselves--not public opinion polls

That's kind of the point, isn't it?

Should they ordain women? Absolutely. Should they allow male priests to marry? Sure. Have openly gay priests? Why not? There is historical precedent -- long-buried, but there -- for all these things in the Roman Catholic Church.

However -- this is not my church. It's not even my religion. They have to figure this out for themselves.

In OUR history, that of the United States of America, if you can't change conditions in your own church/synagogue/temple/grove, you have the option of leaving and founding one of your own. Sure, your original group may excommunicate you, but as long as you break no secular laws in the process, you are free to do so. Americans have done so in abundance.

This, btw, is where the issue of gay marriage comes in. The State should be in charge of plain marriages/unions by a Justice of the Peace, which to my mind means two consenting adults. Churches/ synagogues/ temples/ groves get to decide which marriages they deem acceptable as a holy sacrament. The State says "two consenting adults," the "Church" says which two. In quite a few other countries the two functions are widely separated. You aren't married in the eyes of the State until you are registered at City Hall or the equivalent. What you do about God is your business.

Which brings me back to the Roman Catholic Church. As long as they break no secular laws (such as harming children), their sacraments are their business.

Hekate

[Breeze54]

38. Who said a public opinion poll was deciding this?

:shrug:

[noamnety]

57. Is job discrimination against women a secular law?

If they are violating employment laws, perhaps we need to examine issues like why they are allowed to - and why, when they do it, they get special privileges like tax breaks.

[Hekate]

91. Depends on the job--and whether they take federal money connected with it.

Catholic Charities hires social workers and the like, and *long* before Bush I believe they had access to federal money for their projects. In that case they would have to comply with federal non-discrimination hiring policies. Until Bush and his faith-based initiatives muddied the waters -- now I don't know what would apply.

But if you are talking about jobs like "priest" and "nun", then no, they are not in violation of secular laws.

Hekate

[noamnety]

116. I view it as "an exemption" to secular laws

There is a law, we've exempted them from having to comply with it.

The reason for the exemption is that we as a society accept that discrimination is part of their belief system. And then we give them tax breaks for it.

I have issues with that. I believe most people would, if the discrimination was racial. Imagine the outcry if the Pope excommunicated a priest because he was black. We SHOULD have the same level of outcry over this, but since it's just discrimination against women, which we are used to, instead we shrug and say "not my problem, not my business."

[Hekate]

122. As a pagan, I do not want the State telling me what form my sacraments should take. The Constitution

... extends the same protections to Roman Catholics and pagans alike, whether Catholics and atheists like it or not. The beauty of the Constitution as envisaged by such framers as Thomas Jefferson (may his spirit return to us in such times as these) is that people are legally entitled to be as mistaken as they please in matters of the spirit. Unlike a theocracy, people are also legally entitled to leave their religion behind, and secular law cannot punish them for that.

The separation of church and state means what it says. Leave religious people alone, lwfern -- and work to get our Democratic presidential candidate elected, so that no more Supremes like Scalia get on the SCOTUS.

You are entirely free to express your negative opinion of how people conduct their religious lives and the religious institutions they are involved with. As long as the wall of separation remains unbreached, I prefer simply respecting our differences.

Hekate

[noamnety]

123. Many laws apply to church sacraments

In marriage, they have to abide by the current laws. The LDS church is legally obligated to respect laws regarding polygamy, and laws regarding minimum ages of brides and grooms apply to marriages, even when within a church, which is why that current scandal was a scandal, instead of the government giving a collective shrug and saying "y'all can do what you want; you're on your own."

Your other comment about how I should be spending my time is an ad hominem attack that is not relevant, hekate. I assume you and I have spent roughly equivalent amounts of time in this thread - which is to say, a very insignificant percentage of our lives.

[Hekate]

124. Not sure how what I said got interpreted as an ad hominem attack, but let's drop it...

... and figure this last comment for an apology for whatever I said.

Cheers.

Hekate

[defendandprotect]

73. The Church has been trying to overturn Separation of Church and State . . .

since "All are created equal" was conceptualized . . . and embraced by governments . . .
in revolution.

The Church still stands against it ---

The Church doesn't only try to influence its own members, it's tries to influence the
greater society. AND, as we can see now, the Vatican and Bush are intertwined.

The Vatican is working its will at the United Nations where it is recognized as a soverign
nation! A one square mile city of all males --- !!!


So, yes, we can also push back on all these issues --

They have the right to decide for themselves, but their teachings impact all of our lives.

Especially women and homosexuals ---

Especially nature -- i.e., "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" --

capitalistic license to exploit!

[Hekate]

92. It's up to us to keep pushing back--our founding fathers were sons ofthe Enlightenment,not theocrats

We have always had this tussle in the US, and right now we are going through a really bad patch. The reason for the religious sentiment that truly is a part of our national being is that at the beginning so many immigrants really did see America, the New World, as the place where they would found the New Jerusalem. Sometimes entire groups would arrive led by their pastors -- not just the Puritans, but later on others as well.

But the men who actually wrote the Constitution were secularly-minded, inclined to protect everyone equally -- and that piece of information is something the theocrats have worked to suppress for the past several decades.

So I completely agree with you that we need to keep pushing back.

Hekate

[Fire Walk With Me]

39. No.

They should be priests in a more progressive movement such as the Unitarian Church.

[Occam Bandage]

42. Whatever they want to do, I suppose. People can join or leave as they choose.

[defendandprotect]

74. However, church teachings impact all of society . . . intolerance for homosexuals,

for instance ---

teaching the inferiority, subservience of females, for instance ---

If you aren't homosexual or females -- you would still realize that this would

impeact the life of your wife or daughter . . . ???


Elsewhere, you'll find discussions of religious attempts to limit birth control

and Plan B/Emergency contraception for women --- it is religion which pressures

government to restrict reproductive freedom.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

47. Still in the Dark Ages.

And Pope Ratzy used to be head of the Office of the Inquisition.

That's just the way Christianity is:

penis = wisdom


===============

So when did the Catholic church decide that women have souls? When was that? :shrug:

[defendandprotect]

76. Evidently, Pope Ratzy is turning the church towards Evangelicalism . . . !!!

[OhioChick]

48. Yes n/t

[LeftishBrit]

49. Yes, since you asked - but as a non-Catholic, it's not really up to me.

[defendandprotect]

77. It is up to you . . .

Again, church teachings impact all of us --- for instance ---

teaching the inferiority, subservience of females, for instance ---

If you aren't homosexual or females -- you would still realize that this would

impeact the life of your wife or daughter . . . ???


Elsewhere, you'll find discussions of religious attempts to limit birth control

and Plan B/Emergency contraception for women --- it is religion which pressures

government to restrict reproductive freedom.

[bigwillq]

50. Yes

It's discrimination that they can't be.

[rug]

51. This is like asking if Hindus should allow reincarnation.

[Common Sense Party]

52. No, it's their church, they can believe what they want.

[defendandprotect]

79. The hierarchy of the church often believes in control --

members do work to change the church ---

However, for those not involved with the church it still has to be recognized that

they influence societies --

for instance ---

teaching the inferiority, subservience of females, for instance ---

If you aren't homosexual or females -- you would still realize that this would

impeact the life of your wife or daughter . . . ???


Elsewhere, you'll find discussions of religious attempts to limit birth control

and Plan B/Emergency contraception for women --- it is religion which pressures

government to restrict reproductive freedom.

[Common Sense Party]

90. All fine and dandy.

They're a private organization. They can believe what they want and practice what they want.

So can I.

[defendandprotect]

113. That's just the point . . . no you can't . . .

By the early 1960's we still didn't have anything but condoms available for bith control --
and they were hidden away and largely inaccessible.

Pressures on government and corporations/research continue to limit what we have.

Where is the male contraceptive that was to appear more than 10 years ago?

And here we are in a situation where a woman has to worry that a pharmacist might not fill
her prescription for emergency contraception - "Plan B" --


The Catholic Church and the Mormon Church fought the ERA with tax-free dollars --
and played a large part in defeating it.

If you are in any way involved with women -- family, loved one -- then you should be
concerned.

If you want birth control to remain available, you should be concerned.

If you care for the status of women around the globe, you should be concerned.

[rucky]

53. Only if men are allowed to be Nuns. n/t

[Breeze54]

54. Except nuns marry God when they become nuns, but priests don't marry God.

If they allowed men to marry God, then they'd be condoning 'same sex marriage'? :shrug:

I'm even confused by what I typed! :rofl:

[JerseygirlCT]

110. Not at all

because God is not male!

But that's another dimension of the problem, too, isn't it?

[galledgoblin]

94. I do wonder what will happen to the sisters and the brothers in the future...

but I doubt allowing men to become nuns and women to become monks would change much. I mean, sure, let the change happen, but no one will take advantage of it or demand that it happen.

[rucky]

96. Kinda like becoming a waiter at Hooters.

The courts ruled it can happen, but nobody really wants it to.

[JerseygirlCT]

111. I'm sure there would be those who continue to feel called to

those positions.

There's a difference in what they do - it's less a hierarchy - you know, become a nun then move up to priest, then it is about different callings and different work.

And too many women called to the priesthood have subverted that call into female religious orders or none at all because the boys won't allow them to follow their call.

[galledgoblin]

119. excellent points (n/t)

[mrs_p]

126. they can become

brothers and live a very similar life - not every male religious is a priest.

[mvd]

55. I'm a non-practicing Catholic

Really a Christian with my own views. Right now it doesn't affect me, but yes, I'd like them to admit women. Jesus's apostles were male because that's just how it was done in the times.

[Mind_your_head]

64. 'Some' suggest that the book of John

was written by Mary. When Jesus refers to the 'apostle He loved', some beleive that Jesus is refering to this certain 'Mary'

[defendandprotect]

80. Of course . . . Mary was the "Apostle to the Apostles" . . .

it is recognized that the female apostles recognized and understood things that
the males had a hard time with ---

[krispos42]

72. No

Their religious beliefs state that only a man can be ordained. Since they truly believe this, they should not ordain woman priests.


What they SHOULD do is change their beliefs to make gender equality their official stance. But given the documents they base their beliefs on, I have little hope.







:shrug: Religion is about survival of the fittest. If the RCC suffers substantial losses of money and worshippers due to this belief, they will either become a minor, fringe religion; collapse into a few scattered groups; form a new faction seperate from the Roman Catholic Church, or discover some new line of reasoning or interpretation of the Bible to have gender equality.

[defendandprotect]

82. Right . . . the Catholic Church still REFUSES to acknowledge the full personhood of females . . .

as it acknowledges the full personhood of males --- !!!


WTF -- !!!!

[krispos42]

84. I expect them to be consistant with their beliefs

And let either a grassroots movement alter those beliefs, a progressive pontiff alter Church doctrine, or declining numbers and decreasing relevency force the upper ranks to change direction.

The RCC could stick to their views while the world moves on. And they would most likely become a small, close-knit religion like Judaism. Quietly devout and clinging to the ancient ways.

[defendandprotect]

86. Honesty isn't exactly their policy . . .

The church was reformed by Pope John XXIII in Vatican II ---

and immediately the right-wing radicals in the church began to try to overturn it.

They've largely been successful.

Vatican II is hugely important --- it gave the church a humane, compassionate face --

it acknowledged members' rights to their own personal conscience --- EVEN in regard

to the issue of birth control.

And, basically, it kicked Papal "infallibility" in the ass --


The Church hierarchy doesn't deal honestly with members --- the sexual abuse and payoffs

are one indication of that. The cover-up in the church continues on.

Many believe that at least two recent Popes were knocked off because they were about

to give members the right to birth control.

The Popes had organized church members --- notable lay people -- to come together to

study the situation with birth control and the church. The advice of these groups were

to approve birth control. Members didn't hear much about that, however.



The last Pope . . . the one before this . . . looks like a CIA Pope, IMO.

The Church has intelligence abilities around the globe which challenge what the CIA has.

I'm sure they've always been interested.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

89. And Judaism has four divisions, unlike the RCC.

Orthodox, conservative, reform and reconstructionist, so take your pick on the spectrum.

The Episcopalians/Anglicans had huge fights in the 1970s over ordaining women. I remember them. I remember when they had renegade unofficially ordained female priests, and the usual fight. Now they accept them.

Now they are splitting apart over gays.

Seems that new groups of people keep popping up demanding their rights. In legal circles it would be called a "protected class". And religions just can't deal with them.

They can keep their churches and their beliefs, although I appreciate some of their architecture.

[defendandprotect]

112. Well, "their beliefs" . . . are imposed upon our society . . .

Rather than looking at it as if "new groups are demanding their rights," why not look

it from the higher perspective, i.e., that organized patriarchal religions underpin

patriarchy which claims its superiority over everyone else . . . ???


Again -- the fight for birth control for everyone was largely a fight against these

religious/political influences on our government/society.


Many of the issues we continue to try to deal with ---

oppression of women and reproductive freedom -- intolerance for homosexuals --

are all issues which are taught by organized patriarchal religion.


"Their beliefs" effect all of us because of their attempts to influence government/society.

Their beliefs do harm to women... our aunts, sisters, daughters, mothers, wives --

Their beliefs do harm to families -- intolerance for gays being just one example of

instilling a hatred in a family for one's own child!

[spoony]

99. wtf indeed, what on earth are you on about?

[Book Lover]

81. No

The Roman Catholic Church does not deserve women priests. Cast not your pearls before swine.

[defendandprotect]

83. And they also have this Vatican nation -- one acre -- all males !!!

... what would they to do if women ascended to hierarchy ---

give up and let the fun begin . . . ??? !!!

[Leeny]

85. exactly!

What woman in her right mind would want to be involved in a religion that devalues and demoralizes them?

But I have doanother question... If the Catholic church is opposed to abortion, then shouldn't they logically be opposed to males jacking off as well? I mean how many millions of potential unborns have been thoughtlessly spilled?

Ha!
:P

[Canuckistanian]

88. I couldn't care less

If the Catholic church wants to wallow in superstition and hollow, meaningless tradition, then more power to them.

I eagerly encourage the Christian community to progress beyond this caste of authoritarian eunuchs.

[pampango]

95. Definitely "Yes" but to be fair what about women as rabbis and imams? n/t

[marshall]

102. There are currently female rabbis, but no female imams

It'll be a cold day in Dante's Inferno before that happens.

[salguine]

100. Maybe a better question would be, "Should the Catholic Church make the leap

out of the Tenth Century?

After facilitating decades of systematic, institutionalized child rape, I really think officials of the Catholic Church have really forfeited any right to ever be upset or indignant about absolutely anything, ever, ever ever again. Fuck them.

[aikoaiko]

101. I see no reason beyond tradition to not allow female priests-- but they can do what want...

...as a private group.

[JerseygirlCT]

103. This is one of the major reasons I am no longer R. Catholic

but Episcopalian.

There is NO reason not to ordain women, except that these bigoted men insist on it being a boy's club.

The only reason we're taught Jesus didn't have female apostles is because the boys decided what we'd be taught centuries and centuries ago. It's a nice racket.

[tomreedtoon]

118. I'm a "collapsed Catholic."

Not a "lapsed" Catholic, one whose abandonment of the Church is just a temporary brain-fart. I mean everything I used to believe as a kid and even a teen has collapsed.

It largely came when my sister discovered that her Catholic marriage was bad, because her husband became a violent psychopath. The priests told her she had to pay a fortune, and hire Papal representatives in Rome, to try to get an "annulment" of the marriage, and that even this was uncertain to happen. She was supposed to buck up, take the beatings and abuse, and remain in the Church.

So I don't actually care. I am amused at the prospect of the Catholic Church declining to the size of the "cults" they mocked, from its former status as the dominant Christian sect in the United States. And the realization that the priests I used to take as moral exemplars are repressed homosexuals and pedophiles, and often having sexual affairs on the side with nuns and their housekeepers, is just icing on the cake.

The Church could have women priests who not only promote sex among teens, but open marriages and bisexuality as options for parishioners, and I still wouldn't care.

Okay, now I expect to get some posts from some Jesuit priests - the intellectual hired killers of the Church - to prove everything I said in the above paragraphs is wrong.

[mrs_p]

128. um, what jesuits

have you been hanging around? most i know would be sympathetic to your sister and are the pushing for change in the church.

[tomreedtoon]

133. I don't hang around any Jesuits anymore.

And there's no need. She divorced her abusive husband and has been married outside the Catholic church - happily, may I add - for a few decades. But the abuse of the Catholic Church goes on. I just reread Kavanaugh's book A Modern Priest Looks at His Outdated Church and it still rings true.

[mrs_p]

135. i am truly glad

that your sister is happy. my mother was beaten by her drunken catholic husband too (my disgusting repug father). i know there are bad priests but i also know many good priests. several jesuits basically helped raise me after my deadbeat father was gone from the picture and they instilled in me (with my mum and my community) a deep sense of social justice. i think this is why i haven't been able to truly divorce myself from the church (yet). my anger comes and goes... best wishes to you!

:hi:

[Ilsa]

127. As far as I'm concerned, any church with stupid rules can

rule themselves out of existence.

[mrs_p]

129. so, i'm still considered new here

i'm not going to apologize for my religion or for its beliefs - heck, most catholics don't agree with the vatican on every issue - but, i'm wondering if it is generally considered ok to bash ALL religions (judaism, islam, wicca, pagan, hinduism, christianity, buddhism, etc.) and their practices, or is catholicism a special case??

[noamnety]

131. It is generally acceptable to offer criticism where due

"xxx religion is stupid, its followers are insane" <-- not acceptable
"xxx religion is doing such and such which is wrong/evil/bigoted/corrupt because ... " <-- criticism of policies, good to go.

So, for example, I have harsh words about the pope's policies in this thread. At other times, I have alerted on posts which were bigoted against Christians (don't remember if those were ever about Catholics specifically, it wouldn't have made a difference to me at the time I was alerting).

[ProdigalJunkMail]

134. sorry...lwfern...your first option

listed as not acceptable happens in just about every thread bashing religion. i have seen it here dozens of times and no one in the mod pool seems to be bothered enough by it to delete the post...

sP

[noamnety]

136. Have you alerted on the posts when you see them?

I have, and most of the time (granted, they don't always draw the line where I do), the posts have been deleted.

Where they stand, I tend to voice my objections to the post. I hope you do the same.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

137. i do...and it is sad

that the bigotry against religion in many forms is allowed to stand here the way it does. when i have people tell me that they think liberals hate religion...well, i have a hard time arguing with them. i wouldn't have believed it in the past...would have chalked it up to a select few...but given it's prevalence on this board...well...

sP

[noamnety]

138. If you see something along the lines of that

feel free to message me as well and ask me to alert.

I wasn't raised with religion, but a lot of the people I cherish are religious. My standard is usually if the post can be interpreted as offensive to them personally as a member of that religion (or a substitute one), I alert. If the post is a slam of the religion's policies (as opposed to members), I tend to let it go.

That's the same standard I try to use for xenophobic posts as well. If a person is slamming a foreign government's policies, that's fair game. If they are slamming a foreign population, however, that's generally bigotry against people from what I've seen, as opposed to criticism of policies.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

139. i haven given up on that front

i have been participating on this board for several years now...directed my great-grandfather here and came back after his passing and have stayed since. i have learned a lot. changed a lot of my views. been very impressed with some of the people here...downright frightened by others. but some things have not changed and the slap-down of people with religious beliefs is just plain widely accepted here...be they fringe religious activities like Purity Balls or just attacks on the largest christian sect on earth.

the level of disdain and just plain judgment on the part of members of this board is depressing...i guess it is a societal thing.

sP

[old mark]

132. The Roman Catholic Church should fold,

have a big yard sale, and give everyonw on earth a few bucks back.
Biggest hypocrites going.

(Former Catholic School student.)

mark