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Congress Daily: Sounds like Dems are really going to go for the off-shore drilling.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:04 PM
Original message
Congress Daily: Sounds like Dems are really going to go for the off-shore drilling.
Several have already signaled their capitulation in the matter. The Republican media machine very quickly did a magnificent job of convincing the public how much drilling off shore would lower the price of gas.

Doesn't matter if it is true. It is the whole fear factor again. Just a couple of years ago most Floridians were dead set against anymore offshore drilling, they understood what little difference it would make. Now the polls are suddenly running high in support of it. Fear and propaganda still work very well.

It's moving ahead very fast. Just last week we heard Reid and Durbin express their willingness to put all options on the table.

Democrats signal they could be open to compromise on offshore drilling

Democratic leaders showed varying degrees of interest Wednesday in opening up new areas for oil production, as public opinion veers in favor of drilling. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters that expanded offshore drilling, which the Republicans have long supported, is not off the table. He said he opposes giving the states the right to choose whether to drill off their coasts, but also said Democrats are “taking a look at that.”

“I’m not knee-jerk-opposed to anything,” Reid said. “We’re willing to work; we haven’t shut our minds to anything.”

..."In the House, Democratic leaders have shown no interest in opening up coastal waters or the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) in Alaska. That was reiterated at a meeting of leaders and committee chairmen Wednesday afternoon, and “there was no dissension,” an aide said.

..."Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) said Wednesday that he wants to “limit offshore drilling if there is any environmental impact.” He added that there are more than 30 million acres leased by oil companies that they should use to explore. “They ought to lose their leases if they aren’t going to use it,” Durbin said.


However, he also stated, “Beyond that, if there is a suggestion of some new area to go into, I’ll look at it.”


A new report from Congress Daily shows that many House Democrats are considering forming a new coalition with Republicans in the House to look at drilling options.

House Centrists Look To Start Own Gang

Yes, that is in addition to the Blue Dog Coalition and the House New Dems who are the reason such bills as the bankruptcy bill and the FISA bill were passed. So now we will have another coalition. Looks like it is being formed to work more closely with the Republicans.

A group of House lawmakers are looking to replicate an effort among Senate centrists by bypassing their party leaders and putting together a compromise plan to address gas prices.

Reps. Neil Abercrombie, D-Hawaii, and John Peterson, R-Pa., are gathering a group of rank-and-file lawmakers — preferably split evenly between the two parties — for a meeting Monday in the hopes of quickly piecing together a legislative package. They plan to formally announce the group’s formation Tuesday.

“There is an effort that’s going on among members to try to … put together something that makes sense and is balanced,” Natural Resources Energy Subcommittee Chairman Jim Costa, D-Calif., said. Costa was one of 19 Democrats, predominately from oil and gas producing districts, who voted against a “use-it-or-lose it” plan sponsored by Democratic leaders shortly before the Independence Day recess.

House Democratic leaders as early as next week intend to bring that plan up again as part of a larger package emphasizing more production in areas where it is allowed to counter repeated calls from GOP leaders to expand access to new areas.

Many Democrats from oil and gas producing areas — including those opposing “use-it-or-lose-it” — agree with Republicans on opening up areas for drilling.


There is no one telling the people that US oil companies are shipping record amounts overseas.

While the U.S. oil industry wants access to more federal lands to help reduce reliance on foreign suppliers, U.S.-based companies are shipping record amounts of gasoline and diesel fuel to other countries.

A record 1.6 million barrels a day in U.S. refined petroleum products were exported during the first four months of this year, up 33 percent from 1.2 million barrels a day over the same period in 2007. Shipments this February topped 1.8 million barrels a day for the first time during any month, according to final numbers from the Energy Department.


The surge in exports appears to contradict the pleas from the U.S. oil industry and the Bush administration for Congress to open more offshore waters and Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to drilling.


I have never seen anything like the way Floridians are practically begging Congress to drill offshore now. I have seen local interviews with people in bathing suits on beaches pointing out to sea and talking about how important it is to keep our country drilling.

The tactic has been to make it sound like our country has just been being selfish by not drilling everywhere we can. I can see it in the way the people being interviewed sound so unselfish and patriotic. Propaganda works well.

It works best when there is no opposition party presenting the other side. It is painful to see the lack of plain talk on this issue. It kills me to see polls that show so many in favor of it now.

It would not take much to change their minds. Most are just not informed. It angers me that we are not trying to counter the media and GOP propaganda, but instead going along.

Instead of standing up and fighting back, we are apparently going to go along again on things that matter.

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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. Playing like they have a pair of two's when they're holding 4 of a kind....
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 10:18 PM by BlooInBloo
Worthless pieces of shit.



EDIT: Subject typo.
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pegleg Donating Member (788 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
2. Historically, the oil companies have played Americans like a fine
Edited on Sat Jul-12-08 10:25 PM by pegleg
violin and they are doing it again.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Yes, with no opposing voices.
That is the danger we face now. There must be opposition for a country to remain strong.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. If this passes the Dem congress it will hurt the Dems.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
3. why don't they make the oil companies swap their leases...?
that is to say- if they want new leases in new areas, they have to give up equal amounts of currently unused leases in other areas. AND- any new leases issued should have a 'use-it-or-lose-it' clause- if the leases haven't been developed by a certain date, they go back up for auction. did i mention that all new leases would be allocated by auction to the highest bidder..? i assume that's how they handle the pillaging of national natural resources these days.
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briv1016 Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That brings up a good question.
Why haven't oil companies sold back the leases of "useless" land to try to get back at least a part of there money?
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
5. From the WSJ...Environmentalists Say Yes to Offshore Drilling
What a convincing title. Nothing left to say after that at all.
This is an example of what I mean by propaganda.

Environmentalists Say Yes to Offshore Drilling

On the morning of Jan. 28, 1969, a Union Oil drilling site six miles off the coast of Santa Barbara, Calif., sprang a leak. The ensuing spill stretched for miles, killed thousands of birds, and gave America the image of wildlife and shorelines covered in black crude. That spill is widely considered to have conceived the modern environmental movement. A year later, the first Earth Day was held, followed by passage of the Clean Air Act and Clean Water Act.

After the spill, Santa Barbara residents formed an environmental group called GOO! (Get Oil Out!), one of the first community groups to oppose offshore oil drilling. Thirty-nine years later, GOO! is still around. But this April the group did something astonishing. It publicly supported an oil company's proposal to drill off the coast of Santa Barbara.


Why did they do this? Because the media is telling us it has been proved that there is no harm done from offshore drilling. I call that rewriting history.

The public may be aware that offshore drilling accidents are infrequent and pose little threat to the environment; this awareness is probably part of the reason why growing numbers of Americans support drilling in formerly protected portions of our coastal waters. Last month, a Zogby poll found 74% of Americans support offshore drilling. That's up from 57% in May, according to a Gallup poll. Even a majority of Democrats support offshore drilling, according to a Rasmussen poll last month. High gas prices clearly play a role in driving up support for drilling. But the fact that the U.S. coastline has not played host to news footage of sea birds coated in crude since 1989 may play a role, too.

Big oil spills can do long-term ecological damage. But the long-term effects seem to be on the micro rather than the macro scale. In Alaska and Cape Cod, where long-ago oil spills coated the shoreline, the aftereffects are visible only if one goes digging for them. Small creatures such as crabs and shellfish still suffer negative ramifications. But the ecological decimation predicted by environmental groups has not materialized. Americans, including those at GOO!, are making the judgment that in the right circumstances, the benefits of offshore oil drilling can outweigh the risks of an occasional large spill. Unfortunately, the Democratic Congress remains beholden to environmental activists who oppose a sensible expansion of offshore drilling. If it is possible to find a compromise in Santa Barbara, it should be possible to find one on Capitol Hill as well.


Why bother to fight? Looks like the decisions are made.

I was glad to see that Obama spoke out against this, but the Democratic leadership is ready to go. His is only one voice right now.


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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-12-08 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Better one voice than no voices at all.
The oil industry propaganda wing is FUCKIN AWESOME.

I just wish our guys were half as good.


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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why isn't anyone telling people re the shipments out of the U.S.?
I guess we must call on the FW Blogger once again! :)
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Ok...who is the..
FW Blogger? :-)

You are right, there should be a separate post about that issue.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:42 AM
Response to Original message
9. "Profiles in Courage" n/t
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
10. re: selling overseas
By boat Saudi Arabia and Venezuela and Nigeria are closer to the eastern US than Alaska is.

By boat, Alaska is much closer to China than it is to Houston.

It really makes little difference where we get oil from, or who we sell oil to. It's a global market.

Oil drilled off of Florida will cost Americans $140/barrel, same as any other oil. (Unless we nationalized the oil industry and instituted subsidies when I wasn't looking.) So a lot of this political talk going around is just foolishness.

Energy independence is quite different from energy price. We could be energy independent in a decade if we felt like it. Gas would cost $9/gallon, but it would all be American gas. (There's all sorts of oil to be had here if production price is no object.)

Energy independence is an odd goal. Are we worried about Canada cutting us off? (That's 1/5 of our imports... 150% more than from Saudi Arabia) Energy Independence is no more meaningful than car independence, or computer independence. We would be seriously screwed if Taiwan and Japan instituted a computer chip embargo, but that's not going to happen. The US hasn't produced a TV set in ages, but we never hear about the need to be TV independent.

But unless any new US production is so vast it changes the GLOBAL supply picture it won't change prices any. And prices are what people are upset about.

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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 01:16 AM
Response to Original message
11. There's not one single issue these folks won't sell out. Not one.
In that respectm they're worse than Republicans- and make the entire party look coawrdly, craven and corrupt.
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NorthCarolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. The problem lies with too many DLC and Blue Dog DINO's
in the party. Don't expect anything less than capitulation as long as they continue to hold sway over the Democratic agenda.
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
40. It's SHITE being a Democrat
We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the Republicans. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent party to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, depakid, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!

(Brownie points to anyone who recognizes the source of that quote).
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Trainspotting???
:) How'd I do??
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nxylas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. Brownie point for you
Am I the only person who can't hear that cruise commercial that uses Iggy Pop's Lust For Life without wanting to launch into the "choose life" monologue?
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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
13. Fucking traitors.
Why in the hell should I vote for any of these assholes when they keep betraying the basic principles of the party, not to mention the laws of common sense. More offshore drilling is not going to help, yet they pander to those fucking idiots just so as not to lose an election. I hate Republicans but I am starting to hate Democrats nearly as much.

People are fucking stupid if they think offshore drilling is going to help them at the pump. You know what, idiot Americans, STOP DRIVING YOUR GAS-SUCKING SUV's!
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
39. "idiot Americans, STOP DRIVING YOUR GAS-SUCKING SUV's"
Can't argue with that...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
14. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:53 AM
Response to Original message
15. the dark side owns the media, therefore the 'voice' of america
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 08:56 AM by spanone
the bu$h* / cheney final gift to big oil

i suspect the democrats will vote for it. i find little difference between the parties every goddamn day
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marmar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
16. Fanny Lou Hamer said it best: "I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired."
The two-party system has outlived its usefulness.


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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
17. I have no faith in this congress at all
they will go toward doing the right thing a kicking and screaming the whole damn way. They've let themselves become compromised and the majority of both parties should resign, today, or better yet right damn now. They can not do our business any longer and trust me when I say, we have a lot of business that needs tending too. I have hope that we will survive these next six months and still have some semblence of a democracy left. Hopefully enough of one that we'll have something to build on rather than having to start from scratch. My personal belief is that when mom and pop, the sons and daughters of parents of the grand children wake up and see what is going on and what has gone on that it will be hell to pay for these crooks. I've seen America turn on people in blinding speed before when its shown the leopards actual spots. It'll happen again, its in the works now, people are waking up..
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 09:35 AM
Response to Original message
18. I'm absolutely disgusted.
I hope that the Democrats we vote in to replace some Republican incumbents this fall will be made of sterner stuff.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
19. Congressional Democrats prepare to sell out = Water is wet.
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
20. Nice to know that they're lining up behind McCain on off shore drilling.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/17/mccain.energy/?iref=hpmostpop

I guess Obama's big "change," bringing us "together," isn't really a change at all, is it?

Democrats are already lining up and following along like ducklings behind Republicans.

Including the Republican nominee.

In direct opposition to the Democratic nominee's own position.

Obama must be proud of them; they aren't purple, they're red violet.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
21. Interesting comment from Simon Rosenberg...seems not to realize
how many Democrats are saying they will be going along with the offshore drilling.

"Most analysts agree California's 55 electoral votes appear secure for the Democrats. "McCain was going to lose California anyway, but his gamble to back offshore drilling means he will lose California by 20 points, and it will cause him trouble in Florida," predicted Simon Rosenberg, president of the New Democrat Network, a group backing Obama"

http://www.dailydemocrat.com/news/ci_9869469

The polls in Florida, at least the ones they are presenting to us on the news here, are in support of more drilling.

Why would so many in congress go along with this if it works against Obama?
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CANDO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
22. Cowardly bastards!
Who's afraid of the big, bad Republicans? Why, the Democrats in congress, of course! How long will the American people tolerate their cowardice. They don't respect cowards. Stand for something, for god's sake!
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Kermitt Gribble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
23. I've about had it
with our Democratic leadership. I'm so glad Obama is on the right side of this. If anyone can sway the rest of our party, it should be our nominee. If he doesn't have success in swaying them we have a pretty good idea (along with those who voted for FISA) of who is not on our side.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
24. From The Tennessean: "Oil drilling won't solve our energy needs"
Let our Democrats speak out just that clearly, and we could change some minds.

Oil drilling won't solve our energy needs

President Carter recommended the promotion and funding of alternative energy sources in the 1970s. The outcry was: "Too long-term — we need an immediate solution." That is the very argument that is being used today, 30 years later. Think where we would be today had our government acted upon his recommendations. When are we going to learn? Sooner or later we will be forced to use brainpower to find alternatives for oil, gas and coal.

Why should we wait until we have turned all our mountaintops into flattened wastelands with dried-up streambeds and drought- and flood-prone valleys for an extra day of coal? Why should we wait until we have smothered every square inch of live-bottom and coral formations surrounding our continental shelf from offshore drilling? Or wait until we have even one more disastrous oil spill from a "spill-proof" dredging platform or tanker? Why should we wait until we've built roads, oil platforms, runways and pipelines in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge to spoil one of our planet's most pristine and untouched places?

You may think it doesn't matter, that our needs come first. What's a herd or two of caribou, some arctic foxes, and polar bears in Alaska? Why should we, in Tennessee, care about a ruined coastline that isn't in our own backyard, or worry about the suffering and death of marine life? Well, it's actually science at its very basic form. If you don't believe me, think about what happened off the coast of California many years ago and a valuable lesson learned. With shellfish in high demand, fishermen eagerly sought ways to increase their daily catch, thereby decimating the shellfish population. They blamed the sea otters for the decline, instead of themselves. They began hunting and trapping the otters, which left sea urchins to multiply unchecked. The sea urchins devoured the kelp forest, leaving an underwater desert behind. No more kelp, no more fish, no more shellfish. No more shoreline protection against hurricanes.

When we live by illogical thinking and arrogance, to exploit and destroy everything before us, it is ourselves we destroy in the end.




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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
25. This is major BS and the Dems should stay away from it ----
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Agreed. But not gonna happen, I fear.
I hear Obama is against it, maybe he can talk some sense into them as the nominee. Sure hope so.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. It would be a great opportunity to shatter the trance of GOP propaganda . . .
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
28. The USA = The dumbest country in the world...
easily fooled and tricked. It is all psychological.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
30. the dems don't want to appear soft on big oil
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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
31. Whether they do or don't, neither will have any bearing on the price
of oil. It's all theater.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
32. Too bad the article you present here has absolutely nothing about....
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 04:50 PM by George II
...."Dems are really going to go for the off-shore drilling"

All it says is that they will "look at everything". That most certainly is not "going to go for the off-shore drilling", in fact the article doesn't definitively say that they're going to go for anything.

Of course, that is reading it without a jaundiced eye.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. No, you have zeroed in on me. The article is there in its own words.
You just go ahead and keep on. You really need to alert if you think I am a disruptor.

I posted correctly, and you are on the attack.
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George II Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I read the article, top to bottom, objectively.
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 05:10 PM by George II
It doesn't even come close to saying what the subject of this thread says. If it does, please point out my error.

On the other hand, you say at the very beginning, in reference to Democrats, that "several have already signaled their capitulation in the matter", but I defy you to show us how you could say that (objectively) based on the article.

I'm not "on the attack" and have not "zeroed in on (you)", but when I see people subjectively attacking Democrats I'm going to point it out. My original post in this thread could be considered "zeroing in on you" but only in the context of you never having a single positive thing to say about Democrats, just negative. I could turn your comments above and say that you are "zeroing in" on Democrats and on the attack against Democrats.
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Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:02 PM
Response to Original message
34. Democrats should read the short article linked in my signature.
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 05:02 PM by Peake
And then impeach and prosecute immediately.

"What is driving the ANWR push is not facts but pure shock doctrine strategy--the oil crisis has created the conditions in which it is possible to sell a previously unsellable (but highly profitable) policy." http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080721/lookout
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Yes, thank you.
I have read that. It is scary how that works.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
35. Please note 19 Dems voted against the plan supported by Obama.
From the OP

"Costa was one of 19 Democrats, predominately from oil and gas producing districts, who voted against a “use-it-or-lose it” plan sponsored by Democratic leaders shortly before the Independence Day recess."

Someone just told me the article did not say what I said it said.

Guess what....19 voted against the party plan and the nominee's plan...that's a heck of a lot.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. These 19 concern me.
.
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nam78_two Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-13-08 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
38. This makes me sick-I am going contact my representatives
Edited on Sun Jul-13-08 05:18 PM by nam78_two
Well most of them are Republican so with those turds I am not even gonna try :eyes:.
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jtrockville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 01:23 AM
Response to Original message
42. A visit to the Valdez port should be required by anyone voting aye.
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spanone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
44. if the dems cave on this issue, it could be the last straw for me.
there have been so many fucking 'straws'
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 02:24 PM
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45. Obama went for it in some states. nt
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mdmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-14-08 02:26 PM
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46. The right thing is almost never the easy thing to do
The Dems should just give up and go along with the easy answers. It will be better for Obama...
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