Can we PLEASE stop comparing the *Bu$h admin to the Nazis?

[guitar man]

I mean, I dislike Nazis as much as anybody, but do we really have to insult the skinhead bastards that badly? :P

[liberal N proud]

1. Worse than the Nazis

[opihimoimoi]

2. WAY WAY WORSE.......

[Cid_B]

9. Maybe there should be a sarcasm tag with that...

n/t

[Bill McBlueState]

36. I suppose the New Yorker should have come with a sarcasm tag, too. n/t

[no_hypocrisy]

3. Closer to Stalin, his purges, and the gulags.

[indepat]

5. Incorporating much of the worst of both with a Machiavellian twist for good measure?

:D

[davekriss]

4. Wolin's Inverted Totalitarianism

Different than the Nazi's, although the invasion of Iraq had the same moral equivalency as the invasion of Poland. And I surmise if you added up all the people the U.S. has killed directly or by proxy since WWII in the name of "freedom" (actually in service of imperialism), the death count would put it in the league with Nazi Germany.

But even if my counts are off, as Jean Paul Sartre said, "Fascism is not defined by the number of its victims, but by the way it kills them." Our government manufactured consent for war (to the degree there was consent, which is highly debatable) by promulgating lies. It was, like Germany's invasion of Poland, an aggressive war based on lies about needing to protect the homeland. After all, it was so clear that Saddam Hussein was about to give his nuclear warheads and ICBM's to Osama Bin Laden so that Al Qaeda could attack us, just after Saddam finished flying his anthrax-spraying, balsa wood toy airplanes over Kansas. It is clear the highest crimes of Nuremberg, which we helped to define, were repeated by us. But why? To gain control for elite benefit of the majority of the earth's light crude? We went to war to service the needs of the major shareholders of oil and the military-industrial-security complex. Look at how well those sectors have done (in the stock market) compared to all others. Exxon profits exceed the GDP of over 125 nations. It's government in service of the corporate few. Fascism.

(What do you expect when our nation tolerates the theft of the Presidency in both 2000 and 2004, especially when the thieves are ex-oil industry executives. Bush, Cheney. Condalezza Rice had an Exxon supertanker named after her. How can anyone be surprise, now, by $4.00+ gasoline? It was just the regime taking care of its base.)

[Gold Metal Flake]

8. The Tanker

"Condoleezza Rice," the largest oil tanker in Chevron's fleet, was renamed the Altair Voyager in May of 2001 to "eliminate the unnecessary attention caused by the vessel's original name," said Chevron spokesman Fred Gorell.

http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/Condoleezza-Rice-Tanker5may01.htm

[Gold Metal Flake]

27. Damn. Here is the pix...

[cliffordu]

11. I just copied and pasted your rant into a folder on my computer for future

plagarizing.

Thanks, Dave. Great work!!

[hootinholler]

6. Absolutely the best argument I've heard for that position!

:evilgrin:

-Hoot

[guitar man]

7. :D

:hi:

[mmonk]

10. "Shock and awe", "Homeland Security", the "Patriot Act",

prewar forgeries, secret prison systems outside the rule of law, closing borders, ......no.

[cliffordu]

14. Should have just called it Fatherland Security and got it over with.

How DO you say Homeland Security in Cherman, anyway??

[DangerDave921]

12. Idiot

Seriously, is the Holocaust really such a joke to you? Is the systematic murder of millions of Jews really so inconsequential that you think what GWB has done is worse? I would encourage you to develop some sense of historical proportion, and have a less callous attitude toward those millions who were slaughtered, and their families.

[mmonk]

13. A comparison is legitimate. You're comparing outcomes.

Before crematoriums, there are similarities and patterns.

[lumberjack_jeff]

16. The Nazis were no joke. Neither are the Bushies.

This is what bugs me the most about MSM. They have allowed the GBW administration to transition seamlessly from heroes to national jokes. They've never been treated as the dangerous criminals they are.

[DangerDave921]

17. national joke

Maybe that's the rub. I see Bush as a clown, a guy who is in over his head. I don't see him as evil, as so many do on here.

Hitler was evil. Pol Pot was evil. Stalin was evil. To compare what Bush has done in the last seven years to what these guys did is just plain silly. And wrong. And to say Bush is worse mocks the very notion of what true evil is.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. Bush is evil. He is a classic sociopath. Ted Bundy had a certain "charm" about him too......

[mmonk]

34. Not worse. However if you want to argue the bush's aren't much

of a threat in their methods and therefore one should not compare them with the Nazis in anyway because of the holocaust, maybe you should argue your case with Naomi Wolf. It would make for an interesting debate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. It's only "wrong" as a matter of degree.

..and the fact that the winners write the history.

He's been very systematic about seizing power for his own profit, and strong-arming congress into facilitating his pathologies (such as his glee to kill Iraqis) by removing our civil liberties.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

15. And millions of Iraqis haven't been affected? Over 1 million dead and how many

maimed? Displaced? Poisoned from uranium and god knows what else. It took Hitler a few years to get started, so if Bush did have the chance to go on, how much more havoc would he bring?

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[underseasurveyor]

21. "you look like a moron"... Nice

It's like saying Jeffery Dahmer was worse than Ted Bundy because Dahmer was a cannibal.
Both were serial killers and just because one took things a step farther doesn't mean that Bundy was any less evil because he didn't eat his victims.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

23. Eliminating a religion? Do Iraqis and Islam equate? Religious wrong leaders in the military have

called Iraq a Crusade.

I am a Jew and the Holocaust was horrific but I will not allow that to close my eyes to what's happening now. We live in a Fascist country and you will see more and more Fascist policies being incorporated even without Bush. In reality, he isn't as bad as Hitler because he's the Tool. The framework is in place. We have Real ID coming to a license bureau near you with RFID chips. We have people being arrested with the use of the Patriot Act, and these people have nothing to do with terrorism. Cameras with microphones are going up on city streets. With DARPA, all of your personal information is being collected into your very own file.Wait until you see the police at the Denver Convention and how they are going to be equipped.
We have our own gulags as the other poster said, and we torture. If not in our own detention centers now, there is rendition.
Our elections are hacked and MSM is owned by the Corporatists will not allow the Real News to get aired. Endless dribbling about the latest blonde takes high priority. Did one single teevee "news" coverage, mention Dennis and the article of Impeachment?

There was a thread a few days ago that asked DUers if they thought the US was an Empire. No, we're not but we are the instrument for the World Corporate Empire.

BTW...you can take your moron comment and shove it where the moon doesn't shine.

Wake up.

[underseasurveyor]

26. Yay

:applause:

Bravo on you OmmmSweetOmmm:toast:

[DangerDave921]

29. sorry

The moron comment was unnecessary. But I don't equate Bush with Hitler no matter how many times people say it on here. I didn't say you have to close your eyes to what is going on today. Open your eyes wide. But that doesn't mean Bush is like the nazis. Sorry.

I don't see any concentration camps, or enforced ghettos, or patches on sleeves, or restrictions on movement within our own country, or government-owned media.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

31. The Real ID will be your patch. There are concentration camps built and being built.

We don't have government controlled media? How about the "journalists" that were being paid by the government? Also, being an instrument of the Corporatists, the MSM polices itself and controls what is aired over the horizontal and vertical.

Restriction of movement? What about no-fly lists and when the Real ID kicks in, who knows?

These are different times and different methods being used, but the situation is dire and once again, ad nauseum, you have to open those eyes of yours.

BTW... Apology accepted.

[underseasurveyor]

33. Do you really believe it will be THAT obvious?

And that they'll use the EXACT same playbook and scenery that hitler did? Come on, these people do learn from past mistakes and that's the scary part.. they just get better at it and sneakier.

The comparisons are not that far off the mark. Just because you don't "see it" doesn't mean it doesn't exist or hasn't started 'to be' on some level.

Or perhaps you prefer flashing neon signs?
-------->CONCENTRATION CAMPS HERE<----------- Exit Next Right
-------->((Arm-Bands)) Get Your Arm-Bands HERE<-----------
:eyes:

[DangerDave921]

35. So if I understand your reasoning

the ABSENCE of the things I itemized is proof that Bush is like the Nazis. OK, I get it now. :)

[underseasurveyor]

37. NO.. Obviously you still DON'T get it

Do you really expect to see camps and patches/tattoos, and walking skeletons behind barbed-wire and suffering, and the like? If that's what you're waiting to see it will be WAY too late.

What prevents you from acknowledging other facts like no fly lists, the media may not be 'owned by the government' but it is without a doubt controlled by the government with intimidation and strong-arming and favoritism, DARPA (do you even know what that is?), and indefinitely detaining people that are not terrorists without legal counsel, torture, illegal wiretapping, unreasonable search and seizures, etc. etc. etc. (my god the list goes on)?
Control of the masses through fear and intimidation. Um sounds a lot like a nazi playbook to me. They just have more sophisticated means these days at their disposal.

By your own denial there will be no one left by the time they come for you.

[DangerDave921]

38. No, I don't get it

Perhaps we just have differing viewpoints. Is that possible? Or must you conclude I am in denial? Yes, I would like to see more evidence of a dictatorship before I conclude that there is, in fact, a dictatorship.

You certainly cite to some troubling conduct. No doubt about it. But it pales in comparison to what was done to the Jews. I am against torture and illegal wiretapping and indefinte detainment, but I don't believe Bush has even come close to what the Nazis did. There is a matter of degree.

I know DARPA is a type of defense organization that develops new military technology. That means our government is like the Nazis?

Do you really think Bush is coming for you? I don't share that concern.

[underseasurveyor]

40. Oh yea sure.. One day the Jews woke up and it was a lovely day.

But OH NO... the very next day they woke up tattooed, starving and slaughtered en mass in concentration camps.

Yep that must be how it works. Oh yea that hitler he was a sly one and a quick mover alright.

The evidence is right there in front of your face.. THINK about it.

[DangerDave921]

41. 94%

That's how much of Bush's presidency is complete. 7 1/2 years down, 6 months to go. If in 7 1/2 years Bush has only gotten this far in terms of his grand design of genocide, then I'm not too worried about the next six months.

Call me naive or blind or whatever you want. If I'm on that end of the spectrum, then you're on the paranoid end of the spectrum. We balance each other out, with the truth probably closer to the middle.

Enjoy your day!

[underseasurveyor]

42. Paranoid?.... Hardly

But I can not understand how anyone can not see those things that are so plain to see?

Am I worried that bush is coming for me? Hell no. Is the potential there for the ability of this government (or the next or the next OR the next) to do exactly that if they so choose? You bet it is.

THAT'S what I'm talking about.

[conscious evolution]

43. None are so blind

as those who refuse to see.
That moran goes on my buddy list.
Anyone who could be so blind to what is happening in our country is either an effing moran or a freeper troll.

[underseasurveyor]

45. /sigh... yea

I don't think he's a freeper troll, I think it's just so overwhelmingly horrifying for some that it's too much for them to grasp. Unfortunately for them (and us) it is exactly that fear and disconnect that the fascists count on time and time again that makes it easier for them to achieve their means, unchallenged.

[conscious evolution]

52. Granted,it is difficult

for some to come terms with the fact that our nation has become as hated and despised as Nazi Germany.

[DangerDave921]

50. Whoa there cowboy

Don't be so quick to judge. Who says anything about being blind to what is going on in the country? I just said Bush is not as bad as Hitler and that he is not like the Nazis when you compare the two regimes. Period. I didn't say you have to turn a blind eye toward anything. There is a TON of stuff to hammer Bush on. Being a Nazi with some grand plan to dominate the world and commit genocide ain't one of them, IMHO.

I'm not a moron. And while Freeper Troll has a certain Middle-earth sound to it, it would be quite sad if I was a RW'er with nothing better to do than post on here. To what end?

Alwasy keep a watchful eye on your government. I can get behind that. But I think you're veering into paranoia.

[conscious evolution]

56. 'Being a Nazi with some grand plan

to dominate the world and commit genocide ain't one of them, IMHO.'

Ever heard the term PNAC before?

[conscious evolution]

58. Here is a hint

Think Mien Khampf.

[treestar]

44. You're missing the point, aren't you?

We're trying to identify it before it gets that bad.

That 26% that still supports * is a lot like the Germans of 1930. We can't let them use the discontent and fear the same way. Why shouldn't we be able to see it coming and fight it?

[DangerDave921]

48. OK

If you're identifying it BEFORE it gets that bad, that just proves my point that Bush is not as bad as the Nazis. Because even you concede it hasn't happened yet.

SNAP!

[lonestarnot]

28. Oh please get a fucking clue.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

55. It's satire.

Remember satire?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3613379&mesg_id=3615160

[KG]

18. they're more akin to the italian fascists. and even more incompetent.

[librechik]

19. There's no comparison. They literally are the Nazis.

In any true historical sense. These are the folks that brought the Nazi elite to the US through Operation Paperclip, and those elite became the designers of the current incarnation of the Republican Party. Theres' even hereditary descent from Nazi Collaborator Prescott Bush, down through the generations to W.

All the details of their belief system are identical to the Nazi Movement of the Thirties.

My husband the anthropologist traces BushCo back to the original Norman Invaders. (Hitler's Teutonic role models, who conquered and enslaved the world.) Just like now.

[NewJeffCT]

22. When the 2008 elections are canceled and we carpet-bomb Iran

and start rounding up *all* the Muslims in this country and sending them to gulags, then we can start comparing them to the Nazis.

Yes, there are some areas where the things they have done are comparable to the early days of the Nazis, but they haven't gone nearly as far yet.

[Indenturedebtor]

24. What NewJeffCt said. The comparisons are there

The methods for taking over our country are pretty much the same, but they're not quite there yet.

They're not trying to commit genocide. They're after money and resources, and the power they need to hoover all of that money and oil up. They're not after the systematic murder of an entire race.

[DangerDave921]

30. Thanks

for some needed reason and perspective.

[guitar man]

32. Thanks for all the replies. Now here's why I posted this

A friend and I have been having an ongoing discussion about the effects of "satire" in the wake of the New Yorker cover dustup. He didn't see why everyone didn't immediately "get it" and didn't see how it could cause any harm. So, I thought about it for a bit and came up with a little bit of "satire" of my own to post here and see what kind of responses people would have to it.

It certainly has been interesting and informative so far, but I'm afraid an all out flamewar might erupt so I am revealing my intent now. It certainly has given a young man I know some food for thought.

Thanks everybody :hi:

[Karenina]

47. Link, please!

:hi:

[guitar man]

49. haha

:rofl:

:hi:

[cobalt1999]

51. I saw through that one though.

However, I was enjoying the responses and am disappointed you stopped it so soon!

[guitar man]

53. I probably should have let it go on longer

but I was afraid some people were going to tear each other apart :scared:

[fascisthunter]

39. no

:P

[Karenina]

54. When all is said and done

*co will make the nazis look like "Lord of the Flies."

[mmonk]

57. It's fun to joke about it.

But it's frightening also, especially with the recent court ruling that we can be held without charge and without a right to a speedy trial at the say so of the executive branch. By most definitions, that is dictatorship.

[asteroid2003QQ47]

59. YES! Stop putting the cart ahead of the horse!

American Roots of Nazi Eugenics By Edwin Black

...the concept of a white, blond-haired, blue-eyed
master Nordic race didn't originate with Hitler. The
idea was created in the United States, and cultivated
in California, decades before Hitler came to power.
<>
The Harriman railroad fortune paid local charities,
such as the New York Bureau of Industries and
Immigration, to seek out Jewish, Italian and other
immigrants in New York and other crowded cities and
subject them to deportation, trumped up confinement or
forced sterilization.

The Rockefeller Foundation helped found the German
eugenics program and even funded the program that
Josef Mengele worked in before he went to Auschwitz.
<>
The superior species the eugenics movement sought was
populated not merely by tall, strong, talented people.
Eugenicists craved blond, blue-eyed Nordic types. This
group alone, they believed, was fit to inherit the
earth. In the process, the movement intended to
subtract emancipated Negroes, immigrant Asian
laborers, Indians, Hispanics, East Europeans, Jews,
dark-haired hill folk, poor people, the infirm and
really anyone classified outside the gentrified
genetic lines drawn up by American raceologists.

http://hnn.us/articles/1796.html