women find way to outwit the religiously insane - re: abortion

[ensho]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7500237.stm


Women 'using web for abortions'


Some women in countries where abortion is restricted are using the internet to buy medication enabling them to abort a pregnancy at home, the BBC has learned.

Women in Northern Ireland and over 70 countries with restrictions have used one of the main websites, Women on Web.

-snip-

Almost 11% went on to need a surgical procedure - either because the drugs had not completed the abortion or because of excessive bleeding.

Almost 200 women answered questions about their experiences - 58% said they were just grateful to have been able to have had an abortion in this way, while 31% had felt stressed but found the experience acceptable.

-snip-

A US woman, who has a rare medical complication meaning pregnancy is life-threatening to her, described her experience when she used the website while in Thailand.

"Women on Web kept in contact with me via e-mail. The medication arrived through Customs, properly blister-packed, with complete paperwork and a doctor's signature.
-snip-
---------------------------

[loveable liberal]

1. I love the internets. n/t

[ColbertWatcher]

87. Ditto. n/t

[ristruck]

2. Insane?

So are you saying a person, who holds a conviction that an unborn baby should not be aborted is insane? Just wondering...

I am a committed progressive, I support Obama, I want out of Iraq, agree we need a National Health Care plan, believe that corporations need their power base curtailed, strongly oppose torture, believe global warming is a serious issue, support diplomacy over war, believe in equal pay for equal work, a strong supporter of the EEO laws and programs..etc etc...I can make a pretty long list of Democratic principles I agree with.

I also believe that abortions should be rare and that an unborn child is a human person. Do you think I am insane?

[defendandprotect]

3. Pretty much . . .

it's, IMO, an unbalanced view.

It's kind of archaically patriarchal ---

and often is based in religious teachings, which themselves show utter disrespect for females.

[ristruck]

8. Rhetoric/Imbalanced

That is too bad.

It is this kind of over the top rhetoric on both sides of this issue that strikes me as imbalanced. I can see both sides of the issue and know the pain and heartache that comes from this. I have experienced it. I would never impose my views on others. However; I can believe what I believe.

I love this site. I have appreciated the insights I get here. I now understand where you are coming from. The dogma on both sides amazes me. I think there are some areas of middle ground here. But hey, I guess that makes me insane....lol

[madfloridian]

14. Dogma? oopsy

Telling use of words.

[ristruck]

15. Got me...?!?!

Want to clue me in as to what you are suggesting?

[Guaranteed]

82. Like the idea that "The government has no right to regulate a woman's body."

Dogmatic as hell, Mad. And- in the WAY YOU PHRASED IT- absolutely incorrect.

[defendandprotect]

88. Everyone is free to believe -- that's what Separation of Church & State guarantees us --

right to freedom of conscience -- our highest privilege ---

HOWEVER, what we are talking about is people trying to impose their will on others.
Because that is happening. Vatican pressures and Bush/Cheney pressure on the United
Nations has caused grief for women all over the world re issues of birth control and
childbearing.

Let me also remind you that NATURE herself has given just about everything to do with
childbearing to females. NOT to males. That suggests a trust in the female which it
would be nice to see among those inflicted with patriarchal views -- often religous
views.

Additionally NATURE provided ways for females to control births --- to practice birth
control --- to interrupt conception and to end fertility whenever they wished. Pretty
much ALL of that information -- all of those plants -- were destroyed by males.
Still in the tropical areas, women use papaya to interrupt conception -- it contains
one of the same ingredients which RU486 is based upon.

So understanding what NATURE, herself, provided and ordained . . . what else do we have
at play here except male domination?

Do you consider that healthy?

Many of us have experienced both pregnancies and abortion and miscarriages ---

Keep in mind that most members of the Catholic Church practice ARTIFICIAL birth control.

And, as many female Catholics as any other females have had abortions.

[Maraya1969]

108. Several herbs are used to end pregnancy. That is why there is a

warning are all natural products that contain herbs.

So basically in my opinion God has given the female the means to terminate a pregnancy if she wants or needs to.

Never heard about Papaya though. Is it suppose to work by eating it or using it as a sort of insert?

[defendandprotect]

118. Papaya is supposedly still used by women in tropical areas --

you would eat it for seven days in a row ---

Lots of people really don't understand that all of our plants are pretty much our medicines!

And pretty much in control of the few now ---


Women were the original practitioners of "medicine" ---

the Witchhunts was the final violence against women which turned this knowledge upside down,

among other injustices.

[ensho]

133. true

nt

[Stevepol]

107. In a perfect world, there would be no abortions.

And nobody wants an abortion. It's something that should be a last resort. It's an aborting of the natural and human in favor of the clinical and impersonal and technological. And it is a cutting short of life, however you interpret it. If you don't define it as a legal physical life yet, you have to recognize that it's the end of some chain of relationships and spiritual connections. The fetus represents life, however you conceive of that life.

Yet there are times when it's the better choice in an imperfect world, and women should have the right to make that choice. If abortions were illegal, the results would be worse. I saw one estimate that in Brazil, where abortions are illegal, 50,000 women die yearly from botched and backroom abortions.

I believe it is possible to reach agreement about abortion somewhere between the extremes of both sides in the debate. The proponents of either view refuse to see that there are many possible compromises.

The religious act as if it's a perfect world, when it's not. The secular act as if people are perfectly free when they're not. We are confined in bodies that operate in obedience to laws, physical, natural laws. Nobody is free of these laws. We have to breathe, we must eat, we procreate according to laws we did not create and cannot change except to our own sorrow and confusion. Life is a compromise and we can learn from everything that happens and grow.

[Maraya1969]

112. The problem I have with your belief is the idea that every embryo is a fetus

That would make the pill, the IUD and especially in vitro-fertilization where many eggs are turned into embryos in a petri dish while the doctors and the patients know full well that most of these embryo will be discarded, (as opposed to used in stem cell research...another pissed off subject of mine but............)

So If life begins at conception you'd better throw away your IUDS and birth control pills and any other birth control that allows a sperm to inseminate an egg but not attach top the wall of the uterus.

Then we go to when does like start. My personal opinion, and it is MY PERSONAL OPINION is when the baby can survive out of the womb even with help like an incubator.

Up until then I believe the souls, (I do believe in souls) are just moved over into another baby that is going to be born. When you believe that all is one then moving part of the whole is no big deal.

[Stevepol]

122. Don't quite understand the first part of your post, but agree with other parts.

I don't claim to know when life begins or should be legally defined as beginning. I just think it is possible to find compromises. All life is a series of compromises.

I've taught some young women who claimed that they had started to have an abortion and decided to carry the child to term and were happy that they did, tho at the time they were strongly tempted not to, primarily because of the financial problems involved.

And I've known a couple women who had an abortion and felt it was all they could do and were glad they had it.

I think a person could find examples on either side.

Appreciate your post.

[Maraya1969]

123. To make one "deposit" into a woman of a fertilized egg is very expensive and time

consuming so what they do is put about 6 eggs and a bunch of sperms in a petri dish and the ones that hook up are the embryos used for the fertilization. Now a person who is pro-life and says that life begins at conception knows that most of these embryos are going to die. That is why when sextuplets are born now is it a big ting, (or not a big thing as time goes by)

There are many grey areas in the pro-life pro-choice debate. It is hard to pick a side.

[Stevepol]

124. Thx. Good point

I was just focused on the issue of aborting after the baby has begun forming in the fetus.

You're right there are many gray areas. And that's another reason that people on both sides need to step back and calm down and look at things with reason instead of muddying the waters with so much excess emotion. Doubt that will happen tho.

[Karenina]

117. In a perfect world this topic would be of interest only to

the woman involved, her medical professionals and anyone else she voluntarily includes in the discussion.

[ensho]

134. true

nt

[madfloridian]

4. You think government has a right to regulate a woman's body?

Is that what you are saying?

[ristruck]

11. No...

I just do not think it is insane if a person believes an unborn child is a human being. That is all. I understand all the points. I am not stupid. I just reacted to what I see as over the top rhetoric. I should have know better. Note to self...Do not argue abortion on this board!!! lol

[madfloridian]

12. I 100% support a woman's right to make her choices about her body.

Very few Democrats support that right now. The right wing and the religious extremists have used women as a wedge issue for years....until even thinking she and her doctor can decide issues without judicial oversight is pooh poohed.

Kind of amazing how it happened.

[timtom]

17. Watch it.

There is no measured discourse on certain topics. Any attempt to look at the rational side will immediately be descended upon by triggered emotional responses.

Not a nice picture. Sorry.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Unlike the unemotional responses we'd see here if men lost their reproductive freedom of choice, eh?

Silly women, getting all upset because religious troglodytes think they have the right to control their wombs...

[timtom]

20. ristruck was by no means suggesting you losing you rights to

make a decision. ristruck was merely shocked at the quickness to judge as "insane" or "ill-informed" a point of view that differed from yours (which certainly can be the only "correct" one.

What is so obvious is that there is NO discussion allowed -- only a perception that a person with an opposing viewpoint (which does NOT deny or attempt to deny anyone's rights) as insane.

Now, THAT's insane.

[beam me up scottie]

22. I was commenting on how unreasonable it is for a male to classify our responses as "emotional"

when you have almost always enjoyed freedom of choice.

"If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

~Rose F. Kennedy

[exothermic]

74. There seems to actually be quite a bit of discussion. Right now, in fact!

It does however seem that most of us don't think a fetus is a human being, but you and ristruck do...so where is the cutoff point? Is an egg fertilized 3 minutes ago a human being?

[ristruck]

75. 3 minutes after or 3 minutes before

I am not sure.

I am breaking my promise to answer this question. But since you asked....

I start with this premise. I am sure that as it is coming out it is human. I have seen them come out and they sure look human to me. (sort of) Was it not human one second before? I believe that it is. How about 2 seconds? Where is the line drawn? I do not know. I understand that some contreception works to basically abort right after conception in many cases. Do I get all emotional about that? No. What does this mean? Again, I am not sure. Do I get really emotional about partial birth abortion? You bet I do. I know this is not at all completly consistent. Just being honest.

Do I have it all figured out? Nope. Do I think I should impose my views about a first trimester aboortion on others? Nope. Do I think we should allow people to abort babies one second before birth. No I do not.

Just answering. I respect your view and your question.

[exothermic]

81. I appreciate your candor and I understand that it is difficult to reconcile some things a person

feels, or feels a "need" to feel, as it were. I think your reply was mostly addressing the moments just before or after birth...I was more interested in the moments surrounding the fertilization of a human egg and whether you considered that a significant time - I realize many people do. Some also think "every sperm is sacred" and you will see jocular references to that phrase here from time to time. Regardless, it's a tough question for many of us - I don't speak for others but my own belief is that giving full authority to the pregnant woman is the only sensible approach. :D

[defendandprotect]

92. Ah, ha . . . a clue ...

Yes, good of you to admit to your uncertainty in regard to WHEN a potential life becomes "life."

But you've given us a clue to your "emotions" in this regard ---

and it seems to be based on the propaganda of "partial truth abortion."

And, VERY GLAD that you have been honest here.

Please try to give some thought to the reality that there is no "partial birth abortion" without

a FEMALE being involved --- picture it. No female becomes pregnant in order to abortion a

pregnancy in the final stages. It is highly dangerous to her health and well-being.

Only a male would presume that a female wants the fun of being pregnant for 7 months only to

"dump a child" at the very last moments---!!!

What an insult to females for anyone to believe such a thing!


These late term pregnancies -- despite what the propaganda of the "right to lifers" -- are

performed to deal with problem pregnancies. I'd suggest that you try to follow up on the

stories of women who have had these pregancies. These are all wanted pregnancies.

However, very serious things can and do go wrong. ONLY in a small number of cases.

About one in every county of every state every year. Very few considering the huge

populations which the patriarchy puts to death every year in numberous ways from wars to

execution chambers!

So -- find out more about the reasons for these abortions ---

and pay more attention to who really is killing people all over the world . . .

it looks like men, to me ... !!!

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

127. Your post kicks SO much ass it isn't even funny.

:yourock:

[Mad_Dem_X]

129. I wish I could recommend this post.

:applause: :applause: :applause:

THANK YOU!

[ismnotwasm]

113. Look

A fetus is human tissue. Human DNA. That's not in question, and never was. I have every right, every MORAL right to rid myself of that human life living parasitically in my body if I don't want it there. And I will. And I'll work hard to make sure every woman who chooses has that option, no matter what the fucking law is

Emotional? Only when I see the results of denying basic a human right to women. They're far uglier than any bloody fetus picture you can stick on a billboard.

[dolo amber]

115. I like this post a whole, whole lot

:patriot:

[beam me up scottie]

121. ditto!!!

:applause:

[blondie58]

131. now you do know that partial birth abortion is not a medical term

but rather a political term, don't you?

[defendandprotect]

139. It's been relabeled . . . It's now PARTIAL TRUTH ABORTION . . .

[fudge stripe cookays]

132. Partial Birth Abortion is a lie...

concocted by the right to get you more emotional and more angry at women, and think that we're all sluts who wait until the last minute because we think we can, and no one will care.

Any woman who keeps a pregnancy that long WANTS THAT KID. Most women are smart enough to know that abortions that late are dangerous to them, and dangerous to the fetus they carry.

Let me share some stories with you: (from Gloria Feldt's "The War on Choice")

"We were awaiting the arrival of a son. I'm diabetic, so I had more prenatal testing than most women. At twenty-five weeks, I had an ultrasound and the doctor's exact words were, 'Vick, you are disgustingly normal and so is the baby.' At thirty two weeks, I went in for another ultrasound, and my world came crashing down. They discovered that had not grown past twenty five weeks, and further testing revealed that he had nine major anomalies, including a fluid-filled cranium with no brain tissue at all. He could never have survived outside my womb. My body was the only thing keeping him alive, and I chose to remove my son from life support. I'm a mom. I had three beautiful children, and in fact I have a new baby boy who's here with me now. Who are the people on the anti-choice side to judge me? They've never been in my shoes. I never in my wildest dreams thought something like this could happen, but it happened to me."
Vicki Stella, who in 1996 had an abortion that is now banned under the PBA law

"I am not atypical-- thirty four years old and desperately wanting to have children. Tom and I have been married for four years, and trying to have a baby for two. After successfully fighting hormone-related infertility and experiencing the sadness of miscarriage, we weere thrilled to find ourselves pregnant. But at thirteen weeks, tests revealed the fetus had brain abnormalities and trisomy thirteen . Most fetuses with trisomy thirteen die in utero; of those that make it to birth, almost half do not survive past the first month. Long term survival is one year, and theirs is a painful existence marked by periods of breathing cessatin and seizures. We discussed our options with a genetic counselor. My husband and I felt strongly that it was both the child's and our best interest to terminate as quickly as possible. The counselor said we could either have a D & E or have labor induced. My doctor described both procedures and we decided that a D & E was clearly best for me. The procedure was performed on the first day of my sixteenth week of pregnancy.

Upon arriving home from the hospital, a news story appeared describing legislation aimed at banning "partial birth abortion." I don't think I really understood this issue emotionally or intelectually until I was in the position of having to terminate my much-desired pregnancy. Along with my sadness came the realization that if such legislation passed, the right to safe second-trimester termination of pregnancies might not remain available to those women who come after me. I don't know how those women will endure; I don't know how I would have endured."
Audrey Eisen, testimony in opposition to the abortion-ban legislation

As a woman who has chosen BOTH routes, abortion AND pregnancy (which ended in miscarriage), I will tell you that if I had to choose again, I would choose abortion. It was FAR LESS PAINFUL. And would still be no one's business but my own.


* Quoted from the War on Choice by Gloria Feldt
Copyright 2004, Planned Parenthood Federation of America

[timtom]

106. "most of us don't think a fetus is a human being, but you and ristruck do"

And just where did I say that????

See what I mean about not reading closely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gestalt_therapy

Link tells the story better than I could

[ensho]

135. personhood begins when the birthed baby breathes air and lives

its that breath of air that launches a life.

[defendandprotect]

91. Let me point out to you again . . . the term "insane" was introduced by ristruck . . .

and I replied that I could agree that it is an "unbalanced" view ---

because so much else has to be ignored to arrive there.

I think many of us here would be happy to have a discussion on this ---

[timtom]

109. Correction: the original post introduced the term insane

"women find way to outwit the religiously insane - re: abortion"

ristruck merely asked that, if he did not believe in abortion, did that make him "insane".

You replied, "Pretty much..." and that, in your opinion, it is an unbalanced view.

ristruck's subsequent point was that there is extreme rhetoric on both sides of the issue. Everybody seemed to dogpile on him with wild accusations of his wanting to regulate women's uteruses and other atrocities. ristruck made it quite clear that he was speaking for himself.

And I made nothing quite clear about my beliefs, and yet you included me in the assertion that I believe the same as ristruck. There is absolutely no textual evidence of that.

And my "beef", as one pundit put it, is the inability to be objective in a discussion. It matters not what the discussion is. That has no bearing on my point. My point is one of piss poor communication and sentence parsing skills.

[defendandprotect]

114. It was repeated in ristuk's question . . . that is how he posed HIS question . . .

whatever the original post . . . again, it is how ristuk posed his question.

Additionally, the original post connects the "insanity" to religous intolerance in

regard to reproductive freedom.

[CTyankee]

100. Well, you and ristruck are here discussing it. What's your beef?

[timtom]

110. See post #109, above

My beef is about sloppy discourse. It is NOT "abortion: right or wrong?"

[CTyankee]

142. Well, you are discussing that too. No one is shutting you down.

You are here, free to air your grievances about "sloppy discourse" and anything else on this subject that you see fit to write about. Others are here, free to air their own views...

[Lars39]

21. I want to decide if and when men can have vasectomies.

Or when they *should* be reversed. Or even if they are eligible to buy condoms. Not married? No condoms for you. /sarcasm

[beam me up scottie]

24. Amazing how that goes sailing right over their heads, eh?

What's all the fuss about? :sarcasm:

[awoke_in_2003]

47. Not over mine.

I agree, I won't tell you what to do with your womb and you won't tell me what to do with my nuts (we will leave that to Jesse Jackson :))

[beam me up scottie]

49. ROFL!!!

Agreed! :D

[mrreowwr_kittty]

32. Nothing insane about that point of view. Nothing at all.

While we're at it, let's mandate that men MUST donate their kidney to someone who needs it if they happen to be a match. Oh, and men should have to give blood and bone marrow to preserve the lives of others, whenever I say so. It's "pro-life", you know. And how dare you accuse me of having an insane point of view!

[defendandprotect]

93. Notice how quickly VIAGRA rolled into view . . .

Males are having quite some difficulties in reproducing ---

these are MOST of the problems which the infertility clinics deal with ---

low sperm counts. NATURE is reducing the male ability to reproduce.

Anyone see a message here?

[ensho]

136. male sperm is singing like a canary

it is true that male sperm count is down, plus healthy sperm are down.

toxins, pollution, etc.

and the hormones found in everything nowadays. maybe sperm want to turn into ova.

[defendandprotect]

140. Love the post --- !!!

Can't get ova you!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

42. Stop calling them troglodytes! That's mean!

You're just being one of them emotional wimmenz, not letting these poor widdle menz dominate the discussion like the Good Lord intended. ;)

[beam me up scottie]

46. C'mon, it'll do 'em some good to look it up.

Not to mention another excuse to call us "uppity"! :evilgrin:

[ristruck]

19. Thanks

I am learning that the hard way.

[timtom]

23. Please note some of the really lame and presumptuous

replies following yours. People don't know how to flipping READ!! One person, for example, believes that you consider her/him a brood mare and that you wish to invade her/his uterus. And that from someone who chooses not to reveal her/his gender??!!??

[ristruck]

29. Debate/Discussion/Growth

I find threads like this interesting. I have learned more from people like you over the years. I am lucky. I have a co-worker who over the last 5-6 years that has allowed me to ask questions, disagree and debate, discuss the issues, and repeat the cycle. I must admit that this co-worker, who is a female, has convinced me to change many of my political views over these last 6 years.

I have become more aware and in tune with opposing views through these discussions. At no time did she ever make me feel like I was an idiot, insane, or evil because I differed with her. I like to discuss and debate. I enjoy intelligent discourse. I do know that I hit a hot button here. I get that part.

I just wanted to say I appreciate people like my fellow co-worker who has helped me grow as a person. I can honestly say that these healthy discussions led to my now being a fully committed Democrat. (Much to the chagrin of some of my friends). That is good for me and good for the country.

What is the point? What is more effective? Rantings or what my co-worker did for me?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Gosh, people are so mean aren't they?

All you want to do is butt into women's personal reproductive decisions and some people call you names because of it! Imagine! :eyes:

[ristruck]

44. Show me where I said I wanted to do this

I have been very respectful the entire time. NOW I AM PISSED. I NEVER SAID I WANTED TO DO ANY THING TO ANY WOMAN. ALL I EVER SAID was "I believe an unborn child is a human being" That is it!!! GEES. You guys are flippin crazy. I already said I will not do this again. My God....This is downright scary.

I simply was dumb enough to ask for clarification. Did he think I was insane because I think an unborn child is human? That is what I asked. Gees people.

Show me ONE TIME where I suggested that we invade your uterus. Show me!! YOU CANNOT.

People like you are %&((#'s

Self Righteous....That is what I am seeing. Good grief.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

50. What you did was take personal offense to the OP

If you are not the type of person the OP is referring to as "religiously insane", then it's not about you, is it? But you got real offended so it's only natural that people would conclude that you share those views. Particularly when you opine about the humanity of zygotes.

[ristruck]

53. Not so

I asked a question.

Read the freaking post. Use logic and get the facts. THIS IS MY LAST POST ON THIS.

1. I asked a question not related to the government issue. I asked if he thought people like me, who believe unborn children are human, are insane.
2. He said yes.
3. I opined. Shame on me.
4. All hell broke loose.
5. I get called every name in the book.
6. I basically apologize for creating this firestorm.
7. I get more insults
8. I finally get pissed.

NOW I AM DONE WITH THIS.

Some of you really make me wonder....

[defendandprotect]

98. Ah . . . even a little nastier here . . .

come back when you're really read for discussion and honest debate.

[defendandprotect]

101. First . . . I am not a "he" . . .

Secondly . . .

I made a perfectly clear reply to you . . .

and you ignored what I proposed ---

Try replying to the questions inherent in my comments ---


it's, IMO, an unbalanced view.

It's kind of archaically patriarchal ---

and often is based in religious teachings, which themselves show utter disrespect for females.



Further, I've given you other explanations which you also seem to be ignoring --

[awoke_in_2003]

51. Not attacking

just pointing the obvious out- Reread what the poster said. They are not attacking people who believe a fetus is a human being, but those who try to prevent a woman from making a choice about her body.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

56. Thank you. It's really not that hard to figure out.

The OP was about countries who impose religious views about reproduction on their female citizens.

[beam me up scottie]

57. Um, actually what you said was that you have "a conviction that an unborn baby should not be aborted

That was the trigger.

Nobody is crucifying you over your religious beliefs but when you cross the line and decide you have the right to prevent women from exercising their right to choose you kinda piss us off.

NOBODY thinks abortion is a good thing, NOBODY wants to ever have to make that decision, but it is now and should always be OURS to make.

[Swamp Rat]

62. The key word: "should"

That opens up a can of worms.

[beam me up scottie]

65. SWAMP RAT !!!

Another original, I love it!

How are you?

[Swamp Rat]

69. Way'at beam me up scottie!

Hope you're doin' well. :hug:

I'm ok... busy in school and trying to stay cool in the summer heat.

[beam me up scottie]

77. Good to hear.

:hug:

I'm north of you and I can't bear to go outside on days like today. Dang hair never dries either. :(

[The Magistrate]

116. An Excellent Piece Of Work, Sir

[defendandprotect]

96. Whoa . . . that doesn't look like debating skill . . . it looks like a RANT . . . ????

[cushla_machree]

103. People aren't self righteous

"I believe an unborn child is a human being"

Of course an unborn child is human, what else would it be??

You CAN be pro-choice and also personally believe that abortion is wrong or not the choice you would make. The difference is whether or not you wish to impose your own beliefs onto others. When someone tells me they are pro-life, I instantly feel a flash of bad feelings and anger towards them. Maybe thats just because I am a woman. Because saying you are pro-life usually implies that you wish to impart those beliefs onto others. But I would never assume that if someone is pro-choice, that they automatically would get an abortion.

As a woman, i can tell you that nothing gets me more worked up then abortion. Because its something that is so personal, and i can tell you that anyone who works to control my reproductive rights, I can't tolerate. It hits deep.

[defendandprotect]

94. Let me remind you again . . . YOU used the term "insane" . . .

YOU posed the question in that sense . . .

Come on and discuss this issue . . . just be sure that you don't ignore most of the

debate/discussion in order to hold your opinion.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

35. I'm a woman, nathan hale. An uppity one at that.

I also happen to believe that while you are entitled to have an opinion about my uterus and its contents thereof, you are not entitled to impose it on me. This OP is about countries that do just that, and how women are forced to make end runs around their idiotic, and yes, INSANE reproductive policies. The numbnuts that you are defending here saw fit to lecture the OP about the use of that term, while piously proclaiming his progressive bona fides, as if they made fuck all of a difference about him being a patriarchal asshat.

And now you are stepping in it, with your asinine comments about female DUers being "emotional". Keep it up, genius.

[beam me up scottie]

37. Ya know what's funny is that I didn't need to look at their profiles to know what gender they were.

Feminists are a different matter, DU is full of men who'll fight for our rights.

And full of something else at other times...

[awoke_in_2003]

52. "DU is full of men who'll fight for our rights"

I am one of them.

on edit: I took a US government class 2 years ago at the local Community college. Class of about 30, pretty much half male and half female. When the discussion on Roe v Wade came up, our male professor asked who supported the right of women to make that decision. Me and another male around my age (40) were the only ones who held their hands up. Quite the eye opener. The professor shook his head, then went around the room trying to get people to explain their nonsupport. Really lame answers abounded.

[beam me up scottie]

58. Unreal.

It's like they've never even thought about it...

Oh, and thank you for your support-especially your decision to do so publicly. :)

[awoke_in_2003]

63. No problem

we all should be willing to state what we believe publicly. Another weird moment in that class (which, again was half female) was when the Equal Rights Amendment came up. Not much support there, either. The young ladies of today just don't grasp the struggle the generations of women before them (clear back to Susan B.) went through so they would be treated as equals.

on edit: misspelled publicly.

[beam me up scottie]

67. That's a big pet peeve of mine.

IMHO, minorities have an even bigger obligation to exercise their right to vote.

People died for that right.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. Yes they did

and in my lifetime, too. We moved to Alabama from Ohio in '75 when I was 7 or 8. I couldn't believe the level of hatred. Even though it was against the law (they probably got away with it being a small town) but the city court house had "colored" water fountains. I had to ask my dad what that meant. Luckily I had good (and hippy) parents.

[beam me up scottie]

76. I hear ya. I moved down here five years ago from New England.

I'm still in shock.

It's not that we don't have as many racists in NE, it's just that it's socially unacceptable to so blatant about it.

[awoke_in_2003]

78. New England is beautiful

(god, I miss having a fall season). Would really like to live in the "Live Free or Die" state. I just really cannot stand snow.

[beam me up scottie]

79. Oh, well my home state of Vermont is not for you then.

The coasts of Maine, Rhode Island and Massachusetts have more temperate winters. And you can actually enjoy being outside in the summer.

[awoke_in_2003]

83. Well, if I could find a job in my field

(flight simulation) up there that paid what I made here (adjusted for cost of living) I would be real tempted. After a while the bigots, homophobes, and bible thumpers make my brain hurt.

[timtom]

68. For the record...

nowhere did I make any comment about "female DUers being 'emotional'".

And I swear I have absolutely no opinion about your uterus. None. And I don't even have an opinion on your right to choose. None. And I am against the government's intrusion into ANYTHING!!!

Now, please, learn to read more carefully and objectively.

[madfloridian]

30. Insulting. Of course there are many "measured" posts here.

That is a talking point meant to put down those who stand up for something important.

[beam me up scottie]

34. The next code word they usually use is "hysterical".

Wait for it...

[madfloridian]

38. Or the new one "purists"??

:hi:

[beam me up scottie]

45. Yep, they take a page right out the playbook used by right-wing-nut hate radio jackasses.

"purism" must be the new fundamentalism!

:hi:

[Lyric]

80. Yeah, because it's so fucking unreasonable and unfair to expect

a Democrat to ACT and VOTE like a Democrat.

:sarcasm:

[awoke_in_2003]

55. Don't you use the "mood swings"

meme before the hysterical meme :)

[beam me up scottie]

59. oops. Skipped right over that one.

I'm so emotional I'm getting ahead of myself and just falling apart here...

[awoke_in_2003]

64. Maybe you would feel better

if you baked a cake :) (I hope you know I am being facetious)

[beam me up scottie]

66. Hey thanks! I was gonna scrub the toilet but cake baking is ever so much more fun!

Licking the bowl also becomes an option. :P

[awoke_in_2003]

71. Don't overlook

the good theraputic effects of a good house cleaning.

[ensho]

138. I knew of a male lawyer who told women who came to him for divorce

that if they took a class or two at the local collage they would feel better.

[timtom]

61. Someone asked if, because their personal opinion differed from the prevailing one here at DU

if they were "insane". They did NOT suggest that they sought to change the beliefs of others. Nor, did they judge opposing opinions to theirs as insane.

You didn't "stand up to something important". You joined in on the vilification of ristruck. No discussion. No debate. Just misreading what he had posted and presumed some things he DID NOT say.

If you're insulted, too bad. When you learn to read and parse sentences, then there can be measured discourse.

[defendandprotect]

90. And, please tell . . . "where is the rational side" . . . ???

and where the "emotional" response ---

Is, for instance, "partial birth abortion" an emotional campaign?

[CTyankee]

99. Nathan, based on what you say my advice is: don't have an abortion.

That is all.

[lynettebro440]

41. So when you get pregnant

you can decide to keep the baby. Oh wait, your a man, so i guess it isn't ever going to be a choice for you. But you can sure have your opinion.

[awoke_in_2003]

43. I know a lot of people

that are against abortion, but are not against the woman's right to choose. They choose not to, I can respect that. They stay out of other peoples business. I respect that also.

[krispos42]

60. Believing a fetus is a human being is not insane

What is insane is thinking that such view is religious and as such must become imposed on everybody because it is God's Law. And then making it so by using the legislative process.


Abortion, circumsision, pit bulls, guns, and public breast-feeding are all hot topics. As is cornflake-breaded fried chicken.

Welcome to the madhouse that is DU! :hi:







(And, no, I'm not kidding about the chicken)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

72. OMG, I love that bumper sticker in your sig line.

That is TOO funny! :rofl:

[defendandprotect]

89. Excuse me . . . but YOU introduced the term "insane" . . . in your question.

I returned in my comment suggesting that it is "unbalanced" in the sense that it has

to ignore so much reality.

Further, how is an embryo or a fetus a "child" . . . ?

It is potential life --- just as sperm or an egg is potential life.

Rather . . . yes, come in and argue abortion.

However, I don't see how anything could be more "dogmatic" or "over the top rhetoric" than

Vatican teachings and behavior on the subject of family planning????

Anyone want to vote on that --- ???

[CTyankee]

95. It is your right to believe that a an unborn child is a human being. But it is not your right

to have government impose that belief on those who don't.

If you believe that an unborn child is a human being, you should not have an abortion. Other people believe differently. And yes, some people think that belief is not rational or sane and they have offered the reasons they believe that way. Why are you so dismissive of their beliefs if you complain about theirs?

[mrreowwr_kittty]

5. I am not a brood mare so kindly stay out of my uterus. nt

[notadmblnd]

7. a zygot, embryo, fetus has the potential to become a human beng

until they're born, they are not. Do you curse your god when a woman suffers a miscarriage? The proper medical term for miscarriage is "spontaneous abortion." I for one, am of the opinion that every child brought into this world should be wanted. In the days we live in, with child abuse so rampant, I don't see how some of these poor children who have been abused and tortured by their parents would be any worse off it they had been aborted in the first place. Yes, it's much better to bring them into this world to suffer first before they go out, right?

[uppityperson]

27. Thank you for you nice reply to that poster who voted for bush twice. Here's a picture unborn child

[calimary]

Welcome to DU. It's a WOMAN'S CHOICE.

Catholic mother-of-two here. Both my pregnancies were hard and, if I was pro-choice beforehand (which I WAS), the experience made me even more ARDENTLY pro-choice afterwards. But that's just me. And I wouldn't impose MY choice on you. Being pro-choice does not mean being strictly pro-abortion. It means being pro-CHOICE. You can always choose to carry the pregnancy to term and pro-choicers will never try to stop you. Anti-choicers, on the other hand, are all about telling somebody else what to do, dictating what happens with a pregnancy whether it should be carried through or not. NO ONE in the pro-choice movement EVER believes in dictating to ANY woman that she MUST get an abortion. That's just not what it's about.

WHY DON'T PEOPLE GET THAT??????????

[Guaranteed]

84. Yeah, but the problem is you have to learn to EXPLAIN THE RATIONALE.

You're not going to convince anyone screaming "IT'S A WOMAN'S CHOICE!" over and over.

[spoony]

125. or "your (sic) a man so shut up"

I have found it utterly pointless discussing the issue with anyone because the presence of my genitalia will be immediately be used against me, no matter what I say or how I say it.

[ensho]

10. if you came to this opinion by way of a religion then yes you are relilgiously

insane.

if you came to this opinion without any religious input, then it is just your personal ill informed opinion.

it is not fair to force women to carry an unwanted pregnancy.

[Warpy]

16. Anyone who tries to restrict another person's ownership

of her own body over a RELIGIOUS OPINION is insane.

After all, early abortion was well known and approved of in the OT. Jesus never said a word against it. All the antiabortion people have on their side is one twisted verse about how god knows us in the womb.

If you want to make your religious opinion into law, then yes, you are insane.

After all, antiabortion laws don't stop abortions. They only stop the safe, legal abortions and throw women into the hands of unsafe amateurs.

Anti birth control laws go along with this and nicely increase the number of unsafe, illegal abortions.

Bottom line? Antiabortion laws kill women. Anyone who wants that is insane.

[Mad_Dem_X]

130. "Antiabortion laws kill women. Anyone who wants that is insane."

Well said!

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

25. What you think and what you wish dictated to women are two different things. Are you Pro-Choice?

That's the question. You can have your beliefs, but would you use those beliefs to restrict a woman's right to choose? I am Pro-Choice. If during my childbearing years and if I had an unwanted pregnancy, I might have a problem with my decision but there is no way on this earth that I would interfere with any other woman's decision. Her body, her life.

[timtom]

85. Now this is a measured response.

You didn't make any assumptions. You asked for clarification of intent.

Kudos.

nathan hale

[kestrel91316]

26. If you don't like abortion, then by all means don't ever have one.

We pro-choicers would NEVER presume to force you to have an abortion.

But then don't YOU ever presume to force another woman to bear a child against her wishes. Because, yes, that's insane. Either that or just pure evil.

[we can do it]

31. Fucking Loons Who Can't Mind Their Own Damn Business Is More Like It

[sutz12]

39. The insanity comes when one person forces his/her own "morality" on another..

Holding the opinion (and that's what it is BTW) that abortion is wrong and choosing not to get one is not insanity.

Forcing others to agree by enacting and rigorously enforcing laws to that affect is insanity.

That, BTW, is my opinion, but it is the way of true "freedom."

[awoke_in_2003]

40. No. But someone who wants to impose

their beliefs on others is.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

48. ristruck, I just read your profile and I commend you for the changes you are making

I realize it's a process so I'd just like to let you know that part of being a progressive is realizing that not everything is about YOU. The OP was about countries that oppress women to the extent that they are not allowed to make the most personal of decisions for themselves. Some of these places, like El Salvador, are so god awful that abortions are not even permitted to save the woman's life. So in the grand scheme of things, you feeling hurt and taking it all personal because someone calls the people who do this to women "insane", is a bit out of proportion.

[madfloridian]

54. Our Supreme Court allows that ban now...removed exemption for health of woman.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0419/p01s03-usju.html

"In a 5-to-4 decision announ-ced Wednesday, the high court upheld the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003. The move comes nearly seven years after the Supreme Court declared a similar Nebraska law unconstitutional because it lacked an exception to protect a woman's health.

This time a different lineup of justices upheld a federal version of essentially the same law, even though it does not contain a so-called health exception that would permit the banned abortion procedure when a physician deemed it necessary to safeguard a woman's health.

The decision marks the first time since the landmark abortion precedent Roe v. Wade in 1973 that the nation's highest court has ruled in a way that places considerations of a woman's health as secondary to efforts by the government to restrict abortion procedures performed prior to fetal viability. That shift could embolden antiabortion forces to try to enact more restrictions at the state level."

[LeftyMom]

97. If you think your imaginary friend's ramblings have any relation to the provision of medical care,

than yes, you are batshit insane, and your nuttiness is a danger to women.

[Demeter]

102. It's Insane If You Think You Have a Right to Decide For Anyone But Yourself

[ismnotwasm]

111. Yes n/t

[spoony]

126. Is Obama insane?

[JerseygirlCT]

119. Not unless you think your objection to abortion should mean

anyone but the woman involved is qualified to decide about her pregnancy or termination.

I agree that fewer abortions, because fewer are needed, is a good goal.

But always, always, the only person in each case is the particular woman involved. I can make a choice - but only for me. You must wrestle with your own views and then make your own choice.

It's a medical procedure, and as far as the gov't goes, it should be a medical procedure, not a political football.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

137. yes. i do.

[HockeyMom]

6. As a teenager in the 60s

I lived in a Hispanic neighborhood in NYC. Down the street was a Hispanic religious store, don't remember the Spanish name for them, which besides selling statues of the saints, candles, etc., also sold herbal medicines. I remember one grouping of herbs was for all sort of "feminine aliments". The word around was that one of the herbs for a feminine aliment was taken to cause an early miscarriage. No, they didn't advertise it as such because abortion was still illegal at the time in NY, but everyone knew about it.

Is it really surprising that in today's world of intolerance we are going back to these old methods? I suppose those of us who are older and lived through those times, really should get the word out what happened then.

[defendandprotect]

104. Well, as I commented above, NATURE has always provided women with options . . .

NATURE provided plants which provided birth control - plants which provided ways for women

to interrupt a pregnancy, to create an abortion. And, in fact, even ways for women to

totally and permanently end their fertility whenever they wished to do so.

All of that information -- those plants --- were destroyed by patriarchy.


STILL in some of the tropical areas, women use papaya to end pregnancies.

One of the chemicals in RU486 is based on that plant.


All of this information was taken from women by patriarchy ---

that is pretty much what the attack on "witches" was about -- removing women from

medicine and midwifery. And, "medicine" taken over by males.

Childbirth taken over by males ---

[kiva]

9. Good to know that women who live

in places that don't respect the right to choose still have alternatives.

[beam me up scottie]

13. Exactly, and the "sidewalk terrorists" can't bully them outside of clinics.

They can't terrorize the doctors and clinic staff or even target a local drugstore.

I can't say it enough, I love the internet.

[defendandprotect]

105. Yes, most of the old information has been destroyed by patriarchy . . .

but some of it still exists --- the plants/drugs, of course, have also been destroyed.

RU486 is modeled on one of the plant chemicals --- it keeps the fertilized egg from

embedding in the womb lining.

This is what the final violent onslaught on women was about in large part --

the witchhunts --- to destroy women's wisdom.

To remove women from "medicine" and especially as midwives.

[Crowdance]

28. Women on Web looks like a very worthwhile organization

Here's a link: http://www.womenonweb.org/

They request only a donation for the work they do, and they maintain a Women's Wallet account to provide for those who can't afford even the donation. I wonder what it would take to set up something like that in the US? I think we're going to be needing it the way things look to be going.

[beam me up scottie]

33. Yes it does.

And we need an organization like that in the US now.

I live in the bible belt and spent several extremely desperate hours on the phone and internet trying to find a drugstore that sold Plan B over-the-counter. It was horrible, not even the hospitals would prescribe it.

[JerseygirlCT]

120. But how sad is it that so many women are forced, even with

such great ideas, to risk 11% complications because other people don't find them qualified to make private medical decisions concerning their own bodies?

[pleah]

73. K&R It is nice to know that there are still ways for women to get help.

I hope we can stop the down turn that is taking place in this country on the right to chose.

[Crowdance]

86. kick n/t

[Mad_Dem_X]

128. We will always find a way

If a woman wants badly enough to terminate a pregnancy, no matter the law or what anyone else says, she will find a way to do it. That is what the anti-abortion people do not understand - making something illegal will not stop it from happening. We women will NOT be controlled, especially when it comes to our bodies!

[windoe]

141. Women have had to keep this wisdom secret

less the patriarchy find out and shut them down. These polarized times harken back to another era I shudder to think about.